You don't really cast detect magic "on" anything. It is a 60 foot cone. Anything in that cone is picked up as being magical that qualifies. Then you have to concentrate to determined the exact square the aura is coming from, and you can possibly find out which school of magic the spell is from.
Right. I just meant that they need to cast it at the appropriate moment and look in that direction. My PCs don't walk around constantly casting detect magic, although they typically do it upon entering a new room.
What is the door made of again? Maybe our GM was thinking the trap was inside, and that it had total cover from detect magic. Depends on what it was made of and how thick it was.
We also did get up onto the balcony and try to work our way in that way. Perhaps the GM (and thus those NPCs/servants inside) considered it a break in attempt and had it trigger the trap?
That would be fair I think, except for the fact that we really had no where to go, but over the edge.
If the trap can be found by non magical means and disarmed from outside, it must also be visible to detect magic from outside. As for the balcony, your GM may have changed the module to make the unseen servant more aggressive, but as written the servant only DISARMS the door trap. The servant doesn't set off the trap in any circumstance, and the module doesn't even say the trap CAN be set off, other than by someone opening the door without the trap being disarmed.
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RD, if I were you, I'd simply ask your GM -- out of character -- if there were any other ways that that encounter could have gone, or if there was some way to avoid that fight that your characters missed.
That'll be a little less confrontational than something like, "I asked on the message boards, and people said you're wrong!"
I always think it's the GM's prerogative to change the details of an encounter however they see fit. It's sounding to me that he decided to make the air elemental just appear and attack like a normal creature, not as a trap.
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Probably not terribly productive to the actual conversation but the group I ran this for had a bit of a disaster here as well, though in a very different way.
After getting past the golem hound by figuring out the uniform trick and effectively luring it back to lock in the gatehouse, the party over-looked the bell since they had no one who was particularly good at perception.
Also not having anyone who could pick locks(Part of book one consisted of me asking the players 'You are at a haunted prison that burned down and you didn't think to prepare for fire, undead or locks?) it was determined that the best course of action would be to spider climb one of the more stealthy members and send him to see if there was another way inside.
Able to get in through the back door, this character made his way quickly through the building to the front door to meet up with the group. As he started to look at the door from the inside the creature within the main room came out of hiding and into view.
Panicking he tried to bash his way through the door, shouting 'Let me out!' which summoned the air elemental behind the rest of the party bringing the response 'Let us in!'
Fortunately the group managed to push inside and take out the interior guardian(leaving details limited for spoilers) while being in the building greatly diminished the threat of the air elemental itself. Before they got inside the elemental managed to grab and drop a druid(who managed to fly up and inside) and then her animal companion, so for the silly mess they got themselves in the only casualty of the fight was an animal companion.
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Probably not terribly productive to the actual conversation but the group I ran this for had a bit of a disaster here as well, though in a very different way.
After getting past the golem hound by figuring out the uniform trick and effectively luring it back to lock in the gatehouse, the party over-looked the bell since they had no one who was particularly good at perception.
Also not having anyone who could pick locks(Part of book one consisted of me asking the players 'You are at a haunted prison that burned down and you didn't think to prepare for fire, undead or locks?) it was determined that the best course of action would be to spider climb one of the more stealthy members and send him to see if there was another way inside.
Able to get in through the back door, this character made his way quickly through the building to the front door to meet up with the group. As he started to look at the door from the inside the creature within the main room came out of hiding and into view.
Panicking he tried to bash his way through the door, shouting 'Let me out!' which summoned the air elemental behind the rest of the party bringing the response 'Let us in!'
Fortunately the group managed to push inside and take out the interior guardian(leaving details limited for spoilers) while being in the building greatly diminished the threat of the air elemental itself. Before they got inside the elemental managed to grab and drop a druid(who managed to fly up and inside) and then her animal companion, so for the silly mess they got themselves in the only casualty of the fight was an animal companion.
That's hilarious, Tarlane! :)
You don't need line of sight, only line of effect. As long as you can visualise the area it should not have been an issue. IIRC the whirlwind is only as big as the monster so teleporting out should have been feasible. I think the GM was going out of his way to be difficult.Yeah, I think the same. I wouldn't expect this campaign to continue for long, if the GM is being this difficult. Unless you like Turin the Mads campaign style, where players just asssign a new number to their next PC after getting killed off again. ;)
And it's a shame. As far as AP's go, Carrion Crown definitely is one of the best ones, IMHO.
