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Charged for PFS


Pathfinder Society® General Discussion

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***

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A nearby hobby store is charging 5$ to play for PFS. I guess it's his right to do so, but he's implied that it is a 'part' of PFS, not his policy. He's also implying that he's the 'head person' to deal with for PFS, not the venture captain. Understand, he's not said anything outright, but controls the system in his area with a tight fist.

Does anyone have suggestions on how to breach this palisade? I want gamers to know the full truth about the PFS, which can be played exactly the same way, less than a half hour away, for free. Nor do I want to alienate him and his business, because he is the only game in town, so to speak. One bad owner shouldn't be able to ruin the campaign for a large community that could have a phenomenal pathfinder following if treated right.

My Ideas coalescing so far is a paizo-approved brochure that states some pointed details out, while also introducing what PFS is to new players. Included Paizo links for more information, volunteers to contact, etc. Then at least the power to choose would be directly in the player's hand. Quite frankly, I would also like to see an ad or two on TV, or Hulu too.

I plan on regularly visiting this store, as a player and an active member of the PFS volunteer team, so getting into an all out grudge match with them is out of the question. I think we can come down to an equitable idea as a community, give me your best.

Shadow Lodge

I think if he's really decided that he is "the head person" then you really are not going to be able to "steal his customers" without it alienating him.

***

Yea, but I am more afraid of the bad rep we get for his choice of monetary compensation. One player has a good experience, and he'll tell another person. One player has a bad experience, and he'll tell everyone.

Osirion

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Pathfinder Deluxe Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Cards, Companion, Maps, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber

If he really implies that the charge is part of PFS instead of being his own policy, he is actively lying to his potential players and customers in way potentially harmhul to PFS and Paizo.

Calling himself 'the head person' is an indicator that he might be less than proficiant (or/and interested) in the PFS rules.

It would be best not to condone this in any way and to inform potential PFS players in the area of this problem. Better no game than a bad (and expensive) game, better no store (hey internet stores) than a bad local store.

While not brochures, the 'one sheet' and the Guide to PFS are quite handy for information and since neither of those documents mentions a mandatory fee, your 'head persons' fraud is easily exposed.

Best of luck, but don't let one bad apple soil others.


Is this guy letting you use 60 square feet of his store for four hours for only 5 dollars, and finding friends for you at the same time?

Try to be a little grateful.

Osirion

3 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Deluxe Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Cards, Companion, Maps, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber

The problem wouldn't be that he is charging $5, but that he implies this was part of the PFS rules.

Andoran *****

Paizo Charter Superscriber; Pathfinder Deluxe Comics Subscriber

So I have heard of stores charging to play games there, but $5 seems to be higher then normal.

I would suggest just talking to the guy, get the exact details out of him why he is charging.

Have a talk to talk explaining how PFS actually is if you have to.

Andoran

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Its one thing if he is charging for table space for people to play.

Its another if he is saying to play PFS you have to pay, as it implies it goes to Paizo.

Osirion

6 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Cards, Companion, Maps, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

If he were open with the customers, said "The rent on this place is $xx per month, I need to be earning from every available sq ft to make that amount. If your game table wasn't there, I'd be able to have a rack of minis, or some other product that would be making sales. In order to justify giving up that rack space, I will need every player to pay a nominal rent of $5.", then that would be fine.

I can imagine many players would be fine with that, and still pay, especially if they can't otherwise get a group together.

It's also time for the usual PFS players to be honest with themselves; do they actually purchase anything from the store, or do they sit around throwing their food on the flor, bragging about how many files they downloaded from torrent sites this week? Is their behaviour polite and respectful to the other customers? Are they good ambassadors for the hobby? Do they actually help the store make sales?

***

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unfortunately, cranewings, if I'm going to represent paizo and PFS in a professional capacity, I will have to become somewhat of a busybody, since the who/what/why/where/and hows of organizing PFS is something that must remain as paizo intends it.

Head person is my terminology, not the store owner's. I simply don't wish to start a 'misquoting' flame war.

And in my short experience, there hasn't been one player or gm for PFS that hasn't bent over backwards to make the store managers and owners happy about having them in shop, is there really a section out there that is as offensive? especially since a gm is expected to adjudicate whether the material used for a player's character is legitimate. I'd say bragging about torrenting material is the quintessential red flag.

