My DM likes to put in over the top NPC's into his campaigns to help us out and keep the party going in the right direction. My problem is every time he brings one in they just dont seem right. They are too powerful and i cant figure out how hes doing it. Right now he has introduced a Gunslinger to the party, i thought hey cool a little added DPS. the Gunslinger is lvl 3 and already has a to hit over 15 or 16. when going up against my Synth build also lvl 3 with 2 claw attacks w/ reach, a bite attack and pounce he still smokes me everytime. is there a legitimate way for him to have such a high to hit because i cant figure it out.
Edit: oh and i have to hit low to mid 20's just to hit him.
Does he have a 34 Dexterity? Then yes.
It could just be that he's going against the touch AC, which will be lower, giving the appearance of a higher to-hit. Other than ability to attack at a slightly longer range, there's really no reason he should be outperforming your summoner. He can't add any damage at this level yet.
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Sounds like bad DM'ing IMO. A DMPC or party active NPC should NEVER hog the spotlight. Generally, it should be the no doubt weakest character in the party.
EDIT: This post went into the completely wrong thread.
Oh, btw, and even if you went primary/secondary based on class, it would be hard to determine. What are the three primary for a paladin? Cha, str and... what? For monk? Str, Wis, and... what? For a wizard, Int and... what?
Paladin - strength, charisma, and pick your choice for the kind of paladin you want for the third. A fencer or archer might be charisma, dexterity & intelligence, for example. Usually charisma, strength, and either constitution or dexterity dominate, though.
Monk - strength, wisdom, dexterity, constitution. Yes that's four, and yes that's why monks have problems sometimes.
Wizard - Intelligence and take your choice for the kind of wizard you want to play.
Well since the highest starting stat you could potentially have is 20 after racial modifiers, I doubt he has 34 in anything. No, I figured he DM'd the character because he has an ego and wants the spotlight. I just posted in here in case there was a way to make it that i didn't know and he was just min/maxing. Sounds like I may just drop. I hate being in a group where everyone cant have their moment, and in this one the only person to get a moment is the DM. with that being said anyone have an open spot in their campaign for a new player? Preferrably in the new england area :).
the Gunslinger is lvl 3 and already has a to hit over 15 or 16. when going up against my Synth build also lvl 3 with 2 claw attacks w/ reach, a bite attack and pounce he still smokes me everytime. is there a legitimate way for him to have such a high to hit because i cant figure it out.
Base attack bonus: +3
Dexterity 20 (18 base, +2 racial): +5Masterwork firearm: +1 (gunslinger can make his starting weapon masterwork for 300gp, or for free from Heirloom Weapon trait)
Weapon Focus feat: +1
Dazzling Display feat: +0 (but needed for Dramatic Display)
Dramatic Display feat: +2
Heirloom Weapon trait: +1
Thats only +13 though, and requires the gunslinger to be human (as 3 feats are used - the 1st and 3rd level feats, and the human bonus feat.)
Well at third level lets see.
780 gp, Heroic Ranged NPC should only have a 15 dex, but lets assume he has a 20.
Now he has a +3 BAB and a 20 Dex. Thats a +8 to hit off the top
+1 to Hit from Heirlom Weapon Trait
+1 to hit from Weapon Focus
+1 to hit from Masterwork firearm
+1 to hit from Point Blank shot
Thats a +12 to hit with some cheese. Remember this is also a touch attack. While the above is cheesy and breaks the NPC rules its by no means super cheese.
His AC is easy.
