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# What players want and expect from PFO.

### Pathfinder Online

I can tell you exactly what I want from this game, and what I hope other people are expecting from this game. In short, I'd like a digitization of how pathfinder works, and what it is. If this is far from the creators vision, please let me know.

[MOST IMPORTANTLY FROM A PLAYER STANDPOINT]

-The ability to create characters offline and import them into the online environment and vice versa. The ability for players to import/export their characters from the online version of Pathfinder to the table-top version would create a perfect synergy of the currently existing Pathfinder product.

-A developer toolkit available for GMs that would enable them to create their own adventures.

-An online database that tracks character progression and equipment. Paizo/Goblinworks could easily utilize and digitize the GameMastery Item Cards: Essentials Deck and the like to create a beautiful online inventory. Due to players being able to import/export their characters from pathfinder online to the table-top version, players should be able to update their OWN character level, stats, and inventory online.

-Standard 5ft. by 5ft. grid tracking, enabling online players to easily see the current situation.

-Grid/character interaction, e.g., enabling characters to see the area a spell might affect if used.

-In-game mob HP tracking, letting GMs focus on more important things.

-Online friends system and live-chat system. I would not expect or want an in-game VOIP service, as most people already use multiple.

-The online character and profile. Players would be able to upload images for their character tokens (a specified file format and size) as well as a "battle image" and "portrait image". The purpose of the battle/portrait images is to "liven the game" and help generate a scene for the players. The dungeons would have preset backdrops for different rooms and sections, and the current character art displayed on screen would alternate depending on whose turn it is during the combat cycle, or by who last spoke in the live-chat system. Obviously the amazing monster art could be utilized from the existing Pathfinder Bestiary books and displayed on screen when it is the GMs turn to deal some damage.

-Party-finding. Particularly, the ability to find and join other players of similar character levels adventures. A player would only be able to join a game mid-session if all of the players and GM accept a vote. Games could also be set to private and password protected, eliminating the option of players joining mid-session.

-GMs retain near-total control. GMs would control the movement and actions of all NPCs and Monsters. The actual dungeon areas would be previously made with the aforementioned GM developer toolkit, but GMs would be able to insert extra monsters, traps, or chests live. The dungeons could have preset dialogue sequences from NPCs, and GMs could respond as the NPC after the sequence. The game could have a preset challenge rating cap, allowing GMs to only insert mobs or traps of certain difficulties.

[MOST IMPORTANTLY FROM THE DEVELOPER STANDPOINT]

-Paizo/Goblinworks could sell ALL of its existing Adventure Paths via micro transactions. This would be an amazing source of income for Paizo/Goblinworks, as most players would love to play the high-quality premade adventures. Players would still be able to create and host games with custom adventures created through the aforementioned toolkit.

[AFTERWORD]

Yes, this is my vision of what I expect from Pathfinder Online, and it may and probably does differ from the creators. When I watched the technology demo and saw that PFO is going to be a "sandbox MMO" and "unlike other MMOs" I found those promises vague.

I expect Pathfinder Online to be the tabletop game mechanics, but online. I hope this is the creators vision.

 Goblinworks Executive Founder

According to the blog, what you want is indeed far from the creator's vision. Read the blog and then decide if you are interested in the product or not.

If you want a faithful reproduction of SRD content in a video game, you need a WOTC product, for legal reasons.

 Goblinworks Founder

There is plenty of information on what Goblinworks plan to do with Pathfinder Online on the Goblinworks website. Please don't start a thread called "What players want". I don't want any of what you mentioned in your post, it sounds like Neverwinter Nights, not Pathfinder Online.

 2 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion Subscriber

PFO forums really need some giant red flashing "this ain't gonna be Neverwinter Nights" sticky post...

Yeah as mentioned by a couple people, that is absolutely nothing like what the game is going to be. Think more along the lines of eve online, with better control on griefing, the golarion campaign setting and you will be far closer.

It is shaping to be more Eve online meets Kingmaker AP, than NWN pathfinder.

that has the main details on what is currently planned for the game. Minor tweaks/adjustments, features that can be added to the game etc... Feel free to post them and bring them into discussion. The devs are pretty active on the forums and they seem to be paying attention to feedback.

Hoping for something not even remotely similar to what is being worked on. Well then really you can save your breath, and hope a different company starts developing something like what you want. At least the main concepts are what is going to be made.

What I described is nothing close to Neverwinter Nights. The blog describes next to nothing except for lore, and the Pathfinder Online Tech Demo is vague and just says "give us feedback on the type of game you'd like to see" and nowhere describes or gives and insight onto the plans for PFO.

 2 people marked this as a favorite.

I am sure that it was already told in some places: The Pathfinder Online won't be using d20 mechanics to avoid potential legal problems concerning OGL and computer medium (which are unclear and untested in courts).

You seems to be confusing MMORPG with GM on-line toolkit/virtual gaming table, which are different things.

An enjoyable game for casuals.

I'm sick of MMOs that require me to play hardcore to enjoy.

I've no interest in being top PVPer or Clearing a dungeon in the quickest time.

I want more RP element. Just because a game measures life in numbers doesn't mean it's a Roleplaying game.

Hannya Shou wrote:

An enjoyable game for casuals.

I'm sick of MMOs that require me to play hardcore to enjoy.

I've no interest in being top PVPer or Clearing a dungeon in the quickest time.

