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Was I guilty of being a bad guest?


Gamer Talk

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Cheliax

The biggest thing that stood out after reading your post was that you were/are apathetic to these things. To avoid future incidents it is important to at least attempt a degree of empathy with your host. When someone says "Make your self at home" that is very realative and unfortunatly few people actually mean that. We are all socialized differantly so there really is no right or wrong, good or bad guest. The offenses you listed did seem minor to me, and I am surprised they did not just discuss them with you befor dropping you from the group.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
GrenMeera wrote:
"Haladir wrote:
Even it it's for positions with no public presence.
This generally removes the public presence aspect that you were referring to. I even added a stipulation about co-worker interaction in my post specifically to try to avoid confusion.

Again, this goes to the whole "litmus test of life skills" argument.

It has been my experience that inappropriate use of profanity is highly correlated to other generally unprofessional behavior (lateness, absenteeism, dress code violations, poor performance, etc.)

So, to save my company money, I don't hire such people if I can suss them out first. And that's one big red flag. There are others.


I think the majority of the issue stems from the fact that it was mentioned to him yet he continued the said behavior. Each one event taken seperately may have been okay but when put together came across as rude and disrespectful to the host. After all this was their house and they asked for him to stop drinking the milk and stop swearing. As for the debt on the pizza the time period between the events seemed to cumulate three different times and he did not pay each time. Seems like a pattern to me on top of the other events I can see not wanting them over at my house.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Haladir wrote:


It has been my experience that inappropriate use of profanity is highly correlated to other generally unprofessional behavior (lateness, absenteeism, dress code violations, poor performance, etc.)

Just have to watch out for confirmation bias on these sorts of things. A personally held conviction or impression also tends to correlate with perceptions of unprofessional behavior.


How's your hygiene?

It would seem forgetting your pizza money, a little cussing, or a milk faux pas could be forgiven, if it were infrequent and you made up for it later with cash, or just checking yourself.

I imagine you bother them for a lot of reasons they just don't want to talk about for fear of hurting your feelings even more.

Look for another group, and be on your best behavior next time. Take a shower. Bring some chips, some beer or soda, and some cash in small bills if everybody decides on some take-out, and offer to go get it.

I've gotten stoned and drunk in some groups. It would have been rude to not pitch in some booze or weed. One host would have a fit if your forgot to take your shoes off, though.

In others I've played with, that would be unthinkable. It's on you to know what's acceptable, and behave accordingly. Different hosts have different attitudes about what's acceptable in their homes. Some have kids, or a wife who barely tolerates a group of nerds taking her husband away from her beck and call for a few hours on Thursday night, and she's itching to pull his plug over the smallest thing.

Every home is a culture of its own, but they're nice enough to provide a space, so treat it with respect, and if you're not sure, ASK.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Drejk wrote:
That's the point, overuse of swearing is symptom of immaturity.

I thought you were saying earlier that swearing is a symptom of ignorance of higher vocabulary skills? That part I can agree with.

I don't see how immaturity has any relevance.

Haladir wrote:
It has been my experience that inappropriate use of profanity is highly correlated to other generally unprofessional behavior (lateness, absenteeism, dress code violations, poor performance, etc.)

Hmm, yes I can see how you can make that correlation. It depends upon when/how the profanity is used, but you have a nice blanket when you say "inappropriate".

I am myself very inappropriate at times. I also have control of this and can moderate myself when needed (such as on Paizo forums or around customers). Thankfully my company is also fabulously inappropriate and they can make good use of my talents. I'm quite good at what I do and have shown to be a huge asset to companies I've worked for. I'd hate to see it wasted by a company that can't see past a selection of language when alone or not in a professional work environment.

You are striking me to mean you are not so severe. Thank you for the input as your perspective has had an enlightening affect on my thoughts today.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Bill Dunn wrote:
Just have to watch out for confirmation bias on these sorts of things. A personally held conviction or impression also tends to correlate with perceptions of unprofessional behavior.

This is similar to the stance I was trying to convey, but you phrased it better than I did.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Going back to the original poster's question of "was I a bad guest?"

I think the answer is "yes, you were a bad guest."

It's possible that the hosts overreacted by dis-inviting you without talking it over with you first. However, since we're only hearing your side of the story, and given how defensive you seemed to be when other posters didn't side with you, it also seems likely to me that you were doing other things that the hosts found obnoxious, but thought weren't worth bringing up specifically.

It also sounds like that you weren't actually close friends with the hosts, and that they didn't have a whole lot at stake in cutting you loose.

Take this as a learning experience and move on!


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
GrenMeera wrote:

I am myself very inappropriate at times. I also have control of this and can moderate myself when needed (such as on Paizo forums or around customers). Thankfully my company is also fabulously inappropriate and they can make good use of my talents. I'm quite good at what I do and have shown to be a huge asset to companies I've worked for. I'd hate to see it wasted by a company that can't see past a selection of language when alone or not in a professional work environment.

