| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I'd agree, it is appalling.
As evidenced in this thread, a fair portion of folks have the mentality that this rude, inconsiderate behavior is no big deal, and, in fact, is completely appropriate and that they shouldn't be considered anything but perfect guests because of it.
The gamer community (tabletop, MMO, video, etc.) seems to have an inordinate amount of people with poor social skills who seek to excuse their behavior by self-diagnosing themselves with social disorders and then rather than seek help/treatment/counseling for such, instead revel in it and expect everyone to treat them like the special snowflake that they think they are. This is what leads to comments like "Did you really expect better from gamers?"
It's a "ME ME ME, IT'S ALL ABOUT ME!" mentality at it's worst extreme.
It's really quite boorish and tiresome, and one of the big reasons I myself am attempting to recruit new members to our group from someplace OTHER than the FLGS. I want to game, but I don't want to game with the typical gamers (of which we've seen a number of in this thread), or their apologists, being described.
There really isn't an excuse for this kind of behavior.
AMEN! I've been following this thread since the OP, and it makes me sad to see how justifiable this behavior is (call me naive, or maybe I just have really good friends, but I have never met someone who could excuse away that kind of rudeness). Why can't we just try not being selfish? Put others first. The golden rule. How about treating our hosts like they're doing us favors and not meeting obligations?
Jal Dorak, I'm right there with you.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
It's kind of appalling though when people think that being a gamer is an excuse for same.Wow...are you shocked to discover gamers with poor socail skills and no sense of socail contract? If so, can I sell you a bridge?
I'd agree, it is appalling.
As evidenced in this thread, a fair portion of folks have the mentality that this rude, inconsiderate behavior is no big deal, and, in fact, is completely appropriate and that they shouldn't be considered anything but perfect guests because of it.
The gamer community (tabletop, MMO, video, etc.) seems to have an inordinate amount of people with poor social skills who seek to excuse their behavior by self-diagnosing themselves with social disorders and then rather than seek help/treatment/counseling for such, instead revel in it and expect everyone to treat them like the special snowflake that they think they are. This is what leads to comments like "Did you really expect better from gamers?"
It's a "ME ME ME, IT'S ALL ABOUT ME!" mentality at it's worst extreme.
It's really quite boorish and tiresome, and one of the big reasons I myself am attempting to recruit new members to our group from someplace OTHER than the FLGS. I want to game, but I don't want to game with the typical gamers (of which we've seen a number of in this thread), or their apologists, being described.
There really isn't an excuse for this kind of behavior.
See, I'd offer Brian a glass of milk. And probably have beer or soda stocked for him and the rest of the crew.
He sounds like the kind of chap who might even thank me after I told him to help himself and not to worry about asking.
I learned DnD in the military, so it was relatively late in my gaming career that I finally met certain kinds of gamers and figured out why everyone thought DnD was for social pariahs. It's a shame some people don't have any better self control than a chimpanzee masturbating in front of your grandmother at the zoo, but I'm not sure why people are ok with them moving from the exaggerated stereotype to the rule. And not even with just apathy, but vigilantly defending that move.
I feel bad for anyone who is so hard up for a game that they are willing to do so with people who couldn't scrounge up enough common courtesy to fill a thimble even if they scraped all of their dry, unwashed skin off.
And to Harbin...yes, it does surprise me. I'm not surprised at bad manners, or awkward bluntness or someone who giggles when they hear 'breasts'. But to see a gagglefrig of nerds rising to defend someone who stole from his hosts with statements about how courtesy is the devil...yeah. That's not to be expected.
I feel bad for the OP's hosts. Clearly nonconfrontational folks, and G-D bless 'em for it.. The guy would have had a very different experience openly and disrespectfully stealing from me.
-For the record I wrote that while drinking, (see the beautiful spelling of 'society' in my previous post)
-I was certainly not trying to approve of such behavior. I was simply saying in my experience, such behavior is so common among gamers, that it borders on cliche.