I want more RP element. Just because a game measures life in numbers doesn't mean it's a Roleplaying game.

Hmm...what are you considering "hardcore"? Games/feature wise?

For example, I don't wanna spend every night needing to kill the same creature that spawns on a certain time, just to buy one piece of a five-piece armor set, which after I've completed over a month of toil, I'll meet the barest guild requirement of a group of people I don't like but need to join just so I can take part in the exciting high-end events.

 Goblinworks Executive Founder

BlitzkriegBeard wrote:
What I described is nothing close to Neverwinter Nights. The blog describes next to nothing except for lore, and the Pathfinder Online Tech Demo is vague and just says "give us feedback on the type of game you'd like to see" and nowhere describes or gives and insight onto the plans for PFO.

There is more detail about how the design of the game is taking shape in the various blogs, but I never got the idea this would be a GM-run online game, instead it will be what's commonly known as a "Sandbox MMO", a real-time computer game, with the computer running the single "world" for (preferably) all players worldwide, and all players playing their various roles.

From the Goblinworks FAQ:

Quote:

Is Pathfinder Online going to be a direct adaptation of the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Core Rulebook?

No. MMOs have different needs than a tabletop roleplaying game. Pathfinder Online will retain the spirit and flavor of the Pathfinder RPG, but it will not be mechanically identical.

What classes will I be able to play?
Pathfinder Online's innovative archetype system includes specific paths of development that reflect the classes in the tabletop game, so if you want to play a character that mirrors a classic tabletop class, you'll be able to do it. However, Pathfinder Online is driven by more diverse player activity than the classic adventurer-focused tabletop experience; Pathfinder Online players will be able to act as merchants, farmers, miners, teamsters, caravan guards, spies, and explorers, and in any other role the players choose to create.

Will I be able to play to 20th level?
Characters in Pathfinder Online don't have levels in the classic sense. They develop skills over time, and as their skills develop, and as they meet various prerequisites, they unlock new abilities similar to class features or feats from the tabletop game. Characters following an archetype path will be able to unlock a capstone ability much like the 20th-level capstone abilities in the Pathfinder RPG.

Will archetypes, spells, feats, equipment, and other stuff from Paizo products be available in Pathfinder Online?
While many of the mechanics are different, the flavor of the world will be consistent with the Pathfinder campaign setting, so you will find much that is familiar.

Reading all that (and the remainder of the site, primarily the blogs), the designers vision for this game sounds quite different from what you are describing (which is more an online extension of tabletop play, Wizards of the Coast was planning something close-ish to that when D&D 4e launched, but most of it never got past the concept\alpha stages).

Hannya Shou wrote:
For example, I don't wanna spend every night needing to kill the same creature that spawns on a certain time, just to buy one piece of a five-piece armor set, which after I've completed over a month of toil, I'll meet the barest guild requirement of a group of people I don't like but need to join just so I can take part in the exciting high-end events.

Well...if your meaning WoW or SWTOR and its like. Those are pretty casual. You can experience 80% of the world and gameplay solo. In EQ people would take shifts to camp world bosses over week long periods. In Ultima Online someone could steal EVERYTHING you had on you if they killed you, in Eve you could of spent half a year to get a Titan to loss it the next day. THAT is hardcore. A instance of hardcore PO have stated their blog included being able to raid trade convoys. On the flip side mining in your little ship in high security space is very casual and doable in Eve, doing NPC missions can also be done on causal time.

But I don't know any MMO I have ever played where you can do everything WHILE playing casually. You just can't. Pathfinder online is meant to have player owned settlements and fortifications, you're not going to be able to afford one, let alone man or defend it playing two hours a night. Not by yourself anyway. You'll have to join a group of players that will most likely want something from you in return, such as resource gathering, PvP patrolling, scouting, crafting, etc.

Aw. Back to my tabletops then. The book will probably be the only good thing I get out of this whole project.

Hannya Shou wrote:
Aw. Back to my tabletops then. The book will probably be the only good thing I get out of this whole project.

I think, could be wrong, you're asking for a lot for doing very little. But might also think hardcore means "second job". It DOESN'T HAVE to be this way. In PO you could find something YOU LIKE DOING. And if you want something big, you will have to work for it. I want a tavern. Someone hast to chop the trees, dig the clay, bake the bricks, plaster the mortar, buy the food, make the ale, bake the bread, and sing the songs. If you can't do that alone then you join people that do the things you need and together you make dreams come true. Be it raiding, mining, questing, or craving out your own slice of territory. You just need to do it as a TEAM and do your part for the team just like you do in the tabletops.

Edit: for the sake of not forum spamming.

VVVVVVV THIS VVVVVVV

 Goblinworks Founder

Hannya Shou wrote:
Aw. Back to my tabletops then. The book will probably be the only good thing I get out of this whole project.

I think you should give it a chance. Sandbox MMO's are very good for roleplayers. Much more so than Themepark MMO's like WOW or Rift. There will be hardcore and there will be casual. The important thing about a sandbox is that all are equally important to making sure the game evolves as a community. The Hardcore in PFO will be running kingdoms, the casuals will be living in a persistent world that is ever changing because of the actions of those kingdoms.

Thank you Drejk and Gilthy for your responses.

I appreciate everyone's feedback and insight, I truly do have high hopes and fully support Paizo on this business venture. I just have a hard time seeing anything "different" come from this as it stands.