Anyways, I don't really want to discuss the morality of the situation, but avenues on how to solve it. It's going to be awkward trying to get the material into the players hands.

Andoran ** Venture-Lieutenant, North Carolina—Fayetteville

It's not smart business on his part, either. Players who come to PFS games buy books and dice and minis. PFS games are bringing foot traffic into his store.

*

1 person marked this as a favorite.

I'd like to point out that everyone reading this has the option to NOT go to their local store and buy the same materials from Amazon or a number of other RPG sites for up to 20% less than brick and mortar stores offer the some of the same items for.

If the customers are expected to "be grateful" they have a place to play, store owners should also "be grateful" people are walking into the store to buy things.

If my local game shop (Redcap's Corner in philly!!) charged me I'd still go there, but wouldn't ave gotten any of my books or expansions from them.


Charlie Bell wrote:
It's not smart business on his part, either. Players who come to PFS games buy books and dice and minis. PFS games are bringing foot traffic into his store.

This isn't necessarily helpful when it comes to RPG players. When I worked in a game store we made our money on war games > CCGs > board games > comic books > RPGs. No one ever made as big of a mess, had as much of a problem with language, or stayed as long as role players.

We never had an accountant come in and check it out, but it was pretty clear the RPGers were a drag. My LFGS, either of them, have less TTRPG material than anything else they sell in discourage table time for RPGers in favor of a tournament or night of almost any other game: magic, pokemon, flames of war, warhammer, even board game night. Weekly RPGers get last pick on the tables. I do not blame them or ever wonder about this.

Paizo Employee Digital Products Assistant

Removed a post and the replies to it. Please don't be abusive to other posters.

Moved thread.

** Venture-Lieutenant, Croatia—Zagreb

His "business" would go down fairly quickly by organizing free PFS conventions in nearby area.


cranewings wrote:
Charlie Bell wrote:
It's not smart business on his part, either. Players who come to PFS games buy books and dice and minis. PFS games are bringing foot traffic into his store.

This isn't necessarily helpful when it comes to RPG players. When I worked in a game store we made our money on war games > CCGs > board games > comic books > RPGs. No one ever made as big of a mess, had as much of a problem with language, or stayed as long as role players.

We never had an accountant come in and check it out, but it was pretty clear the RPGers were a drag. My LFGS, either of them, have less TTRPG material than anything else they sell in discourage table time for RPGers in favor of a tournament or night of almost any other game: magic, pokemon, flames of war, warhammer, even board game night. Weekly RPGers get last pick on the tables. I do not blame them or ever wonder about this.

When i owned my own game store, our biggest problem was the collectible gamers. No other group made as big of a mess, yelled louder, took up more table space, or spent less money than the TCG players. Also, RPG books have the highest markup of near anything else in the store at 53%. TCG markup was between 20% and 0 depending on the brand, and Clix you were lucky if you could get $2 a pack over cost. Also TCG Players usually had this mentality of "i already have what i need, so i dont want to buy the new stuff" where RPG players would typically buy the new books the first week it came out. Typically the only way for TCGs to justify their restock cost was to charge entry fee for tournaments and give that money as store credit. Role players on the other hand would buy drinks and snacks every session.

Now this is coming at it from the financial side of things. Each store owner looks at things differently and has different priorities and "hierarchies of gaming" as it were. If a particular owner dislikes RPG's or thinks of RPG players as freeloaders or campers (maybe because they are buying their books through Amazon instead of his store) then they are more likely to give preferential treatment to where their money is coming from. Fortunately it is not difficult at all to organize a player base to go to another store, or even open a new one if no store is accommodating. Even if you dont want to run a retail store, you can still rent a small building for a "gaming group hangout" and charge a small membership fee (depending on your area. here would be approx $10 a month, the group in Memphis charges $40 a month) and with the appropriate licenses you can get distributor accounts and completely bypass the Unfriendly local gaming store.

I guess things look a lot different if you are a store owner, or simply just work at one.

Qadira *****

1 person marked this as a favorite.

