@ Reynard_the_fox:
I don't think you get 5 attacks on a pounce, since rake won't work on the same turn:
"A monster with the rake ability must begin its turn already grappling to use its rake—it can’t begin a grapple and rake in the same turn."
@ Reynard_the_fox:
I don't think you get 5 attacks on a pounce, since rake won't work on the same turn:
"A monster with the rake ability must begin its turn already grappling to use its rake—it can’t begin a grapple and rake in the same turn."
Go read pounce.
Wow, then I agree, this makes cats really good with smite evil.
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Yeah, with Superior and Augment Summoning, you can use SMIV to get (on average) 3 leopards. Each can smite, charge, pounce, and rake, giving you a grand total (not including flanking bonuses) of 15 attacks at +8: 3 bites with 1d6 + 8 + grab and 12 claws with 1d3 + 8. These then get to stick around for another bunch of turns, getting in the way of enemies, maybe grappling, and getting a lot of attacks of opportunities. Seems good.
Note: since lions DO use strength to hit, Augment Summoning helps them even more.
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Lame, made me go look and notice the PRD has not been updated to show that Riding Dog is now just Dog in SMI.
I thought the same thing. It looks like it still riding dog
ps you need to get your guide here Guide to the Guides.
I've got a busy weekend. I probably won't be able to address your feedback again until sunday afternoon. I appreciate the suggestions and I will be reevaluating the entries and adding things based on your feedback. I am not ignoring you, just have a few long hours and responsibilities.
Thanks, and expect some good changes soon.
I know it's anectdotal evidence, but not long ago I saw a level 17 summoner bring down 4 celestial dire tigers in one casting. It was a gestalt game, bad guy was a gestalt cleric//crusader (3E class; claim to fame is being super tough and hard to kill), at least 17th level (he tossed an enegy drain at one point). The BBEG had a Fortunate Fate spell buff up (3E spell; basically a contingent Heal spell when you'd get killed to save you from it), an actual Contingency Heal spell, and had barely been scratched when she summoned the tigers. I should also mentioned due to the room size, only 3 of them could actually melee him; the other just pwned mooks.
In the span of less than 3 rounds, those crazy ****ers tore through his full hp total, BOTH heal effects, and to the brink again. And it was basically just them. Rest of the party was either bogged down by the minions or just plain ineffective at hurting him.
Just saying. :)
Great guide! Two things, though: first, you should probably talk about Superior Summoning a bit. I crunched the numbers a while back, and it seems that for dishing out damage, it's almost always better to have 1d3+1 creatures of a lower level than 1 of the current level (sans DR).
Also, I think you've underrated the big cats. With pounce and rake they get a whopping 5 attacks on a charge when you first summon them, with Smite also if you like, plus they can potentially grapple. Summon a few leopards or lions and have them pounce on something, and there's a very good chance it will not continue that fight.
To make the guide complete in itself, I should include info on Superior Summoning. This is eventually going to be part of a bigger guide though that also includes a feat section which discusses Superior Summoning. If this was a standalone guide meant for all classes I should probably have a feat section specifically about feats that improve summoning.
And yes, I did completely underestimate those cats. That damage is amazing.
Two things though - the abilities and combat maneuver sections at the beginning of each summons have a kinda false sense about them because you add Alternate Summons in there.
I think you should add either an asterisk to any Alternate Summons, or leave them out entirely from the beginning summations.
Also, for the Best Damage and Best Tank, it'd be nice to have a couple numerical stats there (damage and HP/AC respectively) to put them in context. It would also allow a quick basic evaluation on whether to move up a level of summoning or just go with a lower level/multiple summons.
Great guide, though, and thanks for creating it!
I'll go ahead and change the color of alternate summons to purple and put them on the back end of the summaries.
I'll also include some stats on the "bests" as requested.
Lame, made me go look and notice the PRD has not been updated to show that Riding Dog is now just Dog in SMI.I thought the same thing. It looks like it still riding dog
ps you need to get your guide here Guide to the Guides.
Once the final Wizard Guide is done, I'll submit it.
Many thanks for the guide !
If only all the monsters of d20pfsrd had the advance sum stats ready...
Lame, made me go look and notice the PRD has not been updated to show that Riding Dog is now just Dog in SMI.I thought the same thing. It looks like it still riding dog
Well in that case, hey KaptainKrunch, SMI has a Riding Dog instead of a Dog which gets a Trip attack making it much nicer.
