Paizo Top Nav Branding
  • Hello, Guest! |
  • Sign In |
  • My Account |
  • Shopping Cart |
  • Help/FAQ
About Paizo Messageboards News Paizo Blog Help/FAQ
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game
Pathfinder Society

Pathfinder Beginner Box

Pathfinder Adventure Card Game

Pathfinder Comics

Pathfinder Legends

PaizoCon 2014!

For a ninja, what action is it to use forgotten trick to emulate a combat feat?


Rules Questions

1 to 50 of 66 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | next > last >>

So forgotten trick allows you to emulate any ninja trick for 2 ki points + the cost of the activation of said trick. The action for activation is supposedly the amount of time it takes to activate the trick normally.

So, if I use forgotten trick to emulate combat trick, what is the activating action?

prototype00

Grand Lodge

Not an action. It's part of another action (either the attack or other action benefited by the feat, or the action required to use the special option granted by the feat).


Starglim wrote:
Not an action. It's part of another action (either the attack or other action benefited by the feat, or the action required to use the special option granted by the feat).

So I could even use it on an enemy's turn if say, I had crane style and wanted to emulate crane wing? I'd use it when the enemy attacks me to nullify the attack?

That is pretty rad.

prototype00


Personally I'd rule it as a free action on your own turn only, though I am of mind that I just should ban that particular trick.


Remco Sommeling wrote:
Personally I'd rule it as a free action on your own turn only, though I am of mind that I just should ban that particular trick.

You don't like the ninja being able to pull random training given to him by his ancient masters out of the bag at inopportune moments?

Follow on question, once I've emulated a specific combat feat, could I end the duration early ( I think it lasts for a round/ninja level) to emulate another combat feat (say start off emulating dodge, then switch to belier's bite one round later)?

prototype00


By RAW? No. Though I don't suspect most GMs will have a problem with it, as you are spending a lot of Ki to do that.


I do not like badly written/balanced options.

It seems the assumption is that you can activate it at the time you want to use a trick as part of an action, for featherfall it would be immediate for instance, but in non-specified cases I'd say on your own turn.

I do not see by RAW saying that you can not use it again while already using it, presumably you can gain the use of one feat and decide to featherfall simultaneously just fine, there is no language barring that in my opinion.


Remco Sommeling wrote:


I do not see by RAW saying that you can not use it again while already using it, presumably you can gain the use of one feat and decide to featherfall simultaneously just fine, there is no language barring that in my opinion.

But could you use it to gain one feat, and then next round use it again to gain the same ninja trick (combat trick) but gain a different combat feat?

prototype00


prototype00 wrote:
Remco Sommeling wrote:


I do not see by RAW saying that you can not use it again while already using it, presumably you can gain the use of one feat and decide to featherfall simultaneously just fine, there is no language barring that in my opinion.

But could you use it to gain one feat, and then next round use it again to gain the same ninja trick (combat trick) but gain a different combat feat?

prototype00

Well.. it says you can pick a ninja trick you already know, so I assume that should not work, while you could make a RAW argument against it, since you only gain the use of the feat, I am pretty sure it should not work.

Come to think of it, it would kinda suck to have picked combat trick since you would not be able to pick an on-the-fly feat to use limiting forgotten trick significantly.

Shadow Lodge

Swift action

By spending 1 point from her ki pool, a ninja can make one additional attack at her highest attack bonus, but she can do so only when making a full attack. In addition, she can spend 1 point to increase her speed by 20 feet for 1 round. Finally, a ninja can spend 1 point from her ki pool to give herself a +4 insight bonus on Stealth skill checks for 1 round. Each of these powers is activated as a swift action. A ninja can gain additional powers that consume points from her ki pool by selecting certain ninja tricks.


Remco Sommeling wrote:


Come to think of it, it would kinda suck to have picked combat trick since you would not be able to pick an on-the-fly feat to use limiting forgotten trick significantly.

Aha! The penny drops. Unless my build is hugely feat starved, I prefer not to pick combat trick, just so I can basically have any combat feat I want on the fly.

