Goblinworks, I beg you: Replace the bard


Pathfinder Online

51 to 84 of 84 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | next > last >>
Goblin Squad Member

insorrow wrote:

they seem to be weak end-game when scripted encounters specifically need a certain number of dps or whatever and a rogue or mage will "do the job better" .

2 points to respond to that,

1. having at least one bard is a huge boost to DPS of the entire party when you are talking about the bard adding a few damage to his own hits, and to everyone elses hits. Raising 10 peoples DPS by 10% is already one full person, and then everything else the bard himself doing good damage is a bonus.

2. you are right that versatility's value goes down on scripted predicted encounters. The question is when on earth has pathfinder online made any reference to endgame being about scripted encounters? The blog posts have only barely touched at the idea of repeated modules, and it has never even remotely been implied that they are intended to be the main end-game content. Actually more or less there has been no implication of anything that is defined as an "end-game" as something different than the normal gameplay up till then.

Silver Crusade Goblin Squad Member

Dervish Bard FTW. They have some seriously awesome abilities. Bards should not be removed since they are the jack of all trades. It gives people like a few of my friends a chance to experience many diffrent aspects at the same time.


Onishi wrote:
insorrow wrote:

they seem to be weak end-game when scripted encounters specifically need a certain number of dps or whatever and a rogue or mage will "do the job better" .

2 points to respond to that,

1. having at least one bard is a huge boost to DPS of the entire party when you are talking about the bard adding a few damage to his own hits, and to everyone elses hits. Raising 10 peoples DPS by 10% is already one full person, and then everything else the bard himself doing good damage is a bonus.

2. you are right that versatility's value goes down on scripted predicted encounters. The question is when on earth has pathfinder online made any reference to endgame being about scripted encounters? The blog posts have only barely touched at the idea of repeated modules, and it has never even remotely been implied that they are intended to be the main end-game content. Actually more or less there has been no implication of anything that is defined as an "end-game" as something different than the normal gameplay up till then.

the magic word in my sentence was "seem" .they seem to be weak.plenty of things can usually go wrong with hybrid classes and inexperienced players .to put it simply a noob can mess it up and then be frustrated about all the time he "lost " etc. since the game will have a model similar to eve i will not consider it time "lost" but expect a lot of threads like "omg balance bards" and jokes like "hunter's gear"

as for the instanced dungeons , i seem to get the idea that they will be scripted or modular .I am unaware if they will have a party limit or you can clear them with 5 or 50 .if the game is sandbox in the pve part there will be no party limit , then a bard could and should be useful since he can buff a lot of people and his value goes up.


Doctor Carrion wrote:
Bards are despised all over the world for the fact that they sing in battle. This is pretty much the lamest thing ever and I think a lot of people will get behind me on that.

I do not think this could be proven any more wrong. =)

Goblin Squad Member

insorrow wrote:

as for the instanced dungeons , i seem to get the idea that they will be scripted or modular .I am unaware if they will have a party limit or you can clear them with 5 or 50 .if the game is sandbox in the pve part there will be no party limit , then a bard could and should be useful since he can buff a lot of people and his value goes up.

Well judging that almost every type of PVE content implies very large amount of randomness. Dungeons, Lairs, hideouts etc... (see blog post "adventures in river kingdoms") all referred to as randomly appearing, and referring to different things that could be inside based on location rather than saying what is expected to be inside. So far the only content that has had any implication of it being scripted, is the modules, of which we really have no vague implications of what their roles are going to be in the game, or even any confirmation if they have a direct reward, a reputation reward or anything else of that type. Judging by Goblinworks reference to things that are in higher risk of PVP and less predictable situations as needed for the highest reward, I have a feeling that if modules have rewards they will likely be at the low/risk low/reward side of the scale.

That and of course the other solid end content is going to be PVP, which is about as far from scripted as it gets.

Goblin Squad Member

Modules are expensive stuff to produce. If they're low risk/low reward then players won't likely run them. and that means wasted development dollars.

However you see the concept "fitting" into the game is not going to matter as much as what the money tells them to do.

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

3 people marked this as a favorite.
Coldman wrote:
The Bard should be designed similarly to the dancer/musicians of Star Wars Galaxies....

I *can* guarantee there will be no dancing wookiees in this game.

Goblin Squad Member

Orthos wrote:
Doctor Carrion wrote:
Bards are despised all over the world for the fact that they sing in battle. This is pretty much the lamest thing ever and I think a lot of people will get behind me on that.
I do not think this could be proven any more wrong. =)

And guess who's team wins in an equally matched game? The one that has the singing bard.


Marthian wrote:
Orthos wrote:
Doctor Carrion wrote:
Bards are despised all over the world for the fact that they sing in battle. This is pretty much the lamest thing ever and I think a lot of people will get behind me on that.
I do not think this could be proven any more wrong. =)
And guess who's team wins in an equally matched game? The one that has the singing bard.

If it's evenly matched, wouldn't both teams have a bard? ;)

Goblin Squad Member

1 party with their extra player a bard

1 party with their extra a necromancer

bard starts singing.
bard dies.

Just an example, not an all case scenario for the bard fans frothing at the mouth over that point.

Raising the DPS or saves of the whole party by a few points is nice, but it's not always the best option.

Silver Crusade Goblin Squad Member

Vic Wertz wrote:
Coldman wrote:
The Bard should be designed similarly to the dancer/musicians of Star Wars Galaxies....
I *can* guarantee there will be no dancing wookiees in this game.

I think dancing dwarves fit the same "What the...." quotient.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

Blaeringr wrote:

1 party with their extra player a bard

1 party with their extra a necromancer

bard starts singing.
bard dies.