Carrion Crown is the one AP that I *want* the PCs to make it to the end from 1st level. Hopefully they're all kinds of not quite right in the head by that point with all that they'll have gone theough... ^__^
Well, use the sanity rules from Wake of the Watcher as soon as level one, you'll get your wish. :D
Well, use the sanity rules from Wake of the Watcher as soon as level one, you'll get your wish. :D
Sounds like a plan. <evil grin>
Are the GMs forgetting the penalties air elementals suffer against earth-bound creatures?
Turin, I don't know what you are referencing with penalties for air elementals. Source?
All I could find was that airborne creatures have a -1 to attack and damage against air elementals via their air mastery.
Cheers
For some reason I have it in my head that air elementals suffer a malus against creatures on the ground. And the same for earth elementals against airborne creatures. *scratches head*
Yeah, we'll see how my players manage it. Tomorrow they get to the Castle. I suspect they will manage the trolls, but it will also be the first time my party has fought brutes. Party is wildshape-focused druid, melee inquisitor, buffing bard, conjurer wizard, melee monk. I think they may get eaten by a few trolls... and then the air elemental. Especially since they are all melee (wizard doesn't really have attack spells)
On the plus side, only the inquisitor has any metal armor (breastplate), so balance checks shouldn't be an issue!
So I worry that the DR 5/- will make the druid's attacks kind of pointless (he'll be in tiger form, so it'll just be d6 + 1 or 2) and even worse for his mountain lion companion. The bard and wizard won't do much damage, except for some buffs and debuffs that are of limited use against elementals. Monk and inquisitor are both melee and the monk's stunning fist and Combat Maneuvers aren't exactly useful either.
Ah well, I've been hinting that they are severely lacking in ranged combat. Perhaps some of them will consider ranged characters when they get killed (though the druid wants an shadow-dancing assassin and the wizard's planning a spell eating barbarian, sigh).
Dunno about other people's experiences running this encounter, but the fight with the trolls and trollhounds in the gatehouse was a HUGE time sink for us (granted that's with six players, but still). It easily ate up 75-90 minutes of game time. I dropped the fight with the hobbling apparatus in the front hall of the mansion just to keep the pace going.
Having two full arcane casters with access to Fireball shortened that encounter considerably for us. ^^
So my party got past this without any trouble.
They ran in and killed the trolls with a healthy use of a flying inquisitor of fire (with a summoned air elemental to help flank), a monk that went up the rope of climbing and down the stairs to open the door (dropped to 5 HP after being hit by two trolls) with flaming amulet of mighty fists, and something about acid bolts. Oh, and a dire-tired sized druid.
Then the Flesh Golem Hound was straight forward except when he bullrushed the monk off the bridge. The monk lived due to just hitting 7 and having ki points for healing. And a small water elemental was summoned to help him to ground.
Then... they saw the rope bell, but skipped the guard uniform, and missed seeing the trap. They failed to pick the lock and summoned the air elemental.
I didn't have it kill the party, which would have been trivial. Whirlwind to pick up EVERYONE, fly up, drop into swamps, do 20d6 damage.
Instead, it flew back and forth hitting people. Monk ran back to the guard house and the wizard cast knock to get inside. Then they ran into the Hooked Apparatus and that was fun...
It ended with the elemental standing at the door trying to hit people inside, the inquisitor, druid's cat, and druid against one wall hitting the Apparatus while the bard, wizard, and monk (now down to 1 HP because of two hits from the elemental when he came running back over from the guard house) availing themselves of fine wine in the other room.
All in all, while appropriate CR for the party, the environmental aspects makes this a TPK if the GM wants it to be. 2 slams at +17 for 2d6+6, DR 5/-, 15 foot reach. It should just be bullrushing people off the ledge or, barring that, picking them up with Whirlwind.
Thanks for this! I may do the same. It sounds like your PCs didn't feel like you threw the fight in their favor. Enough other hazards around, I guess. I know a lot of people complained about the suggestion to have The Splatter Man use less than ideal tactics. Of course, the air elemental is a lot dumber than TSM, but arguably the whirlwind was the most natural tactic for it to use.
<sigh> The Whirlwind can not pick up everyone at once.
