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Weapons suggestion for Pathfinder online


Pathfinder Online

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I dont know about everyone else but I would think it would be pretty cool if there was a Legacy gear mechanic in Pathfinder Online. By Legacy gear I am refering to the mechanic that Wizards of the Coast used in DnD where you weapon or armor would gain in power as the player did. I don't think it would need to be automatically given to every character, I think it should be an option. That and I think it would be really fun it you could use non-conventional weapon/armor. One of my favorite DnD characters only had lvs in the Commoner NPC class and since he was a farmer and had no money my DM allowed me to use farming equipment as weapons and gear. I used a woodcutting axe, a grain scyth and the lid to a barrel for a shield. Since I didn't have the same power as the other players in the group i was allowed to turn my equipment in to Legacy gear. I really enjoyed having the same gear through the whole campaign and not just switching out for something better. I know in a video game having the same gear all the time could get old but if its gaining in power as you do i think it could off set it, so long as you could control the way it leveled. Oh and on a side note, since so far your planning on having Merchants and Blacksmiths and whatnot be "classes" then I hope that on top of having pre-determined things you can build i would really like to see some awesome choices for tweaking the appearance of your gear, and Im not talking adding some dye here and there I mean a big old list of different hilt options, armor adornments and what not. I HATE looking just like every other player of my class at end game. Its soooooo stupid. Please include stat control for the player too, simple static stat gain is lame.

Goblin Squad Member

1 person marked this as a favorite.

This might be an example of a tabletop thing that doesn't translate well. With the tabletop, having one thing you can level up with you is an awesome convenience, but with PFO having a primarily player driven economy, stuff (weapons, armor, consumables) need to be degrading pretty consistently over time so that there is a constant demand for the production of new items, keeping the flow of money going.

Goblin Squad Member

I think it's fine to have items that level with you, as long as they need "repair" occasionally.

Goblin Squad Member

then repair replaces new... and no demand for new items means ultimately, low demand for materials and less interest in transport of goods. No Nihimon Caravans :D

Goblinworks Founder

I wouldn't say it can't be done in an MMO as it sounds like a similar thing to Lord of the Rings Online and their legendary weapons. I would be all for it if the item still needed repair and could also be looted if the player surrendered or died in a high risk PvP environment. Of course if it were looted it should somehow find its way back to the owner after a period of time.

Goblin Squad Member

If not carefully implemented, this would totally undermine their desire to create an interdependence between adventurers, crafters, and settlements.


If your talking about a weapon type, please give me a cleaver, a pitchfork, a scythe! Please I would love to see a ton of unorthodox weapons. Fulfill a sociopath assassin's dreams in the game! <3

Goblinworks Executive Founder

Gruffling wrote:
then repair replaces new... and no demand for new items means ultimately, low demand for materials and less interest in transport of goods. No Nihimon Caravans :D

I am not sure it couldn't be implemented without damaging a toy economy, though I also am not saying it -should- be implement. Here's why:

Skills and services can be a form of trade; many of the high-status jobs in the world are pure "service" positions. (Attorneys, physicians, engineers, etc.) If the repairs of more potent items required more capable craftspersons, there would be a premium for individuals who could fix a particular prized item, and individuals could trade that service, especially if it took time to repair items (thus limiting the supply of services).

Maintenance can consume almost as many resources as constructions - and sometimes different resources, which would lead to demand for those resources in different areas, which would lead to a need to transport those resources, which would lead to Nihimon caravans as supply and demand for goods rose and fell throughout the area. One could easily imagine an area producing a mass of wood and darkwood (thanks to some enterprising druids) which are exported to a metal-rich area which needs to maintain palisades/mills/feed smithies etc. As the old saw goes, during a gold rush, sell mining picks.

Also, new players will create a demand for new items, as will replacement when repair becomes cost-prohibitive or impossible.

The Parable of the Broken Window

Goblin Squad Member

The Doc CC wrote:
Gruffling wrote:
then repair replaces new... and no demand for new items means ultimately, low demand for materials and less interest in transport of goods. No Nihimon Caravans :D

I am not sure it couldn't be implemented without damaging a toy economy, though I also am not saying it -should- be implement. Here's why:

Skills and services can be a form of trade; many of the high-status jobs in the world are pure "service" positions. (Attorneys, physicians, engineers, etc.) If the repairs of more potent items required more capable craftspersons, there would be a premium for individuals who could fix a particular prized item, and individuals could trade that service, especially if it took time to repair items (thus limiting the supply of services).

Maintenance can consume almost as many resources as constructions - and sometimes different resources, which would lead to demand for those resources in different areas

100% in favor, assuming repair does not bypass the need for materials, or a skilled crafter, I am perfectly in favor of repairs. However in this legacy items concept... what do you put the cost of them at? As the gear gets stronger, the cost of repairs also must rise.

