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Pathfinder Society® General Discussion

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I've participated in several sessions of PFS at my local friendly game store, and while I sincerely enjoy the gaming environment, and the hospitality of the game store owners, game organizers, and GM's that contribute their time, I would like to vent a little about my impression of PFS play.

It's not a role playing game. It's a competition. It SHOULD be a role playing game.

I watched players sitting behind their laptops shouting rules at one another across the table, all with an air of righteous excitement that "here is a venue where I get to show off". They were everywhere. Even the GM's were sometimes dumbfounded.

A character sheet wasn't a list of stats, but a list of "I've made all the right choices, and now I'm going to prove it by beating anything you throw at me, and furthermore, I'm entitled to whatever rewards the book says. You, the GM are just here to facilitate my progress." Was there a story? Yeah, I think so. Something about a druid's circle stone had to be kept from the daylight and some Fay wanted to destroy it, but all that was lost as everyone competed to show off their "builds". My poor cleric became overshadowed by flying witches casting "slumber" hexes everywhere. The poor GM even neglected to spot that "cackling" doesn't sustain that spell, and the players got away with it repeatedly, even while they themselves demonstrated how well they knew the rules, or could find said rules on their laptops.

I had a discussion with one of the GM's who told me he doesn't like players who play Inquisitors "because of all their swift actions", and it struck me that competing against the GM is how so many players see it, and it's really too bad. I like GM'ing games, but I'm not certain I could do PFS, with its pre-made adventures, pre-determined loot, and sense of entitlement and "build competition" everyone brings to the table. Not my kind of fun.
/rant

Andoran *****

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

Organized play may not be for you then.

Cheliax

Sounds like a crappy group man, sorry :l At least the GMs seem cool, and it's just the players that are obnoxious (there are plenty of players out there, not so many GMs). I know for a fact that not all societies are like that (our isn't!), so there's still hope for you yet!

Taldor **

I´m sorry you feel that way. Perhaps if you´re in the Copenhagen area sometime you could play with the PFS chapter in Copenhagen? Nicest bunch of guys, some terrific roleplaying and generally a beer or two afterwards for those who wish to have a chat.

At least that´s been my experience so far and I absolutely love it.

Sure you come across "build" types here and there, but so long as that´s balanced with good roleplaying I don´t mind.

Just try and keep in mind that we´re not all like this. Some of us actually like the company and roleplaying.


Not all PFS games are like that, but it does happen. The fact that the GM's hands are tied is something I don't like, but I do see how it promotes fairness for the players.

If a rule is being ignored you may have to bring proof of it. Even the best of us gets rules mixed up.

PS:You might want to try to get a select group of players at your table also if you do ever try to GM.

Shadow Lodge ****

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Hey dude. I was in that game with you, and while I had fun, I can totally understand your frustration. I should note that (at least in my opinion), not all games are like that. Sometimes it's just a matter of finding people you enjoy playing with and making sure you're at their table. (And, you know, the opposite of that procedure, too.)

Shadow Lodge ****

I do feel compelled to note that, like it or not, the cleric often finds him/herself in a support role. They heal and they buff, that's kind of their thing. That's not to say that there's no options, but for a cleric to not be a support character, especially in a group with other characters optimized for damage, it requires--and I know you don't want to hear this but here it is anyway--a very deliberate build. You might have more fun with another class.


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Thanks Pathar. Nothing personal in my comments. I'm sure I'll see you guys again. I just needed to get that off my chest.

Andoran ****

Yeah PFS can be a bigger badder bestest build competition followed by a race to the end of the scenario. However if you find the right people, a group that fits your gaming style and philosophy then it can be awesome. Many of the scenarios have great storylines and challenges. The modules are even better IMO. I hope you have better luck man.

***

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I am a big fan of GM's not allowing laptops at the table, I don't allow laptops at the table. It slows down the game and becomes a rules lawyer fight.

At my home game I rule that unless I am somehow ignoring a rule that will cause a villain to live or a player to die we can discuss it after the encounter.

It's too easy to get bogged down in minutiae otherwise. I don't know how much flexibility PFS Judges have, but I believe they can say no laptops if nothing else.

