Criticism on my Barbarian build please - Is it optimised?


Advice


Hey guys,

It's been a very long time since I last used a Barbarian and this time I feel I've created something pretty amazing.

The guy is based off of something (not going to state what, as the people I play with read these messageboards), so keeping to its original concept, I've gone with an approach of lots of life and damage reduction, with incredibly huge attack power, but tiny defense where AC is concerned.

To me, this feels like a true Barbarian, but I haven't ever had an optimised character, so just wanted your opinions on this build and how well I've made it/how effective it'll be in combat, please. :)

Adam - Level 1, with Feats and Rage Powers up to level 17:

Name: Adam, Prince of Arcadia
Home: Arcadia
Deity: Gorum
Race: Human
Class: Barbarian - Invulnerable Rager
Campaign: Kingmaker
Racial Trait: Heart of the Fields
Level: 1

HP: 15 (21 while Raging, 2's from Raging Vitality)
AC: 13 (11 while Raging)

Str: 18 (+4)
Dex: 12 (+1)
Con: 15 (+2)
Wis: 10
Int: 10
Cha: 11

CMB: 5
CMD: 16

Initiative: 1
BAB: 1

Fort: 4
Ref: 1
Will: 0

While Raging:

Fort: 4
Ref: 1
Will: 2

Favoured Class: Barbarian, +1 HP per level
Weapon: Great Sword
Armour: Leather

Rounds of Rage: 9
~ Trait: Berserker of the Society - You may use your rage ability for 3 additional rounds per day.

Attack:

Atk Bonus: 5
Damage: +5/2d6 + 6
Damage w/Power Attack: +4/2d6 + 9
Damage w/Rage: +7/2d6 + 9
Damage w/Rage and Power Attack: +6/2d6 + 12

Skills:

Climb: 8
Handle animal: 4
Intimidate: 4
Perception: 4

Feats:

1. Power Attack, Raging Vitality
3. Bolstered Resilience
5. Extra Rage Power
7. Improved Bull Rush
9. Improved Critical
11. Greater Bull Rush
13. Extra Rage Power
15. Raging Brutality
17. Extra Rage Power

Abilities:

1. Fast Movement, Rage (+4 Str and Con, +2 Will while Raging)
11. Greater Rage (+6 Str and Con, +3 Will)
14. Indomitable Will (+4 Will on top of Will bonus from Rage)
17. Tireless Rage (No longer fatigued from leaving Rage)

Can rage for 2 extra rounds at each level after level 1.

Powers:

2. Rage Power - Knockback
4. Rage Power - Guarded Life
5. Rage Power - Powerful Blow
6. Rage Power - Renewed Vigor
8. Rage Power - Crippling Blow
10. Rage Power - Regenerative Vigor
12. Rage Power - Mighty Swing
13. Rage Power - Reckless Abandon
14. Rage Power - Guarded Life, Greater
16. Rage Power - Increased Damage Reduction
17. Rage Power - Increased Damage Reduction


Looks interesting, so you want to have a lot of hps, damage reduction, and strength, but you want low ac?

I mean the barbarian already suffers from low ac even with medium armor, so you really don't have to push it but thats your choice. It will come to being hit often to being hit ALL the time lol.

I played a barbarian to level 8 and I made him the tank of the group with the best medium armor I could use and with the help of the rage power "beast totem" for natural armor bonus. From this, our paladin still had better ac than me lol and she was an archer type.

Basically I would recommend better armor, but if that messes up your concept than try to get bracers of armor or something if your concept revolves around him wearing less armor and more linen cloth lol. In the end, the character is going to get hit a lot and might get taken out in a fight too early against bigger opponents. A lot of HP helps out but it is finite resource, but thankfully the DR mitigates it a little. Good luck on it.

However, I have one question whats up with the mix of rage powers? what are you going for? I would recommend the beast totem powers just because of pounce being very useful and the superstitious chain. When you get all those powers from the superstitious chain it fits a barbarian well and it definitely gives them the power to take on magic. its an all or nothing type of chain.


I get why you went with Invulnerable Rager, but did you consider the Mounted Fury archetype? You know for the mount your character concept should have :)


Bandavaar the Brave wrote:

Hey guys,

It's been a very long time since I last used a Barbarian and this time I feel I've created something pretty amazing.

The guy is based off of something (not going to state what, as the people I play with read these messageboards), so keeping to its original concept, I've gone with an approach of lots of life and damage reduction, with incredibly huge attack power, but tiny defense where AC is concerned.