It meshes well with builds where you can refill your ki rather quickly, like multiclassed with a drunken master monk with fast drinker (1 or 2 ki/round restored as a swift action).

prototype00


BigNorseWolf wrote:

Swift action

By spending 1 point from her ki pool, a ninja can make one additional attack at her highest attack bonus, but she can do so only when making a full attack. In addition, she can spend 1 point to increase her speed by 20 feet for 1 round. Finally, a ninja can spend 1 point from her ki pool to give herself a +4 insight bonus on Stealth skill checks for 1 round. Each of these powers is activated as a swift action. A ninja can gain additional powers that consume points from her ki pool by selecting certain ninja tricks.

Errrm, it doesn't say anywhere that tricks are activated as a swift action in that text. It would also kind of screw the featherfall trick.

prototype00


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Yeah, but then you are drunk.


Cheapy wrote:
Yeah, but then you are drunk.

Well, according to da rulz, you can have 1+double your con mod in drinks before you become sickened. I wonder if drunken masters are susceptible to this as well as it would mess with their entire schtick, another rules/faq question to ask I suppose.

Maybe when alcohol goes into drunken ki it doesn't count?

prototype00


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

No... It definitely still counts. That's the whole point: you fight while drunk.


Or you could limit yourself to the 1+double con mod drinks, and have a quick rest between combats to sober yourself up, I suppose. If you have fast drinker, then it's good for 9 drinks, no penalties.

I have my doubts that it's meant to be a permanent debilitating negative.

prototype00


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

You'll sober up eventually, although you may be an alcoholic :-D comes with the territory of drinking alcohol all the time.


Just curious, how long would it take to sober up after a combat? Say the drunken master had not gone over the limit or anything?

prototyp00


The act of using the Ninja's Ki Pool ability to spend ki points, is stated as a swift action in the class features description. Ninja tricks are considered powers under the Ki Pool feature description.

Ki Pool wrote:
Each of these powers is activated as a swift action. A ninja can gain additional powers that consume points from her ki pool by selecting certain ninja tricks.

Other ninja tricks specify the action required when spending ki points to activate it, when it differs from a swift action; Featherfall Trick being one example.

In the case of drunkenness and sobering up:

Drunkenness wrote:
In general, a character can consume a number of alcoholic beverages equal to 1 plus double his Constitution modifier before being sickened for 1 hour equal to the number of drinks above this maximum.

If your Con Mod. is +3, you can have 7 drinks before being sickened. On the 8th drink, you are sickened for 1 hour. There is no stated time span that these drinks diminish in, however. Typically, Pathfinder mechanics work on a "per day" basis, so I'd assume after resting for 8 hours (signifying a day change), you can consume another 7 drinks before becoming sickened. If you take the real-life route, most bodies can metabolize about 1 "beer" per hour. But that is a lot of bookkeeping.


Is alcohol a poison? If so, diamond body takes care of it handily.

prototype00


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Alcohol functions as poison in Pathfinder.


blackbloodtroll wrote:
Alcohol functions as poison in Pathfinder.

Ah well, it's moot as Diamond body is one of the abilities that Drunken Master replaces.

prototype00

Edit: I still can't believe that theres an archetype that expects you to go through life with a persistent -2 penalty just for using your abilities to the fullest. It's not even giving you extra attacks or anything.


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

It's one of the reasons Duergar are so mean, they cannot get drunk.


The drunken master does not require the monk to be actually drunk to use it's abilities.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Yep! You don't need to be drunk to use the abilities, but if you use Drunken Ki enough, you'll get drunk like the normal rules.

Also remember that you still need to retrieve the alcohol, which would be a move action. Maybe you can get one of those everfull flagon's, and use that. Fast Drinker effectively allows you to retrieve and drink as a move + swift action, and lets you punch people still :D


Remco Sommeling wrote:
The drunken master does not require the monk to be actually drunk to use it's abilities.

Main problem, you become drunk very rapidly when you use the Drunken Master's abilities, more than 5 drinks on a con 14 drunken master and its -2 to basically everything for the rest of the dungeon crawl.

I wonder if people would faq it if I posted this as a question in the advice/rules forum.

prototype00


Cheapy wrote:

Yep! You don't need to be drunk to use the abilities, but if you use Drunken Ki enough, you'll get drunk like the normal rules.

Also remember that you still need to retrieve the alcohol, which would be a move action. Maybe you can get one of those everfull flagon's, and use that. Fast Drinker effectively allows you to retrieve and drink as a move + swift action, and lets you punch people still :D

Or just hold a flask of endless sake (legal for PFS!) in your offhand.

prototype00


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

The Venom-Drenched trait allows you to be immune to one poison. You choose an alcoholic beverage, and there you go.


