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THE Master Summoner


Advice

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As some of you know, I love building and playing all sorts of different characters. Paladins, Fighters, Dragon Disciples and Wizards most often, but really anything not gunslinger or alchemist will get my juices flowing... but my favorite character to play is far and away the Master Summoner.

I've been getting requests in mail for my thoughts on the archetype and the various builds I've been using, so I thought I might throw up the version I'm using at present for resource, comments and dissection.

I've chosen Half-Elf for my race because 1) I intend on using an Eldritch Heritage feat line and Half-Elf gives you that requisite Skill Focus for free and 2) the favored class alternative for Half-Elven Summoners allows me to gain additional evolution points which are at a premium for this archetype's eidolon.

Attributes:
25 point build
STR - 8
DEX - 14
CON - 14
INT - 12
WIS - 14
CHA - 16 (+2 racial bonus, +1 at 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th and 20th)

20 point build
STR - 8
DEX - 14
CON - 14
INT - 10
WIS - 12
CHA - 16 (+2 racial bonus, +1 at 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th and 20th)

15 point build
STR - 8
DEX - 14
CON - 12
INT - 10
WIS - 10
CHA - 16 (+2 racial bonus, +1 at 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th and 20th)

Traits:
Focused Mind
Reactionary

Also, I recommend taking the Arcane Training alternative racial feat offered by half-elves. You won't be multi-classing, so an additional favored class does you no good.

Feats:
1st - Skill Focus: Knowledge (Planes)
1st - Extra Summons
2nd - Augmented Summoning
3rd - Superior Summoning
5th - Improved Initiative
7th - Extra Summons
9th - Eldritch Heritage (Primal Bloodline - Air)
11th - Improved Eldritch Heritage (Primal Bloodline - Air)
13th - Extra Summons
15th - Quicken Spell
17th - Greater Eldritch Heritage (Primal Bloodline - Air)
19th - Extra Summons

The first Eldritch Heritage feat gives you a minor electrical ray attack which by that level is relatively useless, but the second one grants Electricity Resistance: 10 to all your summoned creatures AND +1d6 electrical damage to all of their natural attacks which is very nice. The third one gives you the ability to Fly at will (60', average manueverability). You could alternately choose one of the other elements for similar benfits but different travel modes - for me flight is a no-brainer.

Spell Selection:
The Pit spells are very under-rated in my opinion and the ability to Charm, Hold and Dominate Monsters can be a complete game-changer in some encounters. Staples like Haste, Transmogrify, Dispel Magic, Invisibility, Dimension Door and Teleport are all must-haves. During low levels Daze becomes your staple attack and can keep you out of trouble more often than you might think. Summon Swarm can be very potent in the right circumstances - foes without area of effect attacks are basically helpless against them and creatures with lower Fortitude saves can go down quickly from their poison.

Eidolon:
There is a lot you can do with your eidolon, but for me I have found his best use is as a scout and pocket rogue. I start off with a small-sized Serpent type to get the stealth and Dex bonuses and a starting Climb movement mode. At later levels I arm him with a wand so that he can participate in combat actively when summoned, giving me yet another way to deal damage without putting myself in danger. Don't neglect the Aspect class feature of the Summoner which provides advantages that you enjoy even when it hasn't been summoned.

I generally provide him with a bandoleer that contains chalk, masterwork thieve's tools, a tanglefoot bag, a couple of tinder twigs and eventually a wand of magic missiles or scorching ray. The first Attribute Bonus at 10th level goes to Charisma and the second at 20th goes to Constitution. Feats are Fleet (1st), Fleet (6th), Skill Focus: UMD (12th) and Skill Focus: Perception (18th).

Evolution points by level:

1st - 3rd
Skilled: Stealth (1), Skilled: Perception (1), Arms (1)

4th/5th
Skilled: Stealth (1), Skilled: Perception (1), Arms (1), Skilled: UMD (1), Skilled: Disable Device (1)

6th/7th
Skilled: Stealth (1), Skilled: Perception (1), Arms (1), Skilled: UMD (1), Winged Flight (2)

8th/9th
Skilled: Stealth (1), Skilled: Perception (1), Arms (1), Skilled: UMD (1), Skilled: Disable Device (1), Winged Flight (2), Increased Dexterity (2)

10th/11th
Skilled: Stealth (1), Skilled: Perception (1), Arms (1), Skilled: UMD (1), Skilled: Disable Device (1), Winged Flight (2), Increased Flight Speed (1), Improved Natural Armor x2 (2)*