10 +3 Armor (Studded Leather) + 5 Dex + 1 Nimble + 1 (Dodge Feat) =
20 AC.
Edit: Forgot about Masterwork.
what book is Dramatic display in?
the Gunslinger is lvl 3 and already has a to hit over 15 or 16. when going up against my Synth build also lvl 3 with 2 claw attacks w/ reach, a bite attack and pounce he still smokes me everytime. is there a legitimate way for him to have such a high to hit because i cant figure it out.Base attack bonus: +3
Dexterity 20 (18 base, +2 racial): +5
Masterwork firearm: +1 (gunslinger can make his starting weapon masterwork for 300gp, or for free from Heirloom Weapon trait)
Weapon Focus feat: +1
Dazzling Display feat: +0 (but needed for Dramatic Display)
Dramatic Display feat: +2
Heirloom Weapon trait: +1Thats only +13 though, and requires the gunslinger to be human (as 3 feats are used - the 1st and 3rd level feats, and the human bonus feat.)
Could replace 1 level of Gunslinger with Urban Barbarian for Controlled Rage. That would bump up to +15.
what book is Dramatic display in?
Ultimate Combat. Its specifically for performance combat, so might not work.
I may be missing something - I'm not terribly familiar with these rules - but doesn't dramatic display require you to be in a performance combat? I'm aware there's a feat you can use to get around this limitation, but as you pointed out, you've run out of feat slots.
In order to qualify as a performance combat, there needs to be a crowd, with a minimum of 2 people watching. As long as that condition is met, any combat can be a performance combat (I believe).
But as the OP didn't say what kind of combat, or any other situations. Just that the gunslinger was getting +15 to +16 on attack rolls, and asked if there was a legitimate way to get a bonus that high.
But assuming its not performance combat:
Base attack bonus: +3
Dexterity 20 (18 base, +2 racial): +5
Masterwork firearm: +1 (gunslinger can make his starting weapon masterwork for 300gp, or for free from Heirloom Weapon trait)
Weapon Focus feat: +1
Point Blank Shot feat: +1
Small size: +1
Heirloom Weapon trait: +1
Still a +13, and requires a small race instead of a human. So its at least possible to get close to a +15 bonus on attack rolls as a 3rd level gunslinger. As Serisan said, if the character was instead a multiclassed Gunslinger 2/Urban Barbarian 1, you can get a +15 bonus.
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I'm pretty sure it's strongly implied that the crowd needs to be non-participants.
This may sound naive or overly simple, but the OP is taking into consideration that firearm attacks are touch attacks, right? Some of that +15 isn't just that he's ignoring armor?
This may sound naive or overly simple, but the OP is taking into consideration that firearm attacks are touch attacks, right? Some of that +15 isn't just that he's ignoring armor?
DM/GM rolling 1D20 + 15? seems strange, the DMPC might also be build with a higher point buy than the PC.
Surprised no one corrected the calculations ~ Heirloom weapon was errata'd a goodly while ago, here is the current version:
You carry a non-masterwork simple or martial weapon that has been passed down from generation to generation in your family.
*Benefit: When you select this trait, choose one of the following benefits:
proficiency with that specific weapon
a +1 trait bonus on attacks of opportunity with that specific weapon
a +2 trait bonus on one kind of combat maneuver when using that specific weapon.
Note: You pay the standard gp cost for the weapon.so non-masterwork, and no +1 to hit.
-2 from any calculations adding it in above.
Not in the FAQ/help section, so...
... are you having fun? That's the main thing.
As a GM, you can do anything you want to keep the play group active, interested and generally enjoying things. When DMing for a particularly experienced or intelligent group you sometimes have to fudge things or even invent new monster types.
We also have to keep in mind that he's probably making assumptiongs on the to-hit bonus. If he doesn't know how gunslingers work, he's probably just assuming it's not a touch-attack. Which, when you bring that into play probably accounts for half of the assumed attack bonus.
It's not up to the players to try to analyse NPC's and break-down their stats. It specifically says in DM Guides that players need to stick to in-game thought processes and not meta-think.
If it's causing a trouble for fun or overall enjoyment, then you should probably be having a much larger discussion with your GM than a single NPC's 'guessed at' bonuses...
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Not in the FAQ/help section, so...Surprised no one corrected the calculations ~ Heirloom weapon was errata'd a goodly while ago, here is the current version:
You carry a non-masterwork simple or martial weapon that has been passed down from generation to generation in your family.
