The no-daichi was never decorative. It's purpose is to cut both the horse and rider with a single blow - that's not a decorative act. It first saw prominence during the first invasion by Kublai Khan during the Minamoto shogunate in the early 13th century. It was always a real use combat weapon.Among the wakizashi, the katana and the nodachi, at the very least the last one should be Exotic, since it was actually far too unwieldy to be used for combat - rather, it was worn as a symbol of status, and made by blacksmiths as a way to show their skill. But lol historical relevance.
Mechanics-wise, it being Exotic would also no longer make it be a no-brainer choice over the katana...
Yes, but it should still be exotic. It required quite a bit of skill to use, was not a normal battlefield weapon, and it wasn't very useful for anything other than it's specific purpose. That should be the definition of Exotic.
i think the simple/martial/exotic distinction should be removed entirely. all it does is restrict weapons to specific archtypes.
And this I am completely in favor of weapons that are exotic except to specific archetypes. A Celtic warrior archetype should get falcata as martial instead of exotic, while it should remain exotic for everyone else. Same is and should be true for samurai/ninja and specific exotic weapons including katana and wakizashi.
i mean a western character can already wear eastern armor if they have the appropriate proficiency. why can't a western character wield eastern weapons? is it to preserve the aesthetic desire for Katanas to be a superior weapon? what about the eastern classes? do we really need a seperate class for the Geisha when a bard works just fine? do we need a seperate class for the samurai when the fighter works just fine?
I don't think eastern armor and weapons are superior, just that certain eastern weapon fighting styles are more difficult to wield or wear, thus are exotic due to the nature of the weapons.
It's not that I don't think western characters cannot wear eastern armor nor bear eastern weapons, rather I don't think it would be available outside of their originating sources. At no time in feudal history was there a Japanese armorsmith or swordsmith outside of Japan. And since Japan was a closed state for much of it's history, it would make all eastern armors and weapons (especially Japanese based ones) as non-existent outside of their specific settings.
Its not that a western knight or pirate couldn't wield a katana, rather they would never have access to one. If there's an exception it can only be a handful of items outside the setting.
The Geisha is not a separate class from a bard, she is a bard with a specific archetype, at least in PFRPG.
The samurai class fits the concept better than the fighter. Without building a better fighter, the samurai class has specific benefits and detriments that standard fighters shouldn't have, thus a separate class is justified. Besides a truly Japan based setting should have fighters as well, as Japan did, but as members of the Commoner caste, and somewhat limited in access to weapons and armor due to society rules. There's a place for both classes in a Japan setting.
if one really wants to differentiate proficiencies by ethnic background. just come up with variant weapon packages for specific classes to represent these ethnic differences.
Perhaps not for PFRPG RAW, rather for Rite Publishing's Kaidan RAW, the varying class archetypes are built with specific weapon packages in mind. And though it's not officially mentioned. Not only would a standard western bastard sword be exotic to an oriental character, they would not be available to them, just as katana would not be available to combatants outside Kaidan.
At the same time, most non-samurai warriors in Kaidan consider katana and wakizashi as exotic weapons. Only to a samurai and the few specific classes that are exceptions to this. To an ashigaru fighter, monks, and most other Kaidan based classes - those weapons are still exotic, and should rightly remain that way.
Yes, but it should still be exotic. It required quite a bit of skill to use, was not a normal battlefield weapon, and it wasn't very useful for anything other than it's specific purpose. That should be the definition of Exotic.
I completely agree, no-daichi should be considered exotic.
The rules created for the Kaidan setting have for the most part been an effort not to counter what Paizo has done - I don't want to reinvent the samurai, that Paizo has already created a class for - rather I expand the rules to apply specific builds based on Japanese history. Since Paizo states that no-daichi is not exotic, I won't argue against that in a supplement - even though I don't really agree with that point of view.
It is hard to be clear on "Japanese Culture" anyway, given that it is kind of long and changes a lot with time. Next time I run a Japanese game, I'm setting it at the beginning of the feudal system, back when power was concentrated in the capitol before the samurai had as much power, but were gaining.
Actually it kind of is easy to be clear on "Japanese culture", especially since one of the constants of Japanese culture is maintaining the status quo, both technologically and socially.
While some armors were improved in the 800 years of samurai history of Japan, and the arquebus was introduced by the Portuguese around 1520, most weaponry stayed the same from at least 1000 AD to 1858. Consider that the arquebus was still being used by the samurai when Perry forced Japan to open it's borders in 1858. Despite being part of the Japanese armories for 300 years, the arquebus was never improved upon by the Japanese.