12th/13th
Skilled: Stealth (1), Skilled: Perception (1), Arms (1), Skilled: UMD (1), Skilled: Disable Device (1), Winged Flight (2), Increased Flight Speed (1), Increased Dexterity (2), Improved Natural Armor x2 (2)*

14th/15th
Skilled: Stealth (1), Skilled: Perception (1), Arms (1), Skilled: UMD (1), Skilled: Disable Device (1), Winged Flight (2), Increased Flight Speed x2 (2), Increased Dexterity (2), Improved Natural Armor x2 (2)*

16th/17th
Skilled: Stealth (1), Skilled: Perception (1), Arms (1), Skilled: UMD (1), Skilled: Disable Device (1), Wingless Flight (4), Increased Flight Speed x2 (2), Increased Dexterity (2), Improved Natural Armor x2 (2)*

18th/19th
Skilled: Stealth (1), Skilled: Perception (1), Arms (1), Skilled: UMD (1), Skilled: Disable Device (1), Wingless Flight (4), Increased Flight Speed (1), Spell Resistance (4) Improved Natural Armor x2 (2)**, Spell Resistance (4)**

20th
Skilled: Stealth (1), Skilled: Perception (1), Arms (1), Skilled: UMD (1), Skilled: Disable Device (1), Wingless Flight (4), Increased Flight Speed x3 (1), Spell Resistance (4), Immune to Electricity (2), Improved Natural Armor x2 (2)**, Spell Resistance (4)**

* indicates Aspect abilities which apply to the Summoner rather than the Eidolon
** indicates Greater Aspect abilities which apply to the Summoner rather than the Eidolon

Another option for Aspect other than Improved Natural Armor would be either immunity to a particular element or resistance to two of them for the same cost.

Equipment:
We play in a fairly low-magic campaign where magic items aren't quite as commonly available for sale or trade as it is in others, so I never pre-plan my character's magical equipment, but the upside of that is that this build is fairly self-contained and needs little assistance. Obviously Belts of Dexterity and Circlets of Charisma would be primary choices. Wands that can be used to cast attack spells, certain metamagic rods, Bracers and Amulets of Armor, the traditional Cloaks of Resistance are all great and you can usually afford more and better than other classes because you don't need to bother with magical weapons.


Why air bloodline? At your level Abyss doubles your Summoned Monsters, Primal gives them 10 lightning resists.


deuxhero wrote:
Why air bloodline? At your level Abyss doubles your Summoned Monsters, Primal gives them 10 lightning resists.

With Abyssal you get +1 monster whenever you summon a creature with the fiendish template or demon subtype at 17th level.

With Primal Air you get all of your monsters dealing +1d6 electrical damage with every attack at 11th level - 6 levels earlier - AND you get flight as an movement mode at 17th.

Seems like a much better option to me, especially considering that this build is intended to play from first level on.


It stacks with Superior Summoning ("Each time you cast a summoning spell that conjures more than one creature") for 3 demon/fiendish monsters summoned off the highest you can cast.

Even if you are using aspect for something else, you get overland flight as a spell.

Level part is valid if played from low level.


deuxhero wrote:

It stacks with Superior Summoning ("Each time you cast a summoning spell that conjures more than one creature") for 3 demon/fiendish monsters summoned off the highest you can cast.

Level part is valid if played from low level.

I'd have to see an official ruling that allowed those two abilities to stack in order to allow it in my game. Interesting combo though, particularly for high-level play.

Overland Flight is a great spell, but if possible I prefer my Flight to be something I can turn on and off at will, something that can't be dispelled and something that doesn't eat up a limited number of high level known spells.

And yeah, as I said, the intentions weren't to show what the character could do at extreme levels, but rather to help those who wanted to build and play the character at any level - such as with the Adventure Paths. In my experience the vast majority of play takes place pre-level 12.


Not sure why it needs one, Added Summonings gives you an additional creature on Summon Monster spells as long as the creature called is a demon or fiendish while Superior Summoning works each time you "cast a summoning spell that conjures more than one creature", which Added Summonings+Summon Monster does.


deuxhero wrote:
Not sure why it needs one, Added Summonings gives you an additional creature on Summon Monster spells as long as the creature called is a demon or fiendish while Superior Summoning works each time you "cast a summoning spell that conjures more than one creature", which Added Summonings+Summon Monster does.