In response to the legacy items idea I do have to point out one huge flaw. It more or less is assuming a set gear power in ratio to level. IE the equivelent of finding a sword that "You must be level 14 to equip". While IMO if a new character, wins the lottery, or somehow winds up incredibly ritch early on, he should be able to use whatever he can find/afford, assuming he is profficiant in the category of weapon. Now some types of weapons/armor should require sets of skills to earn the ability to use, but a dagger is a dagger.

Now one thing to meet the original posters viewpoint I believe should be possible.

Quote:
I HATE looking just like every other player of my class at end game

This I believe should be possible, even if new weapons are needed, what if the appearence of the weapon (shape/size etc...) were a part of crafting, IE the swords shapes were something earnable, findable, and in some cases microtransactioned, for the crafters. IE if you really like the shape and design of a sword crafted for you early on, you could continue to hire that crafter, and have the sword he makes for you at capstone, have the same design with different stats? The wonderful thing of crafting, is that the weapons appearence could be a trait of the crafter. Heck I would almost be in favor of some sort of a template or method to create custom weapon designs... of course that would probably be limited to mix and match different blades, hilts etc... as full design control would lead to the spore syndrome (IE full armys wielding weapons designed to resemble genitalia).

Goblin Squad Member

Good grief I just want a net!

Goblin Squad Member

Gruffling wrote:
This might be an example of a tabletop thing that doesn't translate well. With the tabletop, having one thing you can level up with you is an awesome convenience, but with PFO having a primarily player driven economy, stuff (weapons, armor, consumables) need to be degrading pretty consistently over time so that there is a constant demand for the production of new items, keeping the flow of money going.

This is one of the few things SWTOR did very, very well. You could upgrade your original lightsaber all the way through the game, as well as any other upgradeable item. (Until you reached raid gear but that was just flat out failure on their part to not make raid gear fully deconstructable.)

Upgrading an item was expensive to the tune of it being easier to just replace it though.

I really appreciated this because for me it was worth it to just continue upgrading my original saber. A jedi doesn't just throw aside their lighsaber every time they pass gas.

This carries over into fantasy. Link and the Master Sword. Frodo and Sting , Arthur and Excalibur etc. There are many examples of a hero either starting with or acquiring a weapon or item that follows them through a large part of their story that they would not simply toss aside when something better comes along.

It bothers me that not more MMOs do this. The system is simple. Make item upgrades as expensive as the base items you could replace them with. Make them craftable. BAM! All problems solved.

Goblin Squad Member

2 people marked this as a favorite.

I am 100% against a system that has gear that 'levels up' with the player. Firs off, there is no 'leveling up' in PFO, you gain the ability to do more things over time.

I want a sword to be a sword, and nothing more. This isn't going to be some themepark where you are swapping out items every 2hrs, PFO will be far from 'fast paced'.

The nature of the game needs everything to be balanced. Or the first 4500 people will be the kings of the game. I want equipment to have a set of physical properties, that mirror RL physical properties, and have them behave according to their physical properties. So a heavy sword will pack a harder hit, and not require as sharp of blade to make a wound, but it will be sluggish, while a light weapon will be quick to move but require constant sharpening. Now add 20 more physical attributes and you have the system I want.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

Valkenr wrote:
I am 100% against a system that has gear that 'levels up' with the player. First off, there is no 'leveling up' in PFO, you gain the ability to do more things over time....

First point: You raised this objection to a point I made, and I responded simply, "High level" stands in for whatever metric is used to measure characters who are experienced from others. Saying "high-level" Call of Cthulhu or Vampire make perfect sense even though those games do not have a class-and-level-system at all. I even said I preferred the term "Veteran character" for systems which do not use class-and-level systems, but that would be me using idiosyncratic terms rather than terms others understand across multiple platforms.

Everyone understands exactly what he/she means, technical inaccuracy notwithstanding. But here you go: "What if there was a subset of merit badges which explored the idea of progressing with an ancestral/legendary weapon, a common trope in fantasy fiction and gaming, parallel to the "class-and-level" adapted Archetype ones?"

Second point: Your argument comes down to stating a list of desires without much of an argument, then expecting agreement. So, yes, everything needs to be balanced and...? "I want" is not an argument. It's a demand - and should not be found convincing by those who respond, "I don't want."

Third point: You demand it mirror your perceived ideas of how real-world weapons work. I'm not sure how much you know about actual use of weapons, wound dynamics, and mechanisms of injury, and will neither assume your expertise nor ignorance. However, lay persons playing amateur ER doc and pathologist are usually grossly unable to understand the actual dynamics of injury. Likewise, lay persons who read novels usually have a very poor understanding of the actual means by which such weapons were wielded, why they were used, and so on. Realistic weapon, armor, and wound properties (the three are inexorably linked) would suspend disbelief fast. "Realistic" ones would be nonsense coupled with a limiting factor on style and fun in order to please those who know less than they think.

Fourth point: If real world or "real world" dynamics are used for all weapons, would that not lead to just boring, dull use of the same arms over and over, based on those dynamics?

Fifth point: What you want pretty clearly works against the world of Golarion's known characteristics. As has been stated before, the novels, PFRPG, and PFO are supposed to be "windows" which offer glimpses at a coherent intellectual property. In that property, not all arms and armor are equal, and magic is used to create better weapons and armor, in both of the already established windows.