Shadow Lodge ****

Owly wrote:
Thanks Pathar. Nothing personal in my comments. I'm sure I'll see you guys again. I just needed to get that off my chest.

No worries on my end. :)

Ubercroz wrote:
I am a big fan of GM's not allowing laptops at the table, I don't allow laptops at the table. It slows down the game and becomes a rules lawyer fight.

It's tempting, but a lot of people at least around these parts bring their characters pulled up in Hero Lab and use it to track statues, resources, whatever. So you'd have to declare in advance that they can't use laptops, or they'd be out of luck. Besides, we all have access to the PFSRD on our phones anyway. And at least electronic versions are searchable; pulling out books and flipping for one specific rule can take even longer.

Taldor

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

PFS play is for meeting the gaming community. I like to meet new people that's a strength of PFS. Once I find the right players I start a home game. You also meet the folks to avoid due to play style difference. You have to expect a certain amount of disappointment dems the breaks.

***

pathar wrote:


It's tempting, but a lot of people at least around these parts bring their characters pulled up in Hero Lab and use it to track statues, resources, whatever. So you'd have to declare in advance that they can't use laptops, or they'd be out of luck. Besides, we all have access to the PFSRD on our phones anyway. And at least electronic versions are searchable; pulling out books and flipping for one specific rule can take even longer.

That makes sense, especially the hero lab thing. I would think that it would take time to get people used to it, but if you say- hey print that out next time- then people would start to get used to it after a while. In an individual game I think that it could take more time, over the course of many sessions it would save time.

I also think it is the players responsibility to know what their character is capable of doing. I understand for some spells and things, but if you put it on your sheet you should be able to use it.


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It's really very impressive, to see so many people who love the game so much, trying to show complete mastery of the rules like they do. I remind myself that it's "love" of a kind that brings everyone to gaming, but when the immersion of gaming, that "gamer's rush" you get by being deep in another world is LOST (you all remember your first game, right?) ...then maybe it's time to dial-back the rules lawyering and get back into character.

Thanks for the constructive replies, everyone!

Sczarni ** RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Just remember, there is nothing in the rules that says you have to buff or heal any/everyone when playing a cleric. Just optimize your RP that way. "I will not heal you because your actions are against my beliefs" is perfectly valid phrase. "Why should I help you?" is another of my favorites. Some of the people I play with may not enjoy me forcing them to roleplay, but I enjoy RP immensely and will have it one way or another...

Too many people view the cleric as a Heal On Demand service. Playing a cleric of Abadar, you should be paid for your services. Other beliefs may entail similar transactions. What is in it for your character? There is a nice chart in the equipment section for spellcasting services. Just saying.

Grand Lodge ** RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Just to offer a little glimmer of hope here: my PFS session yesterday had us all working together to help each other, rather than competing. I was tripping the rakshasa to get her epic AC down, so the paladin and barbarian could more easily hit for their high damage, while the wizard summoned well-chosen creatures to help and the cleric patched us up after nasty lightning bolts. There wasn't the slightest hint of competition.

So take heart! :)

**** Venture-Lieutenant, Canada—Ontario aka Feegle

I flagged this thread to move it to the PFS General Discussion forum, because you may get some constructive comments from people who don't always come into the General Discussion forum. (Plus, I think it belongs there more than here. ;)

Despite everything that the Campaign Coordinator and we Venture-Officers do to make the experience the same for everyone who shows up to a PFS event, the one thing that we can't standardize are the players. Two game nights look very different depending on the players that show up.

For example, at the store where I primarily GM, the players who show up know most of the rules, will gently question when I (inevitably) make a mistake, or will politely inform when I (inevitably) ask, "Okay, remind me how that power works again?" While people do their best to make characters that aren't useless, I suspect there are few hardcore power gamers in our player base.

All this to say that if you don't have a good time with the event you go to, and you're lucky enough to live in a location where there are other game nights, then try the other one - you might find a completely different experience there.

