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I just don't understand why profanity is necessary. Half the time, it comes across as a desperate attempt to sound cool and edgy, and it could very well detract from the setting.
Because I don't want to spend half a sentence explaining what word I am talking about when I can use use the word.No. If I need to use them to get my point across it is just ignorant to object to them at that point.The question then becomes why do you think you need them to make your point?
I more mean, how is the word itself - or a euphemism or abbreviation thereof - vital to you making your point?
I don't swear, and I don't recall any times I've had trouble explaining myself because I wouldn't use a vulgar term.
This is less "people shouldn't swear" and more me asking "Why do people need to?", and more a curiosity than a complaint.
EDIT: Ninja'd. What Scint said.
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There are things that in canon Golarion are DEFINITELY deserving of an Adult only rating... *cough* Ogres *cough*
That said, there is no way in hell this game can possibly be rated under T.
Even if you keep out excessive blood and gore and include a language filter, theres no way that worlds of undeath ... could ever drop under that rating.
You forgot about Casper the friendly ghost, didn't you ? (And there are a lot of other examples I can give ;)
What concerns me is things like I saw in The old Republic. People saying things like "They should make one of your companions on the imperial side a slave." and other people saying.
"Nooooo! Don't put slavery in a game for my children!"
So people don't mind if their child force chokes someone but they do mind if they own a slave in a game?
I don't want to see every issue in this game endure that kind of treatment. Any game that allows you to kill anything that doesn't have googly eyes should confront adult issues, because killing people is an adult issue.
This I believe we agree on.
Goblin Squad Member
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Because I don't want to spend half a sentence explaining what word I am talking about when I can use use the word.No. If I need to use them to get my point across it is just ignorant to object to them at that point.The question then becomes why do you think you need them to make your point?I more mean, how is the word itself - or a euphemism or abbreviation thereof - vital to you making your point?
I don't swear, and I don't recall any times I've had trouble explaining myself because I wouldn't use a vulgar term.
This is less "people shouldn't swear" and more me asking "Why do people need to?", and more a curiosity than a complaint.
EDIT: Ninja'd. What Scint said.
Well first off, as I have said, profanity filters tend to block off things that are not actually profanity sometimes.
The trying to give my website address to a recruit and not being able to that I mentioned earlier in this topic was not a theoretical scenario. It actually happened back when I played Runescape, many times. Like Decius mentioned, the "Scunthorpe" problem. You can't have an effective profanity censor without blocking harmless words. Really stinks when you are trying to tell someone about growing up in Scunthorpe.
Second off, as always comes up in these censorship topics, the need to censor yourself when discussing the issue of profanity. It's ridiculous to have to refrain from using a word, when talking about that word, with people who already know that word. People need to just be adult about it. It's like political correctness. People refrain from expressing many ideas because it could offend someone. I would bring up some examples but that would probably get me banned. Which just reinforces my point. I personally feel the free expression and discussion of ideas > people's right to never be offended by anything.
Third off, I want to UNDERSTAND people using profanity. I have to deal with profanity everywhere I go in real life. The first thing I always do whenever I notice a game has profanity filters is turn them off because I have been in too many situations where someone says "You know I'm think I'm going to take a trip to see ********** this weekend." Where I am sitting there scratching my head wondering what is *******? Is he going to some lude adult show? To find out their girlfriend's name or something is censored. Or sometimes they really are swearing but I still want to know what they said.
I could probably come up with more scenarios but those are enough. Simple feature standard to MMO's including Runescape which is targeted directly at children. Profanity filter ON/OFF. If you don't want to hear those words just leave it on.
Anyone playing a game with the ability to kill other players as well us humanoid NPCs, the ability to assassinate, themes such as demons and evil deities and the ability to worship them, NEEDS to have the maturity to handle swearing and complex issues.
Again I am not arguing in favor of blood fountains, bouncing eyeballs, and dangling junk flopping in the wind. Or even NPCs swearing. I would find it far more immersive if the rude guy at the bar told me to "Go kiss a quill fiend you imp scat!" than "Go ****** yourself" because of the fantasy setting.