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To the OP:
Good work. Nice list - very useful.
Constructive comment:
You seem to have underrated Direbat. (highlighted in yellow). Direbat is super useful because it is one of the first summoned creatures that can fly. - Great for carrying the fighter/tank and allowing them to close-in on a huge creature.
You should add "Direbat - fly" to the special features section
This is so useful! I just started summoning with my wizard. Thanks!
Was the question regarding the reach of the eagle (and it's ability to flank/threaten) from SM I ever resolved?
I ask only because if it can't provide a flanking bonus I'd say while Pony is still best tank a regular (non riding) dog is at least equal to the eagle in offense, due to giving the party meleers flanking bonuses. Esp. past level 3 or so you won't use SMI much, but when you do it's about flanking to your party not damage from a CR1/3-1/2 critter.
Was the question regarding the reach of the eagle (and it's ability to flank/threaten) from SM I ever resolved?
I ask only because if it can't provide a flanking bonus I'd say while Pony is still best tank a regular (non riding) dog is at least equal to the eagle in offense, due to giving the party meleers flanking bonuses. Esp. past level 3 or so you won't use SMI much, but when you do it's about flanking to your party not damage from a CR1/3-1/2 critter.
I believe so.
The third printing of the Bestiary doesn't list them as having any special reach nor space, and as such I think it can be assumed that it was corrected.
Thanks for a great guide!
I've been playing a summoning cleric for 11 levels in the Jade Reagent AP, and I think your guide is dead on.
Just a few notes on summoning as a cleric:
Wolverine was a cool option for me because I often channel energy so the rage ability was useful. I can see skipping it as a wizard, but bards and clerics can make it work.
As a CG cleric, I am unable to summon lawful or evil creatures, which limits options a little. For me the Bralani Azata was a huge advantage because it was the first creature I could summon who could bypass DR/magic. (I guess I could have handed a weapon to an elemental, but the bralani came equipped.)
Bralani should be listed better then orange! Note that bralani can cast cure SERIOUS wounds twice a day. While healing in combat gets a bad rap, having your summons heal is good action economy. They get, mirror image and blur at will, and have everything needed to control wind. The option of shutting down archers, blowing away swarms, getting rid of clouds, etc. is very useful. Oh yeah, DR, SR, immunity/resistances, just everything.
Also note that many summons can be reduced to a doorstop by a first level protection from alignment spell. If the summons has ranged attacks, neutral alignment, spells, or anything else that lets it stay effective, that is VERY important.
One last thought, apes are the only SMIII creature that is large and has 10' reach. I think it is a little better then red. Same for the Triceratops... Huge with 15' reach, and all the goodies of having 14 HD, it is the "best tank" yet it is ranked as the worst option?
My whining aside, I love the guide! Great Work!
Nice list, but you certainly underestimated boars. A boar is by far the best SMIII tank, since its ferocity and high CON means it has effectively 35 HP (43 with Aug. Summoning). Same for its dire counterpart.
That's be great if it weren't for
Summoning: a summoning spell instantly brings a creature or object to a place you designate. When the spell ends or is dispelled, a summoned creature is instantly sent back to where it came from, but a summoned object is not sent back unless the spell description specifically indicates this. A summoned creature also goes away if it is killed or if its hit points drop to 0 or lower, but it is not really dead.
So Ferocity doesn't effect summoned creatures.
necro thread the link seems dead
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I've uploaded the version I had saved on my drive: link
Summoning: a summoning spell instantly brings a creature or object to a place you designate. When the spell ends or is dispelled, a summoned creature is instantly sent back to where it came from, but a summoned object is not sent back unless the spell description specifically indicates this. A summoned creature also goes away if it is killed or if its hit points drop to 0 or lower, but it is not really dead.I'm trying to figure out where this quote comes from. It is not mentioned in the SRD as far as I can find.
I'm wondering specifically because Summon Good Monster feat grants Diehard to many summoned creatures which would seem to be useless if this rule were true.
Thanks for any clarity you can provide.
The rule source is the Summoning subschool. Creatures that natively have Ferocity don't benefit from it, AFAICT, but Summon Good Monster should be interpreted in light of the Ferocious Summons FAQ; that is, "abilities do things".