If you aren't, then you can always start one. Grab a few friends, or some people from the game night that might be interested and mesh with your playstyle, and start up a home game. PFS is still legal play even if it's not public - and you can have fun playing some characters and use them from time to time at a local Game Day or Convention.

Good luck!

On an unrelated note:

Thomas LeBlanc wrote:
Too many people view the cleric as a Heal On Demand service. Playing a cleric of Abadar, you should be paid for your services. Other beliefs may entail similar transactions. What is in it for your character? There is a nice chart in the equipment section for spellcasting services. Just saying.

Thomas - I recognize that the question that I'm about to ask might be viewed as accusatory, and I can't figure out how to word it so it doesn't sound that way. Please know that I ask in pure curiosity, and I think that what you do with your cleric is a really novel way to 'encourage' others at your table to get into the Role-Play part of the game. With that preface:

I believe that under the Guide to Organized Play, giving another player gold or items is prohibited. If your cleric charges another for a Lesser Restoration spell, say, how do you arrange a fee? Or is the gold thing a pure RP encounter?

Andoran

I have only been to a few PFS events so far (mostly due to scheduling).

And I have seen what you described. But it was mostly limited to induhviduals at one table. They seemed to want to congregate together so it didn't bother the rest of us too much. Except when they started to try and shout each other down and we couldn't even talk at our table.

As others have said I'd suggest a different location or different night of the week. Hopefully you can get a group more to your liking.

Osirion

Decent rant.


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Never game with people you wouldn't otherwise spend an evening with.

*** RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

Ubercroz wrote:

That makes sense, especially the hero lab thing. I would think that it would take time to get people used to it, but if you say- hey print that out next time- then people would start to get used to it after a while. In an individual game I think that it could take more time, over the course of many sessions it would save time.

It's also useful when an uncommon rule question comes up "Do I lose my Dex to AC when I grapple?

As a player and GM, my laptop is good for 'sudden moments'. If I sign up to play, and we have 8+ people show up, I can grab my "Emergency GM bag" pull up a scenario I have on the mini, and run something.

Likewise, if I'm set to play Rey, and we have a sorcerer heavy party, I can whip out Mayim, because both of them are on my mini.

Silver Crusade *****

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Deluxe Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Cards, Maps Subscriber

Owly I share your frustration. I find the "my rules-fu" rules lawyering is better then yours irritating, and the as you put it "look at my build" to be tiresome.

I remember in one game I was GMing a few months ago, and the players were in rare form. I was blessed with thee rules lawyers, and they chose to argue amongst themselves over interpertations of the rules. I tried to fit the story in edge wise. Towards the end of the scenario, one of the PCs had successfully disarmed the BBEG of her +1 sword. I decided the BBEG wanted her weapon back, so she cast mage had to get the blade back.

I was then informed by one of the players that i (the GM) could not do that because mage hand didn't work on magical weapons. There was some more questions about how heavy the blade was and some one wanted to look it up.

In sheer frustration I turned on the player and said " Enough already! Do you want me to GM or not? Fine, If the (name of BBeG) cant mage hand the weapon, I'll have her take a five foot step back, and color spray you all."

At that point, I was irritated and after the color spray spell the battle had become much more precarious with a couple of characters incapacitated. At that point I didn't care if the BBeg killed all of the characters there. I wasn't sure if i wanted to do much more PFS GMing after that game.

The players apologized and promised they would try to behave better.

That experience has been the exception to the rule. I have had many more games where I enjoyed myself playing and GMing. I particularly enjoy running beginning tables where I am introducing people to the Pathfinder game.

Anyways, while I know PFS isn't for everyone, it can be lots of fun. I guess it was suggested up thread, in a gaming store environment you can learn which GMs you like and which players you dislike.

Good luck

***

Matthew Morris wrote:
Ubercroz wrote:

That makes sense, especially the hero lab thing. I would think that it would take time to get people used to it, but if you say- hey print that out next time- then people would start to get used to it after a while. In an individual game I think that it could take more time, over the course of many sessions it would save time.

It's also useful when an uncommon rule question comes up "Do I lose my Dex to AC when I grapple?

