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Help a witch's slumber is causing real problems at my table


Advice

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I have a player that has slumber. Hes in an encounter with his teammates against a group of goblins. The party level average is 3. He placed slumber on a creature. How would any goblin understand that his associate has been put to sleep, to be a be to take the standard action in order to wake his friend. I cannot continue this game until this is decided. PLEASE HELP! Thanks!

Cheliax

wickedb wrote:
I have a player that has slumber. Hes in an encounter with his teammates against a group of goblins. The party level average is 3. He placed slumber on a creature. How would any goblin understand that his associate has been put to sleep, to be a be to take the standard action in order to wake his friend. I cannot continue this game until this is decided. PLEASE HELP! Thanks!

Perhaps he looks over as an automatic action and sees his friend on the ground, snoring, a little drool coming out of his mouth? And since Grubah the Goblin was not normally narcoleptic, perhaps it seems suspicious?

Shadow Lodge

loud snoring, and his 'buddy' takes joy in kicking him in the ribs as he runs past


goblin not care, goblin say we be goblin you be food......

the moment the goblin hits the floor snoring the asssaciate will understand that its parter in whateverness is asleep and will take appropriate measures for i, which may simply be running away.


anybody can understand that the goblin is asleep because they exhibit all the signs of being asleep.
the action to wake them up isn't all that different from waking up a creature who is 'naturally' sleeping.

so the sequence of events is: you realize your buddy mysteriously fell asleep, possibly you correlate that fact to the enemy witch doing some mumbo-jumbo just before your buddy dropped, in either case you can chose to try to wake up your buddy if you want to - whether or not you suspect supernatural cause for the sleep is irrelevant to the action of trying to wake them up.

given that the game is set in a world where magic is semi-normal, you can't really know whether or not they are permanently sleeping or can be awoken by normal means, but that isn't really different than a normal person who has gone into a non-magical coma: you find out by trying.


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Note: Goblins do not have penalties to intelligence or wisdom.


This post has to be a comedy one right?


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Well, it is funny, but very true.


Quandary wrote:

anybody can understand that the goblin is asleep because they exhibit all the signs of being asleep.

the action to wake them up isn't all that different from waking up a creature who is 'naturally' sleeping.

so the sequence of events is: you realize your buddy mysteriously fell asleep, possibly you correlate that fact to the enemy witch doing some mumbo-jumbo just before your buddy dropped, in either case you can chose to try to wake up your buddy if you want to - whether or not you suspect supernatural cause for the sleep is irrelevant to the action of trying to wake them up.

given that the game is set in a world where magic is semi-normal, you can't really know whether or not they are permanently sleeping or can be awoken by normal means, but that isn't really different than a normal person who has gone into a non-magical coma: you find out by trying.

No, they do not exhibit all the signs of being asleep, they are put into a "deep magical sleep", it does not say that they exhibit any normal signs of sleeping. For all intents and purposes, you can say they just look unconscious. Since it is supernatural, you couldn't even do a spell craft check to figure out what it is.


Shifty wrote:
This post has to be a comedy one right?

Why would it be? It seems like a legitimate concern given that there are no rules for sleeping.

Sczarni

Note: deep magical sleep… not trance, waking coma, standing paralysis.... sleep.


What you mean the sleep spell has pretty much been in existence for night on 30 years, but the Slumber hex that does basically the same thing is now presenting a conundrum?

Goblin sees friend fall down (slumber) vs seeing a bunch of friends fall down (sleep).

Goblin might decide to check on his friend(s) or equally might advance (or flee if morale gets too low).


Absynthe001 wrote:
No, they do not exhibit all the signs of being asleep, they are put into a "deep magical sleep", it does not say that they exhibit any normal signs of sleeping. For all intents and purposes, you can say they just look unconscious. Since it is supernatural, you couldn't even do a spell craft check to figure out what it is.

This feel like a comedy post, It doesn't say they don't exhibit all the signs of being asleep. It says they go into a Deep Slumber so I would assume they still snore and drool unless you can find otherwise.

If your party is running through your goblin's than maybe it's time you put them up against a challenge Goblins for level 3 are not a challenge they are filler monsters. Slumber shouldn't be so much of a problem that it's putting your game at risk. It's not game breaking it's just the sleep spell kinda.


goblin tries to rob sleeping goblin as he's an easier target, sleeping goblin wakes up by this, they realize PCs and either fight or flee.