You are striking me to mean you are not so severe. Thank you for the input as your perspective has had an enlightening affect on my thoughts today.

Well, "appropriate language" is situation-dependent. What's appropriate behavior in an office of a somewhat stodgy 150-year-old company is very different than what's appropriate at an outdoor folk music festival, which is itself different than what's appropriate at an S&M club. Using the F-word, is pretty much verboten at the former, not a big deal at the second, and expected at the latter.

And, again, foul language itself doesn't offend me. Inappropriate use of foul language can, depending on the situation. And, honestly, I think most people should err on the side of not using it, to give the words back some of the power they once had.

Shadow Lodge

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Nepherti wrote:
I was raised that a guest was waited on and made to feel comfortable. If someone is thirsty, give him drink. If someone is hungry, feed him. If someone spills something on his shirt, lend him one while you wash it. We don't care if you're just the plumber, you at least get a glass of iced tea and asked if you want us to make you a sandwich while in our house. Even the first group of gamers I hung around with were like this. We would game around a giant steaming pot of Shepherd's Pie or Chicken n Dumplings, feasting as we played. I think the dice even got lost in the mashed potatoes once.

Guests in your house, yes. Members of your gaming group, not so much. You think the host has an obligation to provide water? Yeah, I'm hip. Claiming that it's my job to feed five players every week because I was generous enough to let my living room be used for the game? That's just absurd.

When I host, the rule is that they can either chip in for a group dinner or provide their own. And if someone forgets and they're trustworthy, we'll let them slide. If they fail to cover it the next week, especially if they expect to be let slide again, I say hell no, you're an adult, and you know what the rules are. And I will (and have) publically shame people who just help themselves to my food without asking. If they have a problem with that, we can always play somewhere else, which is significantly easier for me.

And when I'm not hosting, I bring my own snacks and drinks, I chip in for the group meals, and on the rare occasion that I'm going to hit up my host for a soda or the like, I ask permission. Every. Time. Because anything else is just rude.

Shadow Lodge

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GrenMeera wrote:
This... seems like you are using your personal judgements of others as a measure when put in a position of control. This is dictatorial and irresponsible with the position you've been given. When in the responsible job of hiring, the quality of the applicant to perform the job at hand should be your only concern (yes, the applicant's ability to socialize with his coworkers still counts as his ability to...

Are you ... are you kidding? Is this a joke? The decision to not hire an applicant who is swearing during the application process and/or interview is "dictatorial and irresponsible?"

If people come in wearing torn jeans and don't take of their sunglasses, is he being "dictatorial and irresponsible" by judging their outfits? Of course not. His job is to screen people who don't present themselves properly.

Paper qualifications do not trump the entirety of a job interview or the interview would serve no purpose.


GrenMeera wrote:
Drejk wrote:
That's the point, overuse of swearing is symptom of immaturity.

I thought you were saying earlier that swearing is a symptom of ignorance of higher vocabulary skills? That part I can agree with.

I don't see how immaturity has any relevance.

As far as I managed to check meaning of symptom, it implies certain cause but might be produced by different cause. I was referring to the claims there is no relation between swearing and immaturity - the relation is that many people see overuse of swearing as implication of immaturity of the person swearing, rightfully or not, because they had experience with juveniles that naively thought that swearing is sign of adulthood.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
pathar wrote:
Are you ... are you kidding? Is this a joke? The decision to not hire an applicant who is swearing during the application process and/or interview is "dictatorial and irresponsible?"

You're taking what I said out of context. The context was in response to another person's comments which contained more important details to this summation.

Particularly, "swearing during the application process and/or interview" was a false assumption. Here is a section of what Haladir said that brought about my response which is NOT during the application process and/or interview:

Haladir wrote:
or who I overhear cussing while I'm eavesdropping on applicants' conversations

There is a fairly major difference.

Drejk wrote:
As far as I managed to check meaning of symptom, it implies certain cause but might be produced by different cause. I was referring to the claims there is no relation between swearing and immaturity - the relation is that many people see overuse of swearing as implication of immaturity of the person swearing, rightfully or not, because they had experience with juveniles that naively thought that swearing is sign of adulthood.

Ah! I misunderstood! Thank you for clarifying, that makes a lot of sense.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Also, I'd like to add a bit of a nuance to the hiring concept that has come forward.

Judging applicants based upon how they present themselves via clothing and manner of speech is the first step when learning how to determine an applicant's value to the company. It is one of those first impression displays of respect that has existed in industry for quite a long time and has become an iconic staple of showmanship.

Also, this can be further shown in the resume. When you first begin your job as a hiring director, the proper format, length, and wordage is used as a metric almost to its entirety.

...

When you get GOOD at hiring people, all of this slowly goes out the window. When you develop a keen eye for what the company needs and will benefit from, the importance of shallow showmanship becomes an old and useless formality. This is a hard skill to develop and not everybody should believe they are capable of this form of scrutiny.


