paizo.com Recent Posts in I never really got why you can't trip flying creaturespaizo.com Recent Posts in I never really got why you can't trip flying creatures2012-06-03T01:09:22Z2012-06-03T01:09:22ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: I never really got why you can't trip flying creaturesHeHateMehttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2o7v0?I-never-really-got-why-you-cant-trip-flying#472016-09-11T06:58:43Z2016-09-11T06:58:43Z<p>It should certainly be possible to use a combat maneuver to hook a wing or something and knock/pull a flying creature to the ground. The only reason I can think of why that's not possible is that they used the word "trip". If the name of the maneuver was "knock prone" then it would probably be possible.</p>It should certainly be possible to use a combat maneuver to hook a wing or something and knock/pull a flying creature to the ground. The only reason I can think of why that's not possible is that they used the word "trip". If the name of the maneuver was "knock prone" then it would probably be possible.HeHateMe2016-09-11T06:58:43ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: I never really got why you can't trip flying creatures137benhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2o7v0?I-never-really-got-why-you-cant-trip-flying#462016-09-11T05:26:14Z2016-09-11T05:26:14Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Tequila Sunrise wrote:</div><blockquote><p> I know this is a necroed thread, but...</p>
<p>This is such a strange topic! I read the title, and immediately thought "Wait, they can't be?"</p>
<p>I'm sure that if birds had language like we do, they'd have a word for knocking a wing into something during flight, trying to take off before fully releasing a perch from a talon, and the bird equivalent of tripping over an uneven paving stone — "Ugh, I woke up on the wrong side of the nest this morning and <worded> over a bubble of cold air on my flight to work!" And surely losing one's balance or getting knocked off-kilter during flight is much more dangerous than doing so on the ground.</p>
<p>I guess fans can quibble over whether that <word> ought to be properly translated as 'trip,' and whether it's worth noting how bird-tripping works in the official rules. But PF <i>is</i> the only ttrpg with a separate skill for flying and only for flying, that I'm aware of. So surely, wondering why birds can't trip is a reasonable point of curiosity? </blockquote><p>Yea, it is weird. Weirder when you consider the fact that 3.5 <i>does</i> allow you to "trip" flying creatures, and it works pretty much how you just described, but Pathfinder explicitly changed it because apparently flying creatures are incapable of losing their balance?
<p>Since you're paying attention to this thread (maybe?), and my memory is failing me, how does 4e handle tripping of flying creatures?
<br />
(I remember how 4e handled measuring distance for flying creatures, and I liked it a heck of a lot more than 3e's method due to the simplicity in use. I don't remember how 4e handled tripping in flight, though.)</p>Tequila Sunrise wrote:I know this is a necroed thread, but...
This is such a strange topic! I read the title, and immediately thought "Wait, they can't be?"
I'm sure that if birds had language like we do, they'd have a word for knocking a wing into something during flight, trying to take off before fully releasing a perch from a talon, and the bird equivalent of tripping over an uneven paving stone -- "Ugh, I woke up on the wrong side of the nest this morning and over a bubble of cold air...137ben2016-09-11T05:26:14ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: I never really got why you can't trip flying creaturesavrhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2o7v0?I-never-really-got-why-you-cant-trip-flying#452016-09-18T18:54:10Z2016-09-10T02:04:03Z<p>Acrobatics and Fly really should be the same skill. And yeah, it's just short of spring here and yesterday I saw one bird chasing off another from their favoured tree, with use of what I'm fairly sure would be a trip maneuver performed in the air.</p>Acrobatics and Fly really should be the same skill. And yeah, it's just short of spring here and yesterday I saw one bird chasing off another from their favoured tree, with use of what I'm fairly sure would be a trip maneuver performed in the air.avr2016-09-10T02:04:03ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: I never really got why you can't trip flying creaturesTequila Sunrisehttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2o7v0?I-never-really-got-why-you-cant-trip-flying#442016-09-11T05:26:40Z2016-09-10T01:40:11Z<p>I know this is a necroed thread, but...</p>
<p>This is such a strange topic! I read the title, and immediately thought "Wait, they can't be?"</p>
<p>I'm sure that if birds had language like we do, they'd have a word for knocking a wing into something during flight, trying to take off before fully releasing a perch from a talon, and the bird equivalent of tripping over an uneven paving stone — "Ugh, I woke up on the wrong side of the nest this morning and <worded> over a bubble of cold air on my flight to work!" And surely losing one's balance or getting knocked off-kilter during flight is much more dangerous than doing so on the ground.</p>
<p>I guess fans can quibble over whether that <word> ought to be properly translated as 'trip,' and whether it's worth noting how bird-tripping works in the official rules. But PF <i>is</i> the only ttrpg with a separate skill for flying and only for flying, that I'm aware of. So surely, wondering why birds can't trip is a reasonable point of curiosity?</p>I know this is a necroed thread, but...
