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I am still deeply concerned about my PFS games being ruined by 'Vagabond Child' and I want action, conswarnit! Surely this flood of mage escape artistry and archaeologist device disabling has gone on long enough!
** spoiler omitted **
Yes, and those fighters that are taking the Reactionary trait and going before my rogue are totally unacceptable! If they want to go before me, they should have to take the Improved Initiative feat! It's not like they don't have the feats for it! Gosh.
RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8
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I don't care about magical knack one way or the other, I just want to thank you for the links to my new BEST POST EVER!
We live in a world that has rules, and those rules have to be guarded by men with dice. Who's gonna do it? You? I have a greater responsibility than you could possibly fathom. You weep for Magical Knack, and you curse the society. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know. That Magical Knack's banning, while tragic, probably saved characters. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves characters. You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me in this role, you need me in this role. We use words like explore, report, cooperate. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very rules that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide them. I would rather you just said thank you, and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest you pick up some dice, and play. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entitled to."
I remember that post from a while back. One of my favorites as well :P
It's actually simple. It's a trait that simply too good to pass up as it was if you were a multi-classed caster. It was considerably more powerful than "half a feat".
Magical Knack would have probably been balanced, if it was only a +1 boost.
Argh, that's terrible reasoning. It's only "too good" because pathfinder screws over multiclassed casters. It's not like power attack or improved initiative or reactionary even. Reactionary is easily more powerful than magical knack. Eastern mysteries is as well for the same build.
The problem is there is no reasonable way in pathfinder for multi classed casters to make up for caster level loss for level appropriate encounters besides that trait. Oh sure you can make stupid builds where you dump 3 feats or more so you can cast one spell as good as a single class caster. Of course a single class caster could do that too and hit way harder than you, so yeah. At that rate you might as well just stick with level independent spells like buffs and save or suck, damage spells that have already capped out and just forget about even trying on anything with spell resistance.
Is +2 caster levels worth it? For an arcane trickster probably. For a paladin or ranger, probably not. For a multiclassed divine, not necessarily. For every class combination there is a must have trait. For any battlefield controller that's going to be reactionary.
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It's actually simple. It's a trait that simply too good to pass up as it was if you were a multi-classed caster. It was considerably more powerful than "half a feat".
Magical Knack would have probably been balanced, if it was only a +1 boost.
Argh, that's terrible reasoning. It's only "too good" because pathfinder screws over multiclassed casters. It's not like power attack or improved initiative or reactionary even. Reactionary is easily more powerful than magical knack. Eastern mysteries is as well for the same build.
The problem is there is no reasonable way in pathfinder for multi classed casters to make up for caster level loss for level appropriate encounters besides that trait. Oh sure you can make stupid builds where you dump 3 feats or more so you can cast one spell as good as a single class caster. Of course a single class caster could do that too and hit way harder than you, so yeah. At that rate you might as well just stick with level independent spells like buffs and save or suck, damage spells that have already capped out and just forget about even trying on anything with spell resistance.
Is +2 caster levels worth it? For an arcane trickster probably. For a paladin or ranger, probably not. For a multiclassed divine, not necessarily. For every class combination there is a must have trait. For any battlefield controller that's going to be reactionary.
I have a multi-classed oracle 4 / barbarian 2 / Rage Prophet 6 and I could care less about magical knack. Granted, he's more of a front-line fighter (decent DPR, decent AC, monster trip/disarm artist) and uses his skills and spells to diversify rather than define him.
Additionally, there should be a drawback to diversification. If you can diversify and never lose anything for it, then why wouldn't everyone multiclass?
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Additionally, there should be a drawback to diversification. If you can diversify and never lose anything for it, then why wouldn't everyone multiclass?
Aaaaand... You do know that Magical Knack does not eliminate all the drawbacks for a spellcaster trying to diversify? All it does is provide a minimal reduction of said drawbacks.
The spellcaster still loses 1 or 2 levels worth of spells.
It is even worse for some of the utterly pessimal spellcasting-focused builds out there, where Magical Knack offsets so little of the drawbacks that it is almost certain to make the spellcaster feel worse than if it weren't available.
Pessimal build:
Sorcerer 4/Inquisitor 4/Mystic Theurge 4
Even at the "optimal" version of the build, with Magical Knack, you have a Sorcerer with 8th level spells, cast at 10th level CL; and 8th level spells and CL for the Inquisitor spells.