As a player and GM, my laptop is good for 'sudden moments'. If I sign up to play, and we have 8+ people show up, I can grab my "Emergency GM bag" pull up a scenario I have on the mini, and run something.

Likewise, if I'm set to play Rey, and we have a sorcerer heavy party, I can whip out Mayim, because both of them are on my mini.

Excellent points, given the highly flexible environment it does make sense to have the info at your fingertips. I have every book on my tablet so I do use that at the table- I just hate the clutter laptops often bring.

Most of my experience is not based off of PFS, to be fair so there are probably a lot of factors that are specific to the environment I don't initially consider.

Sczarni ** RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Feegle wrote:

On an unrelated note:

Thomas LeBlanc wrote:
Too many people view the cleric as a Heal On Demand service. Playing a cleric of Abadar, you should be paid for your services. Other beliefs may entail similar transactions. What is in it for your character? There is a nice chart in the equipment section for spellcasting services. Just saying.

Thomas - I recognize that the question that I'm about to ask might be viewed as accusatory, and I can't figure out how to word it so it doesn't sound that way. Please know that I ask in pure curiosity, and I think that what you do with your cleric is a really novel way to 'encourage' others at your table to get into the Role-Play part of the game. With that preface:

I believe that under the Guide to Organized Play, giving another player gold or items is prohibited. If your cleric charges another for a Lesser Restoration spell, say, how do you arrange a fee? Or is the gold thing a pure RP encounter?

Heres my top three ways:

1) I usually just ask to borrow a item, shield, or weapon for the rest of the scenario in exchange.

2) They help me pay for a spellcasting service, such as mage armor or another long lasting effect, for the adventure.

3) I rarely "encourage" (extort) someone to help pay for a raise dead for another player.

I know I can't force them to do so, but actions always have consequences.

**** Venture-Lieutenant, Canada—Ontario aka Feegle

Thomas, that is an innovative and well-thought out way to get a 'fee' out of another character without breaking the rules for the Society Campaign.

I doff my hat to you, sir. I have a Qadiran who might take lessons from you.

Paizo Employee Paizo Glitterati Robot

Moved thread.

Cheliax ****

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Maps, Modules Subscriber
Thomas LeBlanc wrote:

Just remember, there is nothing in the rules that says you have to buff or heal any/everyone when playing a cleric. Just optimize your RP that way. "I will not heal you because your actions are against my beliefs" is perfectly valid phrase. "Why should I help you?" is another of my favorites. Some of the people I play with may not enjoy me forcing them to roleplay, but I enjoy RP immensely and will have it one way or another...

Your characters are required to be members of the Pathfinder Society. Explore, Cooperate, Report.

Trying to use an in-game method to bludgeon player behavior is unproductive.

Osirion

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Another laptop issue is that some people legitimately don't like or can't afford paper everything. I would rather pay $10 a book to use on the laptop I already paid a grand for, and laptops are way better for my back than a pile of books. This year's Origins was the first one in which I did not have to bring books, and it saved me a good deal of back pain because all I needed was my computer bag, dice, and character sheets.

Though this may not be an issue for long - I saw a lot of iPads and android tablets at Origins (mine included!). I personally feel that tablets are the best of both worlds, as they allow for e-books to be used, but they don't take up nearly as much table space, nor do they create such a prominent physical wall between the players.

EDIT: I should shoot myself for the blatant misuse of an apostrophe. : P

Shadow Lodge ****

TetsujinOni wrote:
Thomas LeBlanc wrote:

Just remember, there is nothing in the rules that says you have to buff or heal any/everyone when playing a cleric. Just optimize your RP that way. "I will not heal you because your actions are against my beliefs" is perfectly valid phrase. "Why should I help you?" is another of my favorites. Some of the people I play with may not enjoy me forcing them to roleplay, but I enjoy RP immensely and will have it one way or another...

Your characters are required to be members of the Pathfinder Society. Explore, Cooperate, Report.

Trying to use an in-game method to bludgeon player behavior is unproductive.

This is a pretty good point. I've had at least one cleric-player try to tell me that it's my job to buy a wand of cure light and loan it to them if I want them to heal me. I think next time I'll tell him it'll be his job to buy me magical full plate and loan it to me if he wants me to tank for him.