This is such a strange topic! I read the title, and immediately thought "Wait, they can't be?"
I'm sure that if birds had language like we do, they'd have a word for knocking a wing into something during flight, trying to take off before fully releasing a perch from a talon, and the bird equivalent of tripping over an uneven paving stone -- "Ugh, I woke up on the wrong side of the nest this morning and over a bubble of cold air on my flight to work!"...Tequila Sunrise2016-09-10T01:40:11ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: I never really got why you can't trip flying creaturesKahel Stormbender (alias of Daniel Myhre)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2o7v0?I-never-really-got-why-you-cant-trip-flying#432016-09-09T21:58:46Z2016-09-09T21:58:46Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Claxon wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Kahel Stormbender wrote:</div><blockquote> But wouldn't a Stunning Fist have been just as effective at shutting them down? Casters typically have carp for fort saves after all. </blockquote><p>Monk's typically have crap DCs for their abilities, it's often a crap shoot if it will ever actually work. Grapple is much more reliable.
<p>I went through a whole campaign of Rise of the Rune Lords with a friend playing an unchained monk who focused on strength and wisdom. They never once had a stunning fist work. Not once.</p>
<p>Also: I would have thought caster would have Koi for saves. </blockquote><p>Where I've used stunning fist to great effect. Granted, it doesn't always work. But managing to stun an enemy, at which point someone else in the group slapped manacles on the enemy was rather amusing. Especially since it was someone we were suppose to capture alive.Claxon wrote:Kahel Stormbender wrote: But wouldn't a Stunning Fist have been just as effective at shutting them down? Casters typically have carp for fort saves after all.
Monk's typically have crap DCs for their abilities, it's often a crap shoot if it will ever actually work. Grapple is much more reliable. I went through a whole campaign of Rise of the Rune Lords with a friend playing an unchained monk who focused on strength and wisdom. They never once had a stunning fist work. Not once.
...Kahel Stormbender (alias of Daniel Myhre)2016-09-09T21:58:46ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: I never really got why you can't trip flying creaturesClaxonhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2o7v0?I-never-really-got-why-you-cant-trip-flying#422016-09-09T21:34:44Z2016-09-09T21:34:44Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Kahel Stormbender wrote:</div><blockquote> But wouldn't a Stunning Fist have been just as effective at shutting them down? Casters typically have carp for fort saves after all. </blockquote><p>Monk's typically have crap DCs for their abilities, it's often a crap shoot if it will ever actually work. Grapple is much more reliable.
<p>I went through a whole campaign of Rise of the Rune Lords with a friend playing an unchained monk who focused on strength and wisdom. They never once had a stunning fist work. Not once.</p>
<p>Also: I would have thought caster would have Koi for saves.</p>Kahel Stormbender wrote:But wouldn't a Stunning Fist have been just as effective at shutting them down? Casters typically have carp for fort saves after all.
Monk's typically have crap DCs for their abilities, it's often a crap shoot if it will ever actually work. Grapple is much more reliable. I went through a whole campaign of Rise of the Rune Lords with a friend playing an unchained monk who focused on strength and wisdom. They never once had a stunning fist work. Not once.
Also: I would...Claxon2016-09-09T21:34:44ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: I never really got why you can't trip flying creaturesKahel Stormbender (alias of Daniel Myhre)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2o7v0?I-never-really-got-why-you-cant-trip-flying#412016-09-09T21:25:48Z2016-09-09T21:25:48Z<p>But wouldn't a Stunning Fist have been just as effective at shutting them down? Casters typically have carp for fort saves after all.</p>But wouldn't a Stunning Fist have been just as effective at shutting them down? Casters typically have carp for fort saves after all.Kahel Stormbender (alias of Daniel Myhre)2016-09-09T21:25:48ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: I never really got why you can't trip flying creaturesGinoAhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2o7v0?I-never-really-got-why-you-cant-trip-flying#402016-09-09T21:22:14Z2016-09-09T21:22:14Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Ranishe wrote:</div><blockquote>Grapple [...] are less devastating. So while I too would like maneuvers to be more usable, there should be some way to dampen their effects. </blockquote><p>Grapple is for casters. First round they're stuck making multiple concentration checks for anything. Second they're completely shut-down. Just did it last night with a Core Monk.Ranishe wrote:Grapple [...] are less devastating. So while I too would like maneuvers to be more usable, there should be some way to dampen their effects.