As a great man once said, "There's no such thing as bad words; only bad intentions."

lalallaalal wrote:
Tequila Sunrise wrote:
lalallaalal wrote:
I don't understand how the OP thought it was ok to dig into the host's fridge every session because it they said it was ok that one time. I don't even dig into my parents' fridge without asking every time.

Not to diss on your parents, but this is very unusual. The OP may or may not be guilty of imposing on his hosts, but some hosts really are glad to share their bounty with guests. I think GrenMeera will back me up on this one.

Anecdotally, I've never met a parent who wanted to be asked permission from their own children to help themselves. Unless it's a young kid making a mess, or a high kid with the munchies clearing the whole fridge out. In fact I have friends with parents who would laugh at me if I were to ask permission to grab a drink or whatever. "Since when do you need permission? Haha!" This may be atypical too, but it's not rare IME.

I didn't mean to give the impression that my parents require me to ask for permission to get in the fridge. I was just saying I ask them out of respect and courtesy because I no longer consider it my fridge.

I'm of the opinion that you should always, always ask permission to use anything when in another's house.

That's fine, but again, such an absolutist stance is unusual. Sure, asking permission to crack open an acquaintance's fridge for the first time -- such as your game host's fridge -- is only polite. And, depending on their response, continuing to do so every time may be the polite and correct thing to do.

But I find that people who need that kind of constant politeness, even after months of acquaintance, don't often get to the friend stage. Politeness is a good thing in moderation, but it can also create unnecessary personal barriers. I can't even imagine how put off my parents would be if I asked to crack open their fridges.

Qadira RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, Contributor

gnomersy wrote:
This is reasonable and possible but I've also been considering the possibility that it was simply a case in which the host took a disliking to the player and overreacted to things which are not usually serious issues and the DM rather than be forced to find a new host for the game sided with him for the sake of ease of mind and allowed the OP to be ejected from the group.

*shrug* why do you dislike a person you game with? Usually there is a reason. Rudeness, inability to keep quiet about politics or religion, distrust, poor hygiene, freeloading... etc. It's also possible the host (and the GM seemed to concur) just a jerk.

There were a lot of things the original poster could have done to smooth the road and while he admits those things his attitude seems to be that whatever those things are it isn't enough... it's like trying to rules lawyer social niceties. Sort of like "I was a bit of a jerk, but clearly not enough to have gotten the boot! In order to have gotten kicked out I would have had to drink their beer or possibly kick their dog and I did neither of those things!"

The problem is there is no exact measure. No-one can answer his question without making a raft of assumptions based on the tone of his message and their own prior experience. When you make a post like that, you are asking people to make those assumptions and you take what you get. I've had bad gamer/ guests and the original poster reminds me of them which colors my views. If you've never had a bad guest or you are one, you are far more likely to be generous.

Quote:
Regardless the OP was not a perfect guest, few people are. And some of what he did was quite questionable particularly raiding the host's fridge. But I feel like a lot of the postings have been too far on the critical side then again I'm a very infrequent host as well as a very lax one so that may be part of the reason I feel that way.

I find it strange that you choose to include this in my fairly measured reply to his post. Are you suggesting my post was too far on the critical side? If so I would suggest you should examine your standards.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Tequila Sunrise wrote:
Politeness is a good thing in moderation, but it can also create unnecessary personal barriers.

This is very well put! Not only is this true, but I am a victim of this fairly often.

I have difficulty moving past politeness and being nice to people as my personal social stigmata. Often I wondered why people have a hard time getting close. I later discovered that this is exactly why. I try to be nice, but most people view it as a barrier to REALLY get to know me. People often mistake my kindness as a mask and don't quite believe they see me at all.

This is cultural, as I didn't have this problem when I moved temporarily down south. The history of the northern USA created a different atmosphere where people are uncomfortable with kindness as a defense mechanism. In modern cities, I don't blame them.

Shadow Lodge

Tequila Sunrise wrote:
Politeness is a good thing in moderation, but it can also create unnecessary personal barriers. I can't even imagine how put off my parents would be if I asked to crack open their fridges.

It is not overly polite to say "hey guys is it cool if I grab a glass of milk?" every time that you do so especially when you game infrequently as they do. I would always ask this mainly because they might be relying on that milk to give to their kids, for cooking, or for their cereal. Reducing the supply of something that they have budgeted for sustenance, as opposed to a soda, could force them to make an extra trip to the store. To me milk is a strange beverage to help yourself to - maybe it is to them too.

Also, if these are the things he is aware of there is probably more stuff he isn't aware of that grates on their nerves.

Shadow Lodge

GrenMeera wrote:

Particularly, "swearing during the application process and/or interview" was a false assumption. Here is a section of what Haladir said that brought about my response which is NOT during the application process and/or interview:

Haladir wrote:
or who I overhear cussing while I'm eavesdropping on applicants' conversations
There is a fairly major difference.