I wasn't referring to that specifically, just more generally that, given the terrain, knocking PCs off the bridge or picking PCs up and dropping them is a much more effective tactic than the air elemental than hitting PCs for damage.
<sigh> The Whirlwind can not pick up everyone at once.
Actually, I wonder about that. I think it can. The whirlwind can be 5 feet wide at the base and up to 50 feet tall (25 feet wide at the top). That is more than enough volume to hold a party of 5-6 players.
To capture a character, it need only move through the character's square. The character has to make a DC21 reflex check or take 2d6+6 damage. A second check is made and if failed, the character is picked up and held in the elemental. Highest reflex save my party has is 8, which means a 13+ to not get hit and another 13+ not to be sucked up.
The air elemental can move 100' feet. Whirlwind form is not subject to AOOs. So it can easily weave through the party and make several attempts to pick up each character every round. The only way out of the whirlwind is if you can fly (and you pass the reflex check on your turn).
The party is on a bridge with limited area to run. If they can make it to the guard house then they could hide from the whirlwind. But 200' total feet of movement in a round and a +13 init means that this is very unlikely.
All it has to do is grab people pull them up to the top of the whirlwind, and spit them out the other side and into the water on the next turn. The resulting extra falling distance plus the falling off waterfalls during the swim down the waterfalls plus the 2d6+6 damage from being picked up will certainly kill (by drowning) anyone handled this way.
That is how to play this as a TPK.
Alternative option - Use whirlwind but have it drop them directly into the water below. Gets rid of the intruders but removes the 100' fall off the bridge (so it would only be a handful of nonlethal damage from the two waterfalls). Rather impressive and fun scene without killing everyone.
The air elemental can move 100' feet. Whirlwind form is not subject to AOOs. So it can easily weave through the party and make several attempts to pick up each character every round. The only way out of the whirlwind is if you can fly (and you pass the reflex check on your turn).
I'm not quite following this. Doesn't the air elemental just get one attack per turn, and thus the opportunity to pick up only one PC per turn? It sounds like you're saying it can just move around and any PC it passes/bumps into has to save versus damage and getting picked up. Does this mean it could pick up say 20 PCs in a single round assuming it had sufficient volume? What am I missing?
Alternative option - Use whirlwind but have it drop them directly into the water below. Gets rid of the intruders but removes the 100' fall off the bridge (so it would only be a handful of nonlethal damage from the two waterfalls). Rather impressive and fun scene without killing everyone.
How would this work? The air elemental would pick up one or more PCs and then travel down 100 ft to deposit the PC or PCs in the water? This would look pretty expressly merciful. Could Caromac have directed the whirlwind to act that way? I don't recall if the summoner can set such directions in advance for a trap like this.
And how far do the PCs have to travel to get out of the water and back up to the guardhouse?
Thanks for any help clarifying this! I'm still deciding how to handle this encounter.
Basically, yes. Here are the rules on whirlwind. Anything that touches or is touched by the 5 foot base has to make a save vs damage, fail and you have to save vs being sucked up. PCs in the whirlwind cannot escape unless they can fly. They take damage equal to a slam attack each round they are held but can strike back (at -2 to hit).
I would see the elemental grab up folks with the first move action, spend the second flying down to the water. Next turn kick them all out and fly back up again with one move action, fly and grab up more.
The purpose of the trap is to get rid of unwanted guests, such as thieves. A summoned creature will attack to the best of its abilities and, if commanded, will obey. If you want extra fun, add a 'magic mouth' to the summoning trap that commands the creature to "get rid of the intruders". The elemental can interpret that as it sees fit.
100' below the bridge is water. It hits the first waterfall about 30' later and falls 50' down. The next section is an unspecified distance before hitting another 50' waterfall. They will then wash out in the swamps and if they don't drown (since falling into water is non-lethal but you're talking 14d6 total and going unconscious while swimming will probably mean face down). The book explains this without mention of anything to grab onto while moving and describes the water as having a DC 20 swim check (equivalent to 'stormy').
I said it took the monk an hour to climb back up to the gate house after being bullrushed off the bridge.
Thanks for all that! I can't see any basis to disagree with your reading of the rules, including the notion that the whirlwind could pick up all the PCs in one round ("The whirlwind can have only as many creatures trapped inside at one time as will fit inside the whirlwind’s volume.").