I'm not sure how I feel about having to worship Norgorbor just to not get drunk. -_- Good catch though.

prototype00


Well there is deep drinker, fast drinker and drunken brawler feats to make the PrC worthwhile.


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

You do not need to continue to worship him. Look into the details of religion traits.


blackbloodtroll wrote:
You do not need to continue to worship him. Look into the details of religion traits.

The details, are in truth, even more depressing. If you stop worshipping said deity, then the religious trait goes away and is replaced at the next level with a basic faith trait.

prototype00


Remco Sommeling wrote:
Well there is deep drinker, fast drinker and drunken brawler feats to make the PrC worthwhile.

Which is a bit of an investment for something you can only do 5 times/day and grants minimal return (1 or 2 ki points and possibly some temp hp).

prototype00


Starglim wrote:
Not an action. It's part of another action (either the attack or other action benefited by the feat, or the action required to use the special option granted by the feat).

(Reposted from the other thread that relates to this topic)

The Actions in Combat table suggests otherwise.

Furthermore:

The combat section of the CRB wrote:
Using an extraordinary ability is usually not an action because most extraordinary abilities automatically happen in a reactive fashion. Those extraordinary abilities that are actions are usually standard actions that cannot be disrupted, do not require concentration, and do not provoke attacks of opportunity.

Paying 2 ki to temporarily learn a new ninja trick would qualify as an action, not something that "automatically happens in a reactive fashion".


Sellsword2587 wrote:

The act of using the Ninja's Ki Pool ability to spend ki points, is stated as a swift action in the class features description. Ninja tricks are considered powers under the Ki Pool feature description.

Ki Pool wrote:
Each of these powers is activated as a swift action. A ninja can gain additional powers that consume points from her ki pool by selecting certain ninja tricks.
Other ninja tricks specify the action required when spending ki points to activate it, when it differs from a swift action; Featherfall Trick being one example.

You're not parsing that paragraph correctly. "These powers" refers to the previously specified list of powers. Any additional powers follow their own rules and have nothing to do with the first three powers, other than sharing the ki pool.


I'm going to put a question up in the rules forum to check two things (also to gather faq clicks from people who care about it):

1.) If the Drunken Master is supposed to become inebreiated as a consequence of his abilities and suffer a penalty for the remainder of his adventuring day (more or less based on the number of drinks consumed)

2.) The inebriation rules lists the number of drinks you can have before you are inebriated as 1+2xcon, when does this number reset.

If you guys are interested, pop by.

prototype00


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

prototype, other than not wanting it to be the case, what evidence is there that they don't get drunk?


Not anything in particular. Was actually more interested in the inebriation rules and the length of time between drinks. Though it does sound like an extremely raw deal for the drunken master. It's more of a "fall on your face and throw up" master.

prototype00

Edit: Though I suppose it's a debateably reasonable tradeoff for basically unlimited ki. And the sickened condition only applies once.


Bardic Dave wrote:
Starglim wrote:
Not an action. It's part of another action (either the attack or other action benefited by the feat, or the action required to use the special option granted by the feat).

(Reposted from the other thread that relates to this topic)

The Actions in Combat table suggests otherwise.

Furthermore:

The combat section of the CRB wrote:
Using an extraordinary ability is usually not an action because most extraordinary abilities automatically happen in a reactive fashion. Those extraordinary abilities that are actions are usually standard actions that cannot be disrupted, do not require concentration, and do not provoke attacks of opportunity.
Paying 2 ki to temporarily learn a new ninja trick would qualify as an action, not something that "automatically happens in a reactive fashion".

Am I the only one who thinks it's clear as day that using forgotten trick is a standard action? See my earlier post for details.


Bardic Dave wrote:
Bardic Dave wrote:
Starglim wrote:
Not an action. It's part of another action (either the attack or other action benefited by the feat, or the action required to use the special option granted by the feat).

(Reposted from the other thread that relates to this topic)

The Actions in Combat table suggests otherwise.