-In general I have noticed that those who are older, or military, who entered the game as a hobby, are far,far more polite than those who entered the game drawn as socail pariahs in high school in the late 80's and 90s. Obvious exceptions exist.
-In fact, what is quite amazing to me is HOW LONG this thread is. I mean, this isn't a moral issue. If people decide they don't want you back:ERGO you are a BAD guest. If they thought you were a good guest, they'd invite you back.
-I've also learned to lock the milk if I run another game.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Everyone who has said "oh, it was just milk, they sound like uptight pricks", do you REALLY believe that ANYONE who comes into your house can take WHATEVER they want from you?
That is a blanket statement made entirely in absolutes (insert geek joke - something about Sith and absolutes or something). This thread was not about absolutes, and civil attitudes and accepted behavior rarely involve absolutes. Let me answer it by removing the absolutes and going back to the intent:
I really believe that most people who come into my house (particularly friends for gaming), can take most things they want from me, including your aforementioned aftershave, deodorant, porn-mags, or milk.
And that not only do you have no right to say no, but that they have the right to get indignant about it if you do?
I have absolutely no idea where you got this sentence from. You have every right to say no if you wish. They also have every right to get indignant. What exactly are rights again? I'm fairly certain nobody has ever removed rights involving emotions or attitudes in America and most other modern countries. I'm not sure I follow your point.
If you were intending to indicate that somebody in this thread made a major point about either of these, I have not seen it. In my eyes, saying "no" makes you a variably rude host, and getting indignant is rarely a good choice as well. Was I wrong when I felt like that question was somehow making these two things connected or inclusive?
But for people on this thread to state things like "politeness makes me suspicious"
Nobody stated that politeness, in itself, makes them suspicious. There was a conversation about overt and long term politeness with no natural progression towards closer forms of linguistic interaction making them suspicious. There are studies about this. You are changing the point by taking it to an extreme and using it as an absolute statement. You missed the point.
But for people on this thread to state things like... "people who complain when others take things they were asked not to are just uptight"
This was also not said. What WAS said is that it is a host's job to offer things and that it is uptight to make a large deal out of small slights. The host can "complain", although I would prefer if the host did it in a polite manner, such as "Would you please refrain from X". Being direct, firm, and yet civil is an adult way to deal with a grievance.
The host in the example given was passive aggressive and silent. They also kicked somebody out for a glass of milk. These two actions are fairly uptight, not the example you gave about "complaining when others take things they were asked not to".
In fact, you later said
Clearly nonconfrontational folks, and G-D bless 'em for it..
Non-confrontational behavior is actually a fairly large sign of social immaturity. Confrontation does not need to be anger filled or physical. Ignoring a problem rarely solves it. Confronting fears and outstanding issues is the only method to reach understanding and resolution. There's reasons why passive aggressiveness are considered faux pas.
But for people on this thread to state things like... "swearing is a sign of maturity, being offended is a sign of immaturity"
For the third time, you used an absolute which completely negates and ignores the points made by posters. Let me rephrase this in the manner in which it was discussed:
Swearing is not necessarily a sign of immaturity, being offended is often a sign of emotional immaturity.
The differences seem subtle, but they make the world of difference when it comes to understanding. Swearing has been found to be more a symptom of linguistic barriers more than anything else.
As evidenced in this thread, a fair portion of folks have the mentality that this rude, inconsiderate behavior is no big deal, and, in fact, is completely appropriate and that they shouldn't be considered anything but perfect guests because of it.
I've been following this thread since the OP, and it makes me sad to see how justifiable this behavior is
But to see a gagglefrig of nerds rising to defend someone who stole from his hosts with statements about how courtesy is the devil...
All three of these posts are putting words into other poster's mouths (fingers?). Nobody said that the guest was completely appropriate, a perfect guest, his behavior was justifiable, or that courtesy is the devil. Criticisms of the host are not a free pass for the guest. This host was terrible, but the guest was rude. I've seen no posts out of 353 which say that this guest was being a good guest.