Inquisitor:
8: 4 4 2
12: 5 5 4 3
All fourth level spells lost, level variable effects at 66%
Sorcerer:
8: 6 6 5 3
12: 6 6 6 6 5 3
All 5th & 6th level spells lost, level variable effects at 84%
Overall:
Inquisitor: 7 spell slots less, no fourth level spells, no bane, no discern lies, three less teamwork feats, two less judgements per day, no second judgement, no stalwart, no greater judgement
Sorceror: 12 spell slots less, no fifth & sixth level spells, 5 bloodline spells less, one bloodline power and one bloodline feat less.
All Magical Knack does is mitigate, and that potentially minimally, the lost caster level effects on caster level variable spells.
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Math aside. I have actual experience playing a multiclassed caster with casting prestige class up to 12th level.
I have a friend in a home game who’s playing a Sorcerer/Cleric/Mystic Theurge. (Wild Blooded Empyreal so only one casting stat)
You know what? They are all quite effective and have a lot of versatility.
Ever here the phrase, “Jack of all trades, master of none”?
When you multiclass, expect to lose something.
When there is a feature that is apparently a must have (my experience says it isn’t), then it means its too powerful, or you aren’t looking hard enough to ameliorate your troubles.
Sorry, it isn’ t necessary to be very effective. Get over it please.
Multiclassed casters are no more 'penalized' for multiclassing than anyone else who chooses to do so.
Not having all your levels in casting is the essence of how multiclassing works.
A fighter who multiclasses loses BAB, bonus feats, access to higher/more armor and weapon training, etc.
Where are the threads bemoaning a trait that gives a fighter who multiclasses an extra bonus feat?
Mind you, I think Magical Knack would be fine in play; it doesn't improve access to spells, just boosts the level-dependent effects of the spells you have.
But it's more than a little ridiculous to say casters are being punished: if you're so concerned about your spell access, don't use the mechanic (multiclassing) that slows it. It's not as though anyone is holding a crossbow to your head making you add different classes.
TL;DR: if you choose to multiclass, don't then spend time wringing your hands and crying about how multiclassing works. You get the benefits of your other class(es). If you want to have your cake and eat it too, play a home game with gestalt characters.
When you multiclass, expect to lose something.
Wow, you're bringing up the weakest possible class combinations too. Rage prophet is awful, and mystic theurge is worse. Rage prophet is better served just staying oracle with 2 levels of barbarian, because you get nothing from that PrC, and you lose a bunch of feats while paying a dumb feat tax to enter. Mystic theurge is essentially the same as any character with high umd.
When you multiclass as either one of these loser class combinations, yeah, you lose something. You don't have to lose any caster levels either to realize you've lost a lot.
When there is a feature that is apparently a must have (my experience says it isn’t), then it means its too powerful, or you aren’t looking hard enough to ameliorate your troubles.
Better get rid of power attack for fighters and weapons finesse for dex based characters then.
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When you multiclass, expect to lose something.Wow, you're bringing up the weakest possible class combinations too. Rage prophet is awful, and mystic theurge is worse. Rage prophet is better served just staying oracle with 2 levels of barbarian, because you get nothing from that PrC, and you lose a bunch of feats while paying a dumb feat tax to enter. Mystic theurge is essentially the same as any character with high umd.
When you multiclass as either one of these loser class combinations, yeah, you lose something. You don't have to lose any caster levels either to realize you've lost a lot.
When there is a feature that is apparently a must have (my experience says it isn’t), then it means its too powerful, or you aren’t looking hard enough to ameliorate your troubles.Better get rid of power attack for fighters and weapons finesse for dex based characters then.
Power Attack is not a must have. I did end up picking it up for my Oracle/Barbarian/Rage Prophet, but not until level 8 or 9.
And Rage Prophet does not suck. And mind you, I’m advocating keeping Magical Knack banned, because I’m happy with my character the way he is.
Rage Prophet gave my character access to See Invisibility, I get a special Guidance Bonus, I can cast healing spells while raging without using moment of clarity.
My character’s deaf condition is getting better, can expend spell slots for more rage rounds, add barbarian levels to caster level for spells cast while raging and using moment of clarity, add con bonus to spell DCs for same.
Requirements for this class did not include any feats.
Bbauzh is a highly versatile and effective character, without magical knack.
And the argument of doing away with power attack and weapon finesse is disingenuous, because they are feats, not traits. There is a huge difference.