The argument could be made that 1) it is the Bloodline ability that is summoning the extra creature, not the spell itself. The spell summons 1 creature, the Superior Summoning feat fails to go off and then the Bloodline ability adds a second creature and more importantly that 2) it was never intended to work that way.

Again, I like the combo idea, but only if I were playign in a high level campaign.


Unless it is a requirement for that thing, it very rare for anything to be intended to be combined with anything, especially cross source.


Mercurial wrote:

As some of you know... my favorite character to play is far and away the Master Summoner.

I tended to like a halfling for master summoner. The Eldritch heritage I went for was shadow, which when coupled with Hellcat Stealth leads to a master summoner that you unlikely ever see.

The eidolon is built around shoring up minor skill needs which combined with lesser surge and the skilled evolution works reasonably well.

I see the Summoner as a wonderful support class, and they are strongest when they are not seen (and thus targeted),

James


james maissen wrote:
Mercurial wrote:

As some of you know... my favorite character to play is far and away the Master Summoner.

I tended to like a halfling for master summoner. The Eldritch heritage I went for was shadow, which when coupled with Hellcat Stealth leads to a master summoner that you unlikely ever see.

The eidolon is built around shoring up minor skill needs which combined with lesser surge and the skilled evolution works reasonably well.

I see the Summoner as a wonderful support class, and they are strongest when they are not seen (and thus targeted),

James

My first Master Summoner was a halfling as is the one I'm currently running in Skulls and Shackles... for me personally, the optimized Master Summoner is a half-elf. Then again, with a halfling you can have a flying mount by, what, 5th level?


This needs a recommended summons at each level thing.


Vendis wrote:
This needs a recommended summons at each level thing.

Oh I could never do that. Sure, there might be a generic first choice at each level, but I think its important to intimately familiarize yourself with each creature's special abilities and to pick the best tool for the job so to speak. I'd hate for someone to get blinders on when it came to selecting their summoned creatures,

My first MS was a halfling who only ever summoned elementals (for roleplay purposes) and even that gave me a broad diversity - earth elementals for shock troops who could walk through walls or erupt out of the earth, fire elementals for spreading fires and sowing chaos or damaging structures, air elementals to combat flying or distant foes or locking up a troublesome caster in their whirlwinds... and on and on it goes.


I definitely agree.

Though it requires a lot of work, it would be nice to have a line or two on each summon, to kinda outline strong/weak points, tactics, and maybe a trick or two.

Anyway, not so much for me, 'cause I just started GMing a Kingmaker campaign, so I don't expect to use such a guide for a while. I just think you seem to have a good grasp of the class and abilities, and someone like you would be doing a lot of people a favor by providing your insight.


Vendis wrote:

I definitely agree.

Though it requires a lot of work, it would be nice to have a line or two on each summon, to kinda outline strong/weak points, tactics, and maybe a trick or two.

Anyway, not so much for me, 'cause I just started GMing a Kingmaker campaign, so I don't expect to use such a guide for a while. I just think you seem to have a good grasp of the class and abilities, and someone like you would be doing a lot of people a favor by providing your insight.

I'll definitely consider it... if nothing else, two or three selections at each level, perhaps to get others talking and sharing their experiences as well.

Scarab Sages

I like your build, thanks for posting. I'm new to the class and want to try to understand a couple of things.

Mercurial wrote:
The first Eldritch Heritage feat gives you a minor electrical ray attack which by that level is relatively useless, but the second one grants Electricity Resistance: 10 to all your summoned creatures AND +1d6 electrical damage to all of their natural attacks which is very nice.

Where can I find that the second Eldritch Heritage feat grants those bonuses to your summoned creatures? I looked around a bit but was unable to find it.

Mercurial wrote:
I start off with a small-sized Serpent type to get the stealth and Dex bonuses and a starting Climb movement mode. At later levels I arm him with a wand so that he can participate in combat actively when summoned, giving me yet another way to deal damage without putting myself in danger.

Do you keep your eidolon serpent form after it gains flight? It seems the climb speed isn't needed at later levels. I'm not sure if it is worth dropping the dex by 4 to pick a biped form over a serpent form. It would seem that one could save 1 evolution pt by not needing the arms evolution. I'm leaning towards the image of a flying money myself.