There are no excuses in this world, only reasons and forgiveness. You may have a reason for doing something, but it is not an excuse for doing it. The adult thing to do is relax and offer forgiveness and patience for others. I criticize the host more-so than the guest because, like all people, he's not perfect, but the host is showing signs of the type of emotional immaturity and closed mindedness that I particularly dislike.
Why can't we just try not being selfish? Put others first. The golden rule.
You offer these questions as a way of targeting the guest, but every single one of these could be said to the host as well. The guest was guilty of a lack of awareness and tact, however the host was guilty of a lack of empathy. The golden rule works both ways.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I would have hoped the big wicker shoe rack right inside the door would be a visual cue, but I think it's like the rug -- people don't really visually register things like rugs and furniture that they already half-expect to see.
I am not in the habit of taking off my shoes inside. Usually my cue to at someone else's place is seeing the host (or someone else) do so. Shoe racks probably wouldn't get the point across to me, to be totally honest, because I wouldn't really pay attention to them, when I'm coming into someone's place my attention is usually somewhere else.
Asking would, though, unless it was super long between visits that's the kind of thing a guest should remember.
The rug thing... yeah, I would probably totally trample all over your rug and not even notice unless you mentioned it. It's not the kind of thing I would think of, I suspect. A lot less likely than the shoes, even :p
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Someone you only interact with 3 times in 5 months is not someone that should expect "familiar" speech patterns. They should expect to be treated like a polite distant acquaintance, not your best bud that you call to help you move in that new big piece of furniture.
Profanity is often a sign of ignorance not immaturity. Disliking it may be a sign of immaturity, or it may just be a personal preference. I mean, not liking chocolate ice-cream but liking strawberry isn't a sign of immaturity, it is a sign of a personal preference. And given that profanity is often a sign of ignorance/poor education, it certainly makes sense that a parent might not want to have their children exposed to such speech as an acceptable way of interacting. Children follow examples much better than being told to behave in a certain way. Thus children may use speech they overheard from the parent's guests, and then give the impression that the child is actually ignorant/poorly educated (due to the fact that profanity is often a sign of ignorance).
The hosts asked the guest to (1)not use profanity and (2)not drink the milk. This OPer didn't say that they were rude about it, so I don't think we should assume they were. When the guest continued these behaviors, the hosts did not throw them out of the home immediately. They just informed the guest later that they would not longer be welcome. This guest was only a distant acquaintance and thus had no real expectation of long term "friendship".
I fail to see how that behavior is "immature".
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The guest was guilty of a lack of awareness and tact, however the host was guilty of a lack of empathy.
It bears consideration is that these horrible sociopathic hosts didn't throw him out of their house, but simply didn't extend a fourth (I think) invitation. Gren, I'm well aware that cultural interaction is all relative, but can I ask you, what do think would be a justifiable reason not to invite someone back to your house?
(My porn is my own, I need that stuff!)
I would have hoped the big wicker shoe rack right inside the door would be a visual cue, but I think it's like the rug -- people don't really visually register things like rugs and furniture that they already half-expect to see.I am not in the habit of taking off my shoes inside. Usually my cue to at someone else's place is seeing the host (or someone else) do so. Shoe racks probably wouldn't get the point across to me, to be totally honest, because I wouldn't really pay attention to them, when I'm coming into someone's place my attention is usually somewhere else.
Asking would, though, unless it was super long between visits that's the kind of thing a guest should remember.
The rug thing... yeah, I would probably totally trample all over your rug and not even notice unless you mentioned it. It's not the kind of thing I would think of, I suspect. A lot less likely than the shoes, even :p
here in GErmany the shoe thing is a generation thing. older people would mostly be shocked and find it impolite if guests take of there shoes, younger people 50% want you to take them off 50% don't care either way.
it is custom to ask when you enter a house if you should take them off or the host outright tells you to (yeah, we are very direct, to the point other countries think we are rude)
in muslim households you always take your shoes of before entering the front door (usually a shoe rack is beside the door)
most households who wants you to take of the shoes will have felt-slippers at hand for the colder month
Profanity is often a sign of ignorance not immaturity. Disliking it may be a sign of immaturity, or it may just be a personal preference.