I disagree that either of those are necessary. Nice, but not necessary.
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RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8
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better get rid of Reactionary... oh, and Warrior of Old, ... wait, Elven reflexes. Three traits that are all the SAME trait, that are half of Improved Init. which is just the BEST feat in the game. Used every single encounter. what other feat is used in EVER encounter? (ok, get rid of that one too ;))
Toughness so strong.
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It all goes back to the fact that by design PF strongly discourages multiclassing, especially dipping. This just serves to reinforce that in PFS play.
IIAK, they have refused to tell us exactly why they made the choice, only that they "talked about it".
Pretty much this, multi-classing a spell caster in PFS is extremely discouraged. I know players who do not play PFS because of this. However, the rules of the campaign are after all the rules.
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multi-classing a spell caster in PFS is extremely discouraged. I know players who do not play PFS because of this.
Wha...? I have an Eldritch Knight (well, currently just a Fighter1/Wizard3) who's doing great. And he hasn't even gotten rid of his 10% ASF chance yet!
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RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8
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Pretty much this, multi-classing a spell caster in PFS is extremely discouraged. I know players who do not play PFS because of this. However, the rules of the campaign are after all the rules.It all goes back to the fact that by design PF strongly discourages multiclassing, especially dipping. This just serves to reinforce that in PFS play.
IIAK, they have refused to tell us exactly why they made the choice, only that they "talked about it".
I would encourage your friends to try something aside from multi-classed spellcasters, so they can participate in the sweetness that is PFS.
And Rage Prophet does not suck. And mind you, I’m advocating keeping Magical Knack banned, because I’m happy with my character the way he is.
Hey, you don't have to change it. For rage prophet it wouldn't do anything worthwhile anyways, as you're so far behind on caster levels that overcoming SR is sort of a waste and you don't really cast anything that's level dependent in a way that matters.
It would matter for an arcane trickster or eldritch knight who wants to cast scorching rays and be able to overcome SR while getting the extra ray. Its a must have only in the sense that reactionary is a must have for a god wizard.
Rage Prophet gave my character access to See Invisibility, I get a special Guidance Bonus, I can cast healing spells while raging without using moment of clarity.
My character’s deaf condition is getting better, can expend spell slots for more rage rounds, add barbarian levels to caster level for spells cast while raging and using moment of clarity, add con bonus to spell DCs for same.
Or you could have taken two levels of barbarian and the lame curse, taken dangerously curious for UMD so you can use see invisibility scrolls, not have to take moment of clarity at all so you can turn rage on and off at will whenever casting, gotten a rage power that's useful like intimidating glare or lesser spirit totem, gotten extra revelations and more spellcasting levels. With the extra revelations and rage power, that frees up feats that you can use to put into spell focus or heighten if you want more DC on spells, while being able to cast higher level spells. All while having equal or higher BAB, and getting favored class bonus. Rage prophet is a trap that just happens to look cool.
Requirements for this class did not include any feats.
Requires moment of clarity, which is sort of pointless if you take the lame curse. A rage power is an opportunity cost equivalent to a feat, except many rage powers are more powerful than most feats.
Bbauzh is a highly versatile and effective character, without magical knack.
Sure, so which is it, either magical knack is a must have that is too overpowering to allow, or its a situationally useful trait that benefits some builds the way dangerously curious or reactionary does.
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Using the concept of "under/overpowered" is a ridiculous basis for deciding this, or any other issue. Power levels are in the eyes of the behol...oh, sorry can't use that one. Copyrite and all ;-) Personally, I think the 20 point-buy is over-powered, and some think it is under-powered. It all depends on your preferred style of play.
No amount of arguing is going to change the fact that (1) this topic has been discussed numerous times, (2) Mike/Mark have listened to the feedback numerous times, (3) Mike/Mark have upheld the banning of the trait for PFS, (4) that is not going to change anytime soon, if ever, and (5) *your* opinion on the subject is not going to be changed by opposing positions in this forum.
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Sometimes I mess up the math, but I think +2 is half of +4, not two thirds... what am I missing?
He might be referring to the fact that for characters that have only taken a 1 or 2 level dip into another class (which I imagine is quite common), magical knack is just as good as practised spellcaster, and for a character who's taken a 3 level dip, it's 2/3 as good.
In other words, the trait is at least half as good as the feat, depending on the PC build.