I'm not arguing in favor or a world set to the theme of a dingy bar for desperate people who have given up on life.
I'm hoping to see fields of flowers, paladins in polished armor, and shining cities of white stone.
But when your paladin chases that criminal into the darkest alleys of Thornkeep there does need to be that gritty adult theme where he's going to be forced to make hard choices. Anyone who can't handle that cannot handle the issue "When is violence appropriate? At what point is it ok to take a person's life? What is the difference between my paladin having to kill this murderous warlord who won't come peacefully and that murderous warlord killing that kindly old woman in cold blood?"
If you can't handle those issues, then you should not be playing this game PERIOD. Regardless of your age and it's rating. Harvest Moon 64 and Wii Sports are great titles with none of those confusing complex moral issues. They will certainly be what my children are playing until I feel they are ready for deeper moral issues. If you aren't responcible enough to do the same, it's not my problem, it's not Paizo's problem, It's not Goblinworks or the random guy swearing in general chat's problem. It's yours and I'm not going to censor myself or my roleplay to make sure your child retains an innocence you are too oblivious to realize they have already lost.
I get your point, but that's not at all an answer to what I asked. =)
Regardless I think we're just going in circles here.
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Goblin Squad Member
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That being said , my opinion is that the setting of the game has demons ,deities ,and it is a place of conflict and treachery.the game should build an atmosphere to reflect those parts where it is appropriate.
In general, at least from what I've seen in current ratings, demons, medium violence, light language, dark horror locations etc... all fall well into the teen rating.
M usually is extreme violence (IE seeing organs falling out etc...) a key offensive words (namely the one begining with F), and nudity.
I see no reason that any of the 2nd is particularly needed to convey a dark atmosphere of conflict and treachery. With the exception of a few modules by Nicholas Logue (Carnival of tears and hangman's noose), I have never seen a module for pathfinder that would come anywhere close to M via the in game descriptions unless the DM is greatly spicing up the combat descriptions.
Betreyal, backstabbing, conflict etc... while something that does take a more mature audience playing to both appriciate and not just turn it into a spitting match, is completely unrelated to ESRB, and as mentioned before, the things that do give it an M rating, will likely do more to attract the exact people that people are worried about degrading the game. I highly doubt that the majority immature bratty kids that people are worried about, actually have parents that will avoid buying a game based off a simple M rating.
As mentioned before, in Eve the depth and complexity of the game was what drew a drastically older average crowd compared to say WoW or even ultima online.
Goblinworks Founder
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Mortal kombat was banned in australia and the blood is green in germany. Now imagine if midway had to make adjustments to aim for a Teen rating. the game would probaly be Super Smash Bros. Brawl
Regarding MK, Unfortunately at the time in Australia we had some fairly extreme religious groups that had managed to get onto the censorship/ratings board and no R18+ rating for interactive media (gaming). Left for Dead 2 was also heavily censored at the time. It's quite off topic though, for an MMO even for sword & sorcery themes I don't see the need for over the top gore, slavery or profanity. I'm not offended by it at all from a fantasy perspective and apart from slavery I'm not bothered by profanity or gore. I just don't see the need for it in Pathfinder. I was a huge fan of the author Fritz Leiber as a kid and even though he dropped the C-word and other less offensive cursing in his literature, it was extremely rare and only appeared in his later work. It wasn't really needed then either and felt out of place when compared to his earlier works.
...the "Scunthorpe" problem...I hardly think this comes up so often as to be a "problem." It's more like "barely even a trivial inconvenience."
-Skeld
No, that one does come up.
"Hey, what cl*** is your character? Bard?"
I take it you don't care for Monopoly?
I remember the years of church funded book burnings. I remember my mom getting a call from my best friend's mom telling her that I could no longer play with him any more. I remember the hate.