Funny, I tend to view profanity as a mark of intelligence, i.e. a person smart enough to realize that there are no 'magic' words.
I try to respect when others ask me to refrain from the profane, but it's pretty $*#& hard some times.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I just prefer guests in my house refrain from profanity in the company of my children. When the kids aren't around, say whatever. But sometimes, if someone is on a rant or diatribe and cursing up a storm, I'll ask them to tone it down a little. It just makes for a lot of negativity, which can dampen the mood of hanging out.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Profanity is often a sign of ignorance not immaturity. Disliking it may be a sign of immaturity, or it may just be a personal preference.Funny, I tend to view profanity as a mark of intelligence, i.e. a person smart enough to realize that there are no 'magic' words.
Are you referring to the fact that intelligent person knows that profanities have their use as expression of strong emotions and using them without reason in every sentence means either that a) the speaker does not know their meaning and role (i.e. is not very intelligent because intelligent people don't use words without knowing their meaning), b) lacks the ability to build coherent sentences, c) has serious emotional issues or d) tries to make a false impression on others about own emotional state and/or vocabulary?
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Profanity is often a sign of ignorance not immaturity. Disliking it may be a sign of immaturity, or it may just be a personal preference.Funny, I tend to view profanity as a mark of intelligence, i.e. a person smart enough to realize that there are no 'magic' words.
I try to respect when others ask me to refrain from the profane, but it's pretty $*#& hard some times.
If that is the case ('no magic words'), then why use a profane word that may appear (reasonable or not) distasteful to some instead of a non-profane word that allows you to cover the same meaning?
While I use profane words from time to time, I can hardly think of a situation where, if I wanted to, couldn't have conveyed the same meaning with less colourful words.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Derailing swear-word rant:
I play fairly aggressive music(industrial metal/goth rock), and I used to sing for death metal/hardcore bands. I make it a point to only use curse words very sparingly, or not at all.
It bears consideration is that these horrible sociopathic hosts didn't throw him out of their house, but simply didn't extend a fourth (I think) invitation. Gren, I'm well aware that cultural interaction is all relative, but can I ask you, what do think would be a justifiable reason not to invite someone back to your house?
(My porn is my own, I need that stuff!)
As I mentioned in a previous post, not extending a future invitation is often appropriate, so I agree with you on that part. I think the way I view this as different is that there is a scheduled social event that this also kicks them out of. It can, in some occasions, be a small difference I suppose. I'm not a fan of going to what I consider an extreme resolution so quickly.
Also, by all accounts, they didn't even tell this person directly, instead relying on a third party (the GM) to deliver their message.
What do I think is a justifiable reason? Hmmm... good question! In the end, I think my answer will have to be that not all situations are equal, even if they seem to be. I can justify not allowing people back into my house simply because I hate them, but I also don't grow to dislike people easily. It takes a very large amount of things to add up to that lack of patience and sympathy on my part. I don't think I can name what these things are though, but can at least say that different people simply rub you the wrong way and can achieve a general dislike faster than others (this does not mean that they can achieve it quickly, but faster than others). I will always be willing to admit that disliking a person is a show of my own weaknesses and immaturity. Nobody is perfect.
*deep breath* Long thought out answer: 10-20 separate acts that bother the crap out of me. This is severely reduced if this person stole from me directly, on purpose, and I learn later that they do not regret or feel sorry for it.
Also, since you asked, I will not take your porn. ^.^
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
(yeah, we are very direct, to the point other countries think we are rude)
Maybe it's the fact that I've lived in Germany (and in NY, for that matter -- another place with a reputation for blunt rudeness), but I personally appreciate the directness very much -- when I ask someone a question, it always seems rude to me if the person hems and haws and goes in circles to avoid answering it (or worse, directly lies to me by telling me what they think I want to hear, rather than what's true).
|
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
it is custom to ask when you enter a house if you should take them off or the host outright tells you to (yeah, we are very direct, to the point other countries think we are rude)
Well, it would help if you didn't scream "SCHNELL!" so often at people who are removing their shoes...
