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(Sorcerer modification) Possibly balanced, or unfairly weaking to Sorcerers?


Suggestions/House Rules/Homebrew


I've converted over to gradient spellcasting. I've already come up with ways to keep this under control and keep martial characters relavent. My one issue is that it makes Sorcerers and Wizards cast very similarly to each other. I want them to feel very different in the way they cast spells. The suggestion of merging the two classes has been made, but I like the Sorcerer's flavor and the way Pathfinder added a lot of things to it. So, I'm considering some changes.

First off, my gradient Sorcerer uses the spell progression listed in in the Core Rulebook as far as number of spells goes. It has only Instinctive and Practiced experience levels, not Experimental. It starts out with 0 level spells as Instinctive, and 1st level becomes instinctive at 11th level, 2nd at 13th, 3rd at 15th, and 4th at 17th (No class may have anything higher than 4th level spells as Instinctive. Wizards gain Instinctive spell levels at the same levels as Sorcerers do).

Here's where things change. Sorcerers may never learn any spell higher than 6th level. Period. They posses spell slots for 7 to 9 level spells, but they have to use metamagic to use them. In exchange for this serious blow, they don't increase casting time when applying metamagic, and they don't have to purchase a metamagic feat to use it. At first level, they can use any metamagic feat that does not have another metamagic feat as a prerequisite, so long as they meet any other prerequisites of the metamagic feat. At 3rd level, they may use a metamagic feat that has another metamagic feat as a prerequisite, so long as they are able to use the requisite feat or feats.

Sorcerers do not actually HAVE these metamagic feats, they are just allowed to use them as if they did. This ability only applies to spells gained for Sorcerer levels, so you cannot just dip a level of Sorcerer for the metamagic and then switch to another class. A Sorcerer of at least third level may use it's metamagic access to qualify for pretige classes that require metamagic feats.

I allow a lot of supplemental and third party materiel in my games, so there are a LOT of metamagic feats available, so being able to use most of them whenever you want gives you a lot of versatility. Under this idea, it seems to me that, while Wizards would retain their customary versatility in sheer amount of spells available, Sorcerers would have their own form of versatility. While they would only have a few spells, they would have a massive amount of ways to modify those spells, making them flexible in their own way. Sure, you only know a few spells. You can modify them on the fly in scores of different ways, however. I don't think that's something to scoff at.

Does this sound as good an idea to you guys as it does to me?


That sounds like an incredibly terrible idea. Sorcerers have a hard enough time as it is. Why would you do that?


Umbral Reaver wrote:
That sounds like an incredibly terrible idea. Sorcerers have a hard enough time as it is. Why would you do that?

The idea was that free access to almost every metamagic feat allowed in my games (I haven't counted, but probably between 50 and 100), and the fact that they can apply these feats at will without increasing casting time would give them a lot of versatility, even if they can't learn higher level spells. Sure, they really lag in how many spells they know, but they have a ton of possible modifications, especially if I decide to implement some Sorcerer-only costless metamagic.

Basically, I want Sorcerers to feel more instinctive, natural, and artistic than Wizards, and the idea that they only know a little, but stretch it out extremely far, is supposed to fit that. If what I want to do works, a Wizard may know a massive number of spells, but a Sorcerer knows how to take one spell and use it to solve a massive number of problems.

Qadira

Wow feat free and spontaneous same casting time meta magic sounds amazing. They can build spells at will. Sounds super fun.

I don't have high lvl experience to advise, but I want this option.


I doubt I would ever trade in 7th to 9th level spell access for metamagics. If you made them a 3/4 BAB hybrid class with metamagic mastery in place of the bard's performance and shenanigans, it might work.


Umbral Reaver wrote:
I doubt I would ever trade in 7th to 9th level spell access for metamagics. If you made them a 3/4 BAB hybrid class with metamagic mastery in place of the bard's performance and shenanigans, it might work.

What if I sweetened the deal? Say, make some metamagic feats free to apply to a spell (as in, no level increase), reduce some level increases at higher levels, and applied high ability score bonuses to spells known as well as spells per day?


I'm also considering a "meta pool", which is basically a pool of extra spell levels per day usable only with metamagic. Each point spent from thiss pool negates one level of spell level increase from metamagic, an it replenishes each day.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Ive never played with gradient spellcasting, but I'd have to think no one will ever play a sorcerer again in one of your games with this rule. Just my early observation with no real knowledge of the system, though.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber

Because obviously Sorcerers and Wizards are suffering compared to the other classes, and need a major power boost. Given the choices above, I'd never play a sorcerer again, even with the metamagic inducement you'd try to bribe me with. Because there's simply nothing that would compare to unlimited access to a major part of my spellbook.


LazarX wrote:
Because obviously Sorcerers and Wizards are suffering compared to the other classes, and need a major power boost.

As I said, I've already handled how not to make this elevate Sorcs/Wizards against other classes. Namely, spellcasting makes one vulnerable (as in, reduced armor class), concentration checks due to damage are harder, martials have some new toys to play with (the Fighter came off good), and the feat system is more generous to martials.

Quote:
Given the choices above, I'd never play a sorcerer again, even with the metamagic inducement you'd try to bribe me with. Because there's simply nothing that would compare to unlimited access to a major part of my spellbook.

What if I gave back the 7 to 9 level casting? As for access to a major part of your spellbook, access to a very large number of metamagic feats, including some that don't increase spell level, isn't something minor.


Wow, I actually love this idea. Of course, my group's games have never gotten past about 10th level, so the spell limit wouldn't be an issue for us. If you're just looking at the fabled "sweet spot" (what, 8th-12th level or something?), how does this stack up to regular Pathfinder/DnD? The Sorcerer's any-and-all metamagic feat ability seems like it could be pretty darn powerful, especially if you let them apply metamagic feats without increasing the effective spell level. Does the 8th- to 10th-level Wizard have any significant advantages over the Sorcerer?


wynterknight wrote:
Wow, I actually love this idea. Of course, my group's games have never gotten past about 10th level, so the spell limit wouldn't be an issue for us. If you're just looking at the fabled "sweet spot" (what, 8th-12th level or something?), how does this stack up to regular Pathfinder/DnD? The Sorcerer's any-and-all metamagic feat ability seems like it could be pretty darn powerful, especially if you let them apply metamagic feats without increasing the effective spell level. Does the 8th- to 10th-level Wizard have any significant advantages over the Sorcerer?

Wizards have the advantage of spell availability, as normal. Though there are metamagic feats a Sorcerer can apply without increasing effective spell level, these are things like changing damage type and area of effect shape. They would have a point pool of free spell levels, but at this level it would be maybe 16 to 20 per day, with a limit of up to two applied to one spell.

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