Sixth point: Adopting your system would remove a large part of a subsection of the economy - the magical-crafting economy.

Seventh (and most important) point: Please, do not take this as, "You're wrong." Your viewpoint may well be a better idea. Your idea may be popular and worth implementing. But that wasn't a great way to convince anyone, nor really a great answer to the OP's question.

TL:DR Insistent terminology is not an argument. The OP's question could be raised within GW's terms and still be a valid question. The proposed idea is inconsistent with the intellectual property behind the game. "I want," is not an argument, as the obvious reply is, "I do not want."

Silver Crusade Goblinworks Executive Founder

Gruffling wrote:
then repair replaces new... and no demand for new items means ultimately, low demand for materials and less interest in transport of goods. No Nihimon Caravans :D

A valid concern. Since I'm a sentimental SOB, and like the idea of hanging on to things for the long haul, I'll paraphrase a few ideas I've read here that would address it.

So long as coin, time and resources required to repair/upgrade >= new item, then no problem.

Goblin Squad Member

The Doc CC wrote:


First point: You raised this objection to a point I made, and I responded simply, "High level" stands in for whatever metric is used to measure characters who are experienced from others. Saying "high-level" Call of Cthulhu or Vampire make perfect sense even though those games do not have a class-and-level-system at all. I even said I preferred the term "Veteran character" for systems which do not use class-and-level systems, but that would be me using idiosyncratic terms rather than terms others understand across multiple platforms.

Well there's the issue however, there's about 15 different ways to measure that metric. Total merit badges... well someone could become a 1/1/1/1/1/1/1/1/1/1/1/1, in roughly the time it takes a pure class to gain 5 merit badges most likely, but it also can't be ignored that a 5/5 does have more versatility and experience than a straight 5.

I think the biggest thing though, is reffering to it as by level or anything, is assuming either.
1. Level locked gear
2. A wealth by level expectancy.

A level 1, with good business sense, a good market plan etc... could be making 1000 coin a day, (numbers obviously hypothetical). An experienced combat master who has been playing 5x longer and is drastically higher level but has little sense for money, may make half that and burn 75% of what he makes on consumables. As a result of this, the guy with the business sense, SHOULD have higher stronger gear, and not have an arbitrary wall saying he's too low level for his gear to be improved. Now odds are if they were in a fight, the experienced guy would likely still win, as his player skill, and his skills (trained), should put him in a better position to overcome the gear advantage.

Thus my concept, I am 100% in favor of gear that can be upgraded assuming a cost of materials and labor of a crafter to do so, but I think that gear should be upgradable, when you have the resources and a crafter to do it. Rather than attempting to define what level that capability should be unlocked.

Goblin Squad Member

Ryghamoc wrote:
If your talking about a weapon type, please give me a cleaver, a pitchfork, a scythe! Please I would love to see a ton of unorthodox weapons. Fulfill a sociopath assassin's dreams in the game! <3

This post caught my eye. I think I'll just leave you a little note.

Goblin Squad Member

Valkenr wrote:
I am 100% against a system that has gear that 'levels up' with the player. Firs off, there is no 'leveling up' in PFO, you gain the ability to do more things over time.

You also gain the ability to do things better. I personally asked about things like increasing spell level and spell damage as players "don't level up", and got the answer that these things will in fact increase as the character grows.

They're certainly going for a different system, but from the concrete answers they've given so far, I think them saying there will be no levels really just amounts to playing antics with semantics.

So if spells will increase in damage, and we know they will, as your character non-levels up, then why not weapons?

Goblin Squad Member

Blaeringr wrote:
Valkenr wrote:
I am 100% against a system that has gear that 'levels up' with the player. Firs off, there is no 'leveling up' in PFO, you gain the ability to do more things over time.

You also gain the ability to do things better. I personally asked about things like increasing spell level and spell damage as players "don't level up", and got the answer that these things will in fact increase as the character grows.

They're certainly going for a different system, but from the concrete answers they've given so far, I think them saying there will be no levels really just amounts to playing antics with semantics.

So if spells will increase in damage, and we know they will, as your character non-levels up, then why not weapons?

The way I see it, weapon damage, accuracy etc... Should be trainable skills. The weapon itself should also be a boost to that damage etc... for both mellees and casters. (I think for casters and mellees to be on even terms, casters will need to be comparably dependant on weapons as their mellee counterparts, staffs/wands/holy symbols, ritual daggers etc... all should effect a magic attack in the same way a sword effects a mellee strike).

The bottom line is, the actual weapon, is a product of money/resources. I can't see a sane reason why I should be able to wield my sword perfectly, then buy a better sword, and be told "you can't use this yet".

