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Choose the class that most benefits from the rolls you have.
Depends, did you pick your class before or after you rolled?...but of course you can still min-max to a lesser degree by picking a suitable race/class combo.Point-buy allows more control over the actual scores, therefore there is greater freedom to min/max. It's not possible to argue otherwise.
That wasn't the argument. What I'm upset about is the fallacy (and it is one) that those who use point-buy are more likely to min-max than those who roll stats.
That opinion is incorrect.
Dump score = 09 or less
Human average = 10
Above average = 11 - 14
Epic 15 - 18Yes this is overly simply.
Unless you are building a Hercules know for just strength styled character
I am having trouble allotting the points for a character. I would love a more balanced character.It has been my luck with a four 4d6 rolling to either have mostly above tens or mostly below tens. I can normal find a way to build the character if numbers are above tens. I can normal convince the GM to let me restart the character if they are mostly below tens
So you avoid dump stats by rolling as often as possible to not have them? That's one way. However it doesn't show that point buy encourages dump stats and it doesn't show that rolling is better. It shows that rolling a bunch of different characters will eventually yield what you want.
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Choose the class that most benefits from the rolls you have.
Depends, did you pick your class before or after you rolled?...but of course you can still min-max to a lesser degree by picking a suitable race/class combo.Point-buy allows more control over the actual scores, therefore there is greater freedom to min/max. It's not possible to argue otherwise.
That wasn't the argument. What I'm upset about is the fallacy (and it is one) that those who use point-buy are more likely to min-max than those who roll stats.
That opinion is incorrect.
Okay, but nobody expressed that opinion.
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Okay, but nobody expressed that opinion.Choose the class that most benefits from the rolls you have.
Depends, did you pick your class before or after you rolled?...but of course you can still min-max to a lesser degree by picking a suitable race/class combo.Point-buy allows more control over the actual scores, therefore there is greater freedom to min/max. It's not possible to argue otherwise.
That wasn't the argument. What I'm upset about is the fallacy (and it is one) that those who use point-buy are more likely to min-max than those who roll stats.
That opinion is incorrect.
You're not wrong, point-buy tends to encourage min/maxing simply because it allows it. But nothing forces you to min/max, you could easily make a human wizard with Str 10, Dex 14, Con 10, Int 18, Wis 10, Cha 10. No dump stats. Unless you consider 10 a dump, in which case a 12,12,12,16,12,12 array would work.
Somebody certainly expressed that opinion.
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Point-buy allows more control over the actual scores, therefore there is greater freedom to min/max. It's not possible to argue otherwise.Who is? Greater freedom does not equal greater occurrence.
Nobody is, really. I was just clearly stating my opinion, because my first few posts were either misread or not read in their entirety.
I'd do 25 pb and then it feels dumping isn't all that "required". Then just upgrade the mobs a little and then everyone can be happy with their stats and not complain about how they got a weak character because they rolled bad or someone rolled clearly better.
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Okay, but nobody expressed that opinion.Choose the class that most benefits from the rolls you have.
Depends, did you pick your class before or after you rolled?...but of course you can still min-max to a lesser degree by picking a suitable race/class combo.Point-buy allows more control over the actual scores, therefore there is greater freedom to min/max. It's not possible to argue otherwise.
That wasn't the argument. What I'm upset about is the fallacy (and it is one) that those who use point-buy are more likely to min-max than those who roll stats.
That opinion is incorrect.
You're not wrong, point-buy tends to encourage min/maxing simply because it allows it. But nothing forces you to min/max, you could easily make a human wizard with Str 10, Dex 14, Con 10, Int 18, Wis 10, Cha 10. No dump stats. Unless you consider 10 a dump, in which case a 12,12,12,16,12,12 array would work.Somebody certainly expressed that opinion.
I'm not trying to pick a fight here, but "encourages" and "causes" are not the same thing.
The OP was suggesting that from his perspective he couldn't create a character with point-buy without min/maxing. He was not wrong.
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Point-buy does not encourage min-maxing.
I disagree. When you give a human being more freedom, they will exercise that freedom.
Wanting to min-max does. Point-buy may allow greater control, and become a preference for min-maxers. But the min-maxing will occur regardless of method chosen.
This I agree with.
It depends on the severity of the dump stat...I generally use an array similar to 16,14,12,12,11,10, which allows for no dump stats but also generally gives the character strong enough stats to be effective but also fairly realistic. Alternately, 16,14,14,12,10,10,8 means that sure, there's on dump stat, but it's not severe.