Grapple is for casters. First round they're stuck making multiple concentration checks for anything. Second they're completely shut-down. Just did it last night with a Core Monk.GinoA2016-09-09T21:22:14ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: I never really got why you can't trip flying creaturesClaxonhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2o7v0?I-never-really-got-why-you-cant-trip-flying#392016-09-09T20:39:39Z2016-09-09T20:39:39Z<p>There are plenty of ways to dampen the effects of maneuvers already baked into the game.</p>
<p>A large part of which is non-humanoid opponents rarely use weapons and once you hit higher levels many also fly (magically or non-magically). These two things negate the only two "good" combat maneuvers pretty regularly. Not to mention NPCs should often have backup weapons, in the same way PCs should often have backup weapons. Not only that, if you run NPCs the way I run most melee character you have a weapon cord attached to your melee weapon. Sure, you have to use an action to retrieve your weapon but that's just so that disarm isn't completely negated by a cheap mundane item. </p>
<p>If you're running a campaign which primarily feature only weapon using enemies and/or non-flying opponents you might consider gating the abilities behind feats, but otherwise they often make for poor character investments.</p>There are plenty of ways to dampen the effects of maneuvers already baked into the game.
A large part of which is non-humanoid opponents rarely use weapons and once you hit higher levels many also fly (magically or non-magically). These two things negate the only two "good" combat maneuvers pretty regularly. Not to mention NPCs should often have backup weapons, in the same way PCs should often have backup weapons. Not only that, if you run NPCs the way I run most melee character you have a...Claxon2016-09-09T20:39:39ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: I never really got why you can't trip flying creaturesRanishehttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2o7v0?I-never-really-got-why-you-cant-trip-flying#382016-09-09T20:22:45Z2016-09-09T20:22:45Z<p>One thing to keep in mind is the power maneuvers leverage, especially when they're reliable. If you can reliably disarm, no foe who relies on manufactured weapons can contest you. If you can trip reliably, your opponent heavily loses on action economy. Grapple, reposition & the like are less devastating. So while I too would like maneuvers to be more usable, there should be some way to dampen their effects.</p>One thing to keep in mind is the power maneuvers leverage, especially when they're reliable. If you can reliably disarm, no foe who relies on manufactured weapons can contest you. If you can trip reliably, your opponent heavily loses on action economy. Grapple, reposition & the like are less devastating. So while I too would like maneuvers to be more usable, there should be some way to dampen their effects.Ranishe2016-09-09T20:22:45ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: I never really got why you can't trip flying creaturesClaxonhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2o7v0?I-never-really-got-why-you-cant-trip-flying#372016-09-09T20:17:49Z2016-09-09T20:17:49Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Nicos wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Ravingdork wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Claxon wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Nicos wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Kolokotroni wrote:</div><blockquote> Really there ought to be a different combat maneuver that helps bring a flyer to the ground. Tripping a creature with legs is not the same thing as bringing down a flyer, winged or not. The problem ofc is we now have years of legacy of it being comparably difficult to bring a flyer down to earth (the gunslingers targeted shot at wings for instance) and it being comparably easy to say aloft (the non scaling fly check dc to stay in the air after being attacked for instance). </blockquote>The other problem is the associated pile of feat you would need to take in order to not suck at such maneuver. </blockquote>I so rarely see combat maneuvers done at my table, it would preferable to just remove the "Improved" versions of feats and just make maneuvers not provoke. Upgrade the "Greater" versions of the feats to give a +4 bonus to the maneuver and sometimes cause it to provoke from allies (depending on the normal greater version). Also remove stupid Combat Expertise as a requirement for them, damn feat tax. </blockquote>In my last game, I used maneuvers no less than four times: once when a bunch of trolls reached through an open doorway and dragged two PCs into the courtyard, and another time when a swarm demon reached through another open doorway and dragged a pair of PCs into a warehouse. </blockquote>I always use maneuvers as GM. They are just tons of fun, but the players rarely use them unless they specific build for them. </blockquote><p>They're great for GM characters, but suck for PC characters due to the opportunity cost (as mentioned above).