Mercurial wrote:

20th

Skilled: Stealth (1), Skilled: Perception (1), Arms (1), Skilled: UMD (1), Skilled: Disable Device (1), Wingless Flight (4), Increased Flight Speed x3 (1), Spell Resistance (4), Immune to Electricity (2), Improved Natural Armor x2 (2)**, Spell Resistance (4)**

The numbers in the parentheses add to 22 evolution points, 19 with greater aspect figured in. Unless my figures are off, 19 = 14 (10th level eidolon) + 5 (20 levels favored class bonus) is the correct number. Is the x3 by Increased Flight Speed a typo?

Mercurial wrote:

Feats:

1st - Skill Focus: Knowledge (Planes)
1st - Extra Summons
2nd - Augmented Summoning
3rd - Superior Summoning
5th - Improved Initiative
7th - Extra Summons
9th - Eldritch Heritage (Primal Bloodline - Air)
11th - Improved Eldritch Heritage (Primal Bloodline - Air)
13th - Extra Summons
15th - Quicken Spell
17th - Greater Eldritch Heritage (Primal Bloodline - Air)
19th - Extra Summons

I assume that since the master summoner's most powerful ability is his ability to summon that extra summons is a no brainer. However, if you were playing a campaign with fewer combats per day, are there other feats that you think would be useful?

What do you use Quicken Spell for? I've never played a 6 level caster before, but the +4 from quicken would seem to me to hurt worse for a summoner than a wiz/sorc. Are there 1st/2nd level spells that are worth casting at 5th/6th?

I would guess the following might be worth it:
Grease (1)
Create Pit (2) - I agree with you that this is a great spell.
Glitterdust (2)
Haste (2)
Slow (2)
Summon Swarm? (2)


The Primal Bloodline is found under the Wildblooded Sorcerer options here.

Climb isn't needed after flight (or rather very, very rarely), but I find arms are very useful in allowing him to manipulate things because arms = hands. Whether its picking locks, opening doors, using a wand, hands are more than worth a single evo point in my book. For this eidolon build, dexterity is much more important than strength, but there's no reason at all why you couldn't use a flying monkey instead of a serpent.

Aspect allows you to gain 2 points of evolutions by subtracting 2 points of evolutions from your eidolon. Greater Aspect however allows you to gain 6 points of evolutions by subtracting 3 points of evolutions from your eidolon. I can see how it would be confusing the way I typed it up, but that is what makes up the seeming 3 point discrepency.

Action economy is one of the most important aspects of the game from a combat perspective. Let's say that you open up every fight by casting Haste (and why wouldn't you?). Quicken spell lets you summon your monsters AND cast Haste in the same round. Being able to do that every combat alone is worth the cost of a feat.

Scarab Sages

Thanks for the responses.

I totally missed the Primal in front of Bloodline, not sure how. Thanks for clearing that up.

I understand the 6 for 3 part of Greater Aspect, I was curious if the Increased Flight Speed x3 (1) was a typo. By my arithmetic, you are only spending 1 point on that, so I would assume that you are only taking Increased Flight Speed once?


This is going to be my first Master Summoner I would choose Air (I liked the Flying also, and thx for showing me primal)or Abyssal (I liked the extra summon here) also, but your build is very similar to mine except I haven't found anything for level 15 feat yet, but why did you choose quicken spell?

I'm a Half-elf also

1 Skill Focus
1 Improved Initiative
2 Augment Summoning
3 Superior Summoning
5 Extra Summons
7 Extra Summons
9 Eldritch Heritage
11 Extra Summons
13 Improved Eldritch Heritage
15
17 Greater Eldritch Heritage
19 Extra Summons

This is also a total beginner question, but can your Eidolon pick Extra Evolution as one of it's own feats or can the summoner only pick that feat. I'm not really sure what my Eidolon will do yet with only half the evolution pool.


By RAW Eidolon can't get more evolutions by picking Extra Evolution feat - it requires Eidolon class feature as a prerequisite, which is possessed by the Summoner but not the Eidolon itself. You might try to negotiate with your GM, especially in case of Master Summoner whose lesser eidolon is at half regular strength and thus not likely to become combat wrecking monstrosity anyway (if you are playing in PFS you are out of luck, however).

I'd go for Abyssal bloodline and its extra demon summoned and picked flying through Aspect feature.

Scarab Sages

One other thing I just noticed, I assume by Arms(1), you mean Limbs (of the arm type). Limbs cost 2 evolution points. Am I missing something?


Kexle wrote:

Thanks for the responses.

I totally missed the Primal in front of Bloodline, not sure how. Thanks for clearing that up.