Min-maxing is going to happen; it's effectively a part of the game. I have seen characters with builds with 16,16,14,12,8,7. When the min maxing is to that extent or greater, the character may be really effective in specific areas, but in others they're going to have severe weaknesses, and unless the character has a really in depth background, the build will only make limited roleplay sense.
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I disagree. When you give a human being more freedom, they will exercise that freedom.I believe they have done studies to the contrary, where prisoners have refused to leave their cells when given the chance.
Are you suggesting point-buy is a prison? ;)
In all seriousness, that seems more like a commentary on the concept of prison than freedom.
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Considering the prisoners likely know they will be punished for leaving, or leaving will have consequences, this isn't a very good study. At least, with the information you provided.
I think a better example is the internet. When someone feels they are free of repercussions, you will know their true personality. On forums for example, people that are normally very nice, or don't say/do anything vulgar, can become animals because of the anonymity.
Riots would be another example. Human beings that are sheltered from persecution, can and will do terrible things to one another.
The only time I've ever dump-stated a character, was for a Monk that was raised a hermit and had no social interactions other than his older sister. Even then, his charisma only got dropped to 8, which isn't really all that bad.
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@Tels: Pessimistic, but ultimately true.
It seems like there is some vagueness as to the meaning of "dump-stat" - I would suggest any purposeful lowering or assigning of a low stat in order to boost or reserve a better roll for a more important ability. Merely "neglecting" a stat doesn't really qualify.
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I personally don't like being at a disadvantage at something, though having a team-mate to cover for me takes some of the pressure off. (Unless it's a PFS scenario and I get the faction mission that calls for a skill I don't have. Grrr...)
I used to prefer rolling dice because it could potentially give me higher numbers across the board than with point by; later on, I preferred point-buy because it could potentially give me higher numbers than rolling low numbers with dice. Nowadays, I'll happily go with whichever method the GM enforces at the beginning.
Also, giving everyone high stats but bumping up CRs behind the scenes is a perfectly reasonable method of making everyone happy. Though it should only be done if regular CRs become regular cake-walks all the time.
Some people will also always believe that the earth is the center of the universe, etc.
Well, if it's 400 billion stars (the high end of current estimates) that's only 2.5 planets per star.
Dump score = 09 or less
Human average = 10
Above average = 11 - 14
Epic 15 - 18Using those definitions, it's trivial to come up with a point buy that involves no dump scores (e.g. just set a minimum of 10 for each stat).
Contrariwise, using those definitions, it's trivial to come up with a rolling system that generates lots of dump scores (e.g. roll 2d4 for each stat).
If nothing else I have learned two things since I started this thread.
One my ideas of normal or average on the stats is way out of date and un balanced.
two It is not the numbers per-say that bug me it is having 4 or five numbers that are the same example 12 12 12 18 12 10 (not real point buy number ) all the 12's would bug the heck out of me. no real reason for it either.
two It is not the numbers per-say that bug me it is having 4 or five numbers that are the same example 12 12 12 18 12 10 (not real point buy number ) all the 12's would bug the heck out of me. no real reason for it either.
There's something to that. One innovation that some d20 systems use is to just list the bonus instead of the stat number. I can't speak for you, but to me +1 +1 +1 +4 +1 +0 feels a bit less artificial than 12 12 12 18 12 10.
Dump score = 09 or less
Human average = 10
Above average = 11 - 14
Epic 15 - 18Using those definitions, it's trivial to come up with a point buy that involves no dump scores (e.g. just set a minimum of 10 for each stat).
Contrariwise, using those definitions, it's trivial to come up with a rolling system that generates lots of dump scores (e.g. roll 2d4 for each stat).
If nothing else I have learned two things since I started this thread.
One my ideas of normal or average on the stats is way out of date and un balanced.
two It is not the numbers per-say that bug me it is having 4 or five numbers that are the same example 12 12 12 18 12 10 (not real point buy number ) all the 12's would bug the heck out of me. no real reason for it either.
I agree with that. It's not wrong to have those stats. It just feels weird when they are all essentially the same. I had a character in 2nd edition where I rolled four 15s in a row and scrapped the character before I finished rolling because it was too many of the same number.
There doesn't have to be a reason. It's your personal preference. However, you should be careful not to try and force it on your friends who don't share it.
I agree 100% like I said I did not realize I had this little flaw in my thinking.
I have a vary mild OCD and sometime the It does not feel right is one of those things. now that I why the point buy characters bug me so much I can find ways to fix it.
1 try not to have to many duplicated numbers.
2 focus more on the story telling of lower numbers
3 move past the normal stats I had in my head.
that kind of stuff
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Considering the prisoners likely know they will be punished for leaving, or leaving will have consequences, this isn't a very good study. At least, with the information you provided.