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
... What do you think? Was I really that bad?
You were asked to leave. The answer is yes.
It doesn't matter what you think, what matters is what they think.
But, take heart. Once you get your own place, and invite your gamer
friends over to play, then you can start kicking people out you don't
like. The world has balance.
.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
The whole milk thing is still just pretty mind boggling to me. I know that some people think that asking for milk is no different than asking for water, soda, coffee, or other drinks, but it just feels to me it is.
Now I'm assuming standard dairy milk. Milk can't be stored in a warm place, unlike soda or beer for example. So you can't really "stock" up on milk. This means it has to be kept in the refrigerator and it often takes up a significant portion of the space in it. So people don't tend to stock up with multiple gallons of milk based on the idea that guests may want it.
For myself, I rarely actually drink milk directly. I often use it for cooking, for eating cold cereal, or in a cup of coffee. So I don't usually buy a lot of it because I know I won't drink it all before it goes bad, which it does fairly quickly even though it is kept refrigerated. Now I might be an extreme outlier, but my experience visiting the homes of other gamers doesn't make me think so.
Probably if someone really wanted to drink milk as badly as this person did, I would probably suggest purchasing powered milk and asking to keep it at the home of the game. Then you could make as much milk as you wished to drink without infringing on the hosts perishable foodstuffs.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Pres man, I guess that just shows how different people can be. Milk is not a problem for me because I grew up on a farm. Upstairs, we had a fridge and a large chest freezer. In the basement, another fridge, two chest freezers, and an upright freezer. In the garage, two more chest freezers. We never ran out of milk because we had cows. Getting a can of green beans meant going into the basement pantry and retrieving one of the Mason jars you canned last August. My dad was laid off from the mine for half my childhood, but no matter how poor we were, we never ran out of food.
It wasn't until I moved for college did I realize how much food cost in the real world. It wasn't until then that I realized not everyone has a gallon of milk in the fridge and two stored away in the basement.
|
I would have been much more direct than the hosts were.
Guest: "May I have a glass of milk?"
Me: "What are you 10? Go f*$ck yourself."
Problem solved. This simple sentence would have conveyed that I am not throwing a dinner party to entertain you for free - I am offering my home out of necessity for a gaming location. You don't like it? Fine, lets have it at your house then.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
While I agree that hosting a game at your house is not quite the same as entertaining guests. a reaction like that on a reasnable and polite question would be enough to let me reconsider wanting to game with you.
Seriously, there are better ways to make your point than uncalled rudeness.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
If one must drink milk, why not BRING IT WITH YOU!
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
No argument there, but if I ask politely, the least I would expect is a polite answer. All points 'No', 'No I think everyone should bring his own foodstuff' etc. could be conveyed without insulting me.
Back to the OP:
Even if you consider hosting a game the same as entertaining guests, it is the hosts right to deny any of the foodstuff or drinks to his guests, whatever his reasons are, and he should not be forced to discuss his reasons if he doesn't want to.
Taking of this 'off limits' stuff,once known, whether it is just milk or the finest wine ever made is inexcusably rude and, in my opinion, the worse offence compared to being a bad host.
Even if you consider hosting a game the same as entertaining guests, it is the hosts right to deny any of the foodstuff or drinks to his guests, whatever his reasons are, and he should not be forced to discuss his reasons if he doesn't want to.
Just so you know, almost all common rules of etiquette rule against this. Following the generally accepted and most widespread rules: As a host, you do not deny foodstuffs. The sharing of bread has always traditionally been one of the host's main concerns (alongside of diplomacy between guests) since serfdom.
The idea that a host has the right to deny foodstuff is a newer one, and is extremely isolated into societal pockets. Generally, it's only seen in America, but can be seen in other countries as well.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Hosts offering food and drink is common, yes. I would say that is the default behavior
Guests demanding and helping themselves to whatever food and drink that happens to be in the home, probably is not as common.