Shadow Lodge *** Venture-Lieutenant, California—Silicon Valley aka JohnF

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pathar wrote:
I've had at least one cleric-player try to tell me that it's my job to buy a wand of cure light and loan it to them if I want them to heal me.

And yet you still don't seem to have got the message ...

If your party need more healing than the cleric's regular daily allocation of spells can provide (even assuming the cleric has nothing better to do), you need to be prepared to pay for the consumables.

PFS is pretty heavily wealth-by-level driven. Clerics need to save money for purchasing items for their own character, which they won't be able to do if they're expected to foot the bill for healing everybody.

Grand Lodge ****

Yeah, the worst thing in the world that happened to pen and paper RPG's is males with superiority complexes. When these chumps get in a team it's like watching one kid grab the soccer ball and start running onto the other side of the oval. You are doing it wrong!

The happy thing is, not all PFS tables are like the one you experienced. Many are, but many are not.

Shadow Lodge **

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

If they're using their computers to keep track of their characters and any sources they may be using for them, that's fine. If they're using them to nitpick other characters and players, or worse, surfing Youtube, that shouldn't be happening.

Cheliax ****

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Maps, Modules Subscriber
pathar wrote:


This is a pretty good point. I've had at least one cleric-player try to tell me that it's my job to buy a wand of cure light and loan it to them if I want them to heal me. I think next time I'll tell him it'll be his job to buy me magical full plate and loan it to me if he wants me to tank for him.

Hold up, Pathar - I would hold out the opinion that if you're a damage sponge character, it's your job to cooperate by investing some of your WBL in healing yourself. It's perfectly reasonable for a cleric to have an issue with having to use ALL of their play resources for healing up the rest of the party.

If that cleric is a battle cleric build intending to frontline, with negative channeling and no ability to spontaneously heal, and they are filling that role well.... then they're perfectly reasonable in their position that you're not going to get healing from them in combat, and not out of combat without providing resources to do it.

There's many ways to play a cleric. If they're not playing the 'first aid kit' role, then they're not playing that role.

Osirion

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The Shifty Mongoose wrote:
If they're using their computers to keep track of their characters and any sources they may be using for them, that's fine. If they're using them to nitpick other characters and players, or worse, surfing Youtube, that shouldn't be happening.

Oh, very much agreed. I find that computers are least disruptive when they are present but an internet connection is not. Without computers, there's too much waiting for that one book everybody needs to be passed around, but I've dealt with my fair share of problem players messing around on the web.

I asked nicely for that behavior to stop, and it's mostly toned down, but I seriously considered turning the router off, or changing the password so only I (the GM) could use it during the game.

EDIT: I'm surprised. I really thought it was just assumed, at this point, that everyone brings their own "happy stick" (wand of CLW) and gets healed off of their own charges when spells/channels are not available. Every one of my PCs spent their first two Prestige on a happy stick so nobody else would be burdened with using resources to heal me. Many GMs and players I have spoken to believe that it's not even a matter of politeness or carrying your own weight - it's survival because low and mid level clerics will not have enough cure spells to heal the damage a party can take. Of course, someone being a huge jerk about it is still way out of line. You don't do that as a favor to the cleric - you buy a happy stick for your own good and by extension the whole party.

Double edit: The original edit came off a bit meaner than I really intended so I toned it down. I just meant to compare my own experience, which is that most people I know take the wand thing as a given, but they've been really nice about it.

Cheliax

Totally agree Owly. PFS is a great place to start, find those you want to play with and set up a home game.

Grand Lodge ***** Venture-Captain, Illinois—Decatur aka TwilightKnight

Try to remember that not everyone enjoys their gaming the same way. For us "older" gamers, we are more likely to have grown up during the "golden age" of gaming where the rules were much leaner and more of the game existing in your imagination, resulting in a more "role" playing heavy game. Most of us never even used miniatures and such until 3E. Contrast that with younger players who may have been introduced to gaming through console games or WOW. They may have never developed an understanding/passion for the "role" playing side of the game as they were exposed to rules-heavy systems that focused on optimization, mechanical synergy, and pure combat. There is really nothing wrong with either version (or combination thereof), but you have to know your players. One of the pro's of PFS (meet new people) can also be a con if those people have very different play styles than your own.