The no-daicho which was hardly used after the early feudal period was never replaced with an upgraded 2-handed large weapon. The katana and wakizashi were defined by 1000 AD and never changed even to this day.
Really you could run a no magic samurai combat encounter and it could be placed at 1000 AD, 1500 AD or 1858 AD and would look exactly the same in weapons, armor, techniques. Just because active samurai history is 800 years doesn't even compare to the same 800 years passage of time in Europe which consisted of constant upgrades to weapons technology.
The time periods may be the same, but the combat technological differences are apples and oranges - they don't even compare.
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@FallofCamelot
Your own nerdrage is making a faulty assumption. You're assuming the game is based on historical realities. It's not.
One look at the weapons table, armor table, class abilities, basically anything in the rulebook will remove that flawed premise.
Therefore, the game is based off fantasy, and in fantasy, the Katana and Wakizashi better than a longsword and short sword. This is nothing to do with reality, it's to do with fantasy preconceptions. If we're going with fantasy for things like cross-bows, armor, spells, etc, then it is hypocritical to demand historical accuracy for the katana/wakizashi.
Yeah right.
This has far more to do with eastern fanboys demanding special treatment than anything else.
Yeah, I still think they should be masterwork short swords, if a part of the daisho. No need to make them OP, it is just a short blade for close combat.
true.
no REAL reason to make them spectacularly better than a short sword.
make it a short sword, but make short swords pierce or S/P and make the wakazashi slash only. leave the damage at d6 18x2 but make it a one handed weapon and you can take exotic proficiency to make it light.
You can stab with a wak, just as you can use a katana/uchigatana/tachi for stabbing as well. I allow swords to be quite adaptable in the games I run with weaker secondary damages.
Yeah yeah, I know, reality encroaching again, ha ha.
Ano... *raises hand*
By Samurais in fantasy, do you mean Sengoku samurai/battlefield samurai (look at my cool lamellar, my scary helm, my horse, my yari, my sword and bow and all my followers), or duellists/urban samurai in kimonos against the yakuza (near naked gods with swords)?
I appreciate your criticism of swords going through armour like paper, tis' a long problem in film (the plate armour of Gondorian infantry doing nothing) but there are many visions and fantasies concerning samurai, inspired by different periods, different types of samurai (because they started out as horse archers, in armour, if we want to go way back and use that for our samurai fantasy).
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Aren't katanas and wakizashi godly weapons, forget atop impossibly high mountains by ageless weaponsmiths? Aren't their blades able to cut through gods, mountains and forests? Shouldn't that be reflected in game stats, you ignorant Western barbarians?
(in case nobody got the sarcasm, well, this post has some)
Mmm mmm. Truly sharp katanas are actually somewhat fragile blades. They aren't heavy maces, they aren't dull thick broadswords. Use them badly and they can break, use them to try and cut down a forest and its going to be ruined. Now yeah, there are vids around of people who devote their whole lives to using them, and the things they can do (part a metal bar with ease with no consequence for the blade, but with some preparation), but as a weapon and tool yeah Japanese swords are not the toughest blades that ever were. The game should prob reflect this, make them good for what they are meant to do, killing of lightly armed targets, but not flawless or too good.
On being a barbarian, I have a jovial Asian friend who really likes to take the piss out of the Asian myths, Asian martial arts and such-like. That which white fanboys of Japan and the Orient gush over and insist is brilliant. Hilarity ensues.
It is like the whole zombie debate and the katana being the god of zombie-killing tools. It might be a nice blade (plenty of crap out there though), but it requires maintenance and experience in its use, or it will become dull and chipped if used in a terrified haste. A mace is probably more useful and simple for the task (an aside I know, but D&D has zombies!).
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By Samurais in fantasy, do you mean Sengoku samurai/battlefield samurai (look at my cool lamellar, my scary helm, my horse, my yari, my sword and bow and all my followers), or duellists/urban samurai in kimonos against the yakuza (near naked gods with swords)?
Rite Publishing's Way of the Samurai covers all those periods with extensive samurai options to fill them. It depends on what best fits your needs.
Kaidan the setting this was actually designed for is pre-sengoku in development - horse archers. The Yabusame samurai archetype is just that.
For Sengoku Era samurai there are the Nitojutsu Sensei (2 weapons master) samurai archetype is based on Miyamoto Musashi the ronin 2 weapons master. For those edging towards Nobunaga warfare, included is the Teppou Bushi - a samurai and gunslinger archetype.
Edo Period/Tokugawa Era samurai aren't really accomodated well, as we're edging towards modern times, however the Yojimbo ranger archetype is both a bodyguard with iaijutsu combat style as an option that somewhat reflects the dueling style samurai of the Edo period, though could fit just as well in earlier times.