I disagree, because of the rest of that sentence, which you left out. Here it is, emphasis mine:

Haladir wrote:
eavesdropping on applicants' conversations with my admin staff

He's not eavesdropping on their cell phone calls in the lobby. He's eavesdropping on the way they interact with people who already work for the company. Conversations with employees in the building at the time of application or interview are part of the application/interview process. This has been the case at every place I have ever worked. I assume it is the case at any place I have interviewed where I did not get the job. I will continue to assume that it is the case at any place I interview in the future. I am aware of neither principle nor practice that would lead me to believe Haladir's stated policy in this matter is, as you declared, "dictatorial and irresponsible." It is practical, and more, it's something that any job applicant should assume is happening anyway. (As evidenced by the fact that it is happening, mind you.)

Edit: I'll note further that I presently work for a call center where every communication a potential employee has with the company, starting from the moment they first call to inquire, is considered by the manager either directly (listening to the recording of the call) or indirectly (asking for the opinion of the person who took the call). Everything an applicant says or does in earshot of the employer is fair game for considering the way they present themselves. You don't have to like it, but that's how it's done.


Dennis Baker wrote:


*shrug* why do you dislike a person you game with? Usually there is a reason. Rudeness, inability to keep quiet about politics or religion, distrust, poor hygiene, freeloading... etc. It's also possible the host (and the GM seemed to concur) just a jerk.

There were a lot of things the original poster could have done to smooth the road and while he admits those things his attitude seems to be that whatever those things are it isn't enough... it's like trying to rules lawyer social niceties. Sort of like "I was a bit of a jerk, but clearly not enough to have gotten the boot! In order to have gotten kicked out I would have had to drink their beer or possibly kick their dog and I did neither of those things!"

The problem is there is no exact measure. No-one can answer his question without making a raft of assumptions based on the tone of his message and their own prior experience. When you make a post like that, you are asking people to make those assumptions and you take what you get. I've had bad gamer/ guests and the original poster reminds me of them which colors my views. If you've never had a bad guest or you are one, you are far more likely to be generous.

I find it strange that you choose to include this in my fairly measured reply to his post....

Not directed at you just a general thing in response to people as a follow up to my earlier thought.

But in response to the first part of your post there have definitely been people who I've disliked just on the basis of things like the tone of their voice sometimes after sitting and talking to them I get over it and realize they're actually decent folks and sometimes that colored opinion leads me to pick out other things I dislike about them until I get obsessive about it. Generally I try to spend the time to actually get to know people before I decide to dislike them but that doesn't always happen and I imagine other people experience the same feeling unless I'm just crazy in which case, whoopwhoopwhoopwhoop!


Tequila Sunrise wrote:

As a great man once said, "There's no such thing as bad words; only bad intentions."

lalallaalal wrote:
Tequila Sunrise wrote:
lalallaalal wrote:
I don't understand how the OP thought it was ok to dig into the host's fridge every session because it they said it was ok that one time. I don't even dig into my parents' fridge without asking every time.

Not to diss on your parents, but this is very unusual. The OP may or may not be guilty of imposing on his hosts, but some hosts really are glad to share their bounty with guests. I think GrenMeera will back me up on this one.

Anecdotally, I've never met a parent who wanted to be asked permission from their own children to help themselves. Unless it's a young kid making a mess, or a high kid with the munchies clearing the whole fridge out. In fact I have friends with parents who would laugh at me if I were to ask permission to grab a drink or whatever. "Since when do you need permission? Haha!" This may be atypical too, but it's not rare IME.

I didn't mean to give the impression that my parents require me to ask for permission to get in the fridge. I was just saying I ask them out of respect and courtesy because I no longer consider it my fridge.

I'm of the opinion that you should always, always ask permission to use anything when in another's house.

That's fine, but again, such an absolutist stance is unusual. Sure, asking permission to crack open an acquaintance's fridge for the first time -- such as your game host's fridge -- is only polite. And, depending on their response, continuing to do so every time may be the polite and correct thing to do.

But I find that people who need that kind of constant politeness, even after months of acquaintance, don't often get to the friend stage. Politeness is a good thing in moderation, but it can also create unnecessary personal barriers. I can't even imagine how put off my parents would be if I asked to crack open their fridges.

I may be misunderstanding you, but are you suggesting that there comes a point where you should be able to dig around in your friend's fridge and grab what you want without asking?

I've had no problem making and keeping very close friends despite my need to be polite. I have a great relationship with my family despite making sure I am not imposing when I am hungry or would like to stay the night. Do I have to? No. I simply do it because I was raised that you don't take something that isn't yours without asking, regardless of who's it is.

Honestly, I really don't understand what the problem is with simply asking the question: is it cool if I eat this leftover spaghetti? I mean, maybe somebody is saving it for lunch or a snack, I don't know, that's why I don't just grab what I want.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
pathar wrote:
eavesdropping on applicants' conversations with my admin staff

You are right, I actually didn't even really register the italicized section and read over it. That was not my intent.