I understand the 6 for 3 part of Greater Aspect, I was curious if the Increased Flight Speed x3 (1) was a typo. By my arithmetic, you are only spending 1 point on that, so I would assume that you are only taking Increased Flight Speed once?

You are exactly right - I missed that. It was a change to the formula when I chose to use the final 2 points for electricity immunity rather than additional flight speed... just never erased the x3. Thanks for the catch.


Drejk wrote:
I'd go for Abyssal bloodline and its extra demon summoned and picked flying through Aspect feature.

That is an option and a valid one - in fact picking up Flight through Aspect was what I did with my first MS. Personally I like the additional damage that all your summoned creatures deal starting at level 11 more than I like the additinoal creature summoned at level 17, and keeping those evolution points free for an additional +4 AC. If I were running a purely high-level campaign (beginning at 17th or higher) I would definitely consider the Abyssal option.


Though it has nothing to do with your build, I'd almost take Verdant bloodline. It's not going to buff your summons, but its abilities make it one fun bloodline. Making trip Astros at no risk to yourself is handy. And needing only two hours of sleep means that you're eidolon can use its scout abilities and watch over the party most of the night


Revised Eidolon build using a small Biped as its base:

The first Attribute Bonus at 10th level goes to Charisma and the second at 20th goes to Constitution. Feats are Skill Focus: Perception (1st), Skill Focus: UMD (6th), Skill Focus: Stealth (12th) and Lightning Reflexes (18th).
.

Eidolon (Small biped)

1st - 3rd level
Skilled: Stealth (1), Skilled: Perception (1), Skilled: Disable Device (1)

4th/5th level
Skilled: Stealth (1), Skilled: Perception (1), Skilled: Disable Device (1), Improved Dexterity (2)

6th/7th level
Skilled: Stealth (1), Skilled: Perception (1), Skilled: Disable Device (1), Skilled: UMD (1), Winged Flight (2)

8th/9th level
Skilled: Stealth (1), Skilled: Perception (1), Skilled: Disable Device (1), Skilled: UMD (1), Winged Flight (2), Ability Increase - Dexterity (2), Increased Flight Speed (1)

10th/11th level
Skilled: Stealth (1), Skilled: Perception (1), Skilled: Disable Device (1), Skilled: UMD (1), Winged Flight (2), Ability Increase - Dexterity (2), Improved Natural Armor x2 (2)*

12th/13th level
Skilled: Stealth (1), Skilled: Perception (1), Skilled: Disable Device (1), Skilled: UMD (1), Winged Flight (2), Ability Increase – Dexterity x2 (4), Improved Natural Armor x2 (2)*

14th/15th level
Skilled: Stealth (1), Skilled: Perception (1), Skilled: Disable Device (1), Skilled: UMD (1), Winged Flight (2), Ability Increase – Dexterity x2 (4), Improved Flight Speed (1), Improved Natural Armor x2 (2)*

16th/17th level
Skilled: Stealth (1), Skilled: Perception (1), Skilled: Disable Device (1), Skilled: UMD (1), Winged Flight (2), Ability Increase – Dexterity (2), Improved Flight Speed (1), Spell Resistance (4), Improved Natural Armor x2 (2)*

18th/19th level
Skilled: Stealth (1), Skilled: Perception (1), Skilled: Disable Device (1), Skilled: UMD (1), Skilled: Fly (1), Winged Flight (2), Ability Increase – Dexterity (2), Improved Flight Speed (1), Spell Resistance (4) Improved Natural Armor x2 (2)**, Improved Natural Armor x2 (2)**, Spell Resistance (4)**

20th level
Skilled: Stealth (1), Skilled: Perception (1), Skilled: Disable Device (1), Skilled: UMD (1), Skilled: Fly (1), Winged Flight (2), Ability Increase – Dexterity (2), Improved Flight Speed (1), Spell Resistance (4), Immunity to Electricity (2), Improved Natural Armor x2 (2)**, Spell Resistance (4)**

* indicates Aspect abilities which apply to the Summoner rather than the Eidolon
** indicates Greater Aspect abilities which apply to the Summoner rather than the Eidolon


Shyne wrote:
Your build is very similar to mine except I haven't found anything for level 15 feat yet, but why did you choose quicken spell?

As stated above:

Action economy is one of the most important aspects of the game from a combat perspective. Let's say that you open up every fight by casting Haste (and why wouldn't you?). Quicken spell lets you summon your monsters AND cast Haste in the same round. Being able to do that every combat alone is worth the cost of a feat.