To me, this feels like a true Barbarian, but I haven't ever had an optimised character, so just wanted your opinions on this build and how well I've made it/how effective it'll be in combat, please. :)

1. This is a personal opinion. I would never... NEVER... take an archetype that gave up Improved Uncanny Dodge. EVER. PERIOD. Its that good. You cannot be caught flat-footed, nor do you lose her Dex bonus to AC if the attacker is invisible. And you can no longer be flanked. That is amazing. A barbarian is designed to charge into combat and is usually flanked quite a bit. This takes away a lot of the disadvantages to that. Lets see what you get in return for giving up the best ability the Barbarian gets....

You get an extra 5/- DR, and 5 points of either cold or fire resist... wow. That just blows my mind. Every Rogue on the planet wants you to take this archetype... every single one. The DR is ok. The elemental resist is laughable. Invulnerable Rager is a horrible horrible trade off.

2. Take this: Beast Totem, Greater (Su)

Prerequisite: Barbarian 10, beast totem rage power

This is one of the best Rage powers in the game. You get pounce. The ability to charge and full attack can not be over valued. I would take this if you want to be optimized. Especially if you ditch that archetype so you don't mind being in the middle of your foes.


That invulnerable rager is pretty awesome if built correctly. I am having to deal with one now, and he just won't die.

The DR can get a lot higher than 5, and you still hit hard enough to make them cry.

PS:You do have to really focus on pumping DR though. I would also not suggest charging into battle in any event. There are a things a lot worse than rogue that can try to kill you once you are separated from the party.

I do question bull rush though. It has always seemed to situational to me to be worth taking as a PC.


wraithstrike wrote:

That invulnerable rager is pretty awesome if built correctly. I am having to deal with one now, and he just won't die.

The DR can get a lot higher than 5, and you still hit hard enough to make them cry.

PS:You do have to really focus on pumping DR though. I would also not suggest charging into battle in any event. There are a things a lot worse than rogue that can try to kill you once you are separated from the party.

I do question bull rush though. It has always seemed to situational to me to be worth taking as a PC.

Its DR 10/-. A normal Barb gets DR 5/-. Hense why I said it gets and "extra" 5/-. And yes they can be good. Its a barbarian. Is is an optimal choice? Absolutely not. Uncanny dodge is amazing. There isnt a single Archetype that gives it up that I would consider. Being effectively immune to flanking and sneak attack shores up one of the few classes that can out DPR a barbarian. Negate one of the few classes that can eat through a barbarians HP with ease.

I dont know about you but rogues surprising the party first round and eating them up, followed by winning imitative and then doing it again the first round of combat is a common tactic. The barbarian just giggles and unloads. You give up Uncanny Dodge and your just as vulnerable. How often does an invisible foe drop a touch attack on someone with a 10 touch AC cause they are flat footed? Not a Barbarian with Uncanny dodge... he is never flat footed. I could go on and on. There are a million reasons to keep Uncanny dodge.


Dragonamedrake wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:

That invulnerable rager is pretty awesome if built correctly. I am having to deal with one now, and he just won't die.

The DR can get a lot higher than 5, and you still hit hard enough to make them cry.

PS:You do have to really focus on pumping DR though. I would also not suggest charging into battle in any event. There are a things a lot worse than rogue that can try to kill you once you are separated from the party.

I do question bull rush though. It has always seemed to situational to me to be worth taking as a PC.

Its DR 10/-. A normal Barb gets DR 5/-. Hense why I said it gets and "extra" 5/-. And yes they can be good. Its a barbarian. Is is an optimal choice? Absolutely not. Uncanny dodge is amazing. There isnt a single Archetype that gives it up that I would consider. Being effectively immune to flanking and sneak attack shores up one of the few classes that can out DPR a barbarian. Negate one of the few classes that can eat through a barbarians HP with ease.

I dont know about you but rogues surprising the party first round and eating them up, followed by winning imitative and then doing it again the first round of combat is a common tactic. The barbarian just giggles and unloads. You give up Uncanny Dodge and your just as vulnerable. How often does an invisible foe drop a touch attack on someone with a 10 touch AC cause they are flat footed? Not a Barbarian with Uncanny dodge... he is never flat footed. I could go on and on. There are a million reasons to keep Uncanny dodge.

Touch AC's are easy enough to hit that they are really almost automatic even if you are not flat-footed.

Invulnerability (Ex): At 2nd level, the invulnerable rager gains DR/— equal to half her barbarian level. This damage reduction is doubled against nonlethal damage. This ability replaces uncanny dodge, improved uncanny dodge, and damage reduction. <--This alone is 6 DR by level 13
Increase Damage Reduction (Ex) While raging, your DR increases by 1.
Increase Damage Reduction (Ex) While raging, your DR increases by 1.
Increase Damage Reduction (Ex) While raging, your DR increases by 1.

