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Spear training and gloves of dueling


Rules Questions

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Star Voter 2013

37 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Answered in the FAQ. 3 people marked this as a favorite.

It seems clear that all those abilities that replace weapon traning make the gloves of dueling useless. But what about this

Spear Training (Ex)

At 5th level, a dragoon must select weapon training with the spear group. The dragoon’s weapon training bonus with spears improves by +1 on attack rolls and +2 on damage rolls for every four levels beyond 5th (to a maximum of +4 on attack rolls and +8 on damage rolls at 17th level).

The dragoon does not gain weapon training in any other groups as he increases in level.

Te name of the ability is speat training, but the wording of the ability imply that is indee weapon training with the spear group.

So, gloves of dueling works with the dragoon archetype or not?

The Exchange Marathon Voter 2013, Marathon Voter 2014

Looks to me that the ability is just a change to weapon training, not a replacement for it.

Liberty's Edge

Marked as an FAQ candidate.

Scarab Sages

ShadowcatX wrote:
Marked as an FAQ candidate.

Seconded. Good catch there


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. 1 person marked this as a favorite.

I'd say it is clearly weapon training, the only question I had, when I read the archetype, was how do gloves of dueling interact with it?

Is it +2 to attack, +4 to damage then?

Gloves of dueling: "If the wearer has the weapon training class feature and is using an appropriate weapon, his weapon training bonus increases by +2."

I'd say, yes, it sounds like it would. At level 9 you'd have a nice +4 to hit, +8 to damage.

Star Voter 2013

Bump.


Technically, it's not weapon training. Weapon training applies the bonus equally to attack and damage. This doesn't. So . . . gloves of dueling are useless for this character. They do nothing.

In my opinion.

Master Arminas


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Altered weapon training, but still weapon training. Gloves of Dueling should work fine. I will hit FAQ though.

Star Voter 2013

Gotta Agree with bbt here, it says he takes weapon training with spears it just happens to be a better version.

.

Star Voter 2013

a little bump.


I have to agree with Master Arminas. It is pretty cut and dry... is the ability called the same thing? No? Then it doesn't work... by RAW at least.

I would check with a GM, but for things like society play, I would be comfortable saying it doesn't work.

Star Voter 2013

Let me ask this then what does is this nebulous weapon training that he must choose spears with if it isn't weapon training?

He has a slightly better version but it only is ever gotten for one group.

But he has both selected spears for weapon training and is receving a weapon training bonus.


Sean Mahoney wrote:

I have to agree with Master Arminas. It is pretty cut and dry... is the ability called the same thing? No? Then it doesn't work... by RAW at least.

I would check with a GM, but for things like society play, I would be comfortable saying it doesn't work.

It specifically calls itself weapon training as per the normal fighter weapon training in the text as a result I think it's a given that it does work.

As far as the bonus the gloves don't say to advance it to the next step of weapon training but rather to add +2 so I'd say it would only do that so you'd go from +1, +2 to +3, +4. Just my 2 cents.

Silver Crusade

*nods along with blackbloddtroll & gnomersy* It is a modified Weapon's Training. Doesn't replace the class feature, therefore the +2 from Gloves of Dueling will function normally. Doesn't say anything about applying the feature two more times, just says Weapon Training bonus is increased by +2,

level 5 = +3 Attack, +4 Damage
level 9 = +4 Attack, +6 Damage

and thats it for PFS


I would say Spear Training is Weapon Training as per the text. However, I see nothing that would allow the Gloves of Dueling to give more than the +2attack and damage they already give.

- Gauss


I think he misread the spear training just like I did when i saw the brawler. Brawler starts at +1/+3 with close weapons, and increases every 4 levels after 3rd. I originally took it to mean +2/+6 at 7, +3/+9 at 11... etc. however it caps at +5/+7 at 19, which means this cannot be the case. So although it starts higher on the damage side than the normal +1/+1, it still only gives an additional +1/+1 each time it applies.

But yes, since it refers to the ability in the text as weapon training, the Gloves of Dueling would stack.

EDIT: This seems to be the only one of the replacement weapon training abilities that does indeed add +1/+2 each time it is granted.

Which means, in this case, the gloves of Dueling would add +2/+4 to whatever was already present.

All the others state in the cap statement of the ability +x/+y at Z level, always totaling the original bonus plus a +1/+1 for the number of added instances. Either this ability is unique in that it adds +1/+2 at start and also at each level, or it should have been +4/+7 (+1/+2 when granted and +1/+1 at 9, 13, 17), i.e.