Shyne wrote:
I'm not really sure what my Eidolon will do yet with only half the evolution pool.

Generally people make them into skill monkeys rather than combatants. I knew one guy who loaded his eidolon up with Linguistics and Knowledge skills, took Skilled evolutions in all of them as well as Skill Focus feats and basically made him his magical encyclopedia.


I'm not big on a moderate single resistance and +1d6 is nice, but I'm not sure it's worth blowing three feats, essentially, for fly at will.

My idea of a build so far uses halfling and uses the Eidelon as Mount/Skill-Monkey. That way I have as much flight/hide as I need until I'm forced to summon more than one pack of monsters at a time. Even then boots of flying are only 16k and they're more than enough to do the job.

Though I agree flight is excellent for a summoner, I personally would not use 3 feats (even with the small bonus to summons) and after careful contemplation the last few weeks, I see little value in 'at will' flight, when it's mainly for circumstantial and combat reasons, you only need maybe 3-5 instances even on a taxing day.


Mercurial wrote:
Let's say that you open up every fight by casting Haste (and why wouldn't you?). Quicken spell lets you summon your monsters AND cast Haste in the same round. Being able to do that every combat alone is worth the cost of a feat.

By the level that you are spending 6th level spells, everyone beyond your summons should have boots of speed if haste is good for them.

But if you want to focus this way, I would suggest that you invest a bit more into it (a trait or two) to lower the level that you need to spend for the quickened haste... also meaning that it could come online as early as level 10.

By 16th you could also elect to spend cash (35k) and just get a metamagic rod of lesser quicken instead.

I think using up 6th level summoner spells for a quickened haste is a bit of a waste, but then again I'm curious on all the extra summons as well as I think it's likely overkill for most.

-James


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james maissen wrote:
Mercurial wrote:
Let's say that you open up every fight by casting Haste (and why wouldn't you?). Quicken spell lets you summon your monsters AND cast Haste in the same round. Being able to do that every combat alone is worth the cost of a feat.

By the level that you are spending 6th level spells, everyone beyond your summons should have boots of speed if haste is good for them.

But if you want to focus this way, I would suggest that you invest a bit more into it (a trait or two) to lower the level that you need to spend for the quickened haste... also meaning that it could come online as early as level 10.

By 16th you could also elect to spend cash (35k) and just get a metamagic rod of lesser quicken instead.

I think using up 6th level summoner spells for a quickened haste is a bit of a waste, but then again I'm curious on all the extra summons as well as I think it's likely overkill for most.

-James

I know that the monty-haul mentality when it comes to magic is pervaisive in PF, that in most campaigns magic items are so common as to be bought, sold and traded like baseball cards, that somehow what makes a good fighter great is his ubiquitous wand of cure light wounds... but I'm never going to make magic items part of a character build nor encourage others to rely on them as crutches. In my mind when you're building a character you do it without the presumption of having another character class around to cover your weak spots or having access to any magic item you desire.

Its a personal pet peeve, but I hate the fact that magic items even have a gold piece value or that cities by simple virtue of size can provide almost anything on demand. People are free to load up as they wish and build their characters around what they bought rather than what they can do, but magic items are not an integral part of my build reccomendations.

I think your suggestion of using a trait to specifically lower Quickened Haste's spell level is a good one.

There have been a number of occaisions where my ability - early or late - to summon a veritable army of monsters, buff them and send them in all at once have allowed us to win battles we had no business even participating in. The extended duration of your Summons means rounds spent summoning or buffing aren't wasted.


Quori wrote:
I'm not big on a moderate single resistance and +1d6 is nice, but I'm not sure it's worth blowing three feats, essentially, for fly at will.

Its not about 'fly at will' and its much better than 'nice.'

Think about it - at 11th level, when the +1d6 electrical becomes available, a Summon Monster VI with Superior Summoning will summon me 2-4 dire lions, but let's say I get 3... Hastened, that's 12 natural attacks every round, each dealing an extra 1d6 damage, so a potential extra 12d6 damage every round, round after round not counting attacks of opportunity. If I summon twice, that's 24d6 potential extra damage a round.

That's better than nice in my book.

On the other hand, I get far more use out of a basically undetectable scout with ungodly perception, darkvision and the ability to communicate telepathically than I ever would with a mount, especially considering the many avenues through which I can get fly on my own.


