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Hello, while working on a new character I ran into a few interesting questions with a few things that seem barely legal concerning the Eldritch Heritage feat line. The character is going to be an Inquisitor and when I stumbled over Eldritch Heritage I got the idea to use that to give him a familiar. Some kind of bird like a hawk he can use to better hunt enemies of the faith. That seemed straightforward enough, fulfill the prerequisites for Eldritch Heritage and choose the 1st level bloodline power of the arcane bloodline.
However, then I saw that there is also Improved and Greater Eldritch Heritage and that's where it starts to get suspicious.
Improved Eldritch Heritage says: "You gain either the 3rd-level or the 9th-level power (your choice) of the bloodline you selected with the Eldritch Heritage feat."
The 9th-level power of the arcane bloodline is:
New Arcana (Ex): At 9th level, you can add any one spell from the sorcerer/wizard spell list to your list of spells known. This spell must be of a level that you are capable of casting. You can also add one additional spell at 13th level and 17th level.
Okay, the effective sorcerer level for the bloodline abilities you get through the feats is character level -2 but even at 11th, 15th and 19th level and only for classes with a "list of spells known" three picks from the sorcerer/wizard list seem pretty powerful, especially for divine casters who don't have to worry about arcane spell failure. While it seems legal per rules as written as far as I can tell I'd really like to know if it works as intended.
Hello, while working on a new character I ran into a few interesting questions with a few things that seem barely legal concerning the Eldritch Heritage feat line. The character is going to be an Inquisitor and when I stumbled over Eldritch Heritage I got the idea to use that to give him a familiar. Some kind of bird like a hawk he can use to better hunt enemies of the faith. That seemed straightforward enough, fulfill the prerequisites for Eldritch Heritage and choose the 1st level bloodline power of the arcane bloodline.
However, then I saw that there is also Improved and Greater Eldritch Heritage and that's where it starts to get suspicious.Improved Eldritch Heritage says: "You gain either the 3rd-level or the 9th-level power (your choice) of the bloodline you selected with the Eldritch Heritage feat."
The 9th-level power of the arcane bloodline is:
New Arcana (Ex): At 9th level, you can add any one spell from the sorcerer/wizard spell list to your list of spells known. This spell must be of a level that you are capable of casting. You can also add one additional spell at 13th level and 17th level.
Okay, the effective sorcerer level for the bloodline abilities you get through the feats is character level -2 but even at 11th, 15th and 19th level and only for classes with a "list of spells known" three picks from the sorcerer/wizard list seem pretty powerful, especially for divine casters who don't have to worry about arcane spell failure. While it seems legal per rules as written as far as I can tell I'd really like to know if it works as intended.
Personally I'd be open to allowing it depending on your spell choices however I believe you'll find the RAW sticking point is this
"This spell must be of a level that you are capable of casting."
you are not capable of casting any wiz/sorc spells of any level so in effect the ability is a waste for a divine caster unless you have level that grant you arcane caster levels.
Personally I'd be open to allowing it depending on your spell choices however I believe you'll find the RAW sticking point is this
"This spell must be of a level that you are capable of casting."
you are not capable of casting any wiz/sorc spells of any level so in effect the ability is a waste for a divine caster unless you have level that grant you arcane caster levels.
I disagree, that bloodline power only talks about the level of the spells, not if you can or can not normally cast it.
Of course the arcane bloodli was writted before the feat, so maybe is unintentional.
Ask yourself this, are spell slots tied to a class or can you use them for any spell ?
looking at it another way if you have a level of sorc and a level of cleric can you use your cleric spell slots to cast sorc spells ?
so as a divine caster the question is can you cast arcane spells of level 1,2 3 etc ? and the answer is no you can't.
There are domains that grant otherwise arcane spells, and Oracle mysteries that do the same. Having a few wizard/sorcerer spells as a divine caster is not game breaking, though the fact you can choose those few spells does make it somewhat more of an issue.
It requires a rather high CHA for any non-CHA based character though, and it requires three feats (or 2 for a half-elf). So it seems like somewhat fair payment.
The main issue is thematically I do not see how it would work, being descended from a dragon (simplified statement) will in no way convince your deity to give you arcane spells without some refluffing.
Balance wise I do not see a problem really, though I might want the spells to be at least a little thematic for the faith.
It works better for an oracle.
The main issue is thematically I do not see how it would work, being descended from a dragon (simplified statement) will in no way convince your deity to give you arcane spells without some refluffing.
Balance wise I do not see a problem really, though I might want the spells to be at least a little thematic for the faith.
I don't think the deity has anything to do with it, it's the eldritch heritage that just lets the spells pop into your head.
Of course, the deity might have some issues with that, but then she might as well be opposed to the concept of multi-classing.And, being a divine being, she may have known well before her cleric that he descended from a dragon...