Brawler:
Close Combatant (Ex): At 3rd level, a brawler gains a +1 bonus on attack rolls and a +3 bonus on damage rolls with weapons in the close weapon group. Both of these bonuses increase by +1 for every four levels beyond 3rd (to a maximum of +5 on attack rolls and +7 on damage rolls at 19th level). This ability replaces weapon training 1 and 2.

So either Dragoon has a typo, +4/+7 should have been in there instead of +4/+8, or Brawler is a typo, and should total +5/+15.

For that, I would like it FAQ'd.


TGMaxMaxer wrote:

So either Dragoon has a typo, +4/+7 should have been in there instead of +4/+8, or Brawler is a typo, and should total +5/+15.

For that, I would like it FAQ'd.

I'm not seeing the typo. They're two different rules that work two in different ways.


But, I wanted to see if it was a typo as it is the ONLY case, in 11 different alterations of the weapon training ability, that granted more than the basic ability with a +1/+1 increase each iteration.

EVERY other case, altho having different initial values, always increases at +1/+1 at successive gains.

Hence, my question, typo? or the most powerful version of weapon training, even when compared to all other types that require a specific weapon, or that require only one weapon category.

Not that I think +4/+8 at level 17 is too much, only that the gloves of Dueling advance it by +2.

If this is a static +2/+2, ok, but if it is 2 categories, since the only possible advance when the gloves were published was a +1/+1 per category, then it might need clarification.

For the pure fame reqs for a 15k purchase you must be level 6, but you actually have the money if you have them on a chronicle sheet by level 5 or so. so a single item that gives +2/+4 on top of the weapons normal bonuses would definitely get my attention at that point.

For example, STR 18 fighter6(dragoon) with a +1 Flaming Spear (highest fame enchant cost available, 8k) has 2 attacks +12/+7(bab + str +magic +training), doing 2d6 +1d6 fire +9

While the same fighter with just the gloves and a MW weapon has attacks at +14/+9 (bab + Str + MW + training) doing 2d6 + 12(6 str, 6 spear training) 2 point better to hit and 3 pts guaranteed damage vs 1d6.

At lower level, close, but 1-2 points adds up.

EDIT:
Even if it is not a typo, since the weapon training advancement is not +1/+1, we need clarification of the gloves being +2 static or +2 stages.


The way the gloves are written I think the only conclusion could be +2 static since advancing the ability would need that sort of wording included. This is obviously just my opinion also I'm a little loopy since I haven't slept for forever but that seemed like the only way to read it to me. As for the quality etc well ... maybe then again base stats for Spears are pretty mediocre so I figure they need the bonuses =P


TGMaxMaxer:

The Gloves of Dueling do not advance Weapon Training by advancing the effective levels of the ability (such as count your level as 4 higher for the purpose of Weapon Training). It advances Weapon Training by a static amount. As such, any numeric variations in Weapon Training such as +1/+2 do not cause the Gloves of Dueling to change, the bonus from the gloves remains +2/+2.

- Gauss


However, since 2 other ppl have read it that way, I expect that more will interpret it as well.

Gloves of Dueling

Aura faint transmutation; CL 5th

Slot hands; Price 15,000 gp; Weight —

Description

These supple leather gloves grant the wearer gains a +4 bonus to his CMD against disarm attacks, attempts to sunder his wielded weapons, and effects that cause him to lose his grip on his weapons (such as grease). The wearer doesn't drop held weapons when panicked or stunned. If the wearer has the weapon training class feature and is using an appropriate weapon, his weapon training bonus increases by +2.

Construction

Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, greater magic weapon; Cost 7,500 gp

The point of interpretation is ... Does this indeed grant a static +2/+2 or does it grant +2 bonus to his weapon training, which in this case is +2/+4?
At the time it was written, there was no option for +1/+2 per level of weapon training so it wasn't clarified.


2 people marked this as FAQ candidate.

I would still argue that spear training is NOT weapon training for the purpose of dueling gloves. The name is different and the bonuses granted are different. Unlike weapon training, the dragoon doesn't get new weapon groups at 9th, 13th, and 17th . . . another difference.

Gloves of dueling only work with weapon training . . . and to me, it is clearly evident that spear training is not weapon training.

MA


To that, the ability clearly states "a dragoon must select weapon training with the spear group. The dragoon’s weapon training bonus with spears".

It is weapon training, but he has focused it on one weapon instead of scattering it through multiple groups.