Grand Lodge ** RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

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Total Derail:
Heh, reading Bob's bit about older and newer gamers, I feel like I'm in a weird position. When I was a kid, I didn't know RPGs existed, and was limited in the amount of time I could play video games (an hour a week). So my brothers and I kept taking elements of our favorite games and creating paper-based things to do with them: we broke down the leveling systems from video game RPGs, we created "shops" from which to buy parts to build spaceships from Star Fox, we designed Mega Man villains, etc.

When I got older, I started playing collectable card games, eventually even taking the test to become a certified Rules Advisor for Magic: the Gathering (a certification which I keep current, despite not playing anymore). Once I started PFS about a year ago, I dove into the rules with total abandon, reading every new rule I encountered in the game. I'm a rules guy.

So clearly I'm the in the video game category Bob talked about, right?

Well... My favorite video game of all time is EarthBound. I love the story. Heck, last Lent, I played through it and blogged a series of life lessons that could be drawn from it. It's more important to me as a story than any other story I've seen, heard or read. Other RPGs, with better graphics or more engaging battle mechanics, just don't cut it. I've even stopped playing some pretty mechanically-impressive ones because I couldn't stand the story.

I played DnD Encounters a couple of times, and I appreciated the tactically-engaging combats... But I vastly prefer the stories happening in PFS scenarios over the "walk forward then fight" setup of Encounters. I love the world of Golarion. I love the difference between Andoran and Cheliax, between halflings and gnomes, between Shaonti and Ulfen.

So where does that leave me? I love mastering the rules, and I love the setting and characters. I get frustrated with Bob's "veteran" camp when they look down on anything mechanically-creative that breaks their dearly-held traditions, and I get frustrated with the "new kid" camp when they expect fights to be brought to them on a conveyor belt without even knowing what country they're in. But every time I call one of them out, they assume I'm from the opposite camp.

And don't even get me started on "Roll VS Role", where the very concept is trying to tell me that I can't exist.

*sigh*

Sczarni ** RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Exactly, JohnF and TetsujinOni! I play 2 clerics. One spontaneously casts inflict spells instead of cure spells. He has 1 cure wand for himself.

If I spent my wealth on cure wands and potions, I would never get a chance to play that character how I want to. What happens if a PFS group doesn't have a cleric? Is one person expected to buy healing for the whole party? No, it should be each individuals responsibility to have their own items. So what if you heavily optimized death dealer can't scythe down a whole dungeon by himself because he had to buy a few potions or a wand.

TetsujinOni wrote:
Trying to use an in-game method to bludgeon player behavior is unproductive.

Sometimes the baseball bat works better than a sweetie. Worked pretty well both times I had to resort to it in PFS play.


Thomas LeBlanc wrote:

Just remember, there is nothing in the rules that says you have to buff or heal any/everyone when playing a cleric. Just optimize your RP that way. "I will not heal you because your actions are against my beliefs" is perfectly valid phrase. "Why should I help you?" is another of my favorites. Some of the people I play with may not enjoy me forcing them to roleplay, but I enjoy RP immensely and will have it one way or another...

Too many people view the cleric as a Heal On Demand service. Playing a cleric of Abadar, you should be paid for your services. Other beliefs may entail similar transactions. What is in it for your character? There is a nice chart in the equipment section for spellcasting services. Just saying.

Then you have the unfortunate encounters I have. Like last session. our cleric (of Pharasma) said to me (1/2 orc rogue) "You guys don't know how to treat your dead do you?" I said "What do you mean by that?" Whereupon he cast some spell on me causing me to have horrible visions of the afterlife. No explanation. No nothing. When I asked why he cast these visions on me he said, "Fine, if you don't like it I wont cast 'any' spells on you then".

Shadow Lodge ****

JohnF wrote:

And yet you still don't seem to have got the message ...