But yes, the witch has a very good chance to take out 2 goblins per round, one who sleeps, the other who tries to wake him up.


Hey just a heads up its not a troll post. this is a real post, and my players are truly arguing that the slumber hex does not say anything about snoring or any indications of sleep.


3 people marked this as a favorite.

If I were a goblin, and my friend inexplicably fell on the ground, and now I have to do his work for him, my first reaction would be to kick him and tell him to get his lazy ass up.

Qadira

Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion, Maps, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
wickedb wrote:
Hey just a heads up its not a troll post. this is a real post, and my players are truly arguing that the slumber hex does not say anything about snoring or any indications of sleep.
PRD wrote:
Slumber (Su): A witch can cause a creature within 30 feet to fall into a deep, magical sleep, as per the spell sleep. The creature receives a Will save to negate the effect. If the save fails, the creature falls asleep for a number of rounds equal to the witch’s level. This hex can affect a creature of any HD. The creature will not wake due to noise or light, but others can rouse it with a standard action. This hex ends immediately if the creature takes damage. Whether or not the save is successful, a creature cannot be the target of this hex again for 1 day.

Neither the slumber hex nor the sleep spell say that the target does not exhibit normal signs of sleeping. The rules do not specify either way. That means is up to you, the GM, to decide how it works. It is not up to your players.

Alternately, use this against them. Put them up against a Witch of your own. When they go to try and wake their sleeping buddy, tell them they think he's unconscious, not sleeping and that no amount of shaking him to wake him is likely to work. If they counter that they've seen witches' hexes and know that he's probably just asleep, you can let them have it... And the next time they pull the same stunt, you just explain that the tribal shaman for the goblins they're fighting is also a witch, so they're all familiar with the effects of the slumber hex as well... You can keep playing this merry-go-round with anything they come up with.

It's YOUR WORLD. You are the GM. You are there to provide a fun play experience, not to let your players walk all over you.

Dammit, just thow some bad guys that are immune to sleep at them and then pound them.


Could check the mighty DVD of dragons of auntumn wotsit to see if the goblins in that, that raistlin sleeps snore!!

if their is a shaman/adept in the goblin group he will have briefed on the nasty tricks adventurers pull on his poor race

it is more than a semi-magic world, it could possibley run on it so i figure any race of evil humanoids are pretty aware of whats out there or there will not have survived

in a world of 400 gods, that are real, and endless 0 levels this is not a grim and gritty game. magic is everywhere


One guy is lying on the ground in a deep sleep or slumber, and the guy next to him is unconscious. How do you tell the difference between them in under a couple of seconds?

Similarly, why would the sleeping guy be snoring? Not that many people actually snore...

Now in the same limited timeframe, a couple of seconds AT MOST can you now twll me if the third guy is actually sleeping, unconscious (how is that different from being asleep anyway?) or is he actually dead?

Either way, a round is six seconds, they either spend a few seconds checking on their friend or they run to the enemy to engage. Depends on how under threat they feel.

Can't see how this sort of ruling would be a game stopper though.


he's asleep. How many people do you know that stop mid movement falling asleep and manage to balance? He's gonna fall flat on his face I don't think he's trained in balancing while sleeping standing up.


maouse wrote:
Note: deep magical sleep… not trance, waking coma, standing paralysis.... sleep.

2nded. If you are put 'magically on fire' I'm just going to assume the developers imply you look an awful like you're on mundane fire. Maybe it's a different color, but the effect is obvious.

Likewise, if you are magically turned to stone, you'll look a lot like you're petrified via slow geological processes. Etc.

So the guy falls over sleeping. A mostly limp body, perhaps snoring, and if we're going with goblin comedics, probably sucking his thumb.

Goblins, being intelligent, will notice, and if convenient, yes probably kick him awake.


True as well.

If the Goblins were charging in then all they see is one go limp and hit the ground. After a bit of observation the other Goblins might notice signs of sleeping, but the sleeper will only be napping for eighteen seconds, thats not a lot of time.