-AOC had a new style of combat from the standard tab-target and skill-cycle button mashing. This was entertaining for a limited time before it became repetitive.

-AION offered a "new style" of MMO because your character had wings and could fly. All this offered was broken PVP game mechanics.

-SWTOR promised a brand new type of MMO with its voice acted cut-scenes making for a more immersive universe. I'm a HUGE star wars fan, and found that the game was the same as any other MMO, a grind-fest designed to waste your time so you keep paying that monthly subscription. Suffice to say, I made it to a little over level 20 and opted out.

I just want to know some of what PFO could have up its sleeve to offer something that will truly amaze and keep my interest for over 2 weeks.

Personally, I feel like in playing table-top RPGs, you are co-authoring a story of adventure with the other players and GM. Everyone's imagination comes together to create original characters and events that we all know can be more awesome than anything you see in the movies. Video-game mechanics are hard-coded and obviously don't allow you to have as much freedom as a pencil, paper, some basic game mechanics, and your imagination.

This is why I was hoping for an online tool-kit, and so that I could maybe play with some of you nice folks via the internet. The average "gaming time" of people my age seems to be 10pm-4am; that's a little late and inconvenient to be getting together and rolling some dice. If there were an easy way to play online with other people as passionate as I am, I would love nothing more from a game.

It's open to discussion of course, what are you guys really expecting from this MMO? I see Hannya Shou is skeptical, and unlikely to get what he/she wants as well.

Sorry for the long posts...mucho forum love to all...

BlitzkriegBeard wrote:
...-AION offered a "new style" of MMO because your character had wings and could fly. All this offered was broken PVP game mechanics...

I beg to differ. I had a lot of fun with Aion free PvP in the Abyss - until the moment where NC Soft caved in and decided to also give out Abyss Points for grinding the mobs in the Abyss. This was when PvP basically stopped as you could get your points faster and more reliable by doing grindfests...

Blitz all the games you name are themepark games, Pathfinder Online is sandbox game and is going to be completly different then those games.In a sandbox what you chose to do is up to you, there is no set path to follow. Player interaction is the content of a sandbox game and a player driven econamy fuels the conflicts between kingdoms , guilds and rival players. Everything you do in world has a effect no matter how small or trivial it might seem. The players themselves are the story in a sandbox game, you not reading a scripted story that thousands of others share and never changes.

Everytime you log in something new is happening, the sandbox world isnt a static set place that never changes. Players cities are being made and destoyed, rival merchants engage in a trade war hiring bandits to attack each others caravans. A lone exploer discovers a vauleable place to harverst rare resources and charges alot coin to those who want to know where it is and a group of adventuers down a dragon in a far off dungeon and haul back the loot to safty. Sandbox is very close to the pen and paper expereince in the fact that you the player makes your own story in the game, you can be whatever character you imagine and the skill base system pathfinder will have gives you the freedom to do that.

BlitzkriegBeard wrote:

I just want to know some of what PFO could have up its sleeve to offer something that will truly amaze and keep my interest for over 2 weeks.

-----

It's open to discussion of course, what are you guys really expecting from this MMO? I see Hannya Shou is skeptical, and unlikely to get what he/she wants as...

I really seems like you still haven't read much of the blog. That's not a jab. Hell it took me about two days to pick my way through it myself and I'm STILL trying to catch up on these forums. Like others have said, read through it when you get a chance it will fill you in on a lot of their design goals and ideas for the game. As well as explain to you the inherent difference in theme-park games and their limitations vs sandbox games.

SWTOR (had two max level characters) promised to be the FIRST MMO with the missing 4th pillar 'story telling' which to me was COMPLETE & UTTER B$+++$*~. In a sandbox game like Ultima Online you have your own story from Day 1. Its not voiced out through hundreds of hours of acted dialogue, or through scripted events. Its from what YOU do and the impact of those actions have on the world. Let's take Eve. Watch this video Everyone of those colors is a player owned "kingdom" like what they expect to have in Pathfinder Online. Watch as each one raises, falls, gains and loses 'land'. How many stories are there? How many player driven struggles of conquest, diplomacy, treachery, and cunning? Countless. Its Romance of the Three (hundred) Kingdoms, in spaccccccceeeee! Hell I can't think of a SINGLE MMO story that is as shocking as the one of The Guiding Hand Social Club, only possible in a sandbox MMO like Eve and hopefully Pathfinder Online.

I want this type of game, a game filled with liars & cheats, heroes & saviors. Not ONE of them scripted, just real people.

(Oh and for those that don't know what or who the Guiding Hand Social Club was/is read that article.)

This topic needs to be renamed

"What I want and expect from PFO."

I certainly don't want people claiming they leveled their character to 20 while offline then importing that character in-game.

What a mess.

BlitzkriegBeard wrote:

I can tell you exactly what I want from this game, and what I hope other people are expecting from this game. In short, I'd like a digitization of how pathfinder works, and what it is. If this is far from the creators vision, please let me know.

It's far from the vision of the game.

We're not going to make a translation of the tabletop game to the digital world. We're going to make a digital world that reflects the heritage of the tabletop game in ways that are appropriate for a different kind of gaming experience.

We don't plan on focusing on importing or exporting characters to or from the tabletop environment.

The strengths of the tabletop game are different than the strengths of the digital game. We need to play to the strengths of our medium, which means a different kind of game than what you get on the tabletop.