I definitely like your alternative strategy for the whirlwind, which would be a lot of fun. But I'm still concerned it would kill anyone who fell off, with the 14d6 nonlethal damage and the tough DC 20 swim check (since that's a skill PCs don't usually put many points into). I'll have to consider my PC's abilities and think more about the overall battle.
It's a TPK. Don't do it.
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Ok! I guess that means that it also would pretty much kill any individual PC that got bullrushed off the bridge, dropped off the bridge, or dropped into the water. Which means that the best thing to do, if you're not looking to kill a PC in a somewhat unfair set-up, is to have the air elemental use poor tactics by running around and slamming PCs instead of using the whirlwind special attack.
Here's an idea. "Although all air elementals of a similar size have identical statistics, the exact appearance of an air elemental can vary wildly between individuals. One might be an animated vortex of wind and smoke, while another might be a smoky bird-like creature with glowing eyes and wind for wings." Perhaps this is an elemental that takes a more creature-like form, rather than a vortex-like form. Even though they both could turn into whirlwinds, it just seems to make more sense that an air elemental in a creature-like form might be less likely to do so than one already shaped like a vortex...
Or perhaps this way, The elemental has a magic mouth that warns off intruders and states that lethal force will be used if the intruders respond with lethal force. This hints that alternate methods can be used. If the party does a runner across the bridge, have the elemental grab a character and dump them in the river for lesser damage. If the PCs start fireballing, then pull out the whirlwind.
What I meant with "It's a TPK" is "don't use this asinine idea of picking up the entire group and dropping them all at once into the water below". I myself dropped two plate wearers, one by one and they both were saved by quick thinking on part of the ( really well prepared ) Wizard. But if the whole group goes in at once... it will probably end poorly for them.
Thanks for the clarification. What did your wizard do? I don't know if the party's wizard in my campaign will be sufficiently well prepared.
Have Fly, Levitate and Feather Fall prepared. Readied actions. It really was a combination of good timing, good preparation and good luck. Otherwise both the Paladin and Cleric would have gone down.
My wizard summoned a water elemental to rescue anyone who passed out due to falling into the water. The idea was, if needed, it would keep unconscious characters above water and deposit them safely on solid ground in the swamp. Was unnecessary because the monk managed to stay conscious, but it was a good plan. Worst case, the druid would have jumped in and wild shaped into a water elemental.
My alternative plan was to drop them directly into the water; not throw them off the bridge. They'd have two water falls to go over and that would only be 6d6 nonlethal (first 20' into water is ignored and it is all nonlethal). While it is hard to swim in that water, most characters can hold their breath for a good number of rounds.
Once past the 2nd waterfall, you could have a small island or rock outcropping for them to catch up on and let them get back out with out too much trouble.
The deadly part about this is 14d6 nonlethal damage and the probability of going unconscious while still being dragged by the water. Remove that first 100' fall and it probably won't kill anyone. Maybe. Much less likely.
Only thing I'll add - the boss troll and the troll posted at the little keep's back door are specifically watching the golem hound. So the golem hound can most certainly be seen from the keep before you even step on the bridge.
Well the group I'm DMing for just got to this encounter. Though they found the guard's uniform in the gatehouse, they thought nothing of it. They also spared the goblins, finding the WW amulet and the Staff of Swarming Insects. However, nobody spoke goblin, so they just let the critters go. They trounced the Golem Hound, having already faced one, and then began to cross the span. They yelled at the manse, and when getting no response, had the Dhampir Magus stand halfway across the bridge (playing Hex-crafter, so has Fly Hex up). He then used Open/Close to open the manse door from 40' away, triggering the trap. We ended the session there, and our next one will begin with initiative being rolled. The setup is like this: The Human Barbarian (two-weapon dex-based), Tiefling Rogue, and Human Oracle are standing on the guard-tower facing the bridge (with ranged weapons). The Human Scythe-Wielding Fighter, who has the Rope of Climbing tied off to the doorway of the gatehouse, is 30' from the manse doorway, 15' from the Huge Air Elemental. So basically, two on the bridge, three in the gatehouse tower. I'm pretty sure the AE is going to win initiative, but instead of a tpk, I think its gonna go like this:
Round 1: AE moves 5' and double slams Human Fighter. AE gets range attacked with little success. Oracle Life-Links Fighter, but need to retreat should be evident (too far to channel, and Life Link is only 5 hp a turn). Dhampir hopefully retreats, but is rash and will probably unleash a Spell Strike, with about a 50/50 shot of hitting.