Hello all I am the original poster, I was borrowing my girlfriends account. Let me make this clear. We have been at this table for over 3 years. I'm not trying to gimp my witches hex, or cause a tpk... I'm trying to create a fun encounter, but we are stickklers for the rules. We made a house ruling that worked for the moment, but I'm not entirely satisfied with to get past this. The spell does not show any descriptors as being obviously asleep, and if my party of goblins does not have any form of spelllcraft/ knowledge arcana, then how would the goblins have a clue as to what happened to their friend? What action is required from any other fighter or cleric goblin to help his rogue goblin pal. I know its a standard action to wake him, but how does he know he's asleep in the first place?


The witch still has to take a standard action to use the ability so it is not hard to figure out that the witch is the source of the problem. If the creature is sleep then they are sleep. Unless it tells you how magical sleep is different than regular sleep then I don't see why it would be assumed to work differently. Goblins being chaotic, but not stupid would probably kick him, and tell him to get up.

The rules are not written in legalese. When the rules have a different definition of a word than one out dictionary uses it is normally called out as such. Sleep does not have a different definition so it defaults to common english.


Well, as others have said I think that unless otherwise noted, when a condition is inflicted upon you, you look like that condition has been inflicted on you. When someone is stunned, you can see it, when someone is paralysed, you can see it, when someone is nauseated... etc. Why should it be any different for sleep - even if it is magical sleep? If the hex explicitly said that it made you appear unconscious it would be different, but it doesn't.
The goblins don't need spellcraft, they just need so have seen a sleeping person sometime before, which is pretty easy to accomplish.

And to be honest, sleep hex is already a very powerful hex - no need to make it even more powerful by making its effects impossible/difficult to note.


Butt how would sleep be different to say unconcious? How would he know to take the standard action to wake him? Or is it just inheritly obvious that the creature is asleep. Also id like to note as a supernatural ability the witch makes no gestures, to cause the hex to go off, so thusly the goblins had no clue why the party kept passing out. They knew it was the party of pcs but not which one. How would they know it was the witch casting a hex?


I think its a pretty standard thing to do when you see a friend collapse to the ground to shake them and try to get them to respond regardless of the circumstances.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

You are going to hate it when you find out that there aren't any rules for being dead. You are more limited by the rules when you are dying.

The goblins don't need to know any of the crap you ask about. If their buddy falls asleep, they don't need to 'know to take a standard action'. The standard action is the same as the one the goblin takes every day when his buddy sleeps in. A swift kick to the ribs, a gentle shake, a shouted "WAKE UP" in the poor schmuck's ear...it doesn't matter who cast the hex or spell. Nothing matters except that the goblin was awake and now he's asleep. That's the only thing you need to notice to be able to wake someone up.

As for the difference between sleeping and being unconscious, that doesn't matter either...assuming they didn't figure that the massive axe wound to the chest was causing the complications, there is nothing wrong with someone taking a standard action to try and revive an unconscious person. It might be a wasted action, but oh well.


I am not saying he knows it is a standard action to wake him. Actions are not terms used in the game world. He would know that his buddy is sleep though. If my friends suddenly went to sleep the natural reaction would be to shake them. At least that is what I did in in the military to keep other people awake when there were not supposed to be sleeping.


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Seriously, a "hey, get up you idiot" from a fellow goblin is not something that should be over analyzed. It actually does not matter if the unconscious ally is sleep-like or not so sleep-like in his unconsciousness. If the newly awakened goblin states it was a weird all of sudden happening, well, now they know something is up.


Next time a goblin gets hexed have him fall asleep standing up, and than a few goblins are going to wonder why did he stop charging he'll be recognized as sleeping and they will kick him awake.

If your player's find that unfair tell them to find you the section that says Deep Slumber means you have to fall down, because you can't find the section where Deep Slumber means you don't snore. Remind them that snoring, movements in sleep and kicking your leg like a dog are all role-playing effects, and if you want to give them that inch than take your foot back.


As above, the Goblin isn't 'spending the round trying to wake up the sleeping Goblin', he is kicking his friend in the foot and trying to see whats wrong with him. By checking whats wrong, the jostling and bumping is the 'standard action' that rouses him.

The question you really need to answer is would the Goblin be safe to check on his friend or not. If the Goblin is not being directly attacked then he might or might not.

If hes alseep or unconscious he will wake up from the curious prodding and rousing.