If your party need more healing than the cleric's regular daily allocation of spells can provide (even assuming the cleric has nothing better to do), you need to be prepared to pay for the consumables.

Way to assume, dude. The guy in question didn't want to actually spend any of his spells or channels on healing us. And he was playing a buff-build cleric. Also--kicker--it was my first session with this character, so it was impossible for me to have that wand.

TetsujinOni wrote:
Hold up, Pathar - I would hold out the opinion that if you're a damage sponge character, it's your job to cooperate by investing some of your WBL in healing yourself. It's perfectly reasonable for a cleric to have an issue with having to use ALL of their play resources for healing up the rest of the party.

So, the fact that I'm letting all the damage be concentrated on me means I have to pay to heal it ... but if I let other people take it instead, then it's not my problem?

So if I stop tanking, everyone wins! I guess I'll let the wizard do it.

Brox RedGloves wrote:
Then you have the unfortunate encounters I have. Like last session. our cleric (of Pharasma) said to me (1/2 orc rogue) "You guys don't know how to treat your dead do you?" I said "What do you mean by that?" Whereupon he cast some spell on me causing me to have horrible visions of the afterlife. No explanation. No nothing. When I asked why he cast these visions on me he said, "Fine, if you don't like it I wont cast 'any' spells on you then".

That seems to fall well within the region of player-on-player unpleasantness. I don't think your GM ever should have let that spell go through--I certainly wouldn't have.

Grand Lodge ** RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

"I have to pay for my tanking gear" will be a valid argument when your sword starts costing you 15gp per swing.

Taldor

Ha.

As a long time player of the game I am pleased that the folks who were indoctrined into "builds" and competetive gaming have found Pathfinder RPG to their liking.

However, I too have been turned off from PFS due to this nonsense.

It's as though the mainstream traffic of gamers who play, were never introduced to a roleplaying game by someone who could guide them toward character development, improvisation, and participation in the game in a way that valued and contributed to the story.

While my opinions sound judgmental, and they are, I am learning to cope with recognizing that a lot of folks don't play rpgs like they used to, and the folks who still do, are in a smaller percentage.

I blame a few things for this: kids learning about rpgs through video games, the wotc splatbooks and focus on "builds", and the turning over of the entire ruleset to all players in an effort to sell more books in the 2000s. If you consider the rpg game model pre-2000, there were books for the GM and books for players. And there was a built-in understanding that players shouldn't view the information belonging to the GM. But just as 2-player video games are now hard to find, video game companies want to sell a copy to every person, not just 1 copy for a group to play. Similarly wotc focused on "builds" for years, a step that is more akin to card-gaming and their background in Magic the Gathering than any kind of traditional rpg game.

So now we stand in the 2010s, and I've reconciled that the rpg game is very enjoyable, even when the cruncy bits are tossed around like a salad for tournament style gaming to occur. On the one hand, it is great that so many who enjoy that style of play have found goodness in Pathfinder. Its the best incarnation of the game yet, and I'm glad it has such wide appeal.

I have no recourse, however, but to say that organized gaming isn't for me. Which is a pity. For it would be most easy to have two styles of organized gaming rather than 1. One for the competetive "build" monsters, and one for the roleplayers that isn't so full of inherent structure and paperwork, nor bound by duration.

Bottom line is, I've observed PFS at GENCON last year and found the same style of play. Its far more prevalent than just a one-off GM. Its systemic. And as I am a huge fan of Pathfinder RPG, I just need to get over it, and keep playing my home group games.

Grand Lodge

Jiggy wrote:
** spoiler omitted **...

I'm with you there 100%. Even though I started gaming in the "golden age", I still like the post 3.0 tactical bits of 4TH/PATHFINDER/3.5 etc. I have a history of, ahmm, politely engaging both camps you mentioned when they trash old or new school D&D (or as my wife calls it, using my *military* voice). I just love the game in all its incarnations, and there's bits I cant relate to or cant stand about each edition. But its all D&D to me.

Osirion **

Generic post outline.

1. State or infer my gaming pedigree to imply that my experience and or age makes me "right" before I try to make a point.