RyanD

BlitzkriegBeard wrote:

I appreciate everyone's feedback and insight, I truly do have high hopes and fully support Paizo on this business venture. I just have a hard time seeing anything "different" come from this as it stands.

We're not trying to create a lot of stuff nobody has ever done before.

This industry is full of innovative, great ideas. There are more great ideas than there are successful games.

What we're trying to do is to use the best of what people have done before in new and interesting ways, learning the lessons of the many, many games that have gone before.

The choices we make about how to combine these great ideas, with our own new content, is what will make Pathfinder Online successful.

I've said before that my objective is to make the kind of evolutionary step that World of Warcraft did from its theme park game roots, but to do that for sandbox games.

Well if you read what I posted...it wouldn't matter if a person leveled their character to 20 offline and then imported it to online. If you play the Pathfinder table-top game for levels, you're clearly playing it wrong.

What I was describing was a game where the characters and gm control the gaming experience. If you wanted to play a high-level character in the online environment, then who is going to stop you? It wouldn't matter if that is what your party and GM wanted to do. If your online buddies all had level 6 characters and you asked if you could "auto-level" yours to 20 and play with the group, I think the obvious answer for parties would be "no".

As previously stated, what I was hoping for was more of an online toolkit for meeting with other players, helping control the flow of combat, and incorporating character created visuals, whilst retaining the Pathfinder table-top game mechanics. This is clearly NOT how the game is going to be made, which is fine.

Andius wrote:

This topic needs to be renamed

"What I want and expect from PFO."

I certainly don't want people claiming they leveled their character to 20 while offline then importing that character in-game.

What a mess.

@BlitzkriegBear, it sounds like you want a Pathfinder-themed Neverwinter Nights game. I'm sure something like that would be fun for a lot of people, but it's not what Goblinworks is building, and it's most definitely not what I want them to build.

One thing that would be really nice, that's somewhat akin to what you're asking for, is an offline character builder that we can use to create our character model, and input our back story. It would be really nice to be able to export/import our characters in that sense. Vanguard had something like this, but it was buggy (surprise!) so I ended up losing one of my favorite model configurations and never got it back quite right.

 Goblinworks Executive Founder

I know this isnt an official thread or anything :) But it's an interesting topic and I'd like to add my two cents.

I've played alot of mmo's. I'd like a little less need to grind to level. A lot of story (which the blogs so far say there is, so no worries). Easy inter-character action. Wheither that's an ingame Voip like DDO, or not.

I really, really dont want to fill my backpack every ten minutes and have to go sell it, or store it. If we could make that frustration go away, I'll have a happy play time :)

Housing is always cool. I have the blogs and I know about the guild halls and camps and such...but even just instanced apartments that characters could get would be cool. Like in Asheron's Call.

Basically, take the coolest stuff from other games and put them in lol. That would make me happy.

Flammata wrote:
A lot of story (which the blogs so far say there is, so no worries).

I'm not sure where you got that, but I wouldn't expect there to be a lot of in-game, developer-created story content. There will be some, I'm sure, but I don't think it's going to be anywhere near the level you'd get in a normal Theme Park.

Nihimon wrote:
Flammata wrote:
A lot of story (which the blogs so far say there is, so no worries).
I'm not sure where you got that, but I wouldn't expect there to be a lot of in-game, developer-created story content. There will be some, I'm sure, but I don't think it's going to be anywhere near the level you'd get in a normal Theme Park.

Or flip that around and say everything you do is a part of a story. The story you're writing with your actions.

I would just like the designers to remember that there are those of us out there (like myself) that have never played an MMO before but are genuinely interested in this game and it's potential. I'd like to enjoy the game without being overwhelmed by experienced MMO players with hooks into all the exploitative tricks they've picked up in other games. In short, I'd not be impressed by paying money for a game in which I get jumped and stripped of all my equipment at every turn while I'm finding my feet - and that shouldn't mean I have to be confined to an uninteresting safe zone (effectively robbing me of the opportunity to explore the world I paid for) to play. Having said that I appears that the designers are taking such things into due consideration and I can only hope that this community as it grows will be populated by kindred spirits with ample tolerance and good will.

Victor the Veteran wrote:
I would just like the designers to remember that there are those of us out there (like myself) that have never played an MMO before but are genuinely interested in this game and it's potential. I'd like to enjoy the game without being overwhelmed by experienced MMO players with hooks into all the exploitative tricks they've picked up in other games. In short, I'd not be impressed by paying money for a game in which I get jumped and stripped of all my equipment at every turn while I'm finding my feet - and that shouldn't mean I have to be confined to an uninteresting safe zone (effectively robbing me of the opportunity to explore the world I paid for) to play. Having said that I appears that the designers are taking such things into due consideration and I can only hope that this community as it grows will be populated by kindred spirits with ample tolerance and good will.

Well the great thing is in these games you will have NPC guarded areas which will protect you till your "training wheels" come off. Though I also want to address the "this community as it grows will be populated by kindred spirits with ample tolerance and good will". In all sandboxes game there are douche bags and I have NO DOUBT a good bit in PFO will enjoy and play out their in game CE alignment with glee.

Victor the Veteran wrote:
robbing me of the opportunity to explore the world I paid for) to play. Having said that I appears that the designers are taking such things into due consideration and I can only hope that this community as it grows will be populated by kindred spirits with ample tolerance and good will.