IMO damage should be a combination of your trained skills, and your purchased equipment. I can't see what good limiting what you can purchase to your skills, unless it is a completely different weapon type. My wallet and ability to find a skilled enough blacksmith should be the only hinderence to upgrade from a +1 rapier to a +3 rapier. Though I am perfectly fine with needing to train before I can use a Masterwork Greatsword, or a regular mace.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

@ Blaeringr - That's a wonderful turn of phrase; saying you won't level is playing antics with semantics. Unless and until a new vocab is defined, folks are still going to call it "leveling up."

@ Onishi - While common in MMOs, it's a non-factor in the PFRPG. The limiting factors are 1) the price to purchase or create a new weapon rise via a quadratic equation, making 2) very powerful items very hard to purchase and the market for them very limited. Furthermore, 3) you just might not find it at market, ever. 4) The seller may betray you, since a fortune is at stake. 5) And a very weak character holding a world-changing weapon may find less scrupulous NPCs (or PCs!) or monsters quite happy to take it from him by force or steal it in the night. Finally, 6) creating legendary items requires similarly legendary individuals and take an amount of time in direct proportion to their cost, meaning the construction time also goes up via a quadratic equation. Do you think methods like this would be sufficient to push items toward higher tier characters while not forbidding anyone from wielding anything they can get? If not, what would you suggest? We had discussed this earlier to a limited extent.

I could very well imagine a situation where a craftsperson finishes a great work, and someone plots to intercept the delivery of the priceless item.

I'd also like for characters to get many of their arms and armor the old fashioned way - by smacking around the big ugly monsters who are guarding them. It's a tried and true method, proven since 1974. If the ability to produce them cannot keep up with demand, then there's a reason for adventurers to take their chances in nasty...prisons...say...full of monsters like...wyrms.

Anyone care to suggest a name for that kind of game?

Goblin Squad Member

The Doc CC wrote:


@ Onishi - While common in MMOs, it's a non-factor in the PFRPG. The limiting factors are 1) the price to purchase or create a new weapon rise via a quadratic equation, making 2) very powerful items very hard to purchase and the market for them very limited. Furthermore, 3) you just might not find it at market, ever. 4) The seller may betray you, since a fortune is at stake. 5) And a very weak character holding a world-changing weapon may find less scrupulous NPCs (or PCs!) or monsters quite happy to take it from him by force or steal it in the night. Finally, 6) creating legendary items requires similarly legendary individuals and take an amount of time in direct proportion to their cost, meaning the construction time also goes up via a quadratic equation. Do you think methods like this would be sufficient to push items toward higher tier characters while not forbidding anyone from wielding anything they can get? If not, what would you suggest? We had discussed this earlier to a limited extent.

Absolutely, I am fully in favor of the difficulties, risks etc... being high, the practicality etc... of the best weapon in the hands of someone who barely can swing a sword. What I oppose is the concept of a weapon in which the wielder cannot have upgraded until he gains a certain level etc... Arbitrary nonsense like WoW's "weapon requires level 45", where all of a sudden a character instantaniously goes from Unable to equip weapon, to masterfully weilding the weapon in the time of a level up animation. Skill training I don't oppose the idea of fairly quickly learning to equip a category of weapon, but taking a long time to master that category of weapon. IE no instantanious switch from "I don't know how to hold it", to OK I'm level 15 now I can finally apply my 200 weapon skill to the level 15 weapon that I couldn't even hold yesterday".

I have 0 problem with the cost being prohibitively high, I expect there to be crafters, loan sharks, market masters etc... Of whom if played right SHOULD have far more money, and better connections to crafters etc... then a combat class with comperable amounts of skills, and they should be capable of obtaining more expensive equipment then a fighter of comperable skills, and I do not think there should be an invisible barrier preventing them from equiping and benefiting from these weapons. Yes they will be nowhere near as dangerous as they would be if say they instead gave the weapons to a pure combatant and had that combatant guard them.

Personally I think basic equipping of an item should be possible no matter what, perhaps it should have something similar to the non-proficient penalty that exists in PFRPG, Even your basic commoner can hold a sword and swing it wildly, and maybe get a hit once in a while. His odds of actually hurting a trained combatant are horrible, but there's no magical barrier preventing him from trying.

Goblin Squad Member

Andius wrote:


This is one of the few things SWTOR did very, very well. You could upgrade your original lightsaber all the way through the game, as well as any other upgradeable item. (Until you reached raid gear but that was just flat out failure on their part to not make raid gear fully deconstructable.)

Upgrading an item was expensive to the tune of it being easier to just replace it though.

Well I could see that working with a Legacy weapon system that is a throw back to 3.5. Also depending on how crafting works it might be able to disenchant a particular awesome looking weapon and recreate the magical enchantments it has. Its not an impossible thing but would to see how magic items work as well as crafting.

Personally I hope the Dwarven Waraxe is there.

Goblin Squad Member

Valkenr wrote:

I am 100% against a system that has gear that 'levels up' with the player. Firs off, there is no 'leveling up' in PFO, you gain the ability to do more things over time.

I want a sword to be a sword, and nothing more. This isn't going to be some themepark where you are swapping out items every 2hrs, PFO will be far from 'fast paced'.