I would definitely contact your local Venture Captain/Lieutenant and let them know about the situation and how you feel about it. Work with them.

In most Colorado venues, we do ask for 2$ to go to the GM in store credit. The buy-in has turned away some, but many come to play every event we have.

JP

Grand Lodge *** Venture-Captain, New Mexico—Alburquerque aka Digitalsabre

shadowmage75 wrote:

A nearby hobby store is charging 5$ to play for PFS. I guess it's his right to do so, but he's implied that it is a 'part' of PFS, not his policy. He's also implying that he's the 'head person' to deal with for PFS, not the venture captain. Understand, he's not said anything outright, but controls the system in his area with a tight fist.

Does anyone have suggestions on how to breach this palisade? I want gamers to know the full truth about the PFS, which can be played exactly the same way, less than a half hour away, for free. Nor do I want to alienate him and his business, because he is the only game in town, so to speak. One bad owner shouldn't be able to ruin the campaign for a large community that could have a phenomenal pathfinder following if treated right.

My Ideas coalescing so far is a paizo-approved brochure that states some pointed details out, while also introducing what PFS is to new players. Included Paizo links for more information, volunteers to contact, etc. Then at least the power to choose would be directly in the player's hand. Quite frankly, I would also like to see an ad or two on TV, or Hulu too.

I plan on regularly visiting this store, as a player and an active member of the PFS volunteer team, so getting into an all out grudge match with them is out of the question. I think we can come down to an equitable idea as a community, give me your best.

I regularly ask for a donation for running PFS at my FLGS. I don't charge. Donation is completely voluntary, and often I get anywhere from a few bucks to twenty. However, I'm not the store owner. Our FLGS is amazing in that they give us the space for to use without asking compensation. Another store in town charges a fee for their private rooms, and on nights when I would prefer to run PFS the non-private tables are full of either Magic players or wargames players.

Were I in your position, I would talk to the store owner and try to figure out where his priorities lie. If he's just trying to get people into the store to buy stuff, it would be better if he didn't charge for PFS (personally, i'd think that's a fairly obvious observation). If, on the other hand, he doesn't care where people get their merchandise, he can do whatever he wants... so long as he's not representing the fee to play as something that's required by Paizo.

I think he's hobbling PFS in your area, though. Especially if you feel like you'd be stealing his paying customers by running for free or on a donations-only basis.

If you can convince him to rethink his policy, I'm (while not sure, at least) confident he'll see how it's definitely not beneficial to him to charge. If on top of that you can convince him that you'll be willing to GM some tables at his store regularly, the foot traffic you bring in would likely lead to additional local purchases.

In the end, it might be as easy as saying, "Please don't make me have to decide between buying books from you and the opportunity to use them in your store."

Cheliax *

Is the store, buying modules, printing them, and providing certs? If so, I'd have no problem paying 5 bucks, and from a flip perspective, I'd have no problem saying the costs are due (partly) to Paizo for charging for mods. At the end of the day a Business is there to make money, not lose it.

Osirion ***** Venture-Captain, South Carolina—Lexington aka DCII

Besides convention fees or event fees or the like and can tell you it is not a PART of PFS that you have to pay to play - with the exception being someone has to buy the scenario.

But, I have several stores in my region that charge $5 a seat to those wanting to use their tables and space and resources, etc. It is becoming more common in my travels to encounter stores like this. YOU SHOULD SUPPORT THEM! They are providing you with a place to play.

Shadow Lodge

No one's saying we're against the stores charging for use of their store. Sadly the posts explaining this got deleted due to quoting the offensive post that started the derail.

We're saying that it's wrong and a sleazebag move for the shop owner to claim the charge is part of PFS and not just something the business itself enacted.

Simply put: We have no problem with people making money. We have problems with them lying about it.

*

Orthos wrote:
No one's saying we're against the stores charging for use of their store.

Not for nothing but that is EXACTLY what I am saying.

Please don't speak for me.

"A place to play" is not enough of an incentive for me to overlook being charged to come to a store and play with the games I purchased at that very store.

Granted I am a grown adult and a "place to play" is as far away as my dining room table, so I possibly have a different set of priorities and expectaions than some other players, but I think the games, books, dice, minis, maps, expansions and modules more than make up for the few pages the store has to print for me once a week.