I'd say, really, the easiest way without having to house rule it, is to have

A) another goblin in the encounter to offset the sleeping goblin in future engagements. ("Hey, those &#&$#&$$ Adventurers keep putting mojo on grottooth, send more lads!)

or B) have the nearest goblin put the boot to his unconscious mate. roll the attack and everything, make it legit. nonlethal damage is still damage and ends the effects of the slumber hex.

Or, by level 3, maybe send a goblin adept or witch to lead the goblin warparties, to give the lads some proper mojo. The added Spellcraft could be easily used to discern the hex, and orders quickly shouted to cuff the offending goblin soundly 'round the ears.


This group in question wants the book to hold there hand, and tell them how sleeping works. Essentially they want the book to tell them if there characters snore when they sleep regularly or magically. I'd of looked at each one of these people, and said a few things and than proceed to have the goblin snore.

I'm still shocked and amazed that this isn't a joke post, and I have to question your group as a whole even DM for just saying "you really think people don't snore in a sleep or deep sleep" after reading this. Just do the above and it'll be funny.

Edit: tell your player's you'll decide what noises your monster make when they sleep either snoring or asking for there mommy, and they can decide if there characters snore.

Shadow Lodge

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Zolthux wrote:
Why would it be? It seems like a legitimate concern given that there are no rules for sleeping.

There's really no rules for what you can and cannot do when you have the "Dead" status, but some things are so blatantly obvious that the developers try not to insult the readers by spelling it out for them.


It seems the argument here is one of semantics. The larger picture I see is a player arguing to have the witch hex be more powerful than it is, and the GM looking to deeply at the details.

Just say ok, goblin is asleep, two more come around the corner and join the encounter. Sooner or later, the witch is going to either apply the hex ineffectively (by trying to abuse it) or realize that It's not worth having to argue what removes a standard action and two rounds from two monsters.

I can easily see a goblin being malicious enough to kick it's cohort while passing to engage the enemy. perhaps if you tell the story of it rather than stick on the mechanics, the players would be more accepting.


Shifty wrote:

One guy is lying on the ground in a deep sleep or slumber, and the guy next to him is unconscious. How do you tell the difference between them in under a couple of seconds?

This.

Even paramedics finding a drunk guy on the paveway often have to doublecheck to see if he is just sleeping or unconcious.
So why should the next guy (whether goblin or bandit or commoner) be able to tell the difference at first glance?

And as someone sleeping by magical means doesn't wake up by loud noices I guess it has more similarity to drunken slumber than normal restful sleep.

Shadow Lodge

Goblin A falls asleep. Goblin b pokes him in the rump with a spear.


Umbranus wrote:
Shifty wrote:

One guy is lying on the ground in a deep sleep or slumber, and the guy next to him is unconscious. How do you tell the difference between them in under a couple of seconds?

This.

Even paramedics finding a drunk guy on the paveway often have to doublecheck to see if he is just sleeping or unconcious.
So why should the next guy (whether goblin or bandit or commoner) be able to tell the difference at first glance?

And as someone sleeping by magical means doesn't wake up by loud noices I guess it has more similarity to drunken slumber than normal restful sleep.

The untrained person will take the same approach to trying to rouse them though.


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I'm just saying, if I was a goblin and some chick with crazy fingernails and long hair stared so hard at my friend that he looked like he died then I wouldn't be sticking around for a standard action to make sure.

Shadow Lodge

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The untrained person will take the same approach to trying to rouse them though.

But an untrained goblin will likely set them on fire. If they get up and run to the river they're fine. If they just lie there then something's wrong

Cheliax

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Dude, you're the GM, don't make posts on forums mid-session to get past a rules problem. Know why? Cuz you're the GM, and your interpretation of the rules is the LAW. Plus you never want to let a rules question halt your game. Make your judgment call and explain to your players politely but firmly that any further discussion will have to wait until after the session, when you will be glad to hear their arguments.

But for real, this is a problem? The goblin falls asleep. What do YOU think happens when someone suddenly falls asleep?


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Answer:

The goblin's allies have no way of knowing the difference between a sleeping and an unconscious friend.

Either way, the affected goblin is helpless.

The only way for them to tell is to try the Aid Another action to attempt to wake their friend.