The nature of the game needs everything to be balanced. Or the first 4500 people will be the kings of the game. I want equipment to have a set of physical properties, that mirror RL physical properties, and have them behave according to their physical properties. So a heavy sword will pack a harder hit, and not require as sharp of blade to make a wound, but it will be sluggish, while a light weapon will be quick to move but require constant sharpening. Now add 20 more physical attributes and you have the system I want.

I don't support weapon level ups either but a modification/upgrade system is neither a level up system, nor incompatible with what you just suggested.

You could easily make modifications do things like "+5% damage, -5% attack speed" if that is the system you want or "+5 damage, requires weapon mastery merit badge" if that is the system you want.

I really don't see a downside to a modification system. It can be adapted to work alongside or replace any traditional gear system.

Goblin Squad Member

The Doc CC wrote:
@ Blaeringr - That's a wonderful turn of phrase; saying you won't level is playing antics with semantics. Unless and until a new vocab is defined, folks are still going to call it "leveling up."

I think I'm going to go with "non-levelling" your character up. Level 20 characters will now be referred to as "20i" characters :) (i = imaginary number)

Goblin Squad Member

@Andius,

Mods are fine, and my idea takes mods and splits them in two.

1. Weapon Physical properties/pieces

2. Magically Granted Properties.

I would be fine if a weapon was a collection of parts with no 'base' item, so you can replace a blade or hilt, but not take an Iron sword and run all the way through the game.


As a system for every weapon or item, no thanks.

My one exception to the rule is always sentient weapons.

Some sentient weapons can work against you and would naturally start out as very weak, or even as a mundane weapon if they chose not to reveal their true nature. As you prove your worth, they slowly add additional power.

Over time a symbiotic relationship forms. As you become more familiar with not only the weapon, but the being whom now shares possession, it adapts to your fighting style and offers you sharper reflexes, more strength and so on. In return it gains a portion of the power that you earn together.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

Blaeringr wrote:
The Doc CC wrote:
@ Blaeringr - That's a wonderful turn of phrase; saying you won't level is playing antics with semantics. Unless and until a new vocab is defined, folks are still going to call it "leveling up."
I think I'm going to go with "non-levelling" your character up. Level 20 characters will now be referred to as "20i" characters :) (i = imaginary number)

Now all you need is for the devs to bring in negative levels from PFRPG.

"Oh my God, that wight hit me for four negative levels!"
"Nah, it's cool, bro. Just take the root."

@ Onishi - That's where I thought you were going, and we're pretty much on the same page. I'll set 'em up, you knock 'em down.

Goblin Squad Member

If every player has a legacy sword, that only requires modifications or enhancements... what do the sword-makers make? Or Axe-makers, etc. Think of this on scale with 10k players. By simply allowing for an upgrade only path, you've significantly dented a whole sector of the economy, even if its SW:TOR like and its 'easier' to get a new weapon.

For this reason alone, I'm not overly in favor of legacy items for everyone, or even in favor of infinite repairs. I'd rather see extremely rare and unmodifiable legacy items, so that if the weapon no longer suites the character's needs, maybe they move on, sell it, or stash it in their hidey hole and look at it fondly for months (that 3rd option is my personal inclination... call it virtual hoarding disorder :P ). If the ubiquity of these items is kept to an absolute minimum, and acquired only through significant accomplishment, and can be out classed the longer someone owns it, then I can see it working WITH the economy, rather than against it. Of course, those conditions in place pretty much eliminate the basics of the Legacy weapon concept.

Goblin Squad Member

Gruffling wrote:
If every player has a legacy sword, that only requires modifications or enhancements... what do the sword-makers make? Or Axe-makers, etc. Think of this on scale with 10k players. By simply allowing for an upgrade only path, you've significantly dented a whole sector of the economy, even if its SW:TOR like and its 'easier' to get a new weapon.

Actually I disagree that it has to be that way. At least under 1 condition. Repairing and upgrading any weapon needs to cost, in materials, and needs to be done by someone with the appropriate crafting skill at the same level that would be needed to make it. A sword is damaged to 50%, you'll need half the materials that are required to make it, AND you'll need someone who knows how to craft it (Who will most likely have a standard commision charge). Even then, it's new maximum HP drops by 10% of the repaired amount, (IE a weapon with say 1000 HP, drops to 500, is repaired, it's new max HP is 950)

The same for upgrades, just for hypothetical purposes, a +2 weapon takes 100 MaterialX, a +2 weapon takes 1000 materialX. A crafter could change a +1 to a +2 for 925 MaterialX.

No portion of the market is undercut in this situation, Roughly the same amount of harvested materials need to be consumed, the crafters skills are still needed, I don't see anything being cut out of the economy.

If it uses the themepark, 100 gold to an NPC = Repair
or money = upgrade, you are absolutely right

Goblin Squad Member

So here are some of my concerns with this mechanic...

1) It has the potential to make gear too powerfull and the game too gear-centric. I believe one of the goals of PFO is to get away from the typical "gear treadmill" that we see in most PvE games and also reduce the difference in scale of power between low level players and higher level players.