The Great Legionaries is a chartered company seeking to promote a good community. We plan on helping new players get their feet, and evil characters get their defeat (yeah, I went there. Its late.)

If you want to join up, or are just looking for a hand come game launch time, talk to Andius (head of the Company) or myself, we'll be happy to help you out!

Flammata wrote:
...Basically, take the coolest stuff from other games and put them in lol. That would make me happy.

Doesn't work, really.

Many have tried and failed to make a game like WoW "just better" by incorporating "the coolest stuff" because WoW already has the coolest stuff for the majority of people as far as Themepark MMOs go.

So you either do somethink totally unlike WoW (which Goblinworks is doing) or you heap an insane amount of money on a crassly hyped themepark game to make enough revenue in the first 6 months because afterwards your game will be experiencing a death spiral (like Warhammer Online, Aion, Conan, Rifts, SW:TOR...).

BlitzkriegBeard wrote:
The blog describes next to nothing except for lore...

Saying that the blogs are unclear is not correct, they are quite precise about what kind of a game we will get.

As for me I'll outline my preferences and then my dislikes... Some of which are covered in the Blog...

Preferences:
1) Persistent world like WoW or Asheron's Call.

2) Player driven economy that conforms to logic, such as finished products being worth more than the raw materials used to create said item.

4) The ability to create our own towns, fortifications, and other setting appropriate constructions AS WELL AS the ability to destroy them. For instance, Say I build a trading outpost, it should draw some NPC's over time to buy/sell and help build the foundation for other buildings and so on. Also, we should be able to raze player made towns and slay their people.

5) Have access to some of the iconic prestige classes of the setting, such as Hell Knights or Red Mantis Assassins...

6) There should be a daily cap of experience to be gained, simply for pacing sake. It really is lame to have on day one some jackhole who found an exploit is leveled up to 20+ while the rest have to do it the hard way. Also it keeps the economy in balance by denying them an easy revenue stream by farming low end content to sell. It would also help keep harcores and casuals at a more even keel longer.

7) There should be logical monster spawning conventions. For example, a bunny will come out of a hidden burrow amongst some bushes, a zombie will more than likely come from a graveyard, a dragon will come from a cavern or swamp (depending on color of course). Just appearing out of nowhere because the timer is up is rather lame and diminishes the immersion factor.

8) Going along with the above point, each player should be at least somewhat phased in some areas. For instance, on your way to town, you come across a bandit ambush. You slaughter the bandits. For you, you should not be ambushed again along the same road for a significant period of time, like on the order of a week (real time) or more. Farming an area for experience is ok for games like WoW or FF XI but I think it doesn't belong in a game such as this.

9) There should be encumbrance rules in effect to disuade folks from "Greyhawking" everything in sight, running around with 20 longswords and 4,000 arrows and expecting to not be burdened and fully functional in a fight. That's what bags of holding are for...

10) Crafting should be intuitive and logical. Mass producing normal arrows, ok. Mass producing sets of magical full plate, not ok.

11) Excepting artifacts and other story specific unique items, players should be able to craft anything that can drop. However, it should take considerable amounts of time the more complex or expensive the items are.

12) Artifacts should be rare enough that a player may never come into possession of one, or 1 at the most. Or if they come into possession of one, it should never remain in possession for long. For example, you find a deck of many things but once you use it, it disappears.

13) Death should be meaningful. If you die you are locked out of your character for 12 hours. Of course, if you have access to healing magic or raise dead, then you can come back when it's cast. Also, just because you get reduced to 0 or less hp does not automatically mean you die... Of course, the threshold to achieve death should be adjusted because a 12 hour lockout is rather long. If you find yourself locked out, start a new character ;)

14) Make the currency mean something. People should not be running around with Rockefeller level resources. Too many high levels in a small, non metropolitan space would lead to catastrophic inflation and other major economic problems...

15) Viable combat styles. If someone wants to play a combat maneuver specialist, so be it. It should be viable if they invest in the proper feats and so on.

Dislikes:
1) Being at point blank range, beating on an enemy and seeing "Miss, Miss, Hit" types of messages. I'd rather see my character and the enemy doing a battle dance where a miss looks like a miss in the animations and a hit looks like a hit with appropriate reactions.

2) Farming, Farming, Farming!! I hate farming for materials to craft. I hate farming for experience. I hate farming for anything. I want every encounter to be different from the last. If I am going to craft an item, the process of acquiring the materials should be an adventure in itself.

3) Raid to win. I don't mind coming together to raid once in a while, but doing the same thing over and over again, day in and day out is something I will not do again. I did it for WoW classic and Burning Crusade and it just burnt me out...

4) Rock/Paper/Scissors! Please, no more nerf this class, buff that one in an endless cycle to try and balance what cannot be balanced!

These are the big issues for me. I'm sure there are more preferences/dislikes for me as others list them off as well, but for now this list will do. In short, I'm looking for a game that really captures the scope and spirit of a tabletop game in an exciting visual way. Some of my likes/dislikes will likely be difficult to impossible to implement, but I can dream can't I? :)

I know you've read a good amount of the blogs, but a few things here I figured I'd point out actual anouncements and things, as well as a handful of confusions I noted in reading this that might help you out in understanding what is planned, I know this is a want post so correspondance to what is currently planned is somewhat irelevant, but I figured I'd point out what areas it does and dosn't for parts.