When raging this goes up to DR 9. This alone negates about 3d6 of sneak attack on average not that I can agree with charging into combat alone like that. Such tactics might get you killed well before level 13.

edit:Stalwart and improved stalwart provides another 8 DR when fighting defensively bringing the total to DR 17. Now about 5d6 has been negated.

Threatening Defender Reduce Combat Expertise penalty by 1.


With 12 dex Uncanny Dodge does not really help that much.


Nermal2097 wrote:
I get why you went with Invulnerable Rager, but did you consider the Mounted Fury archetype? You know for the mount your character concept should have :)

Unfortunately, changing Archetype changes the character too much and the GM said no to having a Combat Ready mount, unless I went with an Archetype, Cavalier, Druid or Ranger....which I'm not going to do, because it changes what I'm going for too much. I might be allowed a Tiger as a pet, but not as a mount unfortunately, apparently because they're exotic animals to ride and would be hard to handle, even with a high Handle Animal and Ride.

@Wraithstrike - Thanks. Hopefully it's built as well as you think it is! Bolstered Resilience is a situational feat, but seemingly quite a handy one, so hopefully it'll be worth it. I'll only use it in Rage anyway, because then I still only get fatigued like normal after using it. :D

@Everyone else - I'm unsure about Pounce because I know it's good, but is it really necessary? I don't really feel it is, because I don't want to leave myself too open by leaving the group much, but I'm not ruling it out. I just wondered really about what everyone's opinion is on this.

Uncanny Dodge is nice, but with my low Dex, I really didn't think it mattered all that much and yes, I'll try to get some Bracers of Armour at some point as they would fit with the character fine. :p

I have the Bull Rush feats purely for Greater Bull Rush, because it gives me a free attack when I use the Knockback Rage Power. Maybe two feats aren't worth it, but looking at Stalwart and Improved Stalwart, that feat chain costs 4 feats instead, so sadly I don't think I'll be getting that. It is awesome though, turning a good DR into an insane DR! :D

The other Rage Powers are all things that will give me extra Attack Power, Damage and the ability to heal myself in combat, along with my Damage Reduction.

The concept for my character's look is literally just a leather strap going across his chest for Armour, so it woudn't make sense going with better armour. It'd keep me alive longer, but with the life, damage output and damage reduction, I'm hoping most things won't have a chance to outright kill me.

I could get rid of my Bull Rush feats, along with Raging Vitality and one Extra Rage Power for the added Damage Reduction, but Bolstered Resilience kind of takes care of that for me in a different way, enabling me to get DR20 on whatever attack I use it for at level 17. :)

Sure it means I don't have high DR with every attack against me, but it saves me from expending 4 out of my 10 feats, which is pretty expensive in my opinion. :(

I was just thinking I could get rid of Bolstered Resilience and my two Bull Rush feats for Diehard, Endurance and Stalwart, as it would mean my DR was constantly at a +5 if I used Combat Expertise all of the time at level 17, but without Combat Expertise it's pretty pointless anyway, so I guess my way is the only workable way to keep things the way they are. I don't mind at all, but a huge DR is really tempting. Still, I guess my DR, mixed with Raging Vitality and my high Con should do fairly well at keeping me alive, especially if I roll high for my life on most levels. :D


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@Bandavaar - Look at these links: Greater Bull Rush does NOT give YOU a free attack on a Knockback Rage Power.

Note that RAW - GBR gives all your ALLIES and specifically says "not you" the AOO and the Knockback doesn't provoke any AOOs at all. Not sure where you got the idea from to be able to do this, but you may want to reconsider your build unless it's a house-rule that allows you to do what you want.

It's generally considered very wise to try to get pounce as a Barbarian because if you can move AND full attack in a round, that's just sweet. Otherwise you bull rush in, knock things down and let your allies get the free AOOs with the build you are using.


An optimized Barbarian takes a level of lame oracle at level 9 for the free rage cycle, and you asked about optimizing.

Add pounce chain for more AC in addition to the awesome pounce

Drop the bull rush chain, you have knockback, it's the same thing (each is effectively once a round unless you're a shield focused type)

Get Strength Surge if you're concerned about your knockback bonus (you shouldn't be)

Dump your archetype, if you can't dump the archetype just keep a mental tally of all the times uncanny dodge would have been awesome, this will prevent you from dropping it in the future.