"Legacy" gear that levels as you do is just another permutation of a type of "gear treadmill". It also has the potential to increase the scale of power between low level characters and high level characters....as now you have to worry not just about ways to allow characters to advance thier native abilities over x number of levels without making them too powerfull but ALSO for thier gear to advance over X number of levels, again without making the player too powefull...and of course this has the potential of an adititive effect on the players overall power.

2) It has the potential to diminish the amount of gear in the player economy as a whole. As repairing "legacy" gear strikes me as a fundementaly different mechanic as creation of new gear.

In short, I don't think it's a very good fit for the type of game PFO is seeking to be.... and has the potential to introduce some real problems to the game, if implimentation wasn't tightly planned and monitored.

I could see it maybe working in a limited fashion, but not the type of thing I would personaly like to see for handling gear in general in the game.

Silver Crusade Goblin Squad Member

Having played SWG (player run economy, with item decay), legendary weapons still existed. On my server (Intrepid), there was a *very* feared weapon, known simple as "The Knife". It only came out on rare occasions, and you knew when it did. That knife was well known, feared for its lethality, and would ultimately break and be no more.

Items don't need to be huge, or glowing, or indestructible to become legends. They become legends based on what is done with them.

Goblin Squad Member

Ryan has been pretty clear that there will be epic/legendary gear, and that it will require a bit of farming dungeon bosses, etc. to acquire/craft. I don't think we're anywhere close to completely abandoning the gear treadmill, but I think we're definitely going to see it considerably flattened, so that there's no expectation that you're going to completely re-gear yourself every few levels.

Goblin Squad Member

Nihimon wrote:
Ryan has been pretty clear that there will be epic/legendary gear, and that it will require a bit of farming dungeon bosses, etc. to acquire/craft. I don't think we're anywhere close to completely abandoning the gear treadmill, but I think we're definitely going to see it considerably flattened, so that there's no expectation that you're going to completely re-gear yourself every few levels.

Once can be too much depending on your roleplay. I would like to see people with the heirloom sword inherited from their grandfather that they upgrade rather than ever replace.

As long as it is similarly expensive and involves crafters just as heavily as entirely replacing the gear it isn't a broken mechanic, so why not have it?

It is one of those features that is really going to appeal to a lot of roleplayers, plus people who really like the way their low-level simple looking non-gaudy armor appears.

Goblin Squad Member

Andius wrote:
I would like to see people with the heirloom sword inherited from their grandfather that they upgrade rather than ever replace.

I agree 100%. This is the same reason I have for not wanting there to be "level limits" (or their equivalents) on gear. I'm fine with there being a level limit that keeps me from being as effective as possible with a particular item, but I should still be able to use it at reduced effectiveness.

Goblin Squad Member

Nihimon wrote:
Andius wrote:
I would like to see people with the heirloom sword inherited from their grandfather that they upgrade rather than ever replace.
I agree 100%. This is the same reason I have for not wanting there to be "level limits" (or their equivalents) on gear. I'm fine with there being a level limit that keeps me from being as effective as possible with a particular item, but I should still be able to use it at reduced effectiveness.

I don't even agree with that. You shouldn't have to take a penalty in effectiveness to use the items you want to use if there are reasonable systems that will balance that out.

The idea of certain levels being required to use certain gear and things like that are an artificial system setup because they work well in games. In reality/non-game fantasy there is no reason your renowned adventuring ancestor can't pass down to you a weapon as effective as anything else out there.

In a game reasons like the economy, and the gear rating hurdles that are generally set up for us to jump make this less effective. But if we go with a modification/upgrade system I don't see why we can't make modifications/upgrades that are just as hard or harder to get as top level weapons, and make it so that using those modifications we can make our heirloom sword as effective as the top rated weapons in the game.

We do the same/more work, we should be entitled to at least the same reward.

Goblin Squad Member

@Andius, in PFO the "levels" won't be "levels", they'll be Skill Ranks. It makes perfect sense to me that I will be able to use an item more effectively once I've learned how to use it properly.

I think there's also room for special actions that are related to weapon use that are unlocked at certain Skill Ranks.

Goblin Squad Member

Nihimon wrote:

@Andius, in PFO the "levels" won't be "levels", they'll be Skill Ranks. It makes perfect sense to me that I will be able to use an item more effectively once I've learned how to use it properly.

I think there's also room for special actions that are related to weapon use that are unlocked at certain Skill Ranks.

I am aware of that but Ryan has stated in a separate topic that there will be skill/merit badge requirements to use certain pieces of gear.

It is easier to say higher level weapons than "weapons that require more difficult to obtain skill and merit badges."

Goblin Squad Member

Yeah, I would hope Ryan would be persuaded that it's okay for me to use that item when I'm under-skilled but that I'll use it less effectively. That just seems so much better to me than not even being able to equip it.

Yes, I might not be able to use a Wizard's Staff as a Wizard's Staff but I ought to be able to use it as a club!

