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Gestalt?


Rules Questions


what is it and well any thing else this Nob question needs to be answered. Feel silly even asking but I have seen a few post asking for help with it and I am not sure what they are doing so here I am.

will


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Gestalt is a method by which a character gains all the abilities of 2 class as he levels up. It was presented in WotC's Unearthed Arcana and the details can be read here.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/gestaltCharacters.htm


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Pretty much.

You take two classes and combine the features of both at any given level. Where they overlap, take the best.

Gestalt characters are a little more powerful and a lot more versatile than normal characters. They are a great option for when you have a smaller-than-normal party.

Paizo Employee Webstore Gninja Minion

Moved thread.


--=wow okay let me get this straight it is a lot ike the old 2ed ad&d multiclassing were the players are a level 5 gunslinger/alchemist vs. the level 3 gunslinger and level 2 alchemist I have gotten use to in 3 ed D&D, 3.5 D&D and, Pathfinders.

Will


Not exactly. When you gain a level, you gain all the things of two classes. A level 5 gestalt character is a Fighter 5 / Sorcerer 5, a Magus 5 / Ranger 5, etc. You gain all the special features of both classes, and the better TS, HD and similar of both.
The times I have used Gestalt (always in 3.5) we do not allowed multiclass.. too much headache.


lol I can't even rape my mind around a multiclassed gestalt character.

Will


To expand on what Alaryth said, I'll give an example of what happens when you use Gestalt.

At level one a Gestalt Barbarian/Wizard would have: all the skills of both classes as class skills, d12 Hit Dice, full base attack bonus, Fast Movement, Rage, Scribe Scroll, Arcane Bond, Cantrips, a School Specialization, +2 Fort, +0 Ref, +2 Will.

At level two the Barbarian/Wizard gains Uncanny Dodge and a Rage Power. His BAB goes up to +2, and his Fort and Will both go up to +3.

Multiclassing in Gestalt is something that took me a bit to figure out, but it is possible and simple(I think).


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Thorin2011 wrote:

--=wow okay let me get this straight it is a lot ike the old 2ed ad&d multiclassing were the players are a level 5 gunslinger/alchemist vs. the level 3 gunslinger and level 2 alchemist I have gotten use to in 3 ed D&D, 3.5 D&D and, Pathfinders.

Will

Pretty much, yes. It's not standard but some groups use it.


Okay that makes Feats even more valuable, and harder to choose. I have a Level 10 Gunslinger 5 / Alchemist 5. I started to think what he would look like as a Gestalt level 5 and realized that I wound have to thin out the already hard pick feats for this character.

Thus, lots of help posts for the Gestalts that prompted this thread.

Will


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Gunslinger 5 / Alchemist 5 is a level 10 character, with 10 hit dice etc.
Gunslinger|Alchemist 5 is a 5th level character with 5 hit dice.

Generally a gestalt PC can handle threats 1 CR higher than normal. They have more options, but no more actions.


It's an interesting option. It's rather simple actually. People just try to make it more than it is. You just combine two classes and take the better of the two for each individual attributee. Fighter/wizard will take a fighters BAB and a wizards Will save for example.


yay, I got that.

the point is as a lvl 10 you have 5 feats at lest
at lvl 5 you have 3 feats at lest

With so many feats and feat tree chooses it will be hard to get just the right ones for a gestalt.


That depends on what you are playing. The Barbarian/Wizard example I posted above might have a hard time picking between Arcane Armor Training or Cleave, but a Wizard/Rogue can specialize in ranged spells + sneak attack.


Gestalt is feat starving, yes. That's why Fighter / X is really frequent in gestalt.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Feats are only spread thin based on the character you are trying to build. If you chose to make a focused character it's often easier on feats than a normal character.


Yah, you could totally do a Fighter/Monk and get like a bazillion feats. :)


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Fighter/Ranger or Fighter/gunslinger for ultimate martial.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Eben TheQuiet wrote:
Yah, you could totally do a Fighter/Monk and get like a bazillion feats. :)

monk|paladin with a divine bond: weapon (unarmed strike) would be fairly awesome, if you could manage the MADness - I would imagine a Dex/Wis/Cha focus, as smite evil and lay-on hands would reduce need for strength and con. The saves, though, would be awesome and the various defences would make most stuff bounce off you...


Thorin2011 wrote:

Okay that makes Feats even more valuable, and harder to choose. I have a Level 10 Gunslinger 5 / Alchemist 5. I started to think what he would look like as a Gestalt level 5 and realized that I wound have to thin out the already hard pick feats for this character.