*Benefit: When you select this trait, choose one of the following benefits:
proficiency with that specific weapon
a +1 trait bonus on attacks of opportunity with that specific weapon
a +2 trait bonus on one kind of combat maneuver when using that specific weapon.
Note: You pay the standard gp cost for the weapon.so non-masterwork, and no +1 to hit.
-2 from any calculations adding it in above.
But it is in the errata section, so...
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My DM likes to put in over the top NPC's into his campaigns to help us out and keep the party going in the right direction. My problem is every time he brings one in they just dont seem right. They are too powerful and i cant figure out how hes doing it. Right now he has introduced a Gunslinger to the party, i thought hey cool a little added DPS. the Gunslinger is lvl 3 and already has a to hit over 15 or 16. when going up against my Synth build also lvl 3 with 2 claw attacks w/ reach, a bite attack and pounce he still smokes me everytime. is there a legitimate way for him to have such a high to hit because i cant figure it out.
Edit: oh and i have to hit low to mid 20's just to hit him.
Okay, I got this. Take a level of cleric, get the party on board, capture and sacrifice the over-powered npcs to your goddess: the (newly revealed) sister of Lamashtu, she is the devourer of over-powered npcs!
But assuming its not performance combat:
Base attack bonus: +3
Dexterity 20 (18 base, +2 racial): +5
Masterwork firearm: +1 (gunslinger can make his starting weapon masterwork for 300gp, or for free from Heirloom Weapon trait)
Weapon Focus feat: +1
Point Blank Shot feat: +1
Small size: +1
Heirloom Weapon trait: +1Still a +13, and requires a small race instead of a human. So its at least possible to get close to a +15 bonus on attack rolls as a 3rd level gunslinger. As Serisan said, if the character was instead a multiclassed Gunslinger 2/Urban Barbarian 1, you can get a +15 bonus.
Heirloom Weapon was nerfed, no +1 for that. But you could use Goblin as the race. They're small and have +4 dex, so dex can be 22, to still end up with +13.
From there, there's buffs to go further, like Bless for +1 or inspire courage, don't really know the scenario. The Urban Barb dip would get you there, as said.
It's possible, but that's a LOT of specializing and min/maxing for the DM to be investing in...
first off I understand that Gunslingers hit against touch AC. The plus 15 to hit has nothing to do with that. He has him running around with 2 double barrelled pistols primary hand hit for +11(+15 - 4 for both barrels) and his off hand hits at +8 (+15 - 4 for both barrels - 3 for off hand). which in and of itself is wrong unless he has two weapon fighting feats. His race is human.
i wouldnt mind if he was actually there to help, but we dont need help. Ultimately this characters true purpose is to outshine everyone so the DM can brag. I play because its the only local game i know of.
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Cheating DM's with show-boating DMPCs are bad.
Run a game yourself, show him how it's done.
Cheating DM's with show-boating DMPCs are bad.
Run a game yourself, show him how it's done.
Force him to play a -24 PB commoner while you show off a 102 PB Gestalt badass.
I smell cheese.
Sounds to me that this gunslinger isn't 3rd level.
Simple solution though, if you don't like the gunslinger then don't have them as member of the party. Send the NPC packing. It's an NPC so no big effect.
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The GM needs to learn how to plan encounters better. If he is new it might take a while. If he has been GM'ing for a while then he should be told that you would rather have appropriate encounters, than NPC backup.
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I may talk to the group about sending the NPC packing. If the DM gets upset about not having a a PC to showoff with he may just increase the encounters to try for a TPW, but if thats the case ill just stop playing his campaigns. i will talk to him first though and see if he can legit explain his superstar Gunslinger. I've asked before but he just dodges around it or uses the "rules only say this so technically i can do that" method but then refuses to let others do it as its to powerful or not allowed because the rules dont explicitely allow it. I always loved that double standard. i think all and all im just really getting fed up with it. it was ok at first but now that its the same thing, with this being i believe my 4th campaign with him its just tiresome. HINT: all our campaigns end early because people drop out.