Goblin Squad Member

Nihimon wrote:

Yeah, I would hope Ryan would be persuaded that it's okay for me to use that item when I'm under-skilled but that I'll use it less effectively. That just seems so much better to me than not even being able to equip it.

Yes, I might not be able to use a Wizard's Staff as a Wizard's Staff but I ought to be able to use it as a club!

SWG had this system, you could equip a powerhammer at basic brawler, but you had a serious hit to accuracy, Once you made it through the 2hand tree of brawler and picked up novice swordsman, you could use a powerhammer effectivly, though it was not the best item to use. Depending on the quality of materials readily available, you could see a basic 2h sword with higher dps, until a perfect spawn of the right metal came.

I would find it hilarious if there was a weapon akin to a lightsaber, which required serious training to not cut your legs off. Then you can see all the people that don't pay attention to warnings pulling out the weapon, trying to kill a boar, then end up killing them selves.

I'm not in support of a system that rewards players with weapons that are useful. Again I like the swg system, where people are awarded with powerful weapon part replacements or schematics. For example if you wanted a good blade piece for your sword, you would go hunt rancor until a good tooth dropped, and if you wanted a good heavy melee weapon, you would hunt Acklay until a good bone dropped. I want the 'equipment' reward void to be filled with crafting material, or substitute components.

I'm not really for a system that gives equipment based on a RP background of the character. You can't just give people things because it is part of their background(and people will find a way to max the system), so a player would have to craft it new and say it was something that was handed down to them, with to me breaks immersion. This is partly why I would like a system where you start out as a child, and by the time you are ready to join the general population competitively you would be an adult. Players don't create a background, they live one and the choices made in the adolescence period impact how their character joins the world(alignment/profession/etc.), could be the NPE Ryan wants. But I'm guessing a lot of RP'ers want to build intricately structured backgrounds, I know I saw plenty of them in COH.

Goblin Squad Member

Valkenr wrote:
I'm not really for a system that gives equipment based on a RP background of the character. You can't just give people things because it is part of their background(and people will find a way to max the system)...

I could see a character creation system that includes picking perks. An heirloom weapon could just cost a certain number of perk points. Another player might start with militia experience (and a few merit badges?). Players might build part of their background that way.

Yes, people would want to game it. There would need to be some rules that make it difficult or impossible to spam items with alts. Like, your granddad's sword cannot be traded or dropped. It could be stored in a building. If you die with it in your loot bag (unequipped), it will be lost if someone loots your body...

If there was a perk system in character development, though, I'd like the choice to "choose later". Some decisions are best made once I get into the game and see what is useful. Maybe granddad passes on after I've been playing a couple months.

Goblin Squad Member

Valkenr wrote:
I'm not really for a system that gives equipment based on a RP background of the character. You can't just give people things because it is part of their background(and people will find a way to max the system), so a player would have to craft it new and say it was something that was handed down to them, with to me breaks immersion. This is partly why I would like a system where you start out as a child, and by the time you are ready to join...

I think the best way to do this would be via a tutorial. Think Fable 1 or 2. You run around and do stuff for a kid while learning the game for awhile. I wouldn't want to see a significant portion of the game spent as a child because.... this is an open world PVP game and I don't want to be killing children. By the time you get out of the 100% guard zone you should have to be an adult.

I could easily see a choice in the tutorial where you choose between a large amount or starter gold, a complete set of medium quality starter gear, a horse or riding dog, or an heirloom weapon of some sorts. You could even just give a choice like this on character creation.

Really though I don't see a problem with allowing every character to create a customizable starting weapon at the start of the game. If they are cheaper to replace than upgrade, then most people will just throw them out. The people who want to assign some kind of backstory like "This is my father's blade that became mine when he fell defending us from a bandit raide" (cliche I know.) and keep upgrading the weapon throughout their character's progression can still do that.

It's like in TOR. The best way to upgrade a piece of gear was find another piece of upgrade-able gear, remove all its mods, and place them in the original one. However doing that raised the requirements to use the original item to that of the new one, and it cost money to remove the mods, so most people (especially the min-maxers) didn't do it. It was only people who really cared about the roleplay of sticking with one lightsaber, or really like the appearance of the low level modifiable robes.

Also let me throw one thing out there. Beyond roleplay there is one other practical implication of such a system. Uniforms. Uniforms not only help companies/kingdoms look awesome on group events, but are majorly useful in massive battles. If you all wear similarly colored/styled uniforms it's easier to quickly distinguish whether those people surrounding you are friend or foe.

Remember this isn't WoW. The factions aren't set and you sometimes might end up fighting people who aren't already marked as hostile.

If you have a system where people can modify their armor as they see fit then people with different armor properties customized to their build can have the same appearance as their allies. There will likely be some visual differences between chainmail and platemail and a robe but at least you can make it so one guy isn't wearing smoothed polished silvery plate with a green cloak while another is wearing black spiky plate with a red cape.

Goblin Squad Member

I despise tutorials that force my character into a particular back story. I'd much rather see a system like Urman referenced, where I could spend a set number of points building up my character's back story, buying advantages and disadvantages a la GURPS.