I think a better example is the internet. When someone feels they are free of repercussions, you will know their true personality. On forums for example, people that are normally very nice, or don't say/do anything vulgar, can become animals because of the anonymity.
Riots would be another example. Human beings that are sheltered from persecution, can and will do terrible things to one another.
The only time I've ever dump-stated a character, was for a Monk that was raised a hermit and had no social interactions other than his older sister. Even then, his charisma only got dropped to 8, which isn't really all that bad.
I play dump stat characters all the time. It is great fun. I am not doing it for the benefits, I am doing it because I like characters that have a weakness. Some though, refuse to dump dex, wis or con. I have had great fun with low wis cowards, or rogues that aren't professional athletes. Damage actually becomes serious.
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I like dumpstats. I think that any character who excels at something should also have something they aren't good in. For example, if we were to stat up a stereotypical gamer nerd, we might have something like.
Str 9, Dex 11, Con 11, Int 14, Wis 11, Cha 7
Obviously this individual excels at something significantly above most with his 14 Intelligence. However, he likewise has a poor flaw elsewhere in his 7 Charisma. He's smart and probably knows lots of stuff (even if that stuff is wasted in Knowledge (Nerd Trivia)) but he's socially awkward. He gets along swimmingly with other people like himself, but has trouble relating to the average person. Maybe he tends to be long winded. Maybe most folks don't appreciate his rod of wonder jokes as much as his usual friends do. Maybe he doesn't realize how much he annoys the local football player when he volunteers his opinion about how high school sports programs are a waste of time and money that could be used for the school music program.
Same process applies to adventurers. Brufus the Berserker Beefcake might be sporting a physical physique that is to die for, but he's going to suffer for all the hours spent exercising that could have been spent reading books about the world, or learning the values of personal space.
Str 15, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 8, Wis 12, Cha 8.
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Point buy is good because point buy is fair. It discourages exceptionally high statistics without exceptionally high compensations. If you want a natural 18, then that 18 is going to be quite literally your compensation for weakness in another area (or likely multiple areas).
For example, a Wizard with a 7, 12, 12, 20, 12, 7 is a perfect example of someone who is truly astoundingly gifted in a certain area, but in doing so he has notable weaknesses elsewhere. The perfect statistics for a bookworm hero.
A normal person (3 point buy) that isn't hero material would be looking at more like 7, 7, 12, 20, 7, 7. A true savant. Astoundingly brilliant, but physically inept and socially inept, as well as being absent minded. This might be a crotchety inventor that spends all his or her time in their lab, who accidentally talks down to people without meaning to, misplaces stuff easily, and is a 98 pound weakling; but by god they seem to know everything (A human expert would be sporting 12 maxed skills, and could easily be sporting every knowledge skill with a +6 to +9, and multiple Craft skills in the same range).
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I used to roll statistics back in the day. However, it was quick to see that you could get stuck with some lemons, or someone would be gods gift to humanity. I once was helping a friend roll up her first character, who was a bard. If I hadn't been showing her how with my own dice, I wouldn't have believed it. Her ability scores before racial modifiers came out to 17, 17, 17, 17, 18, 18. The equivalent of 86 point buy.
Meanwhile, across the table, poor Josh rolled something that looked more like 16, 13, 12, 8, 10, and 4. It didn't take very long to realize that the randomness wasn't really adding much to our games. Point buy allows us to play the character we want within fair limits, and allows us to control whether we have things we're overcompensating for, or if we're pretty all around decent but not very impressive anywhere.
I still run with rolling, and oddly enough, the highest stat chars seem to get themselves killed. They think all those bonuses make them invincible. The lower stat chars, they are more careful--they are more human and feel squishy.
I play dump stat characters all the time. It is great fun. I am not doing it for the benefits, I am doing it because I like characters that have a weakness. Some though, refuse to dump dex, wis or con.
I concur. This character here was one of my all-time favorite PCs, in part because of her abysmal Wisdom score. Check out her journal to see some of the shenanigans it got her into... specifically the part about cooking ;)
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I like dumpstats. I think that any character who excels at something should also have something they aren't good in.
*Looks back at what you said in lots of other threads about low charisma and starts to link to it...then decides it's not worth it and goes back to waiting for TOZ and Jal to embrace the tension and go for it*
:)
I have had my gm tell me I suck at playing high charisma characters. So if my character will play like I have an 8 why shouldn't I stat them up properly?