This industry needs to be responsible. This industry needs to hold itself to a higher standard than most. Why? So we don't repeat the past.
But it wasn't the industry's fault, the whole issue was caused by nutty people fearing an imaginary evil force coming for their kids. The industry shouldn't be held hostage by religious extremists that don't like the idea of demons and naughty language.
Frankly, I don't care which way they go with the game maturity-wise (swearing, gore, slavery, these things concern me not), but I'd rather the decision be based on what will make for the best game possible, not the least offensive game possible.
IMHO it's not a matter of being "held hostage". It's simple cost/benefit analysis. Is the gaming industry best served by conducting itself in a mature and professional manner? Or is the industry best served by assuming an "anything goes" approach and giving the finger to those people who don't agree?
I am VEHEMANTLY against any form of censorship. This is not censorship in my opinion. This is good business.
I've played some campaigns where just about every horror imaginable occurs, language would have been the absolute smallest offense to even the most adult of ears. But I would NEVER suggest a game COMPANY present their material in that manner.
Want to swear in an MMO? Get a vent channel, open it up to your friends. Say whatever you want.
But it's my opinion a MMO design/development company shouldn't go down that path. It ONLY serves to hurt their interests.
And at the end of the day, their interests are our interests.
You know who makes good MMOs? Successful MMO companies.
I don't think that anyone here is advocating that the industry act "irresponsibly" or have an "anything goes approach and giving the finger to anyone who doesn't agree." (Also, when have they done these things? Like I said before, it wasn't D&D's fault that a bunch of people were pissed off about it back in the 80's.) In fact, I think the point that the people who want a more adult (and not adult in the euphemism sense) game are trying to make is that they want to see a game that deals with complex moral issues in the richest and most mature way possible, not the supposed business killing cheap thrills that you seem to be worried about. I guess I'm also confused because before it seemed that you were concerned about an uproar similar to the satanic panic of the 80's and now it's just all about "good business."
I think the fundamental difference in our stance is that I couldn't care less about their business interests. Yes, I obviously want them to succeed and get millions of subscribers and so on but MY interest is exclusively in the best game possible. If their best possible game contains things that some people considered offensive I would want them to make it anyway, even if it meant a loss of sales. I don't think that "successful" (by which I assume you mean "made lots of money") necessarily translates to "good," as you've claimed.
Like I said, I don't really care one way or another about gore or slavery or nudity or profanity in game, all I'm interested in is them making the best darn game possible and not needing to worry themselves about the sensibilites of others to do so. (See, I'm not interested in swearing in public either :) )
But that's just me.
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Goblin Squad Member
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No. If I need to use them to get my point across it is just ignorant to object to them at that point.The question then becomes why do you think you need them to make your point?
Okay, I've been watching this argument among Andius, Orthos, and a few others, and it seems to me you're all talking about slightly different things.
Andius was saying that, when discussing a particular word X, he should be able to use X (e.g., in an example sentence) rather than describe it. He is quite plainly making a distinction between such use and typical conversational use.
Orthos et al. seem to be trying to argue with someone who claims to *need* to be able to use graphic language when talking about a non-language-related topic. I don't know who this someone is, because it sure ain't Andius.
Orthos et al. seem to be trying to argue with someone who claims to *need* to be able to use graphic language when talking about a non-language-related topic. I don't know who this someone is, because it sure ain't Andius.
Yeah, hence my "arguing in circles" comment. I had to go reread the thread for context because I didn't get where his answer had anything at all to do with what I asked. I'd missed that focal point in the initial inquiry.
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Goblin Squad Member
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...the "Scunthorpe" problem...I hardly think this comes up so often as to be a "problem." It's more like "barely even a trivial inconvenience."
-Skeld
Have you actually ever played a game with a censor you can't turn off? I really have to ask because that statement really infers that you haven't. They can be MADDENINGLY frustrating depending on the harmless word they sensor. For instance how do you rephrase the word "Scuthorpe." You really can't, there isn't a 2nd word you can use for a specific location.