Aspasia de Malagant wrote:

Preferences:

1) Persistent world like WoW or Asheron's Call.

Listing WoW in here, I'm not quite seeing what in WoW is considered Persistant, in fact large portions of WoW are quite the opposite. To me in a persistant world, changes that are made continue. IE when you gather a group to kill the great dragon that threatens the town, when you succeed, the town is not threatened by the dragon anymore, there is no reason for you, or any of the hundred or so other parties to go back into the lair and kill the same dragon again. Now new dragons may come and go, ariving near different cities at different times, their lairs defenses, etc... should not be identical to the one that you killed last week. Further the phasing, a persistant WORLD, means when things change, the WORLD changes, not just for you. If I free the area from the undead hordes, and the area is free from undead hordes for me, it should also be free of undead hordes for Tim, whether Tim took any part in it or not. The phasing system isn't a persistant world, it is multiple static worlds that your actions transport you between.

The phrase "A persistent world like WoW", kind of baffles me as much as "solid fatty red meat, like broccoli"

Ryan at one point went as far as to say skyrim lacked persistence, in that while the guy you killed last week stayed dead, the actual ramifications of such were minimal, many things that should have been a big deal, were largely unnoticed by characters that very well should have been impacted.

in terms of players the same should be mostly true, with the obvious caveat of the characters still exist as permadeath dosn't work well. However if even the most powerful company has his territory turned into a parking lot, it should take a long time for them to build up from the ashes, and they may want to consider moving depending on how much the neighbors who disliked them enough to pave them over, distrust them.

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2) Player driven economy that conforms to logic, such as finished products being worth more than the raw materials used to create said item.

entirely agreed and from the sounds of the crafting system that is in the stated intentions and goals of the game

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Certainly possible down the line and I do agree it is something to hope for, but it most likely won't exist in the early build. The devs have stated interest in adding prestige classes and the like, in updates down the road, but not as a launch priority.

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4) The ability to create our own towns, fortifications, and other setting appropriate constructions AS WELL AS the ability to destroy them. For instance, Say I build a trading outpost, it should draw some NPC's over time to buy/sell and help build the foundation for other buildings and so on. Also, we should be able to raze player made towns and slay their people.

Fully agreed there, no complaints or comments from me on that one, and judging by the blogs that is well within the intent of what GW hopes to make as well.

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5) Have access to some of the iconic prestige classes of the setting, such as Hell Knights or Red Mantis Assassins...

Same as above on prestiges, it would be pretty cool to see though I fully agree

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6) There should be a daily cap of experience to be gained, simply for pacing sake. It really is lame to have on day one some jackhole who found an exploit is leveled up to 20+ while the rest have to do it the hard way. Also it keeps the economy in balance by denying them an easy revenue stream by farming low end content to sell. It would also help keep harcores and casuals at a more even keel longer.

There isn't going to be an experience system in the game at all. "leveling" is going to be real time based, as long as you are paying a subscription, or buying training time in game without paying real world cash, you will gain skills at the exact same pace as anyone else, regardless of if they play 2 hours a week, or 22 hours a day. You will need to earn merit badges, which is more or less tasks/quests you need to accomplish to reap the benefits of the time used on skill training, but there are no shortcuts or ways anyone can dart to the head of the pack.

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7) There should be logical monster spawning conventions. For example, a bunny will come out of a hidden burrow amongst some bushes, a zombie will more than likely come from a graveyard, a dragon will come from a cavern or swamp (depending on color of course). Just appearing out of nowhere because the timer is up is rather lame and diminishes the immersion factor.

I fully agree, I also think that monsters themselves shouldn't have steady predictable spawn times/places. At least judging by many parts of the blog, namely the one on adventuring, many monsters will be coming out of encampments etc... that are built and formed, but I don't think any monster needs to regularly be there. I think if you kill all the orcs in a certain hex, there shouldn't be any orcs in that hex when you check it in an hour. New orcs may appear in a different hex, prefferably if possible such could occour outside of players visions. If I go on a quest to kill the wolves that are harming someones farmers, when I finish with that quest, I don't want to see the exact number of wolves on that farm that there were when I started.

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8) Going along with the above point, each player should be at least somewhat phased in some areas. For instance, on your way to town, you come across a bandit ambush. You slaughter the bandits. For you, you should not be ambushed again along the same road for a significant period of time, like on the order of a week (real time) or more. Farming an area for experience is ok for games like WoW or FF XI but I think it doesn't belong in a game such as this.

Well I absolutely agree not farming the specific route etc... for ambushes to gain from them etc... Though considering the design of the game, I think ambushes shouldn't be designed in a way that it is ever a good thing to be ambushed. Fighting bandits should cost you some resources, reagents, potions, spells etc... and a good bandit, shouldn't have much worth taking on hand. I'm more in the camp that ambushes should be more random, not counting of course ambushes by player bandits, which based on the looting rules are almost certainly not something people will want to intentionally be at the recieving end of.

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9) There should be encumbrance rules in effect to disuade folks from "Greyhawking" everything in sight, running around with 20 longswords and 4,000 arrows and expecting to not be burdened and fully functional in a fight. That's what bags of holding are for...

Mostly agreed, though not sure if the concept of bags of holding make the system much better. Actually in P&P I found the concept of bags of holding to be the oddest thing to claim to be fighting with in hand. OK so you have a 2' by 4' 60lb bag that will implode if struck by pointy objects, strapped to your back in a swordfight? and assume that isn't a risk, or you set it on the ground... OK then the bandits grab it and take off running.