<div class="messageboard-quotee">Ravingdork wrote:</div><blockquote> In my last game, I used maneuvers no less than four times: once when a bunch of trolls reached through an open doorway and dragged two PCs into the courtyard, and another time when a swarm demon reached through another open doorway and dragged a pair of PCs into a warehouse. </blockquote><p>I'm not saying no one uses them (though I was saying they almost never see use in my games), it's just that due to feat investment cost and the AoO provoked without the feats PCs rarely use them. They're often bad options because of the required investment.
<p>I think we'd see them used a lot more if they just didn't provoke for being used.</p>Nicos wrote:Ravingdork wrote: Claxon wrote: Nicos wrote: Kolokotroni wrote: Really there ought to be a different combat maneuver that helps bring a flyer to the ground. Tripping a creature with legs is not the same thing as bringing down a flyer, winged or not. The problem ofc is we now have years of legacy of it being comparably difficult to bring a flyer down to earth (the gunslingers targeted shot at wings for instance) and it being comparably easy to say aloft (the non scaling fly check...Claxon2016-09-09T20:17:49ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: I never really got why you can't trip flying creaturesNicoshttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2o7v0?I-never-really-got-why-you-cant-trip-flying#362016-09-09T20:07:09Z2016-09-09T20:07:09Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Kolokotroni wrote:</div><blockquote><br />
<br />
<p>This is part of a fundamental flaw in the system. The opportunity cost of mundane options is WAAAY too high. It shouldn't take so much investment to do combat maneuvers.</p>
<p>A halfway descent start is to set combat expertise and power attack on fire and push them over a cliff and ditch the improved feats, but its only a start. A systemic change is really whats needed. </blockquote><p>"combat maneuver unchained" - that's an splatbook I would buy.Kolokotroni wrote:This is part of a fundamental flaw in the system. The opportunity cost of mundane options is WAAAY too high. It shouldn't take so much investment to do combat maneuvers.
A halfway descent start is to set combat expertise and power attack on fire and push them over a cliff and ditch the improved feats, but its only a start. A systemic change is really whats needed.
"combat maneuver unchained" - that's an splatbook I would buy.Nicos2016-09-09T20:07:09ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: I never really got why you can't trip flying creaturesKolokotronihttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2o7v0?I-never-really-got-why-you-cant-trip-flying#352016-09-09T20:01:05Z2016-09-09T20:01:05Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Claxon wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Nicos wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Kolokotroni wrote:</div><blockquote> Really there ought to be a different combat maneuver that helps bring a flyer to the ground. Tripping a creature with legs is not the same thing as bringing down a flyer, winged or not. The problem ofc is we now have years of legacy of it being comparably difficult to bring a flyer down to earth (the gunslingers targeted shot at wings for instance) and it being comparably easy to say aloft (the non scaling fly check dc to stay in the air after being attacked for instance). </blockquote>The other problem is the associated pile of feat you would need to take in order to not suck at such maneuver. </blockquote>I so rarely see combat maneuvers done at my table, it would preferable to just remove the "Improved" versions of feats and just make maneuvers not provoke. Upgrade the "Greater" versions of the feats to give a +4 bonus to the maneuver and sometimes cause it to provoke from allies (depending on the normal greater version). Also remove stupid Combat Expertise as a requirement for them, damn feat tax. </blockquote><p>This is part of a fundamental flaw in the system. The opportunity cost of mundane options is WAAAY too high. It shouldn't take so much investment to do combat maneuvers.
