I will start with the following statement: This is not intended to provoke an anti-WBL flame war. Please avoid doing so. Thank you.
This is an idea I have been toying around with.
Preface:
Ever since D&D came out with 'X' treasure should be awarded by 'Y' level (WBL by whatever name) there have been difficulties with trying to rectify the old style of D&D and the style where you need to maintain the player's treasure based power levels.
To fix this I identified several elements that when they interact cause problems.
Element 1: Selling equipment for half price.
This does nothing but serve to penalize players for getting rid of old equipment.
Element 2: Crafting
This allows players to build extra power in for the cost of a Feat. Often in unpredictable ways.
Element 3: Wealth By Level.
It can be difficult to maintain this due to other elements.
My (rather simplistic) solution:
1) All equipment is bought and sold for full price.
2) Crafting feats are automatically granted to all who qualify for them. Optionally, a DM can simply drop any crafting feats he chooses without much of a change to the game. However, crafting is done at full market price (not 1/2). Crafting does not otherwise change.
3) WBL stays as is but is now easier to control or adjust. Those GMs that simply want to hand out treasure and then forget about WBL can now do so without ever worrying about if the players are where they need to be.
- Gauss
It looks ok on paper. If things are sold at full price though and you wish to maintain WBL (honestly I dont really care in the games I run) then you would need to drop the amount of loot. Which can cause you to have issues with making NPCs powerful enough to challenge the group without giving them too much loot. You would just have to give more charged items or single use times to the NPCs.
As I said. I really dont regulate the WBL thing very much in my games. I love loot. I love giving loot. I like throwing fun magic items out in loot because it would seem fun.
I usually compensate by explaining to my group that I like giving loot, but that I will also be proving gold sinks to compensate (Keep to rebuild, church to fund, town to provide for, ect)
But other than that I like it. Maybe I will give it a shot if I start a new campaign.
I like this. So is the reasoning behind selling items at half price specifically because you can craft for half price? Or does it affect the game in other ways?
EDIT:
and another question. Are you compensating the 1st level wizard in any way for the changes? It seems like they not longer have as much of an advantage getting Scribe Scroll for free if they pay full price for scrolls when they craft them.
Also, do you disallow the other feat(s) that reduce crafting costs?
LeDM, good point about classes (Wizard is not the only one) that gain automatic craft feats. They would have to be compensated.
The idea about selling items at half price has been around far longer than crafting magic items has.
Off the top of my head I can only think of one thing that reduces crafting costs. A trait called Hedge Magician (5% reduction). Removal of the trait would be simplest although if left in it shouldnt be game breaking.
The whole point of this is so that we do not have to do all the calculations to maintain balanced equipment.
Dragonamedrake, you are correct. The amount of loot handed out in table 12-5 of the CRB would need to be dropped a bit. Not all the way down to the WBL though since some consumables will still need to be acquired and used.
- Gauss
I need to come up with a list of classes that gain Crafting Feats for free.
Wizard = Scribe Scroll
Alchemist = Brew Potion
Rune Domain = Scribe Scroll
Am I missing any? Thanks
Also debating on what feats to replace them with. Ideas are welcome.
- Gauss
Hmmm, never botching is pretty much guaranteed now to be honest. (You can take 10 on a craft check.) However, your idea about a chance for an extra beneficial power might be an idea.
- Gauss
(Since this is the homebrew section, my thoughts are along different lines than elsewhere. I wouldn't comment, since I'm not sure what I have to say will be particularly helpful, but I shouldn't clutter up the other thread either.)
This would break my suspension of disbelief. I'm a bit too simulationist to be interested in such a system. If it costs 5000 to make something that sells for 5000, why would anyone, NPCs included, ever bother selling anything? While the MagicMart may not be desirable, the idea that any finished product is worth exactly the sum of its parts just bugs me.
I could see gamists and narrativists not caring about that though.
In more detail, I'm not sure I agree with any of your three problems.
1) Again, a simulationist argument, but pawn shops do buy things for less than they sell them for. Also, buying and selling at the same price encourages people to trade out their gear ASAP. There's no reason not to.