From what I hear GW is intending more of things like large caravans, of waggons pulled by mules for when people are exporting 20 longswords and 4,000 arrows from one city to another. I am expecting to see encomberance, and if not the fact that you can lose all unequiped items on death if someone takes them alone, should pretty much eliminate people from carrying more than the weapon they need for the current job.

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10) Crafting should be intuitive and logical. Mass producing normal arrows, ok. Mass producing sets of magical full plate, not ok.

fully agreed, the better an item is the more time/money/resources that should go into it.

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11) Excepting artifacts and other story specific unique items, players should be able to craft anything that can drop. However, it should take considerable amounts of time the more complex or expensive the items are.

From what I'm gathering I've found little to nothing on the idea of items even dropping in game, We have had confirmation that the absolute best items, will be crafted, and involve the skills of many different profesions to maximize the value and efficiancy.

Just a hypothetical here,
Explorer finds dragon's lair (lairs and hideouts will take special skills to discover, they vanish when cleared or over time, so farming the same dragons den won't be an option).
adventurer retrieves dragon scales from dragons lair.
Crafter to tie it all together to make item X.

As far as I know GW is very intent on making sure that every role comes together, because of that I think it is unlikely that one will ever see beyond basic, low/mid end items found via, Adventurers kill dragon, get fully equiped sword.

GW is focused on maximizing meaningful player interaction, and has a goal of having as many links in the chain as possible.

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12) Artifacts should be rare enough that a player may never come into possession of one, or 1 at the most. Or if they come into possession of one, it should never remain in possession for long. For example, you find a deck of many things but once you use it, it disappears.

Pretty much agreed there, GW has implied a bit on weapons of legend existing but being insanely rare, and I wholeheartedly agree, the idea of a 500 man guild all having the same "Epic rare weapon", kind of defeats the idea of it. Epic rare weapons should be just that, epic rare, not "what you are expected to have to enter PVP or Raid dungeon X"

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13) Death should be meaningful. If you die you are locked out of your character for 12 hours. Of course, if you have access to healing magic or raise dead, then you can come back when it's cast. Also, just because you get reduced to 0 or less hp does not automatically mean you die... Of course, the threshold to achieve death should be adjusted because a 12 hour lockout is rather long. If you find yourself locked out, start a new character ;)

Very unlikely and pretty far outside of GW's goals, with open PVP, encounters and dungeons being more on the random side (IE there is no steady, ok this area you will almost never die if you are above level 3, this area you will virtually never die if you are above level 5 etc...) Death is going to be very common. For a soldier, bandit, dungeon delver, body guard etc... Days where they go by without a death, are going to be the exception not the rule. While large meaningful death penalties sound good to make people take dying seriously, they instead tend to box people into being afraid to take any risks at all. Leading to many people finding the only rational option to do many boring things over long periods of time, rather than go out on a perilous quest.

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14) Make the currency mean something. People should not be running around with Rockefeller level resources. Too many high levels in a small, non metropolitan space would lead to catastrophic inflation and other major economic problems...

15) Viable combat styles. If someone wants to play a combat maneuver specialist, so be it. It should be viable if they invest in the proper feats and so on.

Fully agreed there, they won't be direct feats, there isn't a limitation of how many skills people can train in GW's proposed system, but the order and how deep they delve into any skill may vary, and I do hope that where one puts their skills will matter.

If you haven't read the blogs too deep, don't panic at the idea of "oh well then eventually everyone will max everything", simply getting the minimum needed of any archtype to be considered the equivelant of a level 20 character, is expected to take 2.5 years. People then also have the option to take as many different archtypes. So we aren't looking at maxing of all skills for another 30-50 years when you factor in non-archtype skills, and that is assuming they never implement prestige classes or extra classes.

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Dislikes:
1) Being at point blank range, beating on an enemy and seeing "Miss, Miss, Hit" types of messages. I'd rather see my character and the enemy doing a battle dance where a miss looks like a miss in the animations and a hit looks like a hit with appropriate reactions.

2) Farming, Farming, Farming!! I hate farming for materials to craft. I hate farming for experience. I hate farming for anything. I want every encounter to be different from the last. If I am going to craft an item, the process of acquiring the materials should be an adventure in itself.

3) Raid to win. I don't mind coming together to raid once in a while, but doing the same thing over and over again, day in and day out is something I will not do again. I did it for WoW classic and Burning Crusade and it just burnt me out...

4) Rock/Paper/Scissors! Please, no more nerf this class, buff that one in an endless cycle to try and balance what cannot be balanced!

Pretty much entirely agreed with in every concept here. Adventures need to be unique experiences every time. We should not be killing the same stuff we killed yesterday. When I go into a dungeon, or even a hex, or to guard a harvesting opperation, I don't want to know what I face, I don't want to know what my odds of success are, and I certainly don't want to be doing it from a script (IE WoW's, OK when he hits 25% health everyone run to the northeast corner as he's going to start firebreath). I would far rather less detailed but more randomized encounters across the board.

From the sounds of it even harvesting is intended to be a more active experience (the job in say mining, you aren't the one with the pickaxe, you are protecting commoners who do it for you, from say drugars who hear the noise of harvesting and aren't happy about it.