In any case, I've done the hiring process myself for enough years and at a few companies. I can tell you now that it's all extraordinarily circumstantial.

A job where you will be on the phones with customers constantly as per your example? Yes, of course your ability to censor your swearing is extremely important.

One of the guys down in the engineering shop helping out with welding? Honestly I'm a little creeped out by a welder that DOESN'T swear. As Haladir said, it's all in the level of inappropriate behavior.

I'm simply saying that it is not always inappropriate behavior, and it is irresponsible to use personal convictions to sway your decisions when it is not a factor in the workplace. Down in "pit" at my job with the welders and mechanical engineers? Yeah... swearing is NOT a factor there.

I enjoyed Bill Dunn's comment so I will repost:

Bill Dunn wrote:
Just have to watch out for confirmation bias on these sorts of things. A personally held conviction or impression also tends to correlate with perceptions of unprofessional behavior.

.

.

lalallaalal wrote:
I may be misunderstanding you, but are you suggesting that there comes a point where you should be able to dig around in your friend's fridge and grab what you want without asking?

It changes in different parts of the world as I often say it's societal, but yes. For me and for my area, it is quite common for good friends to root around in your fridge.

lalallaalal wrote:
Honestly, I really don't understand what the problem is with simply asking the question: is it cool if I eat this leftover spaghetti?

I would say that there is absolutely no problem with simply asking the question. That is a different topic. I believe what gnomersy is saying (and I do hope he corrects me if I misinterpret this), is that the host is over reacting.

Over reacting doesn't mean that there isn't something rude happening. It's not nice to go through somebody's fridge without permission and I don't believe that's being debated. We're simply saying that it is possible to over react to something that can be trivial in the right circumstances. It's possible for more than one person to create a problem. Both the guest and host are being jerks.


lalallaalal wrote:
I may be misunderstanding you, but are you suggesting that there comes a point where you should be able to dig around in your friend's fridge and grab what you want without asking?

I wouldn't say should, but often, yes. Particularly when it comes to a close friend's or family's fridge.

lalallaalal wrote:
Honestly, I really don't understand what the problem is with simply asking the question: is it cool if I eat this leftover spaghetti? I mean, maybe somebody is saving it for lunch or a snack, I don't know, that's why I don't just grab what I want.

There's nothing inherently wrong with consistent politeness; as I said, it's just that sometimes it becomes a barrier to familiarity. If it's not so for you, more power to you.

At the top of page 3, you said you didn't understand how the OP could think it's okay to just open someone else's fridge to get milk. I'm explaining to you how someone might, quite reasonably, think it's okay. And why using your own absolutist standard to judge others isn't very accurate. Again, I'm not saying the OP was or wasn't out of line; just that the situation isn't cut-and-dry with the info we have.


GrenMeera wrote:
I'm simply saying that it is not always inappropriate behavior, and it is irresponsible to use personal convictions to sway your decisions when it is not a factor in the workplace. Down in "pit" at my job with the welders and mechanical engineers? Yeah... swearing is NOT a factor there.

Even if I weren't just two years away from an engineering degree, this would come from the bottom of my heart...

I wish there were more wise people like you in the world. :)

Qadira RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, Contributor

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Tequila Sunrise wrote:

That's fine, but again, such an absolutist stance is unusual. Sure, asking permission to crack open an acquaintance's fridge for the first time -- such as your game host's fridge -- is only polite. And, depending on their response, continuing to do so every time may be the polite and correct thing to do.

But I find that people who need that kind of constant politeness, even after months of acquaintance, don't often get to the friend stage. Politeness is a good thing in moderation, but it can also create unnecessary personal barriers. I can't even imagine how put off my parents would be if I asked to crack open their fridges.

This is just weird to me, if someone is pulling something from my fridge, they ask me unless I've told them explicitly they have free access and usually not even then. Some of it is politeness, but a lot of it is simply the fact that they don't know what's going on in my fridge. If I drink your milk does that mean you aren't getting cereal in the morning (or god forgive you have to drink your coffee black)? If someone comes from my kitchen drinking or eating they didn't ask for or I hadn't explicitly offered up I'm going to be a little perturbed. No, a glass of milk isn't a 'kick out of the group offense', but if there are a pile of other things its definitely adding fuel to the fire. Drinking it after being asked not to is just ridiculous.

I can't imagine anyone being alienated because someone was 'too polite'. The idea is absurd, right up there with 'too nice'.

Quote:
I wouldn't say should, but often, yes. Particularly when it comes to a close friend's or family's fridge.

What makes you think this was the case here?


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It comes down to what's acceptable in context of who's space it is. That varies widely.

There's not a lot you can do in my house that would offend me, while we sit at a table and roll dice. I might even let you smoke inside, if the weather lets us have the windows open. Not a big deal to me, but I don't have babies.