2) Extra power for a feat is basically what every feat does. That this one is potentially more unpredictable than others is a moot point, especially since you've already predicted the worst case scenario.
3) WBL is just a guideline. There's no need to maintain it. Besides that, the exponential nature of WBL means that doubling a character's wealth is roughly +3 levels on the table, though no one feat actually doubles a character's wealth. I mean, what would you think if the feat said "+1 level for WBL purposes. This feat can be taken multiple times. It's effects stack."?
If it's too much bookkeeping, why not just consider all treasure to be worth its sell price? Then giving them 4000 gp will be the same as giving them a +2 sword, whether or not they craft a +2 axe out of either. If they go and buy something, it'll reduce their effective wealth a bit, but that can be made up later.
I don't know. The idea that the crafting feats are a problem (especially that they're somehow the biggest problem in the game), or that character's need to be audited and should stay right near their WBL (etc., etc.) is just foreign to me and the groups I've played in. :/
Anyway. I'll stop there. I don't think I'll be able to offer any real advice here, but if your group's ok with it, go for it.
MagiMaster, thanks for responding.
This is all based on following WBL guidelines. For those that do not follow WBL guidelines then the entire concept is a non-issue. I do follow WBL guidelines and I find it a headache. So, I can either ignore WBL guidelines (as others do) or fix the problems that make following WBL guidelines a problem. Both solutions have problems.
If you ignore WBL guidelines then certain crafting feats become irrelevant (primarily the non-consumable crafting feats). (This idea even makes it into some people's class guides.)
If you follow WBL guidelines then keeping up with WBL is a major problem. That is what this idea is devoted to fixing.
1) I agree that this breaks with simulationist ideals. The fact is...if we substituted the phrase 'gold peices' with 'equipment points' we wouldn't be far off the mark from what 3.x WBL has been. My alterations simply acknowledge this (without making the actual name substitution).
2) I agree, but the main problem with crafting is not just the extra effective power but the fact that whenever designing a treasure you have to take it into account as regarding WBL guidelines. Player 1 made equipment 1, 3, and 6 so I have to halve the value of those equipment peices when figuring out if they have enough.
3) I think I stated my point regarding WBL above.
I recognize people have their own ideas on how to deal with WBL issues. The standard method seems to be 'who cares about WBL?' For those of us that do try to follow WBL something besides 'WBL is just a guideline, who cares about the guideline' is in order. This is just my idea to try to fix that problem.
- Gauss
Why not just half everything else? If you go by the sell price for items, you're basically assuming that the party will eventually convert everything in to cash and then craft what they want or buy something. I don't think that's too far off the mark in the long run.
Numbers always make things clearer. Let's pretend the WBL for the party should be 12,000 gp. So let me see if I've got this right.
Scenario 1, RAW:
- Players acquire 10,000 gp in non-cash loot and 2,000 gp in cash, bringing them up to WBL.
- They keep 2,000 worth of the items (list price) and sell the rest for 4,000 cold hard cash.
- They buy 1,000 gp worth of stuff.
- They craft the remaining 5,000 gp into 10,000 gp worth of gear.
- They now have a total of 13,000 gp worth of stuff by the list price, or 8,000 gp worth of stuff if you half the value of crafted items.
- RAW, you should use the lower value, which means selling stuff lowered their wealth.
Scenario 2, your method:
- Players acquire 10,000 gp in non-cash loot and 2,000 gp in cash, bringing them up to WBL.
- They keep 2,000 worth of the items (list price) and sell the rest for 8,000 cold hard cash.
- They buy 1,000 worth of stuff.
- They craft the 9,000 gp into 9,000 worth of gear.
- They now have 12,000 gp total.
- They have the right wealth, but they have less gear than the previous scenario.
Scenario 3, half values (so WBL should be 6,000 gp):
- Players acquire 5,000 gp in non-cash loot (the same stuff, counted at sell price) and 1,000 gp in cash, bringing them to WBL. (I changed the cash here just to make the numbers easier to compare.)