Even if the guest knows that the host has a certain food or drink and the host indicates they do not have that to serve, the guest should politely "pretend" as if they didn't know the item is actually present. At least that is how I have experienced it, but of course I live in the crude neanderthal US.
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
The crux of the debate is about familiarity.
If you're a close friend, help yourself to whatever you like. If you act like a butt, we're good enough friends that i can tell you that.
If you're someone I don't really know or I am only acquainted with, you should ask. If you drink the last of the milk (weird) and my kids don't have any for the Saturday morning cereal, I'm gonna be p-o'ed.
Familiarity is key. It determines what you can and can't get away with.
-Skeld
Guests demanding and helping themselves to whatever food and drink that happens to be in the home, probably is not as common.
Even if the guest knows that the host has a certain food or drink and the host indicates they do not have that to serve, the guest should politely "pretend" as if they didn't know the item is actually present. At least that is how I have experienced it, but of course I live in the crude neanderthal US.
Well yeah, that would be a good guest. ^.^ US or not, you show understanding of the guest principles with a nice finesse. Nobody has yet to say that the OP was being a good guest.
Also just to be clear, I have never once said that the US and other areas that adapt new etiquette and hospitality rules are doing a negative thing. The reason why I study sociology (not professionally) is because perspective is unique and interesting. I wouldn't call the US crude or neanderthal like for having it's own agenda with hospitality, just different. I think it adds a lot to the discussion when people realize their strong moral codes on this matter are subjective to the area in which they live.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
I think it adds a lot to the discussion when people realize their strong moral codes on this matter are subjective to the area in which they live.
"Forgive him, Caesar – he is a barbarian and considers that the customs of his tribe are the laws of nature."
--Caesar and Cleopatra.
--Caesar and Cleopatra.
Wow, George Bernard Shaw has better linguistic poise than I.
On that note, I wanted to backtrack a bit to a slightly older post:
If that is the case ('no magic words'), then why use a profane word that may appear (reasonable or not) distasteful to some instead of a non-profane word that allows you to cover the same meaning?
While I use profane words from time to time, I can hardly think of a situation where, if I wanted to, couldn't have conveyed the same meaning with less colourful words.
The crux of this (yes I was indeed jealous that Skeld used "crux" in his opening sentence) is that you are an articulate person while others are not. One could then theorize that linguistic talent is a sign of intelligence, but there are certainly many other forms of intelligence that often come with poor communication skills that give this theory far too little credibility.
Generally speaking, it's difficult to view the world outside of your own abilities, but that's the trick to understanding people. It may be a challenge, but we can't assume that others with poor linguistic skills are unintelligent or not creative simply because they are lacking in a way that we do not comprehend.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Even if you consider hosting a game the same as entertaining guests, it is the hosts right to deny any of the foodstuff or drinks to his guests, whatever his reasons are, and he should not be forced to discuss his reasons if he doesn't want to.Just so you know, almost all common rules of etiquette rule against this. Following the generally accepted and most widespread rules: As a host, you do not deny foodstuffs. The sharing of bread has always traditionally been one of the host's main concerns (alongside of diplomacy between guests) since serfdom.
*shrugs*
I don't know that the idea that a guest does not have free right to the host's goods is a new one. Odysseus had some things to say about guests helping themselves too freely to his things, didn't he?
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
Odysseus had some things to say about guests helping themselves too freely to his things, didn't he?
If your definition of "guests" is "guys who have laid siege to my household and want to ball my wife," then I suspect the disagreement here is deeper than just whether a guy can have a glass of milk...
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Odysseus had some things to say about guests helping themselves too freely to his things, didn't he?If your definition of "guests" is "guys who have laid siege to my household and want to ball my wife," then I suspect the disagreement here is deeper than just whether a guy can have a glass of milk...
What if they just want some milk from a source more "local".