I'm sure most people do not agree with this stance, but for the record this is my opinion on the matter.

Osirion ***** Venture-Captain, South Carolina—Lexington aka DCII

Lochmonster wrote:
Orthos wrote:
No one's saying we're against the stores charging for use of their store.

Not for nothing but that is EXACTLY what I am saying.

I know lots of people that have that very same opinion and I know lots of people that are happy to pay as well.

Silver Crusade ****

2 people marked this as a favorite.

We have a store that charges nothing, and we have a store that charges $5 per player as a "cover charge" and then gives the GM's $1.50 per player at their table for GMing.

It has turned some players away, but as there are other opportunities to game nearby that charge nothing. I don't argue, and actively support it because it supports the FLGS. Oh, and the cover charge acts as store credit. They give you tokens that are worth $5, and can be saved.

Osirion ***** Venture-Captain, South Carolina—Lexington aka DCII

Supporting your GM and Store! That's awesome!

Grand Lodge ** RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Daniel Luckett wrote:
It has turned some players away, but as there are other opportunities to game nearby that charge nothing. I don't argue, and actively support it because it supports the FLGS. Oh, and the cover charge acts as store credit. They give you tokens that are worth $5, and can be saved.

Do they tell the players that it's a Paizo/PFS thing? Because if not, then that's not really relevant to the OP's concern.

Shadow Lodge

Lochmonster wrote:
Orthos wrote:
No one's saying we're against the stores charging for use of their store.

Not for nothing but that is EXACTLY what I am saying.

Please don't speak for me.

Didn't notice your post, sorry. So I wasn't. =)

Silver Crusade ****

1 person marked this as a favorite.

As far as the OP's concern, I think it's been answered time and time again. I'm letting them know that it's not abnormal, and the only real concern is the "authority" that the store is claiming to support their price with. Why they would claim PFS is charging someone and not themself is beyond me. Talk to your local VO, have them communicate with the store, and see what happens.

Regardless of how that goes, you'll probably still pay $5 to sit there and play. Especially if your VC is like me and supports the stores decision to make some money for the space they offer. A store owner gave these numbers to me 200 times more profit made from MTG compared to all of the RPG section alone in 2011. I hope to shrink that difference in 2012.

Andoran

I think it is quite reasonable and fair that a gaming store charge a small fee for the use of their space. If a person doesn't wish to pay such a fee, they can base their gaming group in their own home/apartment, or attempt to find an alternate free venue. After all, the store has to pay for the rent of the space, electricity, tables, chairs, setup and cleanup, as well as for dedicating their space for this specific purpose. A business is not a charity and; as a gamer, I do not feel that I am entitled to the free use of others' space.

*

Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

On PFS Table Fees: The SF Bay Area has numerous stores dealing with table fees in many different ways. Click the times under each store name in the left hand column here: http://bayareapathfinder.com/

Each store should be able to charge or not charge or somewhere in between as that store owner sees fit. Their choice will dictate their result.

Anyway - let's get back to the real request in this post: how to inform players that this store's way of doing things is not mandated by PFS.

I'd just offer to GM a game or sign up to play and point out the rules issues in conversation. If enough people know and POLITELY approach said owner about it, he'll be forced to change or risk losing those customers. Again, his choice leads to his result.

Silver Crusade ****

Eelario wrote:


Anyway - let's get back to the real request in this post: how to inform players that this store's way of doing things is not mandated by PFS.

I'd just offer to GM a game or sign up to play and point out the rules issues in conversation. If enough people know and POLITELY approach said owner about it, he'll be forced to change or risk losing those customers. Again, his choice leads to his result.

This is increasingly seeming like a non-issue to me. You tell them. You post in your sign up section that FLGS yadda yadda has a $x.xx cover charge. You ask/inform the store owner that appears to be a misconception regarding PFS policy. I tend to be pretty point blank with my store owners if something doesn't seem right. If they take offense to it, I won't sign tables there anymore, and they lose my support.

The bigger an issue you make of it, the more of an issue it will be. If you treat it like it's not a big deal, it won't be a big deal.