- They keep 1,000 worth of the items and sell the rest for 4,000 cold hard cash.
- They buy 1,000 worth of stuff (list price), which is only 500 worth at sell price.
- They craft the remaining 4,000 gp into 4,000 worth of stuff (sell price/cost).
- They now have 5,500 gp total. This is basically the same as the first scenario, but not exactly. It is less bookkeeping though.
Anyway. Draw your own conclusions. :)
Scenario 1 is correct. The GM now needs to add another 4000 gp to bring them up to WBL again. This is how I currently run things and it is a pain for me.
Scenario 2 (my proposal) is also correct. It basically removes crafting as an option to gain 'extra gear'. Many GMs ban crafting for the same reason.
Scenario 3: Interesting method. Should we convert the 5500gp back into scenario 1 pricing we come up with:
2000gp worth of items retained from the treasure.
1000gp worth of items purchased.
4000gp (crafted price) worth of items crafted.
Total: 7000gp.
Result: I still have to bring them up to WBL as per Scenario 1.
I thank you for the time you spent on this. They are definitely interesting options. I used to use a method similar to Scenario 3 back in 3.5 but still had the same problem.
I do not believe that you and I will ever see eye to eye on this topic as you are a simulationist and I am a not. But I do appreciate your input.
- Gauss
Had an alternate idea that would keep the crafting rules basically the same.
1) All equipment is bought and sold for full price except crafted items as per #2.
2) Crafted items can only be used by the crafter unless full price is paid. This is due to a connection between the crafter and the crafted item. If a crafted item is sold it is sold at the price it is crafted at (half or full respectively). Crafted items count against WBL at either half or full price respectively.
3) WBL stays as is but is now easier to control or adjust. Those GMs that simply want to hand out treasure and then forget about WBL can now do so without ever worrying about if the players are where they need to be.
Again, this is an attempt to make WBL less of a pain for those of us that follow it.
- Gauss
I have a "psuedo-simulationist" take on the proposed doubling of crafting costs. It's shaky, but here me out.
A "full-time" crafter of potions, or scrolls, or magic weapons, whatever, has economy of scale working for him, and a lifetime of experience to iron out all the efficiency issues. With the probable apprenticeship that led him to his current full-time crafting job, he may have more than one lifetime of experience to draw upon. His whole life is probably centered around his profession, so he also has the best equipment and has negotiated the best deals for raw materials. He can make it cheap, and thus turn a profit selling it.
Your PCs are full-time adventurers, so they have none of these things. They may have a field alchemy lab, or access to some minimal amount of tools and an unfamiliar forge, but it'll be harder for them, and they will naturally expend more time and money making the same thing as a professional who has been doing it their whole life. Look at any of the DIY communities (brewing, gardening, auto-repair, etc.). Anyone will tell you that by the time you invest in the right tools and base materials, it will have been cheaper to just by the thing you are making twice over. You have to do a LOT of a hobby to make it economically viable, to the point where it's almost a career. But that's not why people DIY. That do it for the satisfaction, and the customization possibilities.
I don't see a real reason why full-price crafting doesn't work with the simulationist viewpoint. In fact, if you only make a few magic items every once in a while, you may even spend more money to make them than you would just buying them. A feat in my mind grants the fundamental and theoretical understanding of what you are doing, but not automatically a bunch of experience on optimizing it.
This idea clearly works better for the common magic items (scrolls, potions, armor, weapons) than for wondrous items and other things that are so unique and rare that NO ONE would have a lot of experience making them, but it's a thought...
Atarlost, that isnt an issue. CRB Table 12-5 is about 20-30% higher than WBL. The 20-30% is assumed to be lost in consumables and occassional equipment replacing. I use the table to hand out equipment and then periodically check WBL and I find that the system works.
- Gauss
Edit: It works except for the whole selling half of a treasure haul at half price which then throws things off.
LeDM, I think the simulationist problem is not with crafting but with the idea of buying and selling at full price. I have personally argued the simulationist pov on occassion when it comes to the economics of buying at full price and selling at half (ie: pawn shop theory).