Goblin Squad Member

Well really like I said, just giving everyone a customizable weapon at start isn't such a bad thing.

In TOR the first lightsaber you get is modifiable. You still see a lot of lightsabers getting sold, lightsaber mods getting sold, and very few people running that original lightsaber even though IMO it looks pretty decent.

People are talking about it like it's a huge advantage. It really isn't... at all... depending on how you make the system work.

If you do this no explanation is required beyond it's the weapon you start your journey with. You can decide if it is a precious heirloom, attached to your character's journey, or just a piece of trash you picked up at a blacksmith shop.

Goblin Squad Member

I'm ok with the concept of repairing a favorite weapon and maybe stripping out old enchantments to get better enchantments cast on it, etc.

If the concept of a legacy or heirloom weapon includes it changing shape or form, count me out. If Granddad left me a longsword, and an armorer beats it into a mace or a broadsword, then it is no longer the weapon Granddad left me. Change the hilt, the scabbard, ok. Decorate the blade with glyphs and silver chasing, fine. But the weapon type should be fixed.

And yes, some weapon types will need training to get full benefits. Think of drilling with polearms or pikes, or elite Spanish shortswordmen practicing shield and sword techniques to defeat pikemen.

Goblin Squad Member

Urman wrote:

I'm ok with the concept of repairing a favorite weapon and maybe stripping out old enchantments to get better enchantments cast on it, etc.

If the concept of a legacy or heirloom weapon includes it changing shape or form, count me out. If Granddad left me a longsword, and an armorer beats it into a mace or a broadsword, then it is no longer the weapon Granddad left me. Change the hilt, the scabbard, ok. Decorate the blade with glyphs and silver chasing, fine. But the weapon type should be fixed.

And yes, some weapon types will need training to get full benefits. Think of drilling with polearms or pikes, or elite Spanish shortswordmen practicing shield and sword techniques to defeat pikemen.

I agree about type being set, I do think the majority of the power in a weapon should come from the enhancements etc... I also agree though, if it is scrapped into a different shape to be a different weapon, it no longer is the same thing.

Goblin Squad Member

I remember finding a knife in the barn on the ranch where I grew up. It was very old, and had obviously been sharpened an unimaginable number of times. The width of the blade at the hilt was significantly wider than that in the body of the blade, where uncounted sharpenings had apparently worn away almost half of the blade.

Granted, there's a possibility that the blade was originally in the same proportions I found it, but it didn't look that way. At any rate, that experience always makes me doubt myself when I start thinking I should push for weapons to last forever. I really do think there is some value in making them permanently decay through use, in a way that's not reparable.

Goblin Squad Member

@Nihimon, I generally like the idea up-thread about repairs removing damage but removing some small amount of the item's strength. With the caveat that magicked items accumulate damage slower than non-magicked weapons. It also should take a lot more damage to break a magicked item, if weapons and armor can be outright broken in combat.

Goblin Squad Member

@Urman, I think that's a perfectly acceptable position :)

Goblin Squad Member

@Nihimon, not to argue your point about what weapons should be like in the online game, but the real life example is hardly one that was beyond repair. Scrap metal can be added to blades. In real life it's not really practical, more sense in just creating something new, but in a fantasy setting where it's cheaper than the whole enchantment process, adding on some scrap metal certainly makes more sense.

Your DM may argue that the new material doesn't gain the enchantment, or maybe even break it, but there are precedents, at least in D&D rules (I'm drawing on that as I'm not hugely familiar with Pathfinder), like repairing golems.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

Blaeringr wrote:
Scrap metal can be added to blades.

So, remove the pommel handle, and hilt, add some 'scrap metal' to the blade, hammer it back into a blade shape, then put it back through heat treatment and make the parts you took off fit again.

There's a fine line between adding metal to an existing blade and using an existing blade as scrap.

Goblin Squad Member

Urman wrote:

I'm ok with the concept of repairing a favorite weapon and maybe stripping out old enchantments to get better enchantments cast on it, etc.

If the concept of a legacy or heirloom weapon includes it changing shape or form, count me out. If Granddad left me a longsword, and an armorer beats it into a mace or a broadsword, then it is no longer the weapon Granddad left me. Change the hilt, the scabbard, ok. Decorate the blade with glyphs and silver chasing, fine. But the weapon type should be fixed.

And yes, some weapon types will need training to get full benefits. Think of drilling with polearms or pikes, or elite Spanish shortswordmen practicing shield and sword techniques to defeat pikemen.

I'm not really suggesting shape changes. I think that if they give us modifiable starter weapons or ones that we earn partway through that we should have some choice of what we get. At least in choosing whether its a dagger, a bastard sword, or a halberd but maybe even in some of the finer details.

That customization shouldn't be linked to an action in game but rather to a character create type choice where it allows you to pick your weapon's features just like you picked your character's.

So you go through, pick the weapon type. Maybe the hilt and blade style and the color of the materials used. Then you are presented with the weapon.

After that you would add modifications/upgrades/enchantments which would be purely stat based.

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