<p>A halfway descent start is to set combat expertise and power attack on fire and push them over a cliff and ditch the improved feats, but its only a start. A systemic change is really whats needed.</p>Claxon wrote:Nicos wrote: Kolokotroni wrote: Really there ought to be a different combat maneuver that helps bring a flyer to the ground. Tripping a creature with legs is not the same thing as bringing down a flyer, winged or not. The problem ofc is we now have years of legacy of it being comparably difficult to bring a flyer down to earth (the gunslingers targeted shot at wings for instance) and it being comparably easy to say aloft (the non scaling fly check dc to stay in the air after...Kolokotroni2016-09-09T20:01:05ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: I never really got why you can't trip flying creaturesTriOmegaZerohttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2o7v0?I-never-really-got-why-you-cant-trip-flying#342016-09-11T05:21:00Z2016-09-09T19:56:02Z<p>It's hilarious when you telekinetically disarm the gunslinger.</p>It's hilarious when you telekinetically disarm the gunslinger.TriOmegaZero2016-09-09T19:56:02ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: I never really got why you can't trip flying creaturesNicoshttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2o7v0?I-never-really-got-why-you-cant-trip-flying#332016-09-09T19:54:45Z2016-09-09T19:54:45Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Ravingdork wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Claxon wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Nicos wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Kolokotroni wrote:</div><blockquote> Really there ought to be a different combat maneuver that helps bring a flyer to the ground. Tripping a creature with legs is not the same thing as bringing down a flyer, winged or not. The problem ofc is we now have years of legacy of it being comparably difficult to bring a flyer down to earth (the gunslingers targeted shot at wings for instance) and it being comparably easy to say aloft (the non scaling fly check dc to stay in the air after being attacked for instance). </blockquote>The other problem is the associated pile of feat you would need to take in order to not suck at such maneuver. </blockquote>I so rarely see combat maneuvers done at my table, it would preferable to just remove the "Improved" versions of feats and just make maneuvers not provoke. Upgrade the "Greater" versions of the feats to give a +4 bonus to the maneuver and sometimes cause it to provoke from allies (depending on the normal greater version). Also remove stupid Combat Expertise as a requirement for them, damn feat tax. </blockquote>In my last game, I used maneuvers no less than four times: once when a bunch of trolls reached through an open doorway and dragged two PCs into the courtyard, and another time when a swarm demon reached through another open doorway and dragged a pair of PCs into a warehouse. </blockquote><p>I always use maneuvers as GM. They are just tons of fun, but the players rarely use them unless they specific build for them.Ravingdork wrote:Claxon wrote: Nicos wrote: Kolokotroni wrote: Really there ought to be a different combat maneuver that helps bring a flyer to the ground. Tripping a creature with legs is not the same thing as bringing down a flyer, winged or not. The problem ofc is we now have years of legacy of it being comparably difficult to bring a flyer down to earth (the gunslingers targeted shot at wings for instance) and it being comparably easy to say aloft (the non scaling fly check dc to stay in...Nicos2016-09-09T19:54:45ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: I never really got why you can't trip flying creaturesRavingdorkhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2o7v0?I-never-really-got-why-you-cant-trip-flying#322016-09-09T19:49:51Z2016-09-09T19:49:51Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Claxon wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Nicos wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Kolokotroni wrote:</div><blockquote> Really there ought to be a different combat maneuver that helps bring a flyer to the ground. Tripping a creature with legs is not the same thing as bringing down a flyer, winged or not. The problem ofc is we now have years of legacy of it being comparably difficult to bring a flyer down to earth (the gunslingers targeted shot at wings for instance) and it being comparably easy to say aloft (the non scaling fly check dc to stay in the air after being attacked for instance). </blockquote>The other problem is the associated pile of feat you would need to take in order to not suck at such maneuver. </blockquote>I so rarely see combat maneuvers done at my table, it would preferable to just remove the "Improved" versions of feats and just make maneuvers not provoke. Upgrade the "Greater" versions of the feats to give a +4 bonus to the maneuver and sometimes cause it to provoke from allies (depending on the normal greater version). Also remove stupid Combat Expertise as a requirement for them, damn feat tax. </blockquote><p>In my last game, I used maneuvers no less than four times: once when a bunch of trolls reached through an open doorway and dragged two PCs into the courtyard, and another time when a swarm demon reached through another open doorway and dragged a pair of PCs into a warehouse.Claxon wrote:Nicos wrote: Kolokotroni wrote: Really there ought to be a different combat maneuver that helps bring a flyer to the ground. Tripping a creature with legs is not the same thing as bringing down a flyer, winged or not. The problem ofc is we now have years of legacy of it being comparably difficult to bring a flyer down to earth (the gunslingers targeted shot at wings for instance) and it being comparably easy to say aloft (the non scaling fly check dc to stay in the air after...Ravingdork2016-09-09T19:49:51ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: I never really got why you can't trip flying creaturesClaxonhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2o7v0?I-never-really-got-why-you-cant-trip-flying#312016-09-09T19:45:38Z2016-09-09T19:45:38Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Nicos wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Kolokotroni wrote:</div><blockquote> Really there ought to be a different combat maneuver that helps bring a flyer to the ground. Tripping a creature with legs is not the same thing as bringing down a flyer, winged or not. The problem ofc is we now have years of legacy of it being comparably difficult to bring a flyer down to earth (the gunslingers targeted shot at wings for instance) and it being comparably easy to say aloft (the non scaling fly check dc to stay in the air after being attacked for instance). </blockquote>The other problem is the associated pile of feat you would need to take in order to not suck at such maneuver. </blockquote><p>I so rarely see combat maneuvers done at my table, it would preferable to just remove the "Improved" versions of feats and just make maneuvers not provoke. Upgrade the "Greater" versions of the feats to give a +4 bonus to the maneuver and sometimes cause it to provoke from allies (depending on the normal greater version). Also remove stupid Combat Expertise as a requirement for them, damn feat tax.Nicos wrote:Kolokotroni wrote: Really there ought to be a different combat maneuver that helps bring a flyer to the ground. Tripping a creature with legs is not the same thing as bringing down a flyer, winged or not. The problem ofc is we now have years of legacy of it being comparably difficult to bring a flyer down to earth (the gunslingers targeted shot at wings for instance) and it being comparably easy to say aloft (the non scaling fly check dc to stay in the air after being attacked for...Claxon2016-09-09T19:45:38ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: I never really got why you can't trip flying creaturesRavingdorkhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2o7v0?I-never-really-got-why-you-cant-trip-flying#302016-09-09T19:27:17Z2016-09-09T19:27:17Z<p>In the X-men animated television shows, we see Storm (and other supernatural fliers) getting knocked out of the air numerous times.</p>In the X-men animated television shows, we see Storm (and other supernatural fliers) getting knocked out of the air numerous times.Ravingdork2016-09-09T19:27:17ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: I never really got why you can't trip flying creaturesNicoshttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2o7v0?I-never-really-got-why-you-cant-trip-flying#292016-09-09T19:10:37Z2016-09-09T19:10:37Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Kolokotroni wrote:</div><blockquote> Really there ought to be a different combat maneuver that helps bring a flyer to the ground. Tripping a creature with legs is not the same thing as bringing down a flyer, winged or not. The problem ofc is we now have years of legacy of it being comparably difficult to bring a flyer down to earth (the gunslingers targeted shot at wings for instance) and it being comparably easy to say aloft (the non scaling fly check dc to stay in the air after being attacked for instance). </blockquote><p>The other problem is the associated pile of feat you would need to take in order to not suck at such maneuver.Kolokotroni wrote:Really there ought to be a different combat maneuver that helps bring a flyer to the ground. Tripping a creature with legs is not the same thing as bringing down a flyer, winged or not. The problem ofc is we now have years of legacy of it being comparably difficult to bring a flyer down to earth (the gunslingers targeted shot at wings for instance) and it being comparably easy to say aloft (the non scaling fly check dc to stay in the air after being attacked for instance).
...Nicos2016-09-09T19:10:37ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: I never really got why you can't trip flying creaturesClaxonhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2o7v0?I-never-really-got-why-you-cant-trip-flying#282016-09-09T19:07:32Z2016-09-09T19:07:32Z<p>I mean, you can always use the reposition maneuver on them assuming you can reach them.</p>I mean, you can always use the reposition maneuver on them assuming you can reach them.Claxon2016-09-09T19:07:32ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: I never really got why you can't trip flying creaturesKolokotronihttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2o7v0?I-never-really-got-why-you-cant-trip-flying#272016-09-09T14:23:36Z2016-09-09T14:23:36Z<p>Really there ought to be a different combat maneuver that helps bring a flyer to the ground. Tripping a creature with legs is not the same thing as bringing down a flyer, winged or not. The problem ofc is we now have years of legacy of it being comparably difficult to bring a flyer down to earth (the gunslingers targeted shot at wings for instance) and it being comparably easy to say aloft (the non scaling fly check dc to stay in the air after being attacked for instance).</p>Really there ought to be a different combat maneuver that helps bring a flyer to the ground. Tripping a creature with legs is not the same thing as bringing down a flyer, winged or not. The problem ofc is we now have years of legacy of it being comparably difficult to bring a flyer down to earth (the gunslingers targeted shot at wings for instance) and it being comparably easy to say aloft (the non scaling fly check dc to stay in the air after being attacked for instance).Kolokotroni2016-09-09T14:23:36ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: I never really got why you can't trip flying creaturesBill Dunnhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2o7v0?I-never-really-got-why-you-cant-trip-flying#262016-09-08T22:33:04Z2016-09-08T22:33:04Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Kahel Stormbender wrote:</div><blockquote><br />
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On the other hand, I can see ways you could trip a flier. Especially one who uses wings to fly.