If it works, he was asleep, if it doesn't, he remains unconscious.

However, they are not required to try.

I'm concerned that the game has stalled as a result of the GM being unable to decide what the NPCs are doing.


Id like to reiterate, I made a house ruling at the moment for the purposes of continuing the game. Every player at my table is well versed in not only the rules, but also the semantics of the game. This is something we have never come across before. I would not have posted if I did not feel as though they might have a legitamate claim. This is about semantics, and many other tables may just wave it off. Our table doesn't. We enjoy playing by the book so that there aren't hurt or angry feelings at the table. We've become better friends and better players, I believe, for it. I would like to add as a player I can punch holes in arguments here for example. The spell sleep states neither lights nor loud noises will wake a sleeping character. Although some players may not notice details as such my players do.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Some of my players are pretty extreme on the rules, too. Well done on making a judgement call.

The key to this is the Sleep spell, which defines the overall situation for "magical sleep". The vital points are that a Sleeping creature is Helpless and that there is a single, clearly defined requirement for waking them up (use Aid Another).

Taking strict RAW, there is no discernible difference between a character who is under the effects of Sleep and one who is Unconscious. However, Knowledge (Arcana) has a DC 20+ spell level check to identify a spell that is in place, which is what I would class an ongoing Sleep effect as.

Success means that the creature recognises the Sleep effect, and can reasonably expect to awaken the target of the Sleep effect using Aid Another. Failure means they do not know if the target is asleep or Unconscious and must Aid Another to find out.


someone might have said this, but what about causation and effect?

"Hey, that woman (or man, the iconic is a female) did something, and now Iknuck just fell on his face with his eyes closed."


Sleeping Dragon, mechanically a lot of magic that has affects like sleeping, which pretty much is a total incapacitation, are only balanced by the fact that you can rouse them.

Sounds won't wake them. You will have to get next to them and physically wake them. Goblins, only being comically ignorant, greedy, and malicious, would be totally legit in moving a few spaces to poke Booky with a stick. The goblins could also make Heal checks can also be made to identify if you're dead or just sleeping.

For strategy and logic: Pathfinder doesn't want you to assume all creatures fight until destroyed. For evil, living, but ultimately cowardly things like goblins, most retreat if half their numbers are taken out, or if their hit points drop below a 1/3.


I would rule that the way they go down would alert others as to their condition if anyone else was in view and saw it occur... a sleeping person wont stay in a painful pose, so wont just crumble and stick in the same way as if they were made unconscious or dead. Once on the ground however, a very easy heal check or moderately difficult perception check could be taken to see if they are alive or not (perception would be reactionary, and therefore free the first time someone sees the creature on the ground). They dont have to make one of those checks of course, and can try to rouse an unconscious person any way they see fit... some ways will work and some wont in this case.

Snoring? Really? Are the people who suggested everyone that goes down snores overweight or burdened with terrible sleep apnea??? Snoring is definitely not a default unless a creatures anatomy would cause such (a pug, or other creature with a stunted nasal passage would be a good example, but in those cases you can probably hear them breathing in much the same way when awake).

In battle, if someone goes down with no readily apparent reason to have done so, no visible wounds or negative effects on them, it would be very reasonable for that persons friend or compatriot to quickly kick them to make sure they arent dead.


Oh an (Su) doesn't mean necessarily there are no visual cues, gestures, or what not, just that whatever mechanism doesn't take an overt amount of concentration that it endangers itself.

Figure things like evil eye involves some squinting, cackling involves laughing, and slumber could have whispers or hypnotic hand movements. In short, the origin of almost all magical effects are obvious, while their nature can be uncertain if it's subtle.

You don't need to make a spellcraft check to determine that the wizard just shot a scorching ray at you. The firey death beam will inform you readily.

You would need a check to determine what was happening before it went off- or if a spell fails, what it's actual intent was.

(I have no idea why hexes aren't spell-like... it seems thematically and logically appropriate).


The response to why they are not spelllike is because, and qoute me if I'm wrong, spell-like abilities still provoke AoO, while (Su) does not. nonetheless can it be pointed out to me anyone that a (su) can in fact be identified even without an enemy spell caster, or apporpriate knowledge check , if there even is one, how it would be identified?

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