There are domains that grant otherwise arcane spells, and Oracle mysteries that do the same. Having a few wizard/sorcerer spells as a divine caster is not game breaking, though the fact you can choose those few spells does make it somewhat more of an issue.
It requires a rather high CHA for any non-CHA based character though, and it requires three feats (or 2 for a half-elf). So it seems like somewhat fair payment.
cept the wiz/sorc spells on domain/mystery lists aren't exactly the "choice" spells you want of the wiz/sorc list
Also -2 works in your favour because your a spell level higher when you choose your first spell at 11th instead of 9th.
Just take a look at any of the target "You" wiz/sorc spells and how they can really put the power on certain divine self buffing 3/4BAB d8 melee builds.
e.g. Mirror Image + Giant Form I + Battle oracle or Battle Cleric melee monster
and that's just off the top of my head ;)
The main issue is thematically I do not see how it would work, being descended from a dragon (simplified statement) will in no way convince your deity to give you arcane spells without some refluffing.
Balance wise I do not see a problem really, though I might want the spells to be at least a little thematic for the faith.
I don't think the deity has anything to do with it, it's the eldritch heritage that just lets the spells pop into your head.
Of course, the deity might have some issues with that, but then she might as well be opposed to the concept of multi-classing.
And, being a divine being, she may have known well before her cleric that he descended from a dragon...
That would be agreeable though the spells would still be divine and a non-caster or lesser caster would not get it. It is certainly dependent on your divine spellcasting prowess which has nothing to do with your blood gift.
That would be agreeable though the spells would still be divine and a non-caster or lesser caster would not get it. It is certainly dependent on your divine spellcasting prowess which has nothing to do with your blood gift.
Why would the spells be divine? Nothing in the feat description says that you have to be a caster to select the feat. The eldritch heritage gives you a tiny bit of arcane... stuff that you can use to cast a spell, no matter what class you are. It even makes more sense for characters without arcane spellcasting; why would a wizard select improved arcane heritage, to get a spell he could learn anyway? (And waste 3 feats for it.)
That would be agreeable though the spells would still be divine and a non-caster or lesser caster would not get it. It is certainly dependent on your divine spellcasting prowess which has nothing to do with your blood gift.Why would the spells be divine? Nothing in the feat description says that you have to be a caster to select the feat. The eldritch heritage gives you a tiny bit of arcane... stuff that you can use to cast a spell, no matter what class you are. It even makes more sense for characters without arcane spellcasting; why would a wizard select improved arcane heritage, to get a spell he could learn anyway? (And waste 3 feats for it.)
your list is a divine list, you don't get a second list of arcane spells because if you did you'd have no arcane spell slots to cast them with.
also keep in mind bloodlines were designed for sorcerers not anyone else, the heritage feats came after bloodlines
I'd say a divine caster could benefit from the feat. It tells you to pick a sorcerer/wizard spell and add it to your list of spells known. OK, well, I'm a cleric. I have list of spells known: it's the cleric spell list. It happens to be the spell list of a divine spellcasting class. Oh well. Whatever spell I chose was added to the list of a divine spellcasting class I possess and since it's a divine spell list, you could thus use it. What determines if a spell is arcane or divine is the class(es) of the caster; cure light wounds is an arcane spell when a bard casts it, but divine if my cleric casts it.
Arcane sorcerers are not descended from dragons their fluff is that they are descended from a line of arcane casters.
I do not see a strong case for the arcane bloodline to affect his divinely granted spells, I'd allow it for arcane casters and yes it is useless for wizards, so that leaves sorcerers and partial casters. No need to empower divine casters more anyway, they already have better saves, BAB, more hp besides armor, shield and weapon proficiencies that are superior as well as the ability to cast with armor and shield.
Ofcourse some other bloodlines are also better balanced for arcane casters, a strength bonus is much better for almost any other kind of character so perhaps the greater benefit for divine casters isn't a solid argument, I'd probably have players make their case and intentions clear before deciding to allow it or not.
EDIT: I do not know there even is a RAI for this particular use of Eldritch Heritage, it might just be something the developers haven't considered. The feat chain as is, seems a bit too popular a choice making me think it is a bit too powerful compared to other feats in general. Personally I somewhat dislike stealing the sorcerer's 'coolness', and it seems prone to abuse or restricting the development of alternate sorcerer bloodlines, now you always have to consider what an arcane bloodline might do for every single class to preserve balance.
Hm, it didn't even occur to me to read it like that. For me it was a pretty straightforward "if you have a list of spells known and can cast spells of a certain level you can add a sorcerer/wizard spell of that level." Of course, originally the ability was meant for sorcerers only and that's how the rules were written but know they are a bit unspecific.