Simulationist: Buy at full, sell as fast as you can and thus you only get half price.
My idea: Gold Peices are just a representation of 'equipment points' and thus exchanging equipment for points on a 1:1 ratio is the easiest way of maintaining WBL without GM headaches.
- Gauss
Two minor details:
@Gauss, I just wanted to point out that in scenarios 1 and 3, the loss of wealth comes from selling items, not from crafting. (Especially in scenario 3, where crafting doesn't change wealth at all.)
@LeDM, The rules kind of prevent any possibility of scale. There's a hard limit on how fast items can be made, at least with magic items. (Whether or not the mundane crafting times make sense is a whole different thread.) Also, what do you do when one of your players wants to play someone that runs such a business?
Although, I agree that the simulationist issue is more with buying/selling than crafting.
MagiMaster, my 'fix' regarding crafting has more to do with fixing the problem solution 1 creates than any problem with crafting itself.
Namely, that problem is that if you buy and sell at full price you cannot then craft at half price because if you sell at full price it screws up the economy.
Hence my redesign of the idea to keep crafting basically the same but prevent the problem of selling crafted items at full (rather than half) price.
- Gauss
I can totally see the simulationist problem with buying and selling at the same price. Hmm. If you buy into the reasoning (I posted above) for crafting at full price, you could actually allow for a difference between sale and buying price.
Buying = Crafting price = Full price
Selling = ~70% full price, although you can totally vary this as you see fit depending on the the particular item and the environment in which it is being sold. All this to appeal to pricing realism, but within the confines of 100% crafting price. It now becomes impossible to make money crafting (actually you "lose" money upon selling the item, but of course you still gain something - the flexibility choosing exactly what you want). If crafting feats are free, I don't think anyone will have a cause for complaint. Yes you can now have a situation where players are losing wealth whenever they sell anything, BUT I think it's much easier to keep track of and account for as a DM. Just keep a tally of the the difference whenever something really big is sold, and assign it to the next treasure horde.
@MagiMaster: As far as the player who wants to roleplay a full-time magic item crafter... I don't know, maybe this will piss some players off if you take that away from them. However, if you buy into the notion that you can craft anything DIY style, but that you can really only save money doing it if you've dedicated your whole life to the process of perfecting your craft... it doesn't seem like there's much room in there for adventuring. It seems to me that if you have the mindset of a master magic sword craftsman, you probably lack the necessary gumption and disregard for personal safety to take up a life of adventuring in your later years (once you've established a business, a name for yourself, etc.). Maybe once in a blue moon such a person will come along. Anyone buying it? No? ;-)
Oh, and to address the imbalance of taking away the advantage of free crafting from those classes that are granted it.
What if to compensate them, you allow them to craft at a discount, but only for personal use. Here's an example:
Wizards can scribe "personal" scrolls at a discount (maybe not half, but something) because they have perfected potentially dangerous spell short-cuts, an efficient magical shorthand that only they can decipher based on their own magical intuitions, etc. It would be at worst indecipherable, and at best potentially dangerous for someone else to try and cast such "personal" scrolls unless the wizard explains the deviations from the standard spellcasting forms and the way to compensate for them during the incantation. So this becomes something they can easily explain to their adventuring party, but not something that the general consumer of scrolls would care to pay for.
I'm sure similar reasons can be given for the other bonus item creation feats granted by other classes.
What do you all think?
My current character is a successful businessman (a trapper/furrier) that fell into an adventure. His business is kind of been left behind for now, but it's the type of business he can get back to later. Not every adventurer goes adventuring.
Also, given that the typical item crafter is a high level wizard, it seems like a safe bet that they were an adventurer at some point.
There's also all the suggested adventures that have you go gather materials for a powerful wizard. I imagine some of them will gather at least some of that material themselves. It's certainly the cheaper option.
Anyway, my point is that the idea that it takes more than a hobbyist's interest in crafting to get the discount is fine, but to completely deny the option to be more than a hobbyist to the players isn't, at least not past campaign-specific restrictions. I also think it doesn't mesh well with most of the fantasy literature.