Waithstrike: hes not a new DM hes just an ego-centric a$$hat that has to always have a way to make himself feel better then those around him. Prolly why he likes do DM.
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I'd not play with that DM at all.
EDIT: Just noticed I can favorite my own posts. Oh, the egocentric in me is crying with joy! I may just get a new hobby >:D
I may talk to the group about sending the NPC packing. If the DM gets upset about not having a a PC to showoff with he may just increase the encounters to try for a TPW, but if thats the case ill just stop playing his campaigns. i will talk to him first though and see if he can legit explain his superstar Gunslinger. I've asked before but he just dodges around it or uses the "rules only say this so technically i can do that" method but then refuses to let others do it as its to powerful or not allowed because the rules dont explicitely allow it. I always loved that double standard. i think all and all im just really getting fed up with it. it was ok at first but now that its the same thing, with this being i believe my 4th campaign with him its just tiresome. HINT: all our campaigns end early because people drop out.
Waithstrike: hes not a new DM hes just an ego-centric a$$hat that has to always have a way to make himself feel better then those around him. Prolly why he likes do DM.
I think that is the best way to handle it. A GM can't run a game without players.
Well since the highest starting stat you could potentially have is 20 after racial modifiers, I doubt he has 34 in anything. No, I figured he DM'd the character because he has an ego and wants the spotlight. I just posted in here in case there was a way to make it that i didn't know and he was just min/maxing. Sounds like I may just drop. I hate being in a group where everyone cant have their moment, and in this one the only person to get a moment is the DM. with that being said anyone have an open spot in their campaign for a new player? Preferrably in the new england area :).
We have a slot open but you'd have to fly out to Seattle every other Sunday. I can pick you up at the airport and I wouldn't charge for gas :)
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Cheating DM's with show-boating DMPCs are bad.
Run a game yourself, show him how it's done.
I'll just give up on my usual, measured, social advice and say: run.
But this I mean both "run away from this GM" and "run your own game, taking pains to avoid this behavior yourself."
This one really sticks in my craw. A GM who feels the need to include an effectively dominant protagonist avatar of themselves in their own game has fundamentally failed their mandate. I have never heard of this being done well. A good DMPC can save a one-on-one game, but the idea that he is actually dueling the PCs and winning...
oh sweet jaysus that makes me mad.
Yeah, the more i talk about it on here and read my comment, the more i realise how bad it really is. I keep making excuses because i want to play and this is the only local game i have been able to find. DMing is probably the way i should go, but i would like to find another game to join because the simple act of creating a character and their story is the funnest part of the game imho.
Well when all is said and done i appreciate you all listenning to me b+#+@ and help me out. Thank you.
Yeah, the more i talk about it on here and read my comment, the more i realise how bad it really is. I keep making excuses because i want to play and this is the only local game i have been able to find. DMing is probably the way i should go, but i would like to find another game to join because the simple act of creating a character and their story is the funnest part of the game imho.
Well when all is said and done i appreciate you all listenning to me b@+&$ and help me out. Thank you.
Play on the Internet?
Look at DMing as creating a million characters and stories :)
Yeah, the more i talk about it on here and read my comment, the more i realise how bad it really is. I keep making excuses because i want to play and this is the only local game i have been able to find. DMing is probably the way i should go, but i would like to find another game to join because the simple act of creating a character and their story is the funnest part of the game imho.
Well when all is said and done i appreciate you all listenning to me b%@*+ and help me out. Thank you.
You are welcome. Where in the world are you, if I may ask?