1. Power Attack, Raging Vitality (best two feats you can take here IMO)
2. Rage Power - Knockback (good choice early on)
3. Bolstered Resilience (TOO SOON, not worth it until you can rage cycle. This is excellent as a 1/rd power with your archetype, terrible as a fatigue power with a regular barbarian.)
4. Rage Power - Guarded Life (not a believer in this, not optimized, you took raging vitality and one feat spent on this sort of thing is enough)
5. Rage Power - Powerful Blow (not optimized, a +1 to hit is worth +2.7ish damage on most DPR calculators, this is a very low priority, lower than the number of feats/abilities you have, also it's once a round AND eats a swift action, which makes this bad)
6. Rage Power - Renewed Vigor (Once per day you can gain hitpoints as a standard action? They make this in potion form, this is terrible as a 1/day ability.
7. Improved Bull Rush (not optimized, you can knockback once a round anyway, so unless this is providing a feature I don't know about it seems to give a VERY marginal increase for a large cost)
8. Rage Power - Crippling Blow (Kind of okay, but it cost you two feat/ability slots to get a 1/round ability and you're still missing great things)
9. Improved Critical (I don't personally, but it is a solid feat.)
10. Rage Power - Regenerative Vigor (too many feats/rage powers lost to get here. 10th level is the time to be celebrating pounce, not finding new ways to lick your wounds)
11. Greater Bull Rush (Not optimal, IMO, see bull rush)
12. Rage Power - Mighty Swing (This is good if you can rage cycle, you can't)
13. Rage Power - Reckless Abandon (excellent, but very late to take this)
14. Rage Power - Guarded Life, Greater (see guarded life)
15. Raging Brutality ( I like this personally, good choice if your con is way up there, but I never seem to start at higher than 14CON)
16. Rage Power - Increased Damage Reduction (usually not worth it IMO, but I agree I just love DR so I may take this late on my barbarian even though there are more "optimal" choices)

In short, you're mostly not optimized. You will gain a lot from different selections, especially pounce and rage cycle.

I recommend:

1. Power Attack, Raging Vitality
2. Rage Power - Knockback
3. Furious Focus
4. Superstition (all level bumps going into this alt race fav. class ability)
5. ERP: Lesser Beast Totem (Claws)
6. Beast Totem (Nat. Armor)
7. Reckless Abandon (Late getting into it, but hey)
8. Unexpected Strike (Paired with knockback negates attacks well)
9. (ORACLE LEVEL) Combat Reflexes, Fatigue immunity
10.
11. Beast Totem, Greater (Pounce), empty slot (Strength Surge?)
12.
13. Dazing Assault, Come and Get Me (possibly the best two abilities you can get)
14+ Fighter.

I should mention that Ghost Rager and Witch Hunter are two great powers not included, you could find a home for them somewhere in that build. If you use a reach weapon then get combat reflexes earlier, at third even.


ub3r_n3rd wrote:
Not sure where you got the idea from to be able to do this, but you may want to reconsider your build unless it's a house-rule that allows you to do what you want.

Ah, I just misread it, that's all. I thought there was a feat that allowed you to do such a thing, but it appears I'm wrong, so my new idea is, to accompany Knockback, I feel I should get Knockdown and Unexpected Strike.

That way I can push them back or floor them if they step in front of me, as a free AoO. :D

If I can make my weapon keen at some point, I won't bother with improved critical, but it's unlikely right now.

I was tempted to go with Strength Surge, but this isn't a Sunder build, so I opted against it in the end, in favour of other things such as Combat tricks and better Damage Reduction.

I don't like to get Feats unless I'm going to use all of the feats I get, so although Pounce is good, Claws don't interest me and I don't want my character to have claws. It just wouldn't fit the concept, so unfortunately I won't be going with that, no matter how good Pounce is.

So, I guess my new feat chain would be:

1. Power Attack, Raging Vitality
3. Extra Rage Power
5. Extra Rage Power
7. Bolstered Resilience
9. Improved Critical
11. Extra Rage Power
13. Extra Rage Power
15. Raging Brutality
17. Extra Rage Power

Powers:

2. Rage Power - Knockback
3. Rage Power - Knockdown
4. Rage Power - Guarded Life
5. Rage Power - Quick Reflexes
6. Rage Power - Renewed Vigor
8. Rage Power - Unexpected Strike
10. Rage Power - Powerful Blow
11. Rage Power - Crippling Blow
12. Rage Power - Regenerative Vigor
13. Rage Power - Reckless Abandon
14. Rage Power - Guarded Life, Greater
16. Rage Power - Increased Damage Reduction
17. Rage Power - Increased Damage Reduction