As to why a patron deity would grant spells of a different class list (outside of domains, mysteries etc.) is a good question. Especially since the Inquisitor is going to be a Heretic (Ultimate Magic archetype) who doesn't have one. Since he's kind of an Aasimar it could be explained as being an opposite kind of arcane/divine hybrid to the celestial bloodline sorcerer.
I think probably the most useful thing anyone can take out of this thread is "Ask your GM" there is no definitive answer only cases for and against.
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I'm currently using it for a clouded-vision oracle.
Eldritch Heritage (lore): familiar
Improved Familiar: pseudodragon
Improved Eldritch Heritage (lore): share senses as the first spell chosen. The other two can be something else. It's not important.
Seeing-eye pseudodragon familiar. :D
I think probably the most useful thing anyone can take out of this thread is "Ask your GM" there is no definitive answer only cases for and against.
True, but that applies to almost everything anyways. :)
I'm currently using it for a clouded-vision oracle.
Eldritch Heritage (lore): familiar
Improved Familiar: pseudodragon
Improved Eldritch Heritage (lore): share senses as the first spell chosen. The other two can be something else. It's not important.Seeing-eye pseudodragon familiar. :D
That's...brilliant.O_O Even though I would go with a more classical (celestial) bird.
That's...brilliant.O_O Even though I would go with a more classical (celestial) bird.
I had to stay true to the image that inspired the character:
If it makes you feel any better, Paladins get a feat that lets them grab 4 spells (1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th) from other casters and add it to their spell list. Unsanctioned Knowledge. Divine power? Yeah, we got that. :)
EDIT: Also, Paladins with Mirror Image; Displacement; and Entropic Shield, for those Paladins who need even more tanking potential. :P
The issue I have with this is that if you have two spellcasting classes you have two lists of spells known and if you follow this train of thought you could cast any of your spell known with any spellslot of the same level.
I like the eldrich heritage (arcane) to get a familiar but the improved version makes no sense for someone without arcane caster levels.
While I would allow a ceric with an arcane bond via eldrich heritage to cast any one cleric spell per day through his bonded item I'd not allow this idea to get arcane spells as a divine caster.
No matter if it's RAW, RAI or HR.
EDIT: I do not know there even is a RAI for this particular use of Eldritch Heritage, it might just be something the developers haven't considered. The feat chain as is, seems a bit too popular a choice making me think it is a bit too powerful compared to other feats in general.The developers simply can't conceive of every possible way a feat can be munchkined or rules lawyered. Unlike the folks at Paradigm, they don't seem to think this way.
And yes, I'm considering either strictly limiting or banning the feat tree entirely in my home campaigns.
It's clear there are some questions about how this works, and obviously the developers can't consider everything. But "divine casters" isn't some obscure group who couldn't have been anticipated; it's about a 3rd of the classes out there. I also find it hard to believe that the devs failed to think about the most common, default bloodline when giving out bloodline powers.
You have an odd definition of munchkining - that term seems to mean "using a feat to be more powerful." It's not like the meaning is being twisted or it's some odd corner case with a combination of feats interacting strangely. Now if you want to ban it, that's fine, of course.
Taking a feat with pretty stiff level and stat requirements to get 3 spells known that aren't going to be more powerful than what you have now, since they're of a level you can cast, and if you're a 6 level caster like inquisitor it's going to be even less powerful because in general an Inquisitor's 4th level spells are more powerful than a sorceror's 4th level spells, is it that big a deal?
If a player in my group wants to pay a 3 feat tax and have a charisma of 15 with a class that doesn't really have a bunch of spare feats and doesn't require any sort of charisma, then more (less?) power to them.
While it seems legal per rules as written as far as I can tell I'd really like to know if it works as intended.
1st, I don't think it's overpowered. You're spending 2 feats to benefit from it and they're all cast 1 level behind anyone else.
2nd, I don't see why you wouldn't gain them. They would be added to your list of spells known. However, they would not be arcane spells when cast if you are a divine caster. You would add them to your Oracle, or Inquisitor spell list of spells known, transferring them to your spell list (which is what the feat is actually doing). You would then pretend you have spell X on your spell list, and that you have it as a spell known. You would cast it as you normally would for your class (no-spell failure, etc...).
Finally, since it states you "must be of a level that you are capable of casting" means that you can only choose a spell at the level of which YOU can cast. So, at 11th level you couldn't choose a 5th or 6th level spell (as you can't cast them). Even if you could choose a spell higher than your level, it would get etched to 'spells known' not 'spells per day' so you couldn't cast it anyway. In this, its not a big deal. You get a 4th level sorcerer/wizard spell at 11th level... whoop!
So yeah, good, but not so good for an Inquisitor.