Furthermore:

The combat section of the CRB wrote:
Using an extraordinary ability is usually not an action because most extraordinary abilities automatically happen in a reactive fashion. Those extraordinary abilities that are actions are usually standard actions that cannot be disrupted, do not require concentration, and do not provoke attacks of opportunity.
Paying 2 ki to temporarily learn a new ninja trick would qualify as an action, not something that "automatically happens in a reactive fashion".
Am I the only one who thinks it's clear as day that using forgotten trick is a standard action? See my earlier post for details.

The main problem here is that use of the forgotten trick Ninja trick is not explicitly spelled out as being an action, and thus would not fall automatically under the Extraordinary abilities (Standard action) umbrella.

In fact, in that it doesn't actually do anything and the emulated trick is actually what costs action to use (i.e. it's not standard action to activate forgotten trick, then swift action to vanish), it falls more under the Extraordinary ability (Not an action) category.

So the better question to ask is "What kind of action is it to activate Combat Trick" the answer to which is No action at all. Which is why I (granted biasedly) like the it's used as part of the action provided by the combat feat answer.

prototype00


prototype00 wrote:
Bardic Dave wrote:
Bardic Dave wrote:
Starglim wrote:
Not an action. It's part of another action (either the attack or other action benefited by the feat, or the action required to use the special option granted by the feat).

(Reposted from the other thread that relates to this topic)

The Actions in Combat table suggests otherwise.

Furthermore:

The combat section of the CRB wrote:
Using an extraordinary ability is usually not an action because most extraordinary abilities automatically happen in a reactive fashion. Those extraordinary abilities that are actions are usually standard actions that cannot be disrupted, do not require concentration, and do not provoke attacks of opportunity.
Paying 2 ki to temporarily learn a new ninja trick would qualify as an action, not something that "automatically happens in a reactive fashion".
Am I the only one who thinks it's clear as day that using forgotten trick is a standard action? See my earlier post for details.

The main problem here is that use of the forgotten trick Ninja trick is not explicitly spelled out as being an action, and thus would not fall automatically under the Extraordinary abilities (Standard action) umbrella.

In fact, in that it doesn't actually do anything and the emulated trick is actually what costs action to use (i.e. it's not standard action to activate forgotten trick, then swift action to vanish), it falls more under the Extraordinary ability (Not an action) category.

So the better question to ask is "What kind of action is it to activate Combat Trick" the answer to which is No action at all. Which is why I (granted biasedly) like the it's used as part of the action provided by the combat feat answer.

prototype00

Using forgotten trick grants you the ability to use the emulated trick for the next several rounds. This is an on/off toggle, much like activating bardic performance, or going into a rage. In both of those cases, the action type required is specified. In this case, it isn't. The general rule is that when an action type isn't specified, it's a standard action. There is no need to specifically call out the thing done as an "action". If it's something that needs to be activated (ie: it doesn't "just happen" in reaction to something else) then it's an action.

According to the table I linked above:

Use an Extraordinary Ability = standard action.

In what way is using forgotten trick not using an extraordinary ability? What makes this so different from other on/off toggle type abilities that it should constitute a non-action, other than wishful thinking?


For a Bard, you're not very convincing that you have the rules on your side either, Dave. You seem to be the only one beating the "it must be a standard action!!" drum.

That you have such confidence in your interpretation of the rules is inspiring of course, but did the possibility occur to you that it might indeed, be a grey area, one of many?

prototype00


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Nien, Nien, Nien!

Really, I am unsure myself.


prototype00 wrote:

For a Bard, you're not very convincing that you have the rules on your side either, Dave. You seem to be the only one beating the "it must be a standard action!!" drum.

That you have such confidence in your interpretation of the rules is inspiring of course, but did the possibility occur to you that it might indeed, be a grey area, one of many?

prototype00

Grey areas abound in D&D, usually because of poorly written rules. This is certainly an example of a poorly written ability / section of the rules, although it seems perhaps less grey to me than to others. Still, these rules are sufficiently unclear that the question warranted being asked. That's why you're asking it. All I'm doing is answering it to the best of my ability, and questioning how you arrived at your interpretation (EDIT: And how did you arrive at your interpretation, incidentally?).

I would like to point out however, that I'm the only person quoting any actual rules to justify my interpretation, and that nobody has yet demonstrated why the rules I've quoted do not apply. If you're not convinced, so be it, although it would be nice if you could quote some rules to justify your position too. Regardless, you should show your DM the stuff I've quoted; see if he's as unconvinced as you are.