Round 2+ AE keeps itself interposed between PCs and door, (these are its instructions) taking slams as needed. This will hopefully drive the PCs back to the gatehouse. If the PCs start doing lots of damage to it:
Taking 24 dmg (1/4 HP) or going to 1/2 HP: It will transform into Whirlwind, then move over anyone exposed. However, instead of dropping them over the waterfall, it will deposit them outside the gatehouse. It will ONLY use the waterfall drop tactic if the PCs come back on the bridge a second time after being dropped outside once. I think getting picked up once near a high place should put enough fear into them, and only if they're brazenly stupid will I let the AE kill them.
The only tricky thing to adjudicate is the Rope of Climbing being tied to the door. I wouldn't think that it would make him immune to getting picked up, but what if the AE moves beyond the tie-off point of the rope (50')? I'm thinking of giving the AE a Break check against the Door. Since the barricade on the doors was DC 23, I'll probably leave it there (door wasn't shut or barricaded, just tied to handle). I guess it sort of outside RAW... whether or not a Rope of Climbing makes you immune from geting carried away..Anyways...
I'd like other DM's input about the tactics proposed above. When our session ended, there were cries of "We're so screwed", but I don't want to skimp on the lethality of the Path. At the same time, doing the easy, insta-kill tactic for the AE is a sure-fire way to kill half the party, maybe even all of it. Thoughts?
I don't necessarily agree that it is winnable. Your party has to be a very specific group to manage the air elemental in which several people have means to stop falling and were prepared for an open air fight. In my group, only the druid could do anything about falling off the bridge. The wizard didn't prepare feather fall and had already used fly and his bound item recall ability fighting the none-too-easy troll encounter. The bard and inquisitor would have no chance. The monk only managed it because he could heal himself with ki points. No one else would have had the HP to manage the fall either.
If your party is full of high hit point types and witch/druid/sorcerer/prepared wizards/summoners/etc with the ability to drop a fly or levitate or featherfall ability then they may live through it.
Additionally, the combination of excessively high mobility, spring attack, and DR makes it very hard for melee to affect. If you have melee attackers who are of the 'many small attacks' method, they are not going to be doing too well. If you play the elemental to its best ability, it would also use flyby attack to never get near the heavy hitting characters. So you're entirely relying on ranged combat and readied actions to hit the elemental (which can recognize and avoid the readied action types).
Did your party kill the Elemental or just wait it out? Your party definitely held a wide swath of the necessary skills for this kind of encounter; many ways to avoid falling deaths, ranged abilities, and high HP. Not all parties are balanced in this direction and the fight is devastating even with some basic prep like a wand of feather fall.
Though, in terms of my party, well... sigh... they don't really think too tactically about the future. For example, they are about done with the Lodge in Shudderwood and have used their last Restoration potions and have no other means for recovering from ability drain/damage. Sigh. I try to keep them thinking ahead but I'm not going to give them things they are foolishly ignoring.
Gotcha. Yeah, a good team. My party ran across the bridge, broke down the door, and tried to hide in the room with the apparatus, which wasn't keen on the idea. Fight ended with three people drinking wine in the wine cellar (with like 12 hit points between them) and two cowering in the corner trying to beat the construct to death while staying out of the door way.
Good times.
I used the tactics listed above and nobody died, but it was literally one melee swing (where a Harrow Card had to be used to get a reroll) from dropping everyone in the river. They did decent damage, then once it got to half its hitpoints, went into whirlwind. It picked up every PC and deposited them outside the gatehouse. When they came back towards the gatehouse, I told them in no uncertain terms that the wind began making an angry howl and began blowing towards the ravine. They knew that the only thing that was going to stop four out of five people from dying (Magus has Hex-crafter and had Fly up), and that was killing the AE with some well-rolled readied attack.
I 100% agree with Murphy's Paradox. Only certain builds will survive this fight intact. As written, there are no Fly, Levitate, or Featherfall potions, scrolls, or wands in the AP before this point. Interstingly enough the Magus could have hit the whole party with his Levitate 'Flight Hex' but there was never time between the trolls and the AE fight...
Overcast, I also removed the Apparatus fight. I agree its kind of unnecessary and anti-climatic after the AE fight. Instead, I replaced it with a Totenmaske disguised as the Count...