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I'm sorry, but anyone who simply disregards Rage Prophet and says flat out that it's a terrible prestige class has completely lost my attention. The most powerful and fun character I've ever played in all my years of gaming was in the Rise of the Runelords adventure path that I just finished a while back, and he was a Barbarian2/Oracle4/Rage Prophet9. I'm not going to argue mechanics with you, but I can tell you the character was incredibly effective (over-powered even), and you gain a lot of awesome stuff from Rage Prophet(like adding your constitution bonus to the save DCs of spells at Rage Prophet 7 and adding your Barbarian levels to CL during moment of clarity at 4th) that make up for the inherent multi-classing weaknesses. He did not have magical knack for the record, though I'm more chiming in to stop this blasphemy that Rage Prophet sucks, because it was fantastic!
Also I play a Barbarian1/Sorcerer7 in PFS that does just fine without Maigcal Knack. I'm not saying that I'm against making the trait legal, I really couldn't care less, but the argument that you can't play a multi-classed caster just because the trait is not allowed is false and hyperbole. Will you be slightly less powerful in PFS because of the lack of Magical Knack, sure, does that mean the character is useless, absolutely not.
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I'm sorry, but anyone who simply disregards Rage Prophet and says flat out that it's a terrible prestige class has completely lost my attention. The most powerful and fun character I've ever played in all my years of gaming was in the Rise of the Runelords adventure path that I just finished a while back, and he was a Barbarian2/Oracle4/Rage Prophet9. I'm not going to argue mechanics with you, but I can tell you the character was incredibly effective (over-powered even), and you gain a lot of awesome stuff from Rage Prophet(like adding your constitution bonus to the save DCs of spells at Rage Prophet 7 and adding your Barbarian levels to CL during moment of clarity at 4th) that make up for the inherent multi-classing weaknesses. He did not have magical knack for the record, though I'm more chiming in to stop this blasphemy that Rage Prophet sucks, because it was fantastic!
Also I play a Barbarian1/Sorcerer7 in PFS that does just fine without Maigcal Knack. I'm not saying that I'm against making the trait legal, I really couldn't care less, but the argument that you can't play a multi-classed caster just because the trait is not allowed is false and hyperbole. Will you be slightly less powerful in PFS because of the lack of Magical Knack, sure, does that mean the character is useless, absolutely not.
That's what I'm trying to say.
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As usual, actual play experience trumps theorywank. ;)
And, as usual, actual play experience is not an any character that would want or have actual benefits from the trait being discussed.
Has anyone playing an actual Mystic Theurge spoken up? No. I was playing one in a non-PFS game, but I gave him up because he was so underpowered compared to every other character in the game. YMMV.
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RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8
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Oh good gravy - can we stop this thread now? It's been made clear that magical knack is not coming back anytime soon and is a very low priority to the higher ups. Any more discussion about build potency with or without a trait isn't productive, unless its in a thread called "Build potency with or without magical knack."
PS: And that thread would have no business in the PFS boards.
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boooo walter! I almost have a Bingo...
All I need is for someone to use the phrase "RAW vs. RAI" and I win the thread!
;)
(PS. yeah, this thread has been in the death spiral for days now)
Can you count your use to win?
Failing that does my quoting you help you win?
Just trying to be helpful here. I think the winning argument breaks down to the "RAW vs. RAI" in that by RAW your own post would work, but by RAI someone else had to post it.
Beat me to it. CURSES!
I'm sorry, but anyone who simply disregards Rage Prophet and says flat out that it's a terrible prestige class has completely lost my attention.
It should be obvious if you just look at what rage prophet gets you with what it costs. 1 rage power, 3 revelations (each of which more powerful than a feat), 3 caster levels, and .25 of a BAB point for some pretty marginal benefits. I'm glad that you liked the PrC, sure its about fun and flavor, but mechanically its simply inferior and there's not much a rage prophet can do that an oracle with 2 levels of barb can't do better.
Also I play a Barbarian1/Sorcerer7 in PFS that does just fine without Maigcal Knack. I'm not saying that I'm against making the trait legal, I really couldn't care less, but the argument that you can't play a multi-classed caster just because the trait is not allowed is false and hyperbole.
That's not what anyone is saying. Allowing magical knack makes some suboptimal choices better to play, that's all, and it affects some playstyles more than others. The trickster that attacks with spells using sneak attack is much more hit by reduced caster levels for touch and ranged touch that do damage based on level than the eldritch knight who uses spells to cast some personal buffs then wades into combat hitting things.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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As usual, actual play experience trumps theorywank. ;)And, as usual, actual play experience is not an any character that would want or have actual benefits from the trait being discussed.