2. Complain about the nature of the beast without having anything resembling a reasonable or rational solution.

3. Get off my lawn. Otherwise known as: Blame it on those meddling kids these days.

4. Resist Change

5. Forget that if you are unhappy with the game, it most likely has more to to with yourself and the other people at the table than it does the game system!

Qadira ****

Joko PO wrote:

Generic post outline.

let me see what I can do with this...

Joko PO wrote:


1. State or infer my gaming pedigree to imply that my experience and or age makes me "right" before I try to make a point.

Ah... been playing a long time. first started in, ah, 1975... so, 30+ years...

Joko PO wrote:


2. Complain about the nature of the beast without having anything resembling a reasonable or rational solution.

Always the same complaints ... I can remember Min-Maxers back in old D&D, out of the tan box... and I think I first heard the comment "just playing my character" at a table in 1976.

Joko PO wrote:


3. Get off my lawn. Otherwise known as: Blame it on those meddling kids these days.

"you're what's distroying my hobby" first heard at a game in the 80's.

Joko PO wrote:


4. Resist Change

been thru so many changes... mostly they all look the same. Are elves taller than humans in this rule set? Where the heck did we get GREEN orcs?

Joko PO wrote:


5. Forget that if you are unhappy with the game, it most likely has more to to with yourself and the other people at the table than it does the game system!

Remember that if you are having fun in "the game, it most likely has more to to with yourself and the other people at the table than it does the game system!"

how's that?

Osirion **

nosig wrote:


how's that?

Well since I have only been gaming since 1988 and you since 1975, you must be correct! (<------lighthearted jest! Nobody panic.)

Qadira ****

Joko PO wrote:
nosig wrote:


how's that?

Well since I have only been gaming since 1988 and you since 1975, you must be correct! (<------lighthearted jest! Nobody panic.)

I almost never admit that I have been gaming that long.

but here's a one for you...

I remember when it was cheaper to buy the rule books new than photocopy them (at $0.10 a page)...
ah, ... a photocopier is a sort of combined scanner-printer that you... heck I feel old again...

Andoran ***

nosig wrote:
Joko PO wrote:
nosig wrote:


how's that?

Well since I have only been gaming since 1988 and you since 1975, you must be correct! (<------lighthearted jest! Nobody panic.)

I almost never admit that I have been gaming that long.

but here's a one for you...

I remember when it was cheaper to buy the rule books new than photocopy them (at $0.10 a page)...
ah, ... a photocopier is a sort of combined scanner-printer that you... heck I feel old again...

Heh. Libraries and (Kinko's/FedEx Office) type places still have them. And they can be bought as one of the functions of an MFP.

Now, if you had mentioned some of the older copying type machines, like the mimeograph, that shows your age.

Then again, when I was growing up, my dad's company had its own printing department, and I would work in it during the summer. And that, as well, is how I wound up as "publisher" for a year for my high school's literary magazine.

Remind me to be careful visiting Wikis, since the company names mentioned brought back memories. Yeesh. Oh, and I have been playing D&D, in various flavors, since 1979, which is also the year I first went to GenCon (Yay Parkside)

Shadow Lodge *** Venture-Lieutenant, California—Silicon Valley aka JohnF

nosig wrote:
I remember when it was cheaper to buy the rule books new than photocopy them (at $0.10 a page)...

I remember when it wasn't.

The three original rulebooks have 36, 40 and 36 pages.

But you could photocopy a double-page spread at a time, so even if you copied the inner and outer covers that's only 62 two-page sheets.
At $0.10 a page that would cost you $6.20; the 3-book set cost $10.00

Shadow Lodge ***** Venture-Captain, California—San Diego

Pax Veritas wrote:

<snip> It's as though the mainstream traffic of gamers who play, were never introduced to a roleplaying game by someone who could guide them toward character development, improvisation, and participation in the game in a way that valued and contributed to the story.

<snip>

Pax - If you ever make it out to San Diego let us know. Story is thriving in San Diego and many otherplaces in California.

It might not be your particular flavor but please be aware that the gaming culture shifts from region to region.

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