More than that, Way of the Samurai covers many class types to fit different samurai niches: yamabushi are ascetic monk paladins, court wizards skilled in origami spellcasting and feature shikigami familiars comprise the enigmatic Onmyoji.
For those looking for political intrigues at court with courtiers several options are made available - the kuge is an aristocratic samurai with more courtly skills than the typical samurai, while the bugyo prestige class is a samurai with an official appointment to a position of power.
We the developers of Kaidan wanted to create the complete picture of samurai - and we think we accomplished just that.
LOL.
looks like an advertisement.
I kept hearing a deep echoing voice when I read this.
LOL.
looks like an advertisement.
I kept hearing a deep echoing voice when I read this.
My voice isn't that deep. Point to the poster I quoted, the samurai class in UC is very generic, little more than an alternate class description for the cavalier class. It might not necessarily fit into one or more varying specific ideas that you might think fits samurai.
As an Asian American myself, the endless struggle between the fanboy samurai wannabes vs. 'samurai is just a fighter', the reliance on cinema ideas on samurai vs. the truly historic - forced me to want to develop a Japan-based setting that cleaved much closer to the real history, the real culture and authentic legends and folklore. I also did not want to shoe-horn in other oriental settings like Kara-Tur or even Rokugan (with elements of China or SE Asia) does to some degree. Kaidan is a fantasy realm, but it's one based on Japan specifically, not some general oriental ideal. Also in Japan the perspective of the supernatural was not wonder, rather fear and horror, which is why Kaidan is a Japanese horror based setting.
For oriental themed PFRPG you've got the Samurai/Ninja classes in Ultimate Combat, you have the Guides and adventures for Jade Regent, and you have Rite Publishing's Way of the Samurai and the other Kaidan supplements. I'm simply highlighting the latter publication and how it directly relates to discussion in this thread.
Does it sound like an advertisement... maybe, but it's still accurate.
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Right wrong or otherwise BOLD LETTERS are such blatant advertising it makes me laugh at everything else you say.
I mean... now I hear the late night TV advertisement guys when I read
For oriental themed PFRPG you've got the Samurai/Ninja classes in Ultimate Combat (<normal letters and a derogatory tone to you dismiss this option), you have the Guides and adventures for Jade Regent (<a subtle shrug and maybe the image of a person who cant possibly cut a tomato without the SUPER NINJA KNIFE), and you have Rite Publishing's Way of the Samurai and the other Kaidan supplements.(BOLD letters and an echoing voice to convince you that this is the awesome must have product that will fix your life, knock off 50 pounds in a month, cut tomatoes like a laser and save your sex life!)
sorry. not saying the product doesn't work. just distracted by the advertisement ^_^ (of which i am helping by bumping the thread but its still fun and funny)
Fair enough. I didn't mean to imply any derogatory POV regarding Samurai and Jade Regent, (I was even a freelancer who worked on Jade Regent). Just saying options have been made available, based on Paizo classes and options, nothing more.
And Kaidan isn't for everybody - it's a niche within a niche, and only one more point of view. There are many different points of view. No one could suggest there would ever be one solution for anything, I don't.
yea. your right. I am just giving you crap. I know nothing about Rite Publishing and am not saying its in anyway a bad product just messing with you on the voice.
not saying your wrong or anything else derogatory.
Right wrong or otherwise BOLD LETTERS are such blatant advertising it makes me laugh at everything else you say.
I mean... now I hear the late night TV advertisement guys when I read
For oriental themed PFRPG you've got the Samurai/Ninja classes in Ultimate Combat (<normal letters and a derogatory tone to you dismiss this option), you have the Guides and adventures for Jade Regent (<a subtle shrug and maybe the image of a person who cant possibly cut a tomato without the SUPER NINJA KNIFE), and you have Rite Publishing's Way of the Samurai and the other Kaidan supplements.(BOLD letters and an echoing voice to convince you that this is the awesome must have product that will fix your life, knock off 50 pounds in a month, cut tomatoes like a laser and save your sex life!)
sorry. not saying the product doesn't work. just distracted by the advertisement ^_^ (of which i am helping by bumping the thread but its still fun and funny)
Samurai samurai, way of the samurai. I want to be a samurai and follow the way of the samurai.
For samurai and ninja, 3.5 sources work for me. Mess around with them if need be, a gempei samurai might be closer to a fighter (with bow cav feats) and a few levels in aristocrat.
yea. your right. I am just giving you crap. I know nothing about Rite Publishing and am not saying its in anyway a bad product just messing with you on the voice.
not saying your wrong or anything else derogatory.