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I like dumpstats. I think that any character who excels at something should also have something they aren't good in.*Looks back at what you said in lots of other threads about low charisma and starts to link to it...then decides it's not worth it and goes back to waiting for TOZ and Jal to embrace the tension and go for it*
:)
Go ahead and link 'em. Hell, here, I'll do it for you. Practical Optimization - Make the Numbers Fit Your Roleplaying has a Fighter (the poster child of the discussion) who begins poor in social skills and over time and practice gets better, until he's a great speaker and charming individual. He intentionally maintains a low Charisma because he is not supposed to be good at everything that Charisma is based off of (for example, he is a terrible liar, will never manage to activate a magic wand, can't sing for s&&*, etc).
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two It is not the numbers per-say that bug me it is having 4 or five numbers that are the same example 12 12 12 18 12 10 (not real point buy number ) all the 12's would bug the heck out of me. no real reason for it either.
I had a party member once who was playing a character with triskedecaphobia (fear of the number 13). He set all of his stats 12, and then when it came time to add ability points from experience, he deliberately waited to raise a stat until he could raise it all the way to 14, so the character wouldn't have to have a 13 on the sheet.
(Don't try and work out the mechanics too hard; this wasn't Pathfinder.)
I have had my gm tell me I suck at playing high charisma characters. So if my character will play like I have an 8 why shouldn't I stat them up properly?
I'm currently playing a Neutral Good blasty druid in my friend's tabletop at the moment (but her level is too low to be blasty yet, so she has just used animals and smacked stuff with entangled a few things). She has a 9 Intelligence and 7 Charisma. The 9 Intelligence represents the fact she grew up in a secluded location and has no formal schooling, so she is humorously clueless about many things when asked (she cannot take 10 to hit DC 10 Knowledge checks) and she has a kind of Tsundere attitude (she seems a bit grating but she really wants to help you).
Incidentally, the game has been pretty fun and funny so far. Her best friend is the Dwarf Barbarian who has a 5 Charisma and worships the ground she walks on (mostly because he used my character as an anchor for his backstory to become an adventurer, as she saved his life and asked nothing in return, and he was so moved that he swore an eternal life debt to her). Neither of them are particularly sociable folks. The dwarf used to be some hired muscle to some criminal thugs, and so his idea of "talking it out" usually involves Intimidate. :P
Currently they've signed up to a contest to run a gauntlet of challenges in this rich guy's own personal dungeon. She sees it as a way to test herself and develop her skills, which she will need to eventually challenge her father for right of ascension and take over their druid circle before her brother Malak manages to do so. Her brother Malak would have them make war against "civilized" people, which she's not keen on and feels will have nothing but bad consequences.
two It is not the numbers per-say that bug me it is having 4 or five numbers that are the same example 12 12 12 18 12 10 (not real point buy number ) all the 12's would bug the heck out of me. no real reason for it either.I had a party member once who was playing a character with triskedecaphobia (fear of the number 13). He set all of his stats 12, and then when it came time to add ability points from experience, he deliberately waited to raise a stat until he could raise it all the way to 14, so the character wouldn't have to have a 13 on the sheet.
(Don't try and work out the mechanics too hard; this wasn't Pathfinder.)
Wow, that is one of the most unique examples of metagaming I've ever heard. XD
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I play dump stat characters all the time. It is great fun. I am not doing it for the benefits, I am doing it because I like characters that have a weakness. Some though, refuse to dump dex, wis or con. I have had great fun with low wis cowards, or rogues that aren't professional athletes. Damage actually becomes serious.
I like playing characters with weaknesses, too. I just don't like those weaknesses to be in my stats. (My 20 pt array tends to look like 14, 14, 14, 13, 12, 10).
I really wish that Pathfinder had some sort of Disadvantage system, because that's the way I prefer to work my weaknesses in.
I play dump stat characters all the time. It is great fun. I am not doing it for the benefits, I am doing it because I like characters that have a weakness. Some though, refuse to dump dex, wis or con. I have had great fun with low wis cowards, or rogues that aren't professional athletes. Damage actually becomes serious.I like playing characters with weaknesses, too. I just don't like those weaknesses to be in my stats. (My 20 pt array tends to look like 14, 14, 14, 13, 12, 10).
I really wish that Pathfinder had some sort of Disadvantage system, because that's the way I prefer to work my weaknesses in.
Deadlands is a cool system for that. It's actually more powergamey to have weaknesses, because weaknesses give you more character creation points. And then, roleplaying those weaknesses give you perks in the game (in the form of extra fate chips which can be used to get advantages in combat, avoid dying, and spent for bonus experience points). In essence, having a flawed character makes you stronger.
The perfect answer to the whole RP vs RP fallacy. Roleplay is Rollplay. Haha.