I do however, quite like the idea of Rage Cycling, but seeing as I get Tireless Rage at Level 17 anyway, I don't suppose there's any point.....However, saying that, if the campaign only goes up to level 17, I may as well just get it earlier on so it's proves to be useful throughout the campaign. :D

It wouldn't effect my Damage Reduction and the only thing it would effect would be my Rage Powers. I'd have to give up one, but for Rage Cycling, I think that'd be a worthy sacrifice. So, thanks very much for the suggestion! :)

Edit: I'd need to go 5 levels Oracle before I could get Fatigue Immunity, so my Attack Power would be nerfed immensely. Shame as I was liking that idea a lot. Ah well, I've edited my Rage Power list accordingly.

I was tempted to swap in Flesh Wound, but at later levels that proves to be useless.

Powerful Blow is really there for Crippling Blow, because if I got a Critical hit, aside from the 4 points of ability damage I'd do at level 16, we play with Crit and Fumble cards, so that 4 could turn into 10 ability damage (if lucky enough to pull out a 1d6 ability damage card).

Guarded Life and Regenerative Vigor are there to aid me and ensure I don't die, whilst Quick Reflexes is there so if two enemies come at me simultaneously, I can knock one back and floor the other. :)

If I get my weapon made Keen, I'll most likely get the Brawler Rage Power to replace Improved Critical, just for the situations where I may not be able to use my weapon.


Bandavaar the Brave wrote:


I do however, quite like the idea of Rage Cycling, but seeing as I get Tireless Rage at Level 17 anyway, I don't suppose there's any point.....However, saying that, if the campaign only goes up to level 17, I may as well...

Read things again, your non oracle levels count as half oracle levels for the purposes of your curse. One level of oracle plus 8 levels in another class IS level 5 oracle for the curse.

Sczarni

You could also dip 3 levels in Horizon Walker and do your rage cycling that way. You'd be able to do it by level 9 (8 levels sooner then normal). I'd also take Furious Focus at level 1 so that you get 5 full levels of using power attack with absolutely no penalty to hit.


Lastoth wrote:
Bandavaar the Brave wrote:


I do however, quite like the idea of Rage Cycling, but seeing as I get Tireless Rage at Level 17 anyway, I don't suppose there's any point.....However, saying that, if the campaign only goes up to level 17, I may as well...
Read things again, your non oracle levels count as half oracle levels for the purposes of your curse. One level of oracle plus 8 levels in another class IS level 5 oracle for the curse.

I've read this whole entire page:

http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/advanced/baseClasses/oracle.html

I don't see anything that says a non Oracle level counts as half an Oracle level, I'm afraid. Where did you get that information from, because if it's correct (and you have proof - my GM only pays attention to something that's written in black and white), then I was going to get the Lame Curse with the Metal Archetype's Revelation of Dance of the Blades (Su).

The Lame Curse slows my guy by 10 feet, but gives me Fatigue Immunity, while my Revelation gives me 10 feet, so my movement would stay at 40 feet. :)

Edit: Sorry, I just found it after re-reading it for a third time - "An oracle's curse is based on her oracle level plus one for every two levels or Hit Dice other than oracle."

So, I'll do that then. One level of Oracle keeps my movement speed up and gives me Rage Cycling. :D

I only want to take one level in it, so that's fine and keeps practically everything else for my Barbarian the same. It's just the single Rage Power that I lose. Not a bad trade off really. :D


Quote:
Oracle's Curse (Ex): Each oracle is cursed, but this curse comes with a benefit as well as a hindrance. This choice is made at 1st level, and once made, it cannot be changed. The oracle's curse cannot be removed or dispelled without the aid of a deity. An oracle's curse is based on her oracle level plus one for every two levels or Hit Dice other than oracle. Each oracle must choose one of the following curses.


I edited my post above with that already. Thanks very much regardless though.

Rage Cycling and keeping my speed up is a good choice I feel. I might scrap Knockdown and just go with Flesh Wound or Furious Focus.

Furious Focus would allow me to get a full atk Power Attack off until level 5, where as Flesh Wound would allow me to halve most damage at earlier levels, but prove ineffective later on.

I might even swap out Quick Reflexes for an early Improved Damaged Reduction, but I'm not sure yet.


As an optimizer, I have to strongly disagree with Guarded Life and Regenerative Vigor. If you want them for flavor/character great, but they're less effective than numerous other choices.