Hannya Shou wrote:
For example, I don't wanna spend every night needing to kill the same creature that spawns on a certain time, just to buy one piece of a five-piece armor set, which after I've completed over a month of toil, I'll meet the barest guild requirement of a group of people I don't like but need to join just so I can take part in the exciting high-end events.

Often in sandboxes little one play establishments can fly under the radar and avoid destruction simply based on no one wanting to invest the time to destroy them, if destruction is a time-consuming/expensive enough process.

So I would say it depends entirely on what siege/asset destruction system PFO adopts, what content you want to partake in, and how much risk of PVP you are willing to accept.

Rest assured if you establish yourself in GL territory there will be some level of justice and protection enforced in those lands whether you are a part of GL or not. This may be beneficial to you if you simply wish to establish a homestead or business with minimal hassle from others.

Onishi wrote:
... While large meaningful death penalties sound good to make people take dying seriously, they instead tend to box people into being afraid to take any risks at all. Leading to many people finding the only rational option to do many boring things over long periods of time, rather than go out on a perilous quest. ...

Ha! This is really good! :-)

Exactly the reason why "the world" isn't filled with adventurers .... they tend to die a lot, and even in a magic rich world many would simply stay very dead before reaching a level where resurrection would be an affordable option.

Yet, we're gonna see "a world" whose population is largely made up of adventurers! :-D

Kinda weird innit?

cheers.

@bilbothebaggins

I understand where you are coming from, but I have to agree with Onishi. You just cannot have that serious of a death mechanic. Because at the best case scenario, people are going to do the 'many boring things over long periods of time', what will probably happen more often is they will just quit the game because the death mechanic is too harsh/frustrating. And having people quit (i.e less money) is the last thing GW wants.

And to clarify, you speak of "the world isn't filled with adventurers", that is true. But the world of player characters 'are' the adventurers. There are normal citizens (NPC merchants, farmers, children, etc) that exist in the game as well, you just will not see them. Ryan has stated this more than once.

@Hobbun -

Ah, no worries.

Was just spelling out the irony of it, 's all. Or 'tleast I tried to. :-)

The thing remains that in a classic FRPG adventuring heroes are kinda hard to come by, that's what makes the players special, innit?

In a FMMO(RP)G, there is by neccessity an abundance of adventurers, otherwise it wouldn't be massive, now would it?

This abundance of adventurers (relative to game world size) is also what neccessitates the non-persistent theme park worlds. A WoW server with all current content could probably accomodate a few dozen (hundreds? no clue) new players for weeks and weeks even if no quest could be done twice, but once there's thousands you either have the players all do the same non persistent quests or you can just skip the quests and try to get the players keeping each other busy like is planned for PFO.

cheers.

bilbothebaggins wrote:

@Hobbun -

Ah, no worries.

Was just spelling out the irony of it, 's all. Or 'tleast I tried to. :-)

The thing remains that in a classic FRPG adventuring heroes are kinda hard to come by, that's what makes the players special, innit?

In a FMMO(RP)G, there is by neccessity an abundance of adventurers, otherwise it wouldn't be massive, now would it?

This abundance of adventurers (relative to game world size) is also what neccessitates the non-persistent theme park worlds. A WoW server with all current content could probably accomodate a few dozen (hundreds? no clue) new players for weeks and weeks even if no quest could be done twice, but once there's thousands you either have the players all do the same non persistent quests or you can just skip the quests and try to get the players keeping each other busy like is planned for PFO.

cheers.

Well from the sounds of it, I imagine in the lore/game the ratio will roughly be

75% non adventuring NPCs (many if not all of these will be invisible residents of towns, + the miners etc... that do the physical mining.
3% non-adventuring PCs (IE pure crafters, Pacifist diplomats etc...)

@onishi

In response to the persistent world confusion. In Asheron's Call, there were events that players could participate in and once the bbeg was taken down, it would be in effect for the whole server. In fact it was such a successful approach, we even had a bunch of folks actively try to stop those folks trying to defeat the encounter. Thereafter, those who defended the bbeg became legend on the server. Not because they stopped folks for a very long time, but because they stuck it out and didn't do it in a douche like manner. Their decisions to either help or hinder the cause had lasting consequences. Their efforts were not wasted by a respawn or server reset...

Further, barring maintenance periods, WoW was pretty much always up and running. Even WoW had some elements at one point of everyone pitching in for the big win during the event to unlock Ahn'Qiraj(sp?). Not sure if other games did this to any degree but, these are what I remember best.

To sum up, a persistent world is as you described it, always up and running and lasting consequences for action or inaction.

In response to my #13...

onishi wrote:
Very unlikely and pretty far outside of GW's goals, with open PVP, encounters and dungeons being more on the random side (IE there is no steady, ok this area you will almost never die if you are above level 3, this area you will virtually never die if you are above level 5 etc...) Death is going to be very common. For a soldier, bandit, dungeon delver, body guard etc... Days where they go by without a death, are going to be the exception not the rule. While large meaningful death penalties sound good to make people take dying seriously, they instead tend to box people into being afraid to take any risks at all. Leading to many people finding the only rational option to do many boring things over long periods of time, rather than go out on a perilous quest.

Keep in mind, I just listed the things I would like to see. I'm sure you are correct, but in the spirit of pen and paper, I really would like to see hardcore servers to address my desire for a little permanence. Of course, I will play on regular servers too, because sometimes it's just fun to carebear it up a bit.