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Even if you consider hosting a game the same as entertaining guests, it is the hosts right to deny any of the foodstuff or drinks to his guests, whatever his reasons are, and he should not be forced to discuss his reasons if he doesn't want to.Just so you know, almost all common rules of etiquette rule against this. Following the generally accepted and most widespread rules: As a host, you do not deny foodstuffs. The sharing of bread has always traditionally been one of the host's main concerns (alongside of diplomacy between guests) since serfdom.
The idea that a host has the right to deny foodstuff is a newer one, and is extremely isolated into societal pockets. Generally, it's only seen in America, but can be seen in other countries as well.
Common rule of etiquette in mid- and western europe (Carolingan traditions to be exact)demanded that the guest receives the best food and drink. That does not mean however, the best food that is in your house (nobles had to spend a long time to gather 'adequate' means for entertaining the King if he chose to stay at the nobles estate), but the best food that was served - the best part of the game, the best wine at the table etc. In no way could a guest demand (unless the king or anther superior noble, but that had nothing to do with hospitality) other food or wine to be served.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The crux of this (yes I was indeed jealous that Skeld used "crux" in his opening sentence) is that you are an articulate person while others are not. One could then theorize that linguistic talent is a sign of intelligence, but there are certainly many other forms of intelligence that often come with poor communication skills that give this theory far too little credibility.Generally speaking, it's difficult to view the world outside of your own abilities, but that's the trick to understanding people. It may be a challenge, but we can't assume that others with poor linguistic skills are unintelligent or not creative simply because they are lacking in a way that we do not comprehend.
While the use of profanity may or may not be an indicator of relative intelligence or communication skill, the perhaps deliberate misunderstanding of "Please do not curse while you are here" may be a sign that they have trouble understanding simple concepts and a lack of empathy for those around them.
Since we only have the OP's side of this we aren't sure how much he was cursing. Did the hosts overreact about a single term or was it a Dennis Leary-worthy rant of epic proportions every time they opened their mouth? Those with children are often more sensitive to this sort of thing, but they are not the only ones with a problem about it; my wife's sister just doesn't like profanity at all.
The ability to use profanity isn't anything special nor is it a sign of intelligence or maturity in my opinion; I hear children on the playground that are quite proficient. Most of the arguments I've heard about the "right" to curse are more centered around the person not wanting to be told what to do rather than some defense of the words. My kids know that those are words I don't want them to use, and those I've played with in my home are polite enough to ramp down the language and I thank them for it.
Other people have sore spots about talk of gore or sex or politics or religion or whatever, and it would seem that if your hosts ask you to not use that language or let a topic go, the polite thing would be to not do whatever it is so that we can get back to the more important thing, playing!
As far as the food and milk goes, I've always cooked for my players or at least had food around for them at my home, but the vast majority of those people were close friends. Even then, they'd ask before riffling through the cabinets or fridge for something. The milk may not seem like a big deal to many, but if the OP's host had children or infants, you are taking a portion of those kid's daily food. $2-4 here and there adds up and means an extra trip to the store to replace it as well.
If you're a big milk drinker, or other beverage for that matter, bringing extras to replace what you're consuming is a polite thing to do. I've seen people down a case of soda in a gaming session, or an entire bottle of booze or whatever. It isn't cheap, and while the host is polite enough to provide food and drinks doesn't mean it's your obligation to take as much as you can shove in your body.
The OP was a poor guest. We only have his side of this and don't know how many times or how vocal the host or others at the gaming table were. For all we know, it was a constant point of conversation that the OP blew off because it wasn't important. I've noticed that many that post on the Internet tend to gloss over the points that make them look bad.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Common rule of etiquette in mid- and western europe (Carolingan traditions to be exact)demanded that the guest receives the best food and drink. That does not mean however, the best food that is in your house (nobles had to spend a long time to gather 'adequate' means for entertaining the King if he chose to stay at the nobles estate), but the best food that was served - the best part of the game, the best wine at the table etc. In no way could a guest demand (unless the king or anther superior noble, but that had nothing to do with hospitality) other food or wine to be served.Even if you consider hosting a game the same as entertaining guests, it is the hosts right to deny any of the foodstuff or drinks to his guests, whatever his reasons are, and he should not be forced to discuss his reasons if he doesn't want to.Just so you know, almost all common rules of etiquette rule against this. Following the generally accepted and most widespread rules: As a host, you do not deny foodstuffs. The sharing of bread has always traditionally been one of the host's main concerns (alongside of diplomacy between guests) since serfdom.