I'm not Rite Publishing, I am just a freelancer. Kaidan is my setting, yes, but I am more the developer (concept creator) and cartographer, I do some design and writing, but most of that is handled by pros. I give my direction for each archetype, based on my intimate knowledge with Japanese history and folklore, based on my heritage, but writer/designers like Jonathan McAnulty make it work with Pathfinder, not me.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Umm, when I mention a product, I often put hyperlinks to it in the paizo store, (See any post talking about binders.) I don't see it as an issue.
Re: Wakazashi. as statted out it is exotic in the 'better than martial weapons' version. Also, the no-dachi *should* be exotic for the same reason. Hopefully when Pathfinder is revised, they'll give *all* of the weapons the hairy eyeball. It's not "Asian fanboi" it's mechanics. If you want to use the short sword stats for your wakazashi, it shouldn't be an issue for your GM.
A nodachi is just a giant battlefield sword. If you can use a greatsword, why can't you use it as well?
Its Oriental nature makes it clumsy in your doughy western hands. You did not train under a waterfall, you did not ponder the koan of the nodachi. Your barracks sword training and years of swordmanship is not enough. You must truly devote yourself to be able to use it without a -4.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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@3.5 Loyalist.
Snark fail. Again, mechanically it should be exotic, for the reasons I listed here Please check the thread and try again.
Your doughy hands have nothing to do with it.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Just had a thought.
Wakazashi = Exotic. Add "If you are proficient in martial weapons, you may use the Wakazashi as a scimitar."
No-Dachi = Exotic. Add "If you are proficient in marital weapons, you may use the No-Dachi as a Falchion."
Language barrier solved.
For samurai and ninja, 3.5 sources work for me. Mess around with them if need be, a gempei samurai might be closer to a fighter (with bow cav feats) and a few levels in aristocrat.
Eh, I never cared for the precision damage options for 3.5 samurai nor ninja, so 3.5's versions just never sat right for me. When I was looking at creating a samurai before the samurai class was released, I was seriously looking at an alternate to the cavalier class. Since that's what Paizo did, though slightly different way than where I was going, I decided I didn't need to make a different version and was able to settle with Paizo's UC Samurai. All I did was design 4 archetypes for the samurai class.
I think Paizo's direction on samurai is right on. The ninja, because of the reliance of sneak attack does not sit well with me. As Paizo was developing the PF monk, especially with the inclusions of Spider Walk and Cloud Walk, I had expectations and desires for ninja to be a monk based class and not a rogue based one. I was glad to see some kind of Assassinate ability provided - which to me is closer to truth than is precision damage, but am not completely happy with ninja.
Of the Way of the Samurai publication, because I believe the samurai or buke social caste to be more than some katana wielding warrior, I endeavored to include those other classes that I think belong in a samurai class based book. This is the reason I've included a gunslinger, a paladin, a ranger and a wizard, besides for samurai archetypes - because the concept of samurai is greater than any one definition.
A nodachi is just a giant battlefield sword. If you can use a greatsword, why can't you use it as well?
Its Oriental nature makes it clumsy in your doughy western hands. You did not train under a waterfall, you did not ponder the koan of the nodachi. Your barracks sword training and years of swordmanship is not enough. You must truly devote yourself to be able to use it without a -4.
a nodaichi is not historically 'just a giant battlefield sword' but its original use is irrelevant in this case.
the fact that its a d10 weapon with 18x2 crit range deals Pierce or Slash damage AND the added bonus of being braceable is what makes it exotic.
its better than the eleven curved blade which IS an exotic weapon... so why would the Nodachi be martial?
dont get me wrong. I love that its martial, I have 2 characters built around it because its so awesome... but the fact that I find it so awesome that I cant really think of playing any non-bow martial character that does NOT use a nodachi is probably a good indication that it should be exotic.
Just had a thought.
Wakazashi = Exotic. Add "If you are proficient in martial weapons, you may use the Wakazashi as a scimitar."
No-Dachi = Exotic. Add "If you are proficient in marital weapons, you may use the No-Dachi as a Falchion."
Language barrier solved.
nice! Nice! NICE!
I like this alot. Gonna snatch it for my use.
Thanks!
For no dachi, I'd make it a great falchion, and a martial.
d12, 18-20/x2.
But I've been getting rid of a lot of exotics lately, and only making a very few exotic.
Maybe the question is not that much "Why is a Wakazashi exotic?", but more precisely "Why is a exotic weapon called Wakizashi?" ?
Or, why are slightly curved single edged blades exotic?