Well, I've changed things around a lot, added things, swapped things out and now this is what I've got:

Feats:

1. Power Attack, Raging Vitality
3. Extra Rage Power
5. Extra Rage Power
7. Bolstered Resilience
9. Improved Critical
11. Extra Rage Power
13. Extra Rage Power
15. Raging Brutality
17. Extra Rage Power

Abilities:

1. Fast Movement, Rage (+4 Str and Con, +2 Will while Raging)
11. Greater Rage (+6 Str and Con, +3 Will)
14. Indomitable Will (+4 Will on top of Will bonus from Rage)
17. Tireless Rage (No longer fatigued from leaving Rage)

Can rage for 2 extra rounds at each level after level 1.

Powers:

2. Rage Power - Knockback
3. Rage Power - Increased Damage Reduction
4. Rage Power - Guarded Life
5. Rage Power - Renewed Vigor
6. Rage Power - Regenerative Vigor
8. Rage Power - Unexpected Strike
~ 9. Oracle - Lame Curse, Metal - Dance of the Blades (Su) Revelation, Fatigue Immunity and Full 40ft speed
10. Rage Power - Powerful Blow
11. Rage Power - Crippling Blow
12. Rage Power - Mighty Swing
13. Rage Power - Reckless Abandon
14. Rage Power - Guarded Life, Greater
17. Rage Power - Increased Damage Reduction

Heart of the Wilderness: Humans raised in the wild learn the hard way that only the strong survive. They gain a bonus equal to half their character level on Survival checks. They also gain a +5 bonus on Constitution checks to stabilize when dying and add half their character level to their Constitution score when determining the negative hit point total necessary to kill them. This racial trait replaces the skilled racial trait.

So, by level 18 I should have 16 Con (at least), add 9 for half of my level from Heart of the Wilderness, so to die I need to go down to -25. I'd have Damage Reduction 10, 20 with Bolstered Resilience, along with the ability to heal myself 4d8 + Con once per day from Renewed Vigor, then gain fast healing 3 from Regenerative Vigor, so long as I don't end my Rage.

On top of this I can auto-confirm crits once per rage, deal Str or Dex damage. Then, with Guarded Life, if I'm reduced below 0 hit points, damage equal to my Barb level is converted to non lethal damage (so I may be able to get straight back up if I don't drop too far below my HP) and then Greater Guarded Life doubles that!

Then I have Rage Cycle, Reckless Abandon for a better chance to hit and Unexpected Strike allows me to get a free AoO on anything that steps within 5 feet of me.

I can also Rage Cycle at my full speed of 40 feet from Fast Movement and should have a 17-20 Crit Greatsword, with a high enough CMB to use my Knockback ability on most things. If cliffs are nearby, goodbye enemies. :)

Raging Brutality then adds 1 and a half x my Con on damage rolls for expending 3 rounds of Rage, while Raging Vitality allows me to increase my Con by 2 while I continue Raging unconscious, so I can only die if I surpass -25 when not Raging and -29 when Raging.

Hopefully this would make my Barbarian almost unkillable and fine to play without armour. :)

Edit: Lastoth - Ah right, well I guess I'm as optimised as I can be for this build then. Still, the abilities look really nice and I think most compliment each other enough to keep me alive well!


My general advice is that I take the improved critical feat as a fighter, but as any other class I just pay for keen.

Improved initiative, Iron Will, Furious Focus, and so on will be more useful than improved crit.


Darkghost316 wrote:

Looks interesting, so you want to have a lot of hps, damage reduction, and strength, but you want low ac?

That my firend is the sound of a heavy shield in now added to your equipment list.

Ot at least that's my 2 copper pieces. Everything else seems legit.


wraithstrike wrote:

My general advice is that I take the improved critical feat as a fighter, but as any other class I just pay for keen.

Improved initiative, Iron Will, Furious Focus, and so on will be more useful than improved crit.

Then I guess Improved Initiative would be the best bet because if my current character dies, I'd be coming in at level 3 or above with this guy, so wouldn't get the most out of Furious Focus and should have a relatively high Will Save from my Barb Class anyway.

The reason I don't personally like Superstitious is because it prevents the Cleric from casting Cure Light Wounds on me, etc. They can Channel fine, but curing me with spells proves to be problematic.


Correction: it causes the cleric to heal for half if you make the save, but you can rage cycle so at some point down the road it becomes a moot point. The only time you really need in-combat healing that badly is when you're down and I believe any magical healing stabilizes you.


Lastoth wrote:
Correction: it causes the cleric to heal for half if you make the save, but you can rage cycle so at some point down the road it becomes a moot point. The only time you really need in-combat healing that badly is when you're down and I believe any magical healing stabilizes you.