The parameters of what's OK in a space is defined by the owner, who always has their own personal reasons for why this is OK and that's not.

Some won't blink if you smoke a cigar, or even a joint. Others will kick you out for saying a rude word. Some will be offended if you don't put some bucks in the snack kitty, and others just don't care.

In real tabletop games, there is a social factor, and it matters very much how close you are with the host in question. What's OK in Jeff's house may be totally out of bounds in Eric's house, and vice-versa.

I've played this game for decades, and the constant thing is knowing what the host will accept. Not the GM, not your friends. It's not always their space. You're there and playing because someone took the time to give you a place to play, and they don't want to disrupt their space just to let you spray pee on their toilet without so much as a cursory clean-up.

Have some class, and know that what's OK in your house may not be OK for others.


lalallaalal wrote:

I may be misunderstanding you, but are you suggesting that there comes a point where you should be able to dig around in your friend's fridge and grab what you want without asking?

I've had no problem making and keeping very close friends despite my need to be polite. I have a great relationship with my family despite making sure I am not imposing when I am hungry or would like to stay the night. Do I have to? No. I simply do it because I was raised that you don't take something that isn't yours without asking, regardless of who's it is.

Honestly, I really don't understand what the problem is with simply asking the question: is it cool if I eat this leftover spaghetti? I mean, maybe somebody is saving it for lunch or a snack, I don't know, that's why I don't just grab what I want.

Between family absolutely I mean if one of my brothers or cousins called me and told me he needed a place to sleep this night in my town it's a given that they can sleep over the call is nice because I might not be at home but not giving them a place to stay or free range of the fridge wouldn't even occur to me.

Mind you my fridge is sketchy I don't throw out things as often as I should so I'd have to warn them first but if they were good friends(I don't have many) I wouldn't really care. I wouldn't punch them in the face for asking either but I wouldn't refuse and if they asked two or more weeks in a row I'd probably just tell them that if they find anything special in there I've got first dibs but that they're free to rummage as they please. Sharing is caring and all that jazz yknow?


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Tequila Sunrise wrote:
I wish there were more wise people like you in the world. :)

I collect urine! =^.^=

No, all joking aside, I appreciate the praise (and do not have a pee hobby).

Dennis Baker wrote:
I can't imagine anyone being alienated because someone was 'too polite'. The idea is absurd, right up there with 'too nice'.

Just so you know, this is extremely intercultural. You probably believe it is absurd because it is absurd where you live and with who you know. From first-hand experience, you can be alienated for being too polite or too nice.

A highly regarded expert wrote:
Lots of good stuff...

Eloquently put.


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The only fridge restrictions I've ever had in my home was "Don't take the last of something without checking with the person who bought it" and "if you don't want someone else eating it, put your name clearly on the package." Actually there was another, and it does deal with milk: "*insert specific roommate who drank milk like an un-weaned calf* was responsible for buying any and all milk." Seriously, he'd go through a whole gallon by himself in a day and a half. Maybe the OP drank most of the gallon? CommandoDude, how much milk did you drink?


GrenMeera wrote:


From first-hand experience, you can be alienated for being too polite or too nice.

-Actually yes, but that doesn't seem to be an issue here. How many women have called a man too nice?


Dennis Baker wrote:


I can't imagine anyone being alienated because someone was 'too polite'. The idea is absurd, right up there with 'too nice'.

Quote:
I wouldn't say should, but often, yes. Particularly when it comes to a close friend's or family's fridge.
What makes you think this was the case here?

I've gotten nervous about people being too nice before ... it makes me feel like they're hiding something because usually they're not showing their true feelings. Same thing could happen with politeness it's a good way of showing respect etc but it's also a limitation on understanding who the person really is because they're actively covering it up to avoid offending you.

As for the close/family bit I believe that was in response to lala's statement that he/she didn't believe that there was ever a point at which it would be okay for a person to rummage in your fridge. That point would therefore include friends/family excluding spouses and children of course because it's their fridge as well.

Oh and @ Gren Yeah that was pretty much my thought on the matter not so much that the OP was right simply that the Host's reaction wasn't perfect either. But I'm probably not an ideal representative for acceptable behavior or stinginess since it isn't all that unusual for me to treat a friend to something more expensive than the OP bummed from the Host in a year, in a single night at dinner or just in drinks at a bar.

Qadira RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, Contributor

gnomersy wrote:
I've gotten nervous about people being too nice before ... it makes me feel like they're hiding something because usually they're not showing their true feelings. Same thing could happen with politeness it's a good way of showing respect etc but it's also a limitation on understanding who the person really is because they're actively covering it up to avoid offending you.

There is a pretty big gap between too polite and being insincere. I can't imagine someone being accused of being insincere for asking if he can have a glass of your milk. That borders on paranoia.


Dennis Baker wrote:

There is a pretty big gap between too polite and being insincere. I can't imagine someone being accused of being insincere for asking if he can have a glass of your milk. That borders on paranoia.