Cheliax *** Venture-Lieutenant, Texas—Dallas & Ft. Worth aka drayen

During the Living Greyhawk days, it was very common for game stores in Southern California hosting store events to charge a $5 cover fee. You kept your receipt, both to show you had paid the cover and in case you bought some product. If you did buy some kind of product (not concessions) and showed your receipt, you got $5 off of the price of the purchase. This allowed the game stores to receive some compensation for the use of their space while encouraging players to make purchases in store.

My advice is to approach the store owner and present this as an alternative. Create a solution which promotes the game and the store.

Shadow Lodge ***** Venture-Captain, Washington—Eastern Washington aka WalterGM

JP Chapleau wrote:
I would definitely contact your local Venture Captain/Lieutenant and let them know about the situation and how you feel about it. Work with them.

This is a great idea. Your local VL/VC should be notified of this store since they are the real "head persons" for PFS in your area.

**

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

At Gamer's Inn in Mesa, AZ, the VC used to collect a $1 from each (non-GM) player -- which, as I understand it, was used to buy store credit for the GMs. It seemed like a good system: It encouraged people to GM and generated a little more business for the store. It's been a while since I've gone, so I'm not sure if they still do it.

**

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Martin Kauffman 530 wrote:
I think it is quite reasonable and fair that a gaming store charge a small fee for the use of their space. If a person doesn't wish to pay such a fee, they can base their gaming group in their own home/apartment, or attempt to find an alternate free venue. After all, the store has to pay for the rent of the space, electricity, tables, chairs, setup and cleanup, as well as for dedicating their space for this specific purpose. A business is not a charity and; as a gamer, I do not feel that I am entitled to the free use of others' space.

Agreed -- a nominal fee is perfectly reasonable. However, a well-run store should be able to turn the increased traffic into revenue, especially in the form of sodas, snacks, etc. -- no charity required.

Qadira *** Venture-Captain, Texas—Dallas & Ft. Worth aka Thorkull

In a way, I have to side with the store owner here. It's his space, he can charge however much he wants for its use.

If he's claiming to be something he's not (an official representative of Paizo or the campaign staff) then that's a separate issue.

Sczarni *** Venture-Lieutenant, Connecticut—Manchester aka Cpt_kirstov

Jonathan Cary wrote:

In a way, I have to side with the store owner here. It's his space, he can charge however much he wants for its use.

The issue isn't that he's collecting the $, the issue is that he's claiming the $5 charge was something that PFS mandated and not something he is charging for the store use.

***

The Real problem is he wants nothing from me as VC and in fact told me to my face that he already has a Venture Captain. He also tells them that he is the boss of PFS in the area. He tells the players that it is Paizo's requirement to charge for the game and he actively tries to undercut my lieutenants and I's work in the state. I am working on a way to work with him but as of yet he is still a potential problem.

I would never tell a store owner how to run his business and he also has every right to refuse to use my help but he doesn't have to right to try to ruin all other PFS games in the state.

Andoran ***

I think all you can do is, inform the player base. They have the right to choose how they play. I cant believe that some of them dont already know, with the internet these days. And, since "VC" isnt copied righted can anything be done there as well? Not saying I like it, just that cant do much about it.

Shadow Lodge ***

I know from local experince that the being the owner of a store, at least to some extent, bars you from the VC/VL position. When we were having a Venture Captain chosen, there were two serious canidates. One had a minority stake in the store that does the most PFS in the area. It was a definate factor in that canidate being NOT being chosen as VC.

If this guy continues to misrepresent himself, Paizo can work with distributors to refuse to supply product to his store. It would be a last resort. But it is the bullwhip that you have.

Qadira ***

heck, I'd pay $5 a game if it would get us better chairs! or even more than that.... or for that matter to replace the broken ones...