Hmm and I can practically stabilise myself anyway. Still, it seems only worthwhile after I can Rage Cycle.

Improved Critical is really going to be the Feat I play with to opt for Superstitious or Improved Initiative then.

Apart from that, would you say my Survival Rates are relatively high? I've only ever had two previous Barbarians. One was in 4th edition I think it was (when overhand chop was still a Barbarian ability) and the other was for Council of Thieves...an Urban Barbarian, but sadly the PbP ended, so I didn't get to do much with her.

The abilities of this character are entirely new to me, but I've been taking everything suggested in this thread on board, whilst focusing on my own concept and ideas and I think I've got a relatively badass Barbarian. He'll become a joke to the players once I reveal his true identity (not that hard to work out tbh), but I think I have his self efficiency covered. The Superstitious power would just be a nice edition to his Will saves.


If you're playing a paizo AP I think you've gone overboard on prepping for the worst case scenario. Paizo APs just aren't all that lethal for the standard group. I'm wrapping up Council of Thieves right now and for the first 10 levels my bard had an almost non existent AC (16), I had to drink a potion once or twice, but really it wasn't anything to worry about. That was with a melee bard, mind you.


Lastoth wrote:

If you're playing a paizo AP I think you've gone overboard on prepping for the worst case scenario. Paizo APs just aren't all that lethal for the standard group. I'm wrapping up Council of Thieves right now and for the first 10 levels my bard had an almost non existent AC (16), I had to drink a potion once or twice, but really it wasn't anything to worry about. That was with a melee bard, mind you.

Haha, well we always have problems working in a group. Usually one person/character makes a fatal silly move and gets the whole party killed, or we get split up or fail to work as a group efficiently enough to survive.

The highest level I've ever gotten a character up to has been level 6 and that was in Legacy of Fire with a party of a Sorcerer of Sarenrae, a broken Zen Archer Half-Elf of Sarenrae, a Half-Orc Alchemist who could enlarge himself, focusing on bombs and Strength and my up front Two-Weapon Warrior, Ex Gladiator Halfling.

Mr. Carrion King hit my guy (who always rolled a 1 on healing potions and didn't fare too much better when rolling for life) and took most of his life with the first hit, my guy gave his life for the party so they could run and took the next hit, insta-killing him. The party didn't run and all got killed bar the Monk who left everyone to die anyway.

So yea, I've come prepared this time. :p

We've lost a character in Kingmaker already. He had a critical on him from a bolt that pierced his lung and failing all of his saves, he drowned in his own blood and the GM ruled it impossible to heal him with Cure spells, saying he'd only allow Lesser Restoration to heal this, which my guy hadn't prepared as he has the power to heal, but is all about the mind and compulsion effects, turning his enemies on one another and commanding them to do his bidding. So yea, that was unfortunate and I still don't agree that healing spells wouldn't have worked, but he's the GM, so whatever.

This time I'm prepared. :)

Sczarni

I'd swap Heart of the Wilderness for Heart of the Fields and you gain limited (1/day) rage cycling from 1st level. Combine that with Roused Anger and I believe you can effectively cycle your Rage 2/day from level 2... I wouldn't select Roused Anger as my 1st Rage Power though, but if you take a decently powerful 1/rage power at level 2 you could take Roused Anger at level 4.

I can't stress how much more benefit you will receive from Furious Focus at level 1 over Raging Vitality. Furious Focus benefits you on 100% of all attacks regardless if you're raging, where as Raging Vitality is more situational.

Unless your group is one of those that 'rests' after every single encounter you may find it tactically advantageous to not enter a rage at the start of every encounter - in which case you'd be even more crazy to select Raging Vitality over Furious Focus at level 1.


Daryl MacLeod wrote:

I'd swap Heart of the Wilderness for Heart of the Fields and you gain limited (1/day) rage cycling from 1st level. Combine that with Roused Anger and I believe you can effectively cycle your Rage 2/day from level 2... I wouldn't select Roused Anger as my 1st Rage Power though, but if you take a decently powerful 1/rage power at level 2 you could take Roused Anger at level 4.

I can't stress how much more benefit you will receive from Furious Focus at level 1 over Raging Vitality. Furious Focus benefits you on 100% of all attacks regardless if you're raging, where as Raging Vitality is more situational.

Unless your group is one of those that 'rests' after every single encounter you may find it tactically advantageous to not enter a rage at the start of every encounter - in which case you'd be even more crazy to select Raging Vitality over Furious Focus at level 1.