I think people give the Ninja's Ki way too much credit. How high do you think a Ninja's CHA is really going to be? Consider that they need DEX, can't really dump STR, everyone needs CON, can't dump WIS, at 10th level they'll have what 7 Ki if they're lucky. Using Forgotten Trick uses up half their Ki with one shot. I don't think that is the most unbalancing thing a Ninja can do.


I actually agree with Dave here, since the ability does not spell out any action and it isn't part of an action it would stand to reason it is infact a standard action.

That is if all the rules made sense, I am pretty sure the developers never once looked at the rules that Dave quoted, the weird thing is that you have to pay the ki point cost of the ability you are gaining, which seems to suggest you immediately activate it and thus would be dependant on the ability you pick. Having it as a standard action sure makes the forgotten trick easier to swallow for me since it is a pretty lame I can do everything kinda deal.


I'm new to these forums, but I read up that monks can only use Ki on their turn, as a swift action.

Isn't that the same for a Ninja?


Quote:
Having it as a standard action sure makes the forgotten trick easier to swallow for me since it is a pretty lame I can do everything kinda deal.

So you support Dave's interpretation because you dislike the trick?

Actually now that I read another thread on the advice forum, I am reminded that the Qinggong monks get to activate their feat ki powers (which works more or less like the ninja's situation) as a free action on their turn. Would there be any reason the same situation would be unbalanced in applying to the Ninja's forgotten trick?

prototype00


prototype00 wrote:
Quote:
Having it as a standard action sure makes the forgotten trick easier to swallow for me since it is a pretty lame I can do everything kinda deal.

So you support Dave's interpretation because you dislike the trick?

Actually now that I read another thread on the advice forum, I am reminded that the Qinggong monks get to activate their feat ki powers (which works more or less like the ninja's situation) as a free action on their turn. Would there be any reason the same situation would be unbalanced in applying to the Ninja's forgotten trick?

prototype00

Sort of, I am not using the ninja at all as of the moment and if I would use it, probably by modifying the rogue rather than using the ninja as is, I would most likely ban this particular trick. I am just saying it would be more agreeable to me as a standard action balance wise.

If my players were admant using the trick I'd settle to use a swift action unless the 'copied' trick is used otherwise, like featherfall, you keep access to the trick for 1 round per level paying cost everytime you use it after.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I would agree with Dave in the use of Forgotten Trick being a standard action. You are, in effect, recalling something you had either chosen not to or been denied the chance to study and practice. You spend the greater part of 6 seconds, along with a supernatural augmentation (the 2 ki points) to gain an "AH-HA!" moment. The power states that you can use the forgotten trick for a number of rounds equal to the ninja level. in the case of your crane wing example you would need to spend 2 ki points as a standard action to gain the benefits of the crane wing feat for X number of rounds.

1 to 50 of 66 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | next > last >>
Paizo / Messageboards / Paizo Publishing / Pathfinder® / Pathfinder RPG / Rules Questions / For a ninja, what action is it to use forgotten trick to emulate a combat feat? All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.

©2002–2014 Paizo Inc.®. Need help? Email customer.service@paizo.com or call 425-250-0800 during our business hours: Monday–Friday, 10 AM–5 PM Pacific Time. View our privacy policy. Paizo Inc., Paizo, the Paizo golem logo, Pathfinder, the Pathfinder logo, Pathfinder Society, GameMastery, and Planet Stories are registered trademarks of Paizo Inc., and Pathfinder Roleplaying Game, Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Pathfinder Adventure Path, Pathfinder Adventure Card Game, Pathfinder Player Companion, Pathfinder Modules, Pathfinder Tales, Pathfinder Battles, Pathfinder Online, PaizoCon, RPG Superstar, The Golem's Got It, Titanic Games, the Titanic logo, and the Planet Stories planet logo are trademarks of Paizo Inc. Dungeons & Dragons, Dragon, Dungeon, and Polyhedron are registered trademarks of Wizards of the Coast, Inc., a subsidiary of Hasbro, Inc., and have been used by Paizo Inc. under license. Most product names are trademarks owned or used under license by the companies that publish those products; use of such names without mention of trademark status should not be construed as a challenge to such status.