I'd suggest trying out DM'ing, potentially for that group (excluding the DM, explicitly or implicitly). I mean, even IF you had a hard time grasping the DM'ing job, it can't get much worse than now. :D
Potentially, you've learned a great deal about what NOT to do by gaming with this group. :)
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Yeah, the more i talk about it on here and read my comment, the more i realise how bad it really is. I keep making excuses because i want to play and this is the only local game i have been able to find. DMing is probably the way i should go, but i would like to find another game to join because the simple act of creating a character and their story is the funnest part of the game imho.
Well when all is said and done i appreciate you all listenning to me b&#+@ and help me out. Thank you.
You should definitely have a talk with him. If he doesn't want to do what I did. Offer to DM to the group and people who have left in the past.
Good luck, I feel your pain, because I've been there lol
I have no problem with playing online other then if you use herolab id have to talk via Vent or skype to plan my char because im cheap and dont want to pay 30 dollars. i do have d20pro installed if you use that and have quest passes. I live in the New England area.
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Surprised no one corrected the calculations ~ Heirloom weapon was errata'd a goodly while ago,
so non-masterwork, and no +1 to hit.
You have a caster cast masterwork transformation upon it. The non-masterwork weapon becomes masterwork.
-James
James,
Cheaper to do it yourself, since Gunsmithing lets the gunslinger make his starting weapon masterwork for only 300 gp.
And that was included in the calculations. But they were also including the now-dead +1 trait bonus to hit from the old version of heirloom weapon in their calculations...
Pushing his WbL might include a +2 Dex belt for another +1 to hit...
I have no problem with playing online other then if you use herolab id have to talk via Vent or skype to plan my char because im cheap and dont want to pay 30 dollars. i do have d20pro installed if you use that and have quest passes. I live in the New England area.
Ah, shame as I am in the Old England area. The games I play online at are on the boards here, as my hours are irregular. I'm sure there must be other players in your area, though.
Spell/Potion of Cat's Grace will push those calculations from +13 to +15.
- Gauss
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Yeah, the more i talk about it on here and read my comment, the more i realise how bad it really is. I keep making excuses because i want to play and this is the only local game i have been able to find. DMing is probably the way i should go, but i would like to find another game to join because the simple act of creating a character and their story is the funnest part of the game imho.
Well when all is said and done i appreciate you all listenning to me b%~!# and help me out. Thank you.
Once you decide to start a group of your own, possibly mining the current group for good players, you can look at those people and start asking if anyone else would like to run also. Switch GMs every week or run 2-3 weeks in succession before switching to the other's campaign.
My group has been running 2 campaigns at a time, alternating between them, for years. Helps to allow the GMs to play and decreases GM burnout...mostly. Good luck and happy hunting brother.
alch 2, barb 1 human
(note: extremely lopsided character and won't work half of the time)
strength 20
potion of bull strength(accelerated drinker) 24
mutagen 28
rage 32
enlarge person 34
weapon focus
power attack
furious focus
heirloom weapon greatsword
to hit
12(from strength)
-1 (size)
1 (wf)
1 (mw)
2 (bab)
+15 to hit
damage:
3d6+21
(this isn't really optimized considering how easy it would be to kill this character and the fact he's not using his bite or claws)
I don't know how he's doing that with a gunslinger without over the top wealth and/or house rules.
Black Lantern, just replace human w/ goblin, "barbarian" with "urban barbarian" (can rage for +4 dex), enlarge person w/ reduce person, and bull's strength with cat's grace. And heirloom weapon w/ MW weapon....heirloom weapon was nerfed into the ground, doesn't really do anything now.
Alch 2, Barb 1 Goblin
Dex 22
Potion of Cat's Grace (Accelerated Drinker) 26
Reduce Person 28
Mutagen 32
Rage 36
Weapon Focus
Masterwork gun
To hit:
2 (BAB)
13 (Dex)
2 (size)
1 (MW)
1 (Weapon Focus)
Total: +19
And yes, that is ridiculously optimized and reliant on consumable items and a 15 min. adventuring day. And the damage is crap.