I had Heart of the Fields originally, but as I'll be Rage Cycling at level 9, I decided against it, opting for the bonus to Con from Heart of the Wilderness. :)

I'm playing this Barbarian a little different to how people normally would. I'm classing Rage as Focus instead, so if he can't hit an enemy normally, then he'll go into a Rage and when in a Rage, he'll still be his comedic self, but heavily focused on damaging everything in sight.

I don't for some reason, see a -1 to attacks for +3 damage a problem though. My Strength is already high, as is my BAB, so it'd be a +5 to hit normally, then +4 to hit with Power Attack. Add Rage and that ramps up. Chances are this guy won't be in for a couple of levels yet anyway, because my current (pathetically weak, but clever tactician) Cleric seems to survive well, staying out of the fray mostly and barely takes damage every session.

So, if I were to come in at say Level 4, he'd have a BAB of 4, Strength of 4, -2 atk +6 damage for Power Attack, so that's +6 to Power Attack without Rage. When Raging, that would turn into +10 and +8 when Power Attacking, so I don't think it's terrible. It just means when I fail to hit, I'll enter Rage and then (hopefully) be awesome. If this was starting from Level 1, I'd probably be more inclined to go this route otherwise. :)

Sczarni

You can look at it that way or look at it this way...

From levels 1 to 4 it's the equivalent of having Weapon Focus in ALL Simple and Martial weapons (and some exotic weapons depending on your race). From levels 4 to 5 it's equivalent to gaining Greater Weapon Focus with ALL Simple & Martial weapons (and some exotic weapons depending on your race).

Of course you're getting it 4 levels early and avoiding the other prerequisites as well...

From level 6 on it loses some of it's lustre as you only get the bonus on the first attack of the round, but it still remains incredibly valuable - especially as the penalty from Power Attack scales even higher.

Opposed to Raging Vitality which gives +1 temporary hit point per level.


Daryl MacLeod wrote:

You can look at it that way or look at it this way...

From levels 1 to 4 it's the equivalent of having Weapon Focus in ALL Simple and Martial weapons (and some exotic weapons depending on your race). From levels 4 to 5 it's equivalent to gaining Greater Weapon Focus with ALL Simple & Martial weapons (and some exotic weapons depending on your race).

Of course you're getting it 4 levels early and avoiding the other prerequisites as well...

From level 6 on it loses some of it's lustre as you only get the bonus on the first attack of the round, but it still remains incredibly valuable - especially as the penalty from Power Attack scales even higher.

Opposed to Raging Vitality which gives +1 temporary hit point per level.

This is true, but Raging Vitality is essential to my survival as I feel Raging whilst unconscious is pretty much a life safer. I can keep my temporary life up, which makes it pretty hard to kill my guy.

If I can find a way of putting Furious Focus in, then that'd be great, but I don't really see it as a great option for this build. Guarded Life, Renewed Vigor, Damage Reduction, Heart of the Wilderness and Raging Vitality etc are all things that will serve as a way to ensure I survive for the longest amount of time, possible.

If at later levels I have trouble hitting with normal attacks, I won't be Power Attacking anyway, but Rage will still help. I'm not saying Furious Focus isn't nice, because it really is, but I just feel I'd be giving up too much to include it, when everything else seems to work so well together in my new build.

Of course I might regret this decision, but I feel I can manage without Furious Focus. Still, I'll keep considering it. We had another session today and my current character lost a whole 2hp from a Boss battle. It's not looking like he'll die anytime soon, especially as there are now 5 of us playing and 6 characters in play (new guy unexpectedly joined us tonight. He's some kind of Half-Orc spell caster with an armoured Wolf, maybe a Battle Cleric or Wizard. All I know is he cast a spell and created a flaming weapon out of nothing).

Maybe in a group like this, a Barbarian like that would be overpowered anyway, but still, I can't wait to play this guy. :)

Sczarni

I agree with Lastoth that you may be going overboard on the trying not to die part - but if that's what you want I think you've optimized for it!

On the downside if things go well you won't ever get to utilize some of the things you've built your character for.


I second FF


Daryl MacLeod wrote:

I agree with Lastoth that you may be going overboard on the trying not to die part - but if that's what you want I think you've optimized for it!

On the downside if things go well you won't ever get to utilize some of the things you've built your character for.

Ah, I hope so! :D

I guess I've focused immensely on defense, but hopefully I'll still be able to deal decent damage per round.

Getting Vicious Stomp with Knockdown would have been a great combo and I'd have quite liked Improved Unarmed Strike, but this way at least I have a better chance of surviving and would have hopefully made a pretty much armourless Barbarian viable in combat with a good survival rate. :)

Thanks very much for the help!

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