The idea that a host has the right to deny foodstuff is a newer one, and is extremely isolated into societal pockets. Generally, it's only seen in America, but can be seen in other countries as well.
Wasn't dueling to the death over matters of honor pretty common in such societies? Surely no one thinks that's appropriate on game night?!
And now seriously: I find that there's a distinction between guest-in-my-house-eat-all-you-want-and-don't-worry-about-the-dishes and came-over-for-game-night. GIMHEAYWADWTD is the old saw, "be kind to strangers, you never know when you might be one," while COFGN is much closer to a bowling league or something.
Not to say that you shouldn't be kind to strangers, but dealing with someone who's going to come over and play D&D on a regular basis is something else. OP's whole report of what happened seems like applying for a job and calling them mean for not hiring you.
Cursing around people who are offended by it is a sign that you don't care about respecting those people. Cursing around people you don't know is a sign that you don't respect them because it isn't worth your time to find out how they feel.
Not knowing or getting what I just wrote is ignorant. Not caring is shameful.
Shame on me, then. Sometimes I just don't feel like kowtowing to the superstitions of others. They might benefit from loosening up a bit and realizing that words can't hurt them. But hey, I'm chaotic neutral like that.
Shame on me, then. Sometimes I just don't feel like kowtowing to the superstitions of others. They might benefit from loosening up a bit and realizing that words can't hurt them. But hey, I'm chaotic neutral like that.Cursing around people who are offended by it is a sign that you don't care about respecting those people. Cursing around people you don't know is a sign that you don't respect them because it isn't worth your time to find out how they feel.
Not knowing or getting what I just wrote is ignorant. Not caring is shameful.
Just because you're more mature than they are, that's no reason to hurt their feelings. :P
Shame on me, then. Sometimes I just don't feel like kowtowing to the superstitions of others. They might benefit from loosening up a bit and realizing that words can't hurt them. But hey, I'm chaotic neutral like that.
Maybe you should try to take it back. LOL
NSFW (or pretty much anywhere)
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Wasn't dueling to the death over matters of honor pretty common in such societies? Surely no one thinks that's appropriate on game night?!
Yeah, and I think they also had some rather odd notions about equality, too. All that proper etiquette certainly didn't extend to a pretty large portion of the general population.
lots of stuff...
Agreed as an articulate critique of the guest. One of the few I've read that was not full of absolution, anger, or personal judgments of others.
Well done.
Cursing around people who are offended by it is a sign that you don't care about respecting those people. Cursing around people you don't know is a sign that you don't respect them because it isn't worth your time to find out how they feel.
Not knowing or getting what I just wrote is ignorant. Not caring is shameful.
I've many times seen the use of cursing as becoming casual and habitual. I would say that this is certainly more tactless and thoughtless, but that's not quite intentionally disrespectful.
Also, misunderstanding your opinion isn't ignorant, and being callous towards a differing opinion isn't necessarily shameful. I'm not certain why you added sentences that simply insult people not on board with you.
I am a very cussy person when I'm not around my family. I respect my mother a great deal, and yet I still sometimes will drop the F-bomb around her, because I am so used to saying it when I'm not home. By your assessment, because I slip up and cuss around someone who doesn't like me to (mother), then that must mean I don't respect her.
When I cuss around those who I know not to like it, it's not disrespect, it's habit. When I do slip up, I get an embarrassed look on my face and apologize. It usually ends up being forgiven.
I should add: I also curb my mouth when meeting new people. Just until I know how they feel about cussing. I usually find out on that first slip up.