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</blockquote><p>Me too, but as RedDog posted a few years ago before this thread was necro'd, that looks a bit more like a grapple than a trip. In fact, that's how I ran it when a monk character managed to get on a swooping wyvern and succeeded at a grapple check to foul its wings.Kahel Stormbender wrote:On the other hand, I can see ways you could trip a flier. Especially one who uses wings to fly.
Me too, but as RedDog posted a few years ago before this thread was necro'd, that looks a bit more like a grapple than a trip. In fact, that's how I ran it when a monk character managed to get on a swooping wyvern and succeeded at a grapple check to foul its wings.Bill Dunn2016-09-08T22:33:04ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: I never really got why you can't trip flying creaturesKahel Stormbender (alias of Daniel Myhre)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2o7v0?I-never-really-got-why-you-cant-trip-flying#252016-09-08T22:20:10Z2016-09-08T22:20:10Z<p>On the one hand, the idea of tripping someone who's flying is kind of silly. I mean, really? You're going to try to trip Storm of the x-men when she's hovering in the air? And you expect it to do something useful?</p>
<p>On the other hand, I can see ways you could trip a flier. Especially one who uses wings to fly.</p>
<p>On the third hand, what if said flier is 15 or 20 feet in the air? How do you plan to trip them?</p>On the one hand, the idea of tripping someone who's flying is kind of silly. I mean, really? You're going to try to trip Storm of the x-men when she's hovering in the air? And you expect it to do something useful?
On the other hand, I can see ways you could trip a flier. Especially one who uses wings to fly.
On the third hand, what if said flier is 15 or 20 feet in the air? How do you plan to trip them?Kahel Stormbender (alias of Daniel Myhre)2016-09-08T22:20:10ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: I never really got why you can't trip flying creatures_Ozy_https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2o7v0?I-never-really-got-why-you-cant-trip-flying#242016-09-09T15:28:23Z2016-09-08T20:29:53Z<p>Snakes can be flipped over on their back, needing an action to 're-orient'. Whether this qualifies as 'prone' or not is certainly debatable.</p>
<p>That said, all of the creatures I listed very specifically are immune to 'tripping' not immune to the 'prone' condition. Why didn't Paizo simply just make them immune to the prone condition if that's what they intended?</p>Snakes can be flipped over on their back, needing an action to 're-orient'. Whether this qualifies as 'prone' or not is certainly debatable.
That said, all of the creatures I listed very specifically are immune to 'tripping' not immune to the 'prone' condition. Why didn't Paizo simply just make them immune to the prone condition if that's what they intended?_Ozy_2016-09-08T20:29:53ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder First Edition: General Discussion: I never really got why you can't trip flying creaturesClaxonhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2o7v0?I-never-really-got-why-you-cant-trip-flying#232016-09-08T15:37:53Z2016-09-08T15:37:53Z<p>As a GM I've always ruled that things that cause prone against tripping immune or flying creatures simply don't work. On the flying creatures I might have them make the fly check to stay flying as though they crashed into something. </p>
<p>But like a snake, a snake is just a snake. There is no "prone" for a snake. Nothing happens. </p>
<p>As to original purpose of the thread, they did finally make a feat that allows you to perform a ranged trip attack against a flying creature called Ace Trip. It's absolutely abysmal, but it exists.</p>As a GM I've always ruled that things that cause prone against tripping immune or flying creatures simply don't work. On the flying creatures I might have them make the fly check to stay flying as though they crashed into something.
But like a snake, a snake is just a snake. There is no "prone" for a snake. Nothing happens.
As to original purpose of the thread, they did finally make a feat that allows you to perform a ranged trip attack against a flying creature called Ace Trip. It's...Claxon2016-09-08T15:37:53Z