If in his interaction with everyone else he never asks then it's still acting outside of his regular behavior and that could be considered insincere particularly if he's only doing it in order to avoid the ramifications of violating the social contract rather than as an attempt to genuinely change himself.

But lets look at another situation, instead of a glass of milk, how about Gary the Gamer who swears like a sailor every day of his life but he plays with Harry the Host who loathes swearing and finds people who do so to be immature and repugnant. Now Gary is a good guy he accepts that Harold's House is governed by his rules and therefore forgoes from swearing, now Harry and Gary aren't really friends they've met each other through a mutual acquaintance and so they only know each other as they see each other in gaming sessions so Harry assumes that Gary is a normal standup guy and invites him out for a beer with their mutual acquaintance of course since Gary isn't in Harry's house any longer he reverts to his normal behavior and resumes his cussing. Harry is understandably shocked and appalled and wonders what the bejesus is going on with Gary.

As you can see by being polite you are hiding aspects of yourself from the other players and in fact most often those aspects are the ones which upset or offend the other players otherwise the courtesy is unnecessary.


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Dennis Baker wrote:
gnomersy wrote:
I've gotten nervous about people being too nice before ... it makes me feel like they're hiding something because usually they're not showing their true feelings. Same thing could happen with politeness it's a good way of showing respect etc but it's also a limitation on understanding who the person really is because they're actively covering it up to avoid offending you.
There is a pretty big gap between too polite and being insincere. I can't imagine someone being accused of being insincere for asking if he can have a glass of your milk. That borders on paranoia.

Exactly. Being "too nice" is not equivalent to being a self-respecting adult with some class and manners.

I hang out with what people would call a "rough crowd,"(long hair, beards, tattoos, an endless array of death metal and horror movie memorabilia, etc) until they actually get to know us. We respect people, especially strangers, until they give us a reason not to, and we are always mannerly. Treat others how you wish to be treated, and all that. But, I wouldn't dream of any of us being considered "too nice," lol.

I agree that if someone comes across as overly trying to be a "goody two shoes," that is very off-putting and raises suspicion.

Cheliax

Eh I suppose I'm in the minority, I wouldn't even mention someone drinking a glass of milk. What's milk cost, maybe $3 a gallon? I'd be embarrassed to complain about someone going into my fridge for it.

As to the pizza thing, meh depends how chummy you are with them. People I've gamed with didn't care too much, people just bring what they can not a big deal.

Course I've had some broke friends so it just doesn't phase me anymore. What would your share of pizza come to, $10 at best a session?


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I get the impression it wasn't the monetary amount, it was the utter lack of respect in taking someone else's food, even after being told not to(also, swearing, etc).


Dennis Baker wrote:
There were a lot of things the original poster could have done to smooth the road and while he admits those things his attitude seems to be that whatever those things are it isn't enough... it's like trying to rules lawyer social niceties. Sort of like "I was a bit of a jerk, but clearly not enough to have gotten the boot! In order to have gotten kicked out I would have had to drink their beer or possibly kick their dog and I did neither of those things!"

This, this this, a thousand times this!

Anyone can kick you out of their house whenever the they want, for whatever reason they choose; it may be that after however many years of hosting RPGs, the hosts have a low rudeness threshold, but that's their right. It's happened to me, and let me tell you, it sucks being kicked out of someone's house, but if your reaction is to start a thread on the interwebz rather than to try to be more polite in the future, it's probably going to happen again sooner rather than later.

I'm rather confused by the last few comments that equate having manners with tricking people into liking me. That's like saying going to a formal event in a suit and tie is lying because when I'm at home I wear jeans and a tee shirt.


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I would say you were a bit unrefined, maybe even boorish. That said, I can't shake the feeling that there is more to this story. I would like to hear more from other people at the table.

Shadow Lodge

Aarontendo wrote:

Eh I suppose I'm in the minority, I wouldn't even mention someone drinking a glass of milk. What's milk cost, maybe $3 a gallon? I'd be embarrassed to complain about someone going into my fridge for it.

As to the pizza thing, meh depends how chummy you are with them. People I've gamed with didn't care too much, people just bring what they can not a big deal.

Course I've had some broke friends so it just doesn't phase me anymore. What would your share of pizza come to, $10 at best a session?

First of all, it may equal an extra trip to the store if they have budgeted for food. Most people do not buy milk to be a beverage for their guests especially when their guests are over the age of ten. Do they have kids? The milk may be for their cereal. One large glass means they have to go to the grocery store prematurely. So it may not be a money issue but an inconvenience issue. From his story he had been drinking their milk for a year, they finally got the courage to tell him to stop and he kept doing it. How much milk do you think he drank over the course of the 2011 year?

Second, it wasn't that he forgot once. He forgot 3 times in a row to bring pizza money and yet he still ate his share. I would float him the first time. The second time I would expect him not to eat it. The third time I would be insulted. If he is broke he could just tell them - that would change the dynamic. Also, I bet he has forgotten other times as well during the previous year that they played.