Thus, lots of help posts for the Gestalts that prompted this thread.

Will

Gunslinger 5 / Alchemist 5 gestalted would be Gunslinger 10 // Alchemist 10.


lol true no feat changes and lots and lots of explosive ammunition.


Eben TheQuiet wrote:
Yah, you could totally do a Fighter/Monk and get like a bazillion feats. :)

I have one in my game. Yeh pretty much feats out the wazoo.


blackbloodtroll wrote:
Fighter/Ranger or Fighter/gunslinger for ultimate martial.

I'm a Fighter/Monk myself. So much fun seeing people think all I do is throw shuriken...


I run a group with gestalt characters & I really don't mind them at all. Even a "tri-stalt"

As a house rule I don't allow 2 classes within the same "type"... i.e. martial, divine, arcane, skill monkey. (No Ranger/Fighter for example.) As a balancing factor for the increased ability I have character roll HP for both class & take the average. (The fighter/wizard will have increased spell use, but doesn't have the HP to go toe-to-toe with a straight fighter)

I've just always loved 2nd Edition multi class & dual class rules & still use em for Pathfinder.


Cleric of Caffeine wrote:


I've just always loved 2nd Edition multi class & dual class rules & still use em for Pathfinder.

I learned on 2nd Edition myself. I am working vary slowly on making my custom world for 2nd ed Pathfinder ready.


Thorin2011 wrote:
I learned on 2nd Edition myself. I am working vary slowly on making my custom world for 2nd ed Pathfinder ready.

Yup, I'm doing the same thing. (Taking a lot longer than I thought it would.) I'm running Rise of the Runelords while I work things out.


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

I started in 3.0, I have no idea what "dual class" is.


blackbloodtroll wrote:
I started in 3.0, I have no idea what "dual class" is.

Think of it like a gestalt but you are slitting the exp you get between the classes you choose. so I straight fighter lvls up at a faster rate than a fighter/wizard dual class. or the even harder to manage an Elf Fighter/thift/wizard. Lvling up even slower.


I can't help but think that if you were ever allowed in a campaign that let you Gestalt and multi-class, you'd never need magic items.


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

My groups don't even use xp anymore. Plot based leveling across the board. So much easier, and with many benefits.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

2nd edition multiclassing: (No humans allowed) choose classes, split exp evenly between classes. Example: Fighter/wizard as Thorin states.

2nd edition dual-classing: (Humans only). Level up in one class (such as fighter). Abandon class, start over at 1st level as new class (such as wizard). While leveling up do not use previous classes abilities or suffer a penalty in the exp earned. When new class equals the level of the old class you may use both sets of abilities equally.

- Gauss

P.S. this is from memory so if I made an error I apologize. But I think it is accurate.


sorry Gauss is right

I plum forgot about that. I tried explaining thac0 to a friend and could not remember how it worked just that is was madding.


Gauss wrote:

2nd edition multiclassing: (No humans allowed) choose classes, split exp evenly between classes. Example: Fighter/wizard as Thorin states.

2nd edition dual-classing: (Humans only). Level up in one class (such as fighter). Abandon class, start over at 1st level as new class (such as wizard). While leveling up do not use previous classes abilities or suffer a penalty in the exp earned. When new class equals the level of the old class you may use both sets of abilities equally.

This is true, but in my experiance many groups (mine included) always house ruled the racial restrictions out.

As for XP. Currently I've been experimenting with single class uses Pathfinders XP fast track, 2 classes the med track, with 3 the slow. -Haven't been using it long enough to know if I like it.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

My group also houseruled the racial restrictions (including level caps) out. However, I prefer to keep my houserules out of rules forum discussions.

- Gauss


Gauss wrote:

My group also houseruled the racial restrictions (including level caps) out. However, I prefer to keep my houserules out of rules forum discussions.

- Gauss

-I can see the wisdom in that.

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion, Maps, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Gauss wrote:

2nd edition dual-classing: (Humans only). Level up in one class (such as fighter). Abandon class, start over at 1st level as new class (such as wizard). While leveling up do not use previous classes abilities or suffer a penalty in the exp earned. When new class equals the level of the old class you may use both sets of abilities equally.

- Gauss

P.S. this is from memory so if I made an error I apologize. But I think it is accurate.

Slight correction. For dual class you got to use the abilities of both classes once the level of your new class exceeded the level of the old class.

But otherwise spot on.