Marathon Voter 2013

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

It is weapon training. The ability does not replace weapon training, and they still get weapon training 1 but not 2,3,or 4. It is additional rules that bind weapon training.


TGMaxMaxer wrote:

To that, the ability clearly states "a dragoon must select weapon training with the spear group. The dragoon’s weapon training bonus with spears".

It is weapon training, but he has focused it on one weapon instead of scattering it through multiple groups.

And it provides +1 bonus on attacks/+2 bonus on damage at each level it progresses (5th, 9th, 13th, 17th). Which is different from weapons training. And whereas fighter weapon training gives access to three more groups (at 9th, 13th, and 17th), spear training does not.

It differs . . . and therefore isn't the same thing. Even if it shares the same name in its internal description. Now, if spear training had included the line, "For the purpose of using gloves of dueling, spear training counts as fighter weapon training" there would be no argument. It doesn't. The two are different abilities that appear fairly similar.

MA


TGMaxMaxer:

When it comes to RAW the gloves only grant a +2 bonus. While yes, many people would interpret it differently for their own groups (I might as well) this is a rule forum and thus my comments are based on what is present. What is present is that the gloves grant a +2 bonus if you have Weapon Training. If it stated it advanced weapon training by X level then it would grant +1/+2 per level of weapon training when applied to this ability.

As for whether or not Spear Training is Weapon Training the title of the ability is different but the description references it as Weapon Training. This puts it in a gray area of interpretation. By the title the answer is no. By the description calling it weapon training it is yes. Take your pick since we have no guidance as to which is 'more right'.

- Gauss


To be clear, I don't think that +2/+4 is broken or overpowered since it applies to only one weapon group and they never get any others.

But, as i said before, since there have been people who assumed that it advanced the weapon training bonus in toto, does it grant a +2 bonus to weapon training the class feature, or a +2 bonus to the bonus granted by weapon training the numeric?

Because I can see the arguement, altho I have my opinion on which is RAI, both of them are RAW as the ability at the time did not have any option but +1/+1 each time you got it. So now that a weapon training feature grants +1/+2, it matters. Not a lot for this one, but there may be more in the future.


Here is the description of gloves of dueling from the PFSRD:

Quote:
These supple leather gloves grant the wearer gains a +4 bonus to his CMD against disarm attacks, attempts to sunder his wielded weapons, and effects that cause him to lose his grip on his weapons (such as grease). The wearer doesn't drop held weapons when panicked or stunned. If the wearer has the weapon training class feature and is using an appropriate weapon, his weapon training bonus increases by +2.

And the link gloves of dueling.

I bolded the parts important for this discussion in the text above.

The first question is this: is spear training weapon training? I say no, others say yes. The two are NOT the same, however, and therefore I believe that spear training is not weapon training.

However, even if I am incorrect on that part, the descriptive text of gloves of dueling, where it defines what the item does and what effects it has, specifically says it increases the weapon training bonus by +2. Not that you get a +2 bonus to weapon training, but that it increases your bonus. So, if you are a 9th level dragoon, and you have spear training, and if spear training is the same as fighter weapon training, your normal bonus is +2 on attack rolls and +4 on damage rolls. With the gloves this would be +4/+6. At 17th level it would be +6/+10.

Of course, I do not believe that spear training is weapon training; but if it is, then the gloves do exactly what they say they do. They do not supersede any bonuses, or provide a +2 bonus, or increase weapon training by 2 levels, or whatever. They increase the bonuses provided by weapon training by +2. Simple.

MA


TGMaxMaxer:

I will tell you what I tell everyone. My answers on rules forums are based strictly on my understanding of the rules and have nothing to do with what should or should not occur in people's own games. Whether or not something is broken or overpowered is a dicussion for a non-rules forum. If I am a part of those discussions here it confuses whatever the message is.

As for Gloves of Dueling advancing Weapon Training by '+2'. It states the Weapon Training Bonus. Thus, it does not increase the Weapon Training rank by +2.

APG p305 Gloves of Dueling wrote:
If the wearer has the weapon training class feature and is using an appropriate weapon, his weapon training bonus increases by +2.
CRB p56 Weapon Training wrote:
Whenever he attacks with a weapon from this group, he gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls.

- Gauss


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Looks like a duck.
Quacks like a duck.
I think it's a duck.


Once again, I read it both ways, several other ppl do as well, and as I am not a developer or the author of the text in question, I just think it needs to be tagged by one of them to end the question.

As I said, +2/+4 vs +2/+2 is not really that big a deal, but what if there is another archetype in the future that gets +2/+2 per level? Then the argument is that much more important, and settling it now is better.