Also, he brought snacks that only he liked and then once realizing this, instead of finding out what everyone else liked and bringing new snacks he just stopped bringing them altogether. However, I am willing to bet he continued eating the snacks the other members brought.

They may not have been close friends. I have a person in my group I found through a gaming association - we aren't close friends yet. Still, my close friends would never go into my fridge and help themselves to tomorrow's lunch because they aren't jerks and they know that once lunch comes around tomorrow I would have to inconvenience my schedule. This is just common sense.

To them he was a foul mouth moocher.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Maps, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
GrenMeera wrote:
From first-hand experience, you can be alienated for being too polite or too nice.
HarbinNick wrote:
-Actually yes, but that doesn't seem to be an issue here. How many women have called a man too nice?

Actually I've had a LOT of female friends inform me that the reason I'm single is because I'm 'too nice' to women. Go figure... >.>


Laithoron wrote:
Actually I've had a LOT of female friends inform me that the reason I'm single is because I'm 'too nice' to women. Go figure... >.>

Off-topic, but yes, that's VERY true. Women don't respect a pushover. Nice guys finish last with the ladies.


Nice Guys get "friend-zoned" the fastest, since they won't fight back.

/derail


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
A highly regarded expert wrote:
Laithoron wrote:
Actually I've had a LOT of female friends inform me that the reason I'm single is because I'm 'too nice' to women. Go figure... >.>

Off-topic, but yes, that's VERY true. Women don't respect a pushover. Nice guys finish last with the ladies.

Honestly, that really depends on the individual ladies involved.


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If someone promotes "negging," I swear I will reach through the intertubes and slap them silly.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Laithoron wrote:
GrenMeera wrote:
From first-hand experience, you can be alienated for being too polite or too nice.
HarbinNick wrote:
-Actually yes, but that doesn't seem to be an issue here. How many women have called a man too nice?
Actually I've had a LOT of female friends inform me that the reason I'm single is because I'm 'too nice' to women. Go figure... >.>

Oh yeah. Being too nice is just as damaging as being a jerk.

Andoran

6 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
A highly regarded expert wrote:
Laithoron wrote:
Actually I've had a LOT of female friends inform me that the reason I'm single is because I'm 'too nice' to women. Go figure... >.>
Off-topic, but yes, that's VERY true. Women don't respect a pushover. Nice guys finish last with the ladies.

Yes we do. It's important to think of your partners needs. ;)


Nepherti wrote:
The only fridge restrictions I've ever had in my home was "Don't take the last of something without checking with the person who bought it" and "if you don't want someone else eating it, put your name clearly on the package." Actually there was another, and it does deal with milk: "*insert specific roommate who drank milk like an un-weaned calf* was responsible for buying any and all milk." Seriously, he'd go through a whole gallon by himself in a day and a half. Maybe the OP drank most of the gallon? CommandoDude, how much milk did you drink?

Well said!

gnomersy wrote:
Dennis Baker wrote:


I can't imagine anyone being alienated because someone was 'too polite'. The idea is absurd, right up there with 'too nice'.

Quote:
I wouldn't say should, but often, yes. Particularly when it comes to a close friend's or family's fridge.
What makes you think this was the case here?

I've gotten nervous about people being too nice before ... it makes me feel like they're hiding something because usually they're not showing their true feelings. Same thing could happen with politeness it's a good way of showing respect etc but it's also a limitation on understanding who the person really is because they're actively covering it up to avoid offending you.

As for the close/family bit I believe that was in response to lala's statement that he/she didn't believe that there was ever a point at which it would be okay for a person to rummage in your fridge. That point would therefore include friends/family excluding spouses and children of course because it's their fridge as well.

What gnomersy says.

Laithoron wrote:
Actually I've had a LOT of female friends inform me that the reason I'm single is because I'm 'too nice' to women. Go figure... >.>

I have this problem too. :/

Andoran

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Nepherti wrote:
The only fridge restrictions I've ever had in my home was "Don't take the last of something without checking with the person who bought it"

Cool, so I'm not the only one who feels that way. You just don't take a man's last soda without warning him.

Some people don't respect the 'name on the container' rule. It's all about knowing the people you're with. In my shop office last deployment, you didn't leave anything in the fridge you weren't willing to lose, name or not.

I find that opening a beverage and drinking a visible amount wards people off. No one likes backwash.

Shadow Lodge

I think this is going OT. We aren't talking about being overly polite. We are talking about basic human manners. Asking to help yourself to the content of somebody's fridge is not overly polite - it is plain old normal manners.

Andoran

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Hitdice wrote:


I'm rather confused by the last few comments that equate having manners with tricking people into liking me. That's like saying going to a formal event in a suit and tie is lying because when I'm at home I wear jeans and a tee shirt.

You wear WHAT?!

Liar!

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