Mercurial wrote:


I know that the monty-haul mentality ...

I think that's a gross over-reaction.. you're talking about what would come on line at 16th level when you can cast spells that are 9th level for others, and others in your party are close to getting 9th level spells. To me that's when your party is a major force to be reckoned with, and it seems hard to believe that items someone half your level could make aren't available to you stretch credibility.

I'm sorry but I don't see that as 'monty-haul'.. closer to the year's supply of turtle wax.

But again, I think you're overloaded on 'extra summons' and that quicken spell simply for haste to burn your top level spells is overbought.

Items do factor into builds, and should factor into your thinking. And if your campaign is so item poor that at 16th level you are wondering if you might have boots of speed on your fighter, then I would suggest dropping some of the extra summons for item creation feats.

-James


Mercurial wrote:
On the other hand, I get far more use out of a basically undetectable scout with ungodly perception, darkvision and the ability to communicate telepathically than I ever would with a mount, especially considering the many avenues through which I can get fly on my own.

With so many avenues with which to obtain fly, may we ask why you're throwing away your 17th level feat simply to obtain it? Even in a low magic campaign when others can cast Wish and Miracle, it is not possible to believe that fly isn't accessible by everyone.

The Eidelon only needs to be good at 2-3 skills depending on how you play it, and Darkvision/Telepathy is level based, not pool points... so that is kind of irrelevant to even mention. Fly/Mount is 3 points, but other than 2-3 skills and a flying mount, it's useless for anything else for a Master Summoner. Since it isn't combat worthy, you might as well just use it for skills and off-set your hard to come by magical items.

I also agree that the only thing of use is the +1d6 damage at the cost of 2 feats. I would 'consider' that. However, the resistance is effectively useless and the Fly at will is redundant.

Extra Summons is a waste for only 1 more summon when you get a load-full for free. Also, I must concur with maissen, quicken spell for a 6th level max caster is a waste, you should use all the cash you're saving from a flying mount and spend it on a rod of lesser-quicken, as it speeds up half of your spell levels (even the ones that are downgraded in level from other lists!)

Cheers.


I think I figured out what I was gonna do with that last feat since my Eidolon won't be that great. I'm either gonna take Leadership, Wild Cohort or Dragon Cohort so I can get an awesome defender. Wild Cohort gives an animal companion and Dragon Cohort is in a 3.5 book, but they are both 3.5 feats.


Mercurial wrote:


Feats:
1st - Skill Focus: Knowledge (Planes)
1st - Extra Summons
2nd - Augmented Summoning
3rd - Superior Summoning
5th - Improved Initiative
7th - Extra Summons
9th - Eldritch Heritage (Primal Bloodline - Air)
11th - Improved Eldritch Heritage (Primal Bloodline - Air)
13th - Extra Summons
15th - Quicken Spell
17th - Greater Eldritch Heritage (Primal Bloodline - Air)
19th - Extra Summons

The first Eldritch Heritage feat gives you a minor electrical ray attack which by that level is relatively useless, but the second one grants...

How are you able to pick up a feat at 2nd level? Also, how are you able to get Augmented Summoning without Spell Focus (conjuration)?


Master Summoner gets Augment Summoning for free at 2nd level.


Mirrel the Marvelous wrote:
Master Summoner gets Augment Summoning for free at 2nd level.

Ahh, I didn't realize that master summoner was an archetype. Thank you for clarifying :)


I put this in the general advice as well, but why have skill focus:Knowledge (planes)?
What does it do that's providing a greater benefit than say perception?
As a summoner, I should know all about my own summons, and can depend on a regular knowledge check to tell me about the oddball stuff.


Because of eldritch heritage.


Excuse me, but about this passage at the Master Summoner archetype: "If the summoner’s eidolon is not summoned, the number of creatures that can be summoned with this ability is only limited by its uses per day."

According to this wouldn't Extra Summons also increase the maximum number of creatures you can put onto the field at the same time?


abyssal bloodline...nuff said


If you can't get a lesser metamagic rod of quicken spell in your campaign, then the feat is better than not being able to quicken.

If you can, then those rods are stellar for dropping an extra buff. Heck, at 15th level, I'd try to have 2 so I could drop 6 quickened buffs a day.


Btw. is it actually allowed to use a Wildblooded archetype like Primal with the Eldritch Heritage feat? I thought those options are only available to sorcerers and (Imp./Greater) Eldritch Heritage can only be used with the original bloodline powers.