So some people think that Spear Training isn't Weapon Training even though it specifically says that it is in the class ability itself? Thats some creative interpretation.

I hit FAQ anyway.

Star Voter 2013

So, how this FAQs works? more or less how many people have to hit the FAQ button for the DEVs noticing it? and how much time do it need to get an answer?

Marathon Voter 2013

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

It's been brought to their attention. I've had a 90+ FAQd post that's still waiting clarification for over a year :p

But! Here's the full text of the ability.

Quote:

Spear Training (Ex)

At 5th level, a dragoon must select weapon training with the spear group. The dragoon’s weapon training bonus with spears improves by +1 on attack rolls and +2 on damage rolls for every four levels beyond 5th (to a maximum of +4 on attack rolls and +8 on damage rolls at 17th level). The dragoon does not gain weapon training in any other groups as he increases in level.

As I mentioned earlier, nowhere in this ability does it say it replaces or modifies weapon training.

In fact, "weapon training 1" isn't mentioned anywhere in the archetype.

What we do see later on is this:

Quote:
Banner (Ex): At 9th level, a dragoon may attach a banner to his lance. This is identical to the cavalier class feature. The bonuses provided by the dragoon's banner increase by +1 for every five levels beyond 9th (to a maximum of +3 at 19th level). Cavalier levels stack with his dragoon level for determining the effect of his banner, and he can take the better banner progression. This ability replaces weapon training 2, 3, and 4.

So it replaces the later entries of Weapon Training.

Keep in mind that the same guy wrote all the Fighter archetypes in UC, and the Spear Training text really differs from the rest. The rest all explicitly replace weapon training 1 (and others), and this one does not explicitly replace weapon training 1. We also see that the ability still mentions weapon training in two places.

So, the two options are either that it's a mistake that Spear Training doesn't replace Weapon Training 1, and the references are also a mistake, or the odd language and non-standard way of presenting it as well as the omission of the replacement of weapon training 1 is on purpose.

Knowing the author, Jason Nelson, I'm inclined to believe this is an intentional decision by him to increase the viability of non-cavalier mounted chargers, trading an animal companion for increased combat abilities. His work in the past has tended to make various martial options quite viable (Sohei, spell sunder, beast totem, the various "thrown weapon buff" items in UE...), so I'm going with that option.

Star Voter 2013

So i suposse i have to be patient. meanwhile in my homegames i rule it to be just like weapon traning stacking with gloves of dueling.


So... your argument is that it doesn't replace weapon training at all, and stacks with it for +2/+3 each iteration?
Since both normal weapon training and spear training are gotten at 5 and increase every 4 thereafter?

I'm down for that valid interpretation too. Meaning, +8/+12 to attack and damage total for this class?

Marathon Voter 2013

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Nope. I simply meant to assert that the class still had weapon training and that that's where the bonuses still come from. Spear Training alters the way that Weapon Training works as well as your choices for weapon training.

Here is what would happen.

5th level: You get Weapon Training 1 and Spear Training. Spear Training restricts your options of what weapon group to use to just Spears. Spear Training modifies the bonus damage from Weapon Training. Your current bonuses with spears are +1 to hit and +2 damage.

At 9th level, you do not gain weapon training 2. However, spear training states that weapon training's bonus increases at this point to +2 / +4.

You now have enough gold for gloves of dueling, and put them on. You now have +4 / +6, as the bonus from gloves of dueling is static.

At 13th level, Spear Training states that you get an increase to your Weapon Training. Weapon Training now gives +3 / +6, which is modified to +5 / + 8 with the gloves of dueling on.

At 17th level, Spear Training states that you get an increase to your Weapon Training. This bonus increases to +4 / + 8. You are wearing your gloves still though (they're probably pretty dirty, you hippy), so the bonuses become +6 / +10.

---

Weapon Training and Spear Training do not stack. Spear Training modifies Weapon Training, which you still possess. The whole point of this weird language is to allow you to use the gloves of the duelist, or to satisfy any other requirements that require "weapon training".


Question: Does spear training modify weapon training? Yes, I believe it does. Does that mean that for the purposes of combining archetypes, you cannot count spear training as weapon training? Why, yes, once again.

Then why on Earth would it count for gloves of dueling? It has been changed, the name is not the same, it does different things . . . which means that it is different from weapon training and therefore the gloves of dueling does not add to spear training.