Cleric of Caffeine wrote:

I run a group with gestalt characters & I really don't mind them at all. Even a "tri-stalt"

As a house rule I don't allow 2 classes within the same "type"... i.e. martial, divine, arcane, skill monkey. (No Ranger/Fighter for example.) As a balancing factor for the increased ability I have character roll HP for both class & take the average. (The fighter/wizard will have increased spell use, but doesn't have the HP to go toe-to-toe with a straight fighter)

I've just always loved 2nd Edition multi class & dual class rules & still use em for Pathfinder.

The Fighter/Wizard still get arcane spell failure % while in armor, so he/she can't really do both job "at once"


1 person marked this as a favorite.

You can incorporate gestalts in a normal game by reducing the advancement rate of the gestalts by one step (from fast to medium or from medium to slow). This results with gestalts one or two levels behind normal characters, wich is kinda balanced by the sheer power of the class abilities (7th level spells vs 6th, extra and more powerful rage powers, smites, discoveries, mysteries, etc).

Humbly,
Yawar


YawarFiesta wrote:

You can incorporate gestalts in a normal game by reducing the advancement rate of the gestalts by one step (from fast to medium or from medium to slow). This results with gestalts one or two levels behind normal characters, wich is kinda balanced by the sheer power of the class abilities (7th level spells vs 6th, extra and more powerful rage powers, smites, discoveries, mysteries, etc).

Humbly,
Yawar

Depends if it's premade advanture or some thing the DM/GM made/is making, your Gestalt PCs might face off against Gestalt NPCs, creature with added/maximized hit dices, advanced template, etc


I am going to use a Gestalt NPC to test the consept out in my current home brew "Lost Empire." The NPC is a staff Magus/ weapon adept Monk. the Idea was a Old man with a "walking stick" Kicking the PC's but at low lvls and helping them in the higher levels. so far it looks good.


pH unbalanced wrote:
Gauss wrote:

2nd edition dual-classing: (Humans only). Level up in one class (such as fighter). Abandon class, start over at 1st level as new class (such as wizard). While leveling up do not use previous classes abilities or suffer a penalty in the exp earned. When new class equals the level of the old class you may use both sets of abilities equally.

- Gauss

P.S. this is from memory so if I made an error I apologize. But I think it is accurate.

Slight correction. For dual class you got to use the abilities of both classes once the level of your new class exceeded the level of the old class.

But otherwise spot on.

Wow, Im amazed that I remembered it as accurately as I did. I expected more corrections as it has been 12years since I picked up a 2nd edition book.

- Gauss

Qadira

I have all my 1st, 2nd, 3x, and pathfinder core books sitting on one book shelf. I use the older stuff for ref all the time. Mostly for equipment. I still think one of the best equipment books out thereh was aura's Catalog. (might be missed spelled.)

Gestalt is it legal in Pathfinder without house rules? This could be the anwswer to some of my character build walls I am having. I love the monks unarmed combat stuff. AC, flurry, unarmed DMG. But thats about all I like for monks unless i am playing a Master of many styles. But Like the Idea of unarmed Ranger (rambo kind of) or unarmed Ninja. maybe something along the lines of Druid/ninja for wildshape and back stab.


No. Gestalt is a house rule.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion Subscriber
Cleric of Caffeine wrote:

This is true, but in my experiance many groups (mine included) always house ruled the racial restrictions out.

As for XP. Currently I've been experimenting with single class uses Pathfinders XP fast track, 2 classes the med track, with 3 the slow. -Haven't been using it long enough to know if I like it.

I'm using Fast track Exp in my game, and give a few gestalt style options. One is the straight Gestalt at the normal track. Other options is to pick up additional classes in parallel to your main class, similar to gestalting, costing the new class it's own fast exp track. As with Gestalt, only the best of the matching attributes counts. So if you have 3rd level fighter and 2nd level wizard, you would only have the 3 hit dice as a fighter, not the additional 2hd as a wizard.

The group just leveled to 3rd a few weeks ago, and I'm going to expect that they might start picking up secondary classes now. Though I just got a new player that, since he is starting with 4,000xp, is going to Gestalt a set of classes, sounds like Monk will be one of them.

Funny that I'm totally against power gaming, but I like my players to have lots of options and potential for what they want in a character.

I'm fairly magic item poor so far, and I plan on having magic items be a bit more focused then Pathfinder SRD. Such as when a sword is magical, the usual thing is that it is magical vs certain creatures. So you will be seeing more along the along the lines of +1 vs [type] weapons rather then +1 vs all, which are closer to artifact in power.

However, since the characters do have easy access to class magic, they should be able to easily keep from hurting too bad.

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