Grand Lodge ***** Venture-Captain, Illinois—Decatur aka TwilightKnight

As far as the charging for space, I'm surprised more stores don't do it, but I think it depends on the customers. If they regularly buy from the store, then there is no reason to risk losing them by charging for gaming space. If, however, they buy most/all of their product through discount vendors, such as Amazon, then the owner has to earn money somehow. In my experience, many gamers are cheap (not all, but many). They often do not see the benefit to supporting the FLGS. Saving a few bucks on their next shiny is more important. And then they are the same ones that complain when the store goes under and there is no local place to play. Just a couple of weeks ago , I witnessed two TCG players taking in the store and one was going to buy some cards. The other told him not to because they were cheaper at Walmart. All right in front of the store owner! I felt really bad for him. I would have thrown them out of the store, but he maintained his composure and reminded them that he does provide free gaming space, snacks, and the price of gas. Unfortunately, they still did not buy any cards.

Personally, I buy all my books from Paizo direct because of the subscription process. But when I visit a FLGS I always spend money there. Not just a soda/candy bar, but actual product. I cannot stress enough that everyone support their local game store/s.

As far as the game store in question (OP), if he is actively lying to the player base and/or sabotaging events and is non-responsive to attempts to compromise, then perhaps an active campaign of player notification is in order. I doubt these activities are restricted to PFS. There may be other players that he is deceiving. The community might be better off without that game store. The more extreme his actions and impact on the local players, then more aggressive you may have to be.

***

thanks to everyone that posted, especially all the stars out there. It's given me some insight, and I'll most likely post back to here with results of my interactions with the situation. As has been recommended and posted, I have interacted with my venture captain on the subject, and will pretty much be the intermediary regarding it. (hopefully)

I kinda wonder what the flame thread was that I started. I had no intentions of making such a big topic, just addressing the situation at hand. Oh well.

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

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Kerney wrote:
If this guy continues to misrepresent himself, Paizo can work with distributors to refuse to supply product to his store. It would be a last resort. But it is the bullwhip that you have.

Even if that were legal (not a lawyer, but I suspect it may not be), that's just not how we do business.

Shadow Lodge **

It's definitely wrong to say it's a Paizo thing, 'cause it's not.

That said, real estate is expensive around here (Bay Area, CA) and so all the stores charge something. Usually $3 and judges get a little kickback (usually $5) and free admission. One store charges $5, but they give it back as store credit coupons so if you buy from them it's technically free.

I think charging for the space is utterly fair, but it very much depends on your market and what the store can do/is doing with the space. Be nice to your FLGS, if they charge consider at least buying dice once in a while, if they don't, well then buy your stuff there. It's a good investment to keep you out of church basements...

GOOD LUCK!

****

Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

If my FLGS started to charge $5 to play PFS at their location, at the beginning of every month, I would hand one of the owners $20 bucks to cover the month. Why? Because my FLGS if friggin awesome. I support them, and they support the local community. I recently did a convention in another local city, and my FLGS provided me with minis and dice for it.

They didn't have to. I offered to buy the dice, and come up with something for minis for the players that I didn't trust because most of them it was the first time I had met them.

But they supported an event that will initially bring them $0 in revenue, but could in fact bring in money from players that don't live too far from the store.

If I lived in Battle Creek (I believe that's where the store that Daniel is talking about), I would have no problem paying the cover fee for the PFS, even if I didn't buy anything.

Because at the end of the day, not only are you taking up space that could be used for retail, but most FLGS support their local community.

Shadow Lodge *** Venture-Lieutenant, California—Silicon Valley aka JohnF

Euan wrote:

It's definitely wrong to say it's a Paizo thing, 'cause it's not.

That said, real estate is expensive around here (Bay Area, CA) and so all the stores charge something. Usually $3 and judges get a little kickback (usually $5) and free admission. One store charges $5, but they give it back as store credit coupons so if you buy from them it's technically free.

I think charging for the space is utterly fair, but it very much depends on your market and what the store can do/is doing with the space. Be nice to your FLGS, if they charge consider at least buying dice once in a while, if they don't, well then buy your stuff there. It's a good investment to keep you out of church basements...
GOOD LUCK!

Not quite all the stores - one of the places I play regularly has table fees (although most of it goes back to the GM as store credit, which gets spent on flip-mats, miniatures, etc.), but another store doesn't actually charge (even though their website says that they do). And I play in a regular weekly (non-PFS) Pathfinder game at another store which doesn't charge (and even gives a discount to players for game-related purchases). I'll make some purchases at the stores (over $100 in the last month), although I do have Paizo subscriptions in order to get the free PDFs.

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