MA

Marathon Voter 2013

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Perhaps. I gather you wouldn't allow a Weapon Master archetype fighter to use the gloves of dueling either, since their Weapon Training is different from the base fighter's?

The dragoon still fundamentally has weapon training, and weapon training is still the ability that gives them the bonus, but there is still some merit to applying the Archetype Combination Logic to this.

I would be more convinced otherwise if we could come up with other reasons for this seasoned freelancer who got it right in the other archetypes to use such strange language?


Cheapy wrote:

Perhaps. I gather you wouldn't allow a Weapon Master archetype fighter to use the gloves of dueling either, since their Weapon Training is different from the base fighter's?

The dragoon still fundamentally has weapon training, and weapon training is still the ability that gives them the bonus, but there is still some merit to applying the Archetype Combination Logic to this.

I would be more convinced otherwise if we could come up with other reasons for this seasoned freelancer who got it right in the other archetypes to use such strange language?

No, because it is not the same as fighter weapon training. It does not give a bonus to CMB and CMD (vs. sunder and disarm).

Not the same = different. Different means it is not the fighter class ability weapon training. Gloves of dueling only works with the fighter class ability weapon training.

Simple.

MA

Marathon Voter 2013

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

And were it to give those bonuses to CMB and CMD vs the CMs?

Would you rule that a simple restriction of the weapons to be chosen would be enough to make it no longer weapon training?

Star Voter 2013

Why doesn't give those bonues MA it only list the differences.


Cheapy wrote:

And were it to give those bonuses to CMB and CMD vs the CMs?

Would you rule that a simple restriction of the weapons to be chosen would be enough to make it no longer weapon training?

Yep. It would need to be a weapon group. Of course, the whole thing could be fixed with the addition of nineteen words to that archetype's ability: "This class ability counts as fighter weapon training for the purpose of using the magic item gloves of dueling."

MA


Talonhawke wrote:
Why doesn't give those bonues MA it only list the differences.

Nope. Reach the archetype again, Talonhawke. It lists what it does, not the differences. At least for Weapon Master. And that list does not include bonuses on CMB and CMD. Now, they gain an earlier ability that replicates those bonuses on CMB and CMD, but once again, that distinguishes the archetype class feature from the class ability fighter weapon training.

MA

Marathon Voter 2013

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

So if this hypothetical ability said "You must choose weapon training in flails.", you'd let them be able to still use the gloves to get the +2 to the weapon training bonus?

Also, they can't just call out the gloves, as that would require adding more words (the book it's from, as well as the page number), and they would probably be savvy enough to make it a more general statement, so that if there are other items that needed weapon training to work, this ability would work with those too.


Cheapy wrote:

So if this hypothetical ability said "You must choose weapon training in flails.", you'd let them be able to still use the gloves to get the +2 to the weapon training bonus?

Also, they can't just call out the gloves, as that would require adding more words (the book it's from, as well as the page number), and they would probably be savvy enough to make it a more general statement, so that if there are other items that needed weapon training to work, this ability would work with those too.

You can keep throwing out hypotheticals until the cows come home, but if the ability is not the same as fighter weapon training (bonuses to attack and damage, selection of weapons groups, and bonuses to CMB and CMD), then it is not the same.

And since gloves of dueling only work with fighter weapon training, that means they do not function with any other ability, no matter how closely that ability resembles fighter weapon training.

It is not hard to understand.

MA


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

If it doesn't replace weapon training 1, then the archetype still has it.
Altered weapon training is still weapon training.
Just like wildblooded bloodlines are still bloodlines.
Variant Channeling is still channel.
Controlled Rage is still rage.


blackbloodtroll wrote:

If it doesn't replace weapon training 1, then the archetype still has it.

Altered weapon training is still weapon training.
Just like wildblooded bloodlines are still bloodlines.
Variant Channeling is still channel.
Controlled Rage is still rage.

Very good point. The archetype does not say that it replaces Weapon Training 1, so the Dragoon still has class feature (as modified by Spear Training).

Star Voter 2013

master arminas wrote:
Talonhawke wrote:
Why doesn't give those bonues MA it only list the differences.

Nope. Reach the archetype again, Talonhawke. It lists what it does, not the differences. At least for Weapon Master. And that list does not include bonuses on CMB and CMD. Now, they gain an earlier ability that replicates those bonuses on CMB and CMD, but once again, that distinguishes the archetype class feature from the class ability fighter weapon training.

MA

Then please explain what weapon training the dragoon is choosing.

Star Voter 2013

Bump. Maybe with acouple of more people hitted the FAQ button this question could be answered.

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