If so, then Elemental would be a rather poor choice compared to Abyssal.


I am thinking of playing a master summoner.....but cant be bothered with the whole eidolon thing

what would be a balanced (maybe sub-par)swap out for it in peoples opinions? something still with a summoner style theme?

ta


Well, according to the Rules Question section, Primal is an archetype, not a bloodline. So by RAW you can't choose Primal. No 1d6 extra electricity damage then.


Mercurial wrote:

Revised Eidolon build using a small Biped as its base:

The first Attribute Bonus at 10th level goes to Charisma and the second at 20th goes to Constitution. Feats are Skill Focus: Perception (1st), Skill Focus: UMD (6th), Skill Focus: Stealth (12th) and Lightning Reflexes (18th).
.

Eidolon (Small biped)

1st - 3rd level
Skilled: Stealth (1), Skilled: Perception (1), Skilled: Disable Device (1)

4th/5th level
Skilled: Stealth (1), Skilled: Perception (1), Skilled: Disable Device (1), Improved Dexterity (2)

6th/7th level
Skilled: Stealth (1), Skilled: Perception (1), Skilled: Disable Device (1), Skilled: UMD (1), Winged Flight (2)

8th/9th level
Skilled: Stealth (1), Skilled: Perception (1), Skilled: Disable Device (1), Skilled: UMD (1), Winged Flight (2), Ability Increase - Dexterity (2), Increased Flight Speed (1)

10th/11th level
Skilled: Stealth (1), Skilled: Perception (1), Skilled: Disable Device (1), Skilled: UMD (1), Winged Flight (2), Ability Increase - Dexterity (2), Improved Natural Armor x2 (2)*

12th/13th level
Skilled: Stealth (1), Skilled: Perception (1), Skilled: Disable Device (1), Skilled: UMD (1), Winged Flight (2), Ability Increase – Dexterity x2 (4), Improved Natural Armor x2 (2)*

14th/15th level
Skilled: Stealth (1), Skilled: Perception (1), Skilled: Disable Device (1), Skilled: UMD (1), Winged Flight (2), Ability Increase – Dexterity x2 (4), Improved Flight Speed (1), Improved Natural Armor x2 (2)*

16th/17th level
Skilled: Stealth (1), Skilled: Perception (1), Skilled: Disable Device (1), Skilled: UMD (1), Winged Flight (2), Ability Increase – Dexterity (2), Improved Flight Speed (1), Spell Resistance (4), Improved Natural Armor x2 (2)*

18th/19th level
Skilled: Stealth (1), Skilled: Perception (1), Skilled: Disable Device (1), Skilled: UMD (1), Skilled: Fly (1), Winged Flight (2), Ability Increase – Dexterity (2), Improved Flight Speed (1), Spell Resistance (4) Improved Natural Armor x2 (2)**, Improved...

Hi Mercurial,

Is it just me or is your Eidolon build overlooking the fact that as a Master Summoner your Eidolon's level will always be half of yours? Isn't that the key trade-off that makes a Master Summoner a Master Summoner?

Grand Lodge

Shyne wrote:
This is going to be my first Master Summoner I would choose Air (I liked the Flying also, and thx for showing me primal)or Abyssal (

I got my summoner flying by giving myself wings using Aspect at 8th level.


That two year bump...


@Applied People

It's just you. That's why the eidolon remains the same at levels 1-3, then at levels 4-5, etc. if only progresses every two levels because it's half as effective.

This is a very old thread and I've tweaked the build a bit since then.


Mercurial wrote:

@Applied People

It's just you. That's why the eidolon remains the same at levels 1-3, then at levels 4-5, etc. if only progresses every two levels because it's half as effective.

This is a very old thread and I've tweaked the build a bit since then.

It may be a very old thread, but its the best I've found on Master Summoners. Thanks for all your great posts along the way.

And now I've understood how you were communicating the Eidolon's progression. Makes sense now!

I'd be curious to see the latest version of your build, both for the summoner and the eidolon.

I've also been admiring your Kitsune enchanter and Paladin builds. Did you ever consolidate your builds into a single thread?


Mercurial wrote:

@Applied People

It's just you. That's why the eidolon remains the same at levels 1-3, then at levels 4-5, etc. if only progresses every two levels because it's half as effective.

This is a very old thread and I've tweaked the build a bit since then.

Somewhat necro bump: could you post your tweaked build?

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