Has anyone playing an actual Mystic Theurge spoken up? No. I was playing one in a non-PFS game, but I gave him up because he was so underpowered compared to every other character in the game. YMMV.
Trotting out the weakest combos and saying "See how terrible Paizo is to multi-classers!!" isn't going to change anyone's point of view.
As Bob said, everyone has their own opinions on the issue and there is likely little chance they will meet in the middle, particularly not when the battlefield of thought is littered with strawmen.
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I'm sorry, but anyone who simply disregards Rage Prophet and says flat out that it's a terrible prestige class has completely lost my attention.It should be obvious if you just look at what rage prophet gets you with what it costs. 1 rage power, 3 revelations (each of which more powerful than a feat), 3 caster levels, and .25 of a BAB point for some pretty marginal benefits. I'm glad that you liked the PrC, sure its about fun and flavor, but mechanically its simply inferior and there's not much a rage prophet can do that an oracle with 2 levels of barb can't do better.
The powers you get for being a Rage Prophet equal or better the rage power and 3 revelations. The are just more specific to a certain type of power rather than whatever rage powers and revelations certain optimizers demand are the only ones Barbarians and/or Oracles should take. Rage Prophet is also a Good BAB, which means you actually get more than if you took levels of Oracle.
The class is not a weak option.
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As usual, actual play experience trumps theorywank. ;)And, as usual, actual play experience is not an any character that would want or have actual benefits from the trait being discussed.
Has anyone playing an actual Mystic Theurge spoken up? No. I was playing one in a non-PFS game, but I gave him up because he was so underpowered compared to every other character in the game. YMMV.
Not Mystic Theurge here, but Arcane Trickster. Hit tenth about a month ago. Power-level wise, disappointing: seeing all those 10th level full casters with their fifth level spells never feels good, but that's the price of multiclassing.
As an enchanter, the biggest issue is spell resistance.
On raw numbers, the ability to overcome SR is 15% less than other characters of your level, and the number of spell slots to throw at it is similarly diminished. Feat requirements make the spell penetration line of spells a costly trade-off, and this doesn't take into account lessened duration and effect of the spells.
Four out of the last five shirt rerolls have been used on SR checks.
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As usual, actual play experience trumps theorywank. ;)And, as usual, actual play experience is not an any character that would want or have actual benefits from the trait being discussed.
Has anyone playing an actual Mystic Theurge spoken up? No. I was playing one in a non-PFS game, but I gave him up because he was so underpowered compared to every other character in the game. YMMV.
Not Mystic Theurge here, but Arcane Trickster. Hit tenth about a month ago. Power-level wise, disappointing: seeing all those 10th level full casters with their fifth level spells never feels good, but that's the price of multiclassing.
As an enchanter, the biggest issue is spell resistance.
On raw numbers, the ability to overcome SR is 15% less than other characters of your level, and the number of spell slots to throw at it is similarly diminished. Feat requirements make the spell penetration line of spells a costly trade-off, and this doesn't take into account lessened duration and effect of the spells.Four out of the last five shirt rerolls have been used on SR checks.
To be fair, those full casters SHOULD be better at doing what they're designed to do, cast spells. They don't get the option for sneak attack or disarming traps at range like your AT does.
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When you multiclass, expect to lose something.
This is utterly false. A fighter for example, instead of getting your next fighter level, you choose to get a d6 in sneak attack, rage, animal empathy or whatever.
And with the non caster classes there are many, many examples of combos which are both effective and fun and argueably as a effective as their non caster, single class countparts.
And that's the way it it should be. Nowhere in the rules does it say you need to suffer some sort of mythological 'penalty' for multiclassing.
With very few and only one notable exception (rage chemist), is there a casting class that gains more or stays fairly close to equal footing to their single class counterpart.
So give me a logical reason why multi class non caster combos should be designed to be effective and non (primarilly) caster combos should not work? There is none.
Magical knack is the only thing that counters that.
And, as usual, actual play experience is not an any character that would want or have actual benefits from the trait being discussed.
But there are players who have chosen to dump some character concepts simply because of that lack. I know many people who love the idea of playing an Arcane Trickster, but when they did the math they chose not to go for it because of magical knack being banned means they won't be able to keep up in effectiveness. That covers 'want' or 'actual benefits' right there.