Just an example, not an all case scenario for the bard fans frothing at the mouth over that point.

Raising the DPS or saves of the whole party by a few points is nice, but it's not always the best option.

Necromancer starts casting.

Necromancer dies. Cleric dies.
Everyone else surrenders.

While everyone was looking at the bard, the monk and rogue got behind them. Sometimes the major value of the high-priority target is to hold all the attention of the enemy for a moment or three.

Goblin Squad Member

DeciusBrutus wrote:
Blaeringr wrote:

1 party with their extra player a bard

1 party with their extra a necromancer

bard starts singing.
bard dies.

Just an example, not an all case scenario for the bard fans frothing at the mouth over that point.

Raising the DPS or saves of the whole party by a few points is nice, but it's not always the best option.

Necromancer starts casting.

Necromancer dies. Cleric dies.
Everyone else surrenders.

While everyone was looking at the bard, the monk and rogue got behind them. Sometimes the major value of the high-priority target is to hold all the attention of the enemy for a moment or three.

Ceteris paribus. We were comparing two parties with the only difference being the bard vs something else. For a proper comparison model, whatever the monk and rogue in one party are doing, so are their counterparts in the other.

Plus you forgot that the necromancer was invisible before the fight started. His wail of the banshee knocked out most of the bard's party, even the bard who was also invisible before the fight started. So the monk is the only one trying to sneak (out in the open) behind the necromancer's party. While he's focusing on the necromancer, the necromancer's rogue and monk sneak up on the bard's monk.

Monk dies.
No one left to surrender.
Necromancer raises the corpses of the bard's party and dresses them in adorable butler costumes and celebrates his victory with an undead tea party.

Goblinworks Founder

Vic Wertz wrote:
Coldman wrote:
The Bard should be designed similarly to the dancer/musicians of Star Wars Galaxies....
I *can* guarantee there will be no dancing wookiees in this game.

What about dancing half-orcs?

Goblinworks Executive Founder

Blaeringr wrote:
DeciusBrutus wrote:
Blaeringr wrote:

1 party with their extra player a bard

1 party with their extra a necromancer

bard starts singing.
bard dies.

Just an example, not an all case scenario for the bard fans frothing at the mouth over that point.

Raising the DPS or saves of the whole party by a few points is nice, but it's not always the best option.

Necromancer starts casting.

Necromancer dies. Cleric dies.
Everyone else surrenders.

While everyone was looking at the bard, the monk and rogue got behind them. Sometimes the major value of the high-priority target is to hold all the attention of the enemy for a moment or three.

Ceteris paribus. We were comparing two parties with the only difference being the bard vs something else. For a proper comparison model, whatever the monk and rogue in one party are doing, so are their counterparts in the other.

Plus you forgot that the necromancer was invisible before the fight started. His wail of the banshee knocked out most of the bard's party, even the bard who was also invisible before the fight started. So the monk is the only one trying to sneak (out in the open) behind the necromancer's party. While he's focusing on the necromancer, the necromancer's rogue and monk sneak up on the bard's monk.

Monk dies.
No one left to surrender.
Necromancer raises the corpses of the bard's party and dresses them in adorable butler costumes and celebrates his victory with an undead tea party.

Why would the bard be invisible? He needs to be seen in order to use his perform abilities through the silence, which was set up because the bard knows enough about his high-level opponents to know what their openers are and how to negate them.

Conversely, the Wail targets the illusions of the party, and appears to kill them; or at the point where 9th level spells are used like candy, True Seeing is common enough that both visible illusions and invisibility are already null, and the Bard shoots the necromancer with an arrow that has silence cast on it as a readied action, ruining the spell.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

It's like a Schrodinger's Battle right now...

Silver Crusade Goblin Squad Member

Azten wrote:
It's like a Schrodinger's Battle right now...

And we know when those happen, Dr. Barbarian Am Barbiarian, PhD, will show up with his lance, Observed State, and end things.


Alexander_Damocles wrote:
Azten wrote:
It's like a Schrodinger's Battle right now...
And we know when those happen, Dr. Barbarian Am Barbiarian, PhD, will show up with his lance, Observed State, and end things.

There are a lot of casty people here...

Silver Crusade Goblin Squad Member

Azten wrote:
Alexander_Damocles wrote:
Azten wrote:
It's like a Schrodinger's Battle right now...
And we know when those happen, Dr. Barbarian Am Barbiarian, PhD, will show up with his lance, Observed State, and end things.
There are a lot of casty people here...

He'll fix that.


My favorite character was a bard. A bard who sang Chelish opera in the midst of battle. A bard who screamed a demilich to death. Whoever says that bards suck are DOIN IT RONG.


I call your wail of the banshee and raise you a shadowbard using countersong. At the level you're casting it it's not unhead of for a bard to have ~+30 to their primary Perform check, and if that check is keyboard, percussion, wind, string or sing, there is no way that the save is failed since your Perform check result replaces the saving throws of your allies so even on a natural 1 that's a ~31 Fort save.


Nat 1's are still a failure though.

Still, bards are such a great class I don't think matters.

Silver Crusade Goblin Squad Member

Azten wrote:

Nat 1's are still a failure though.

Still, bards are such a great class I don't think matters.

Nat 1's are not autofails. Only thing a nat 1 kills are attack rolls.


Alexander_Damocles wrote:
Azten wrote:

Nat 1's are still a failure though.

Still, bards are such a great class I don't think matters.

Nat 1's are not autofails. Only thing a nat 1 kills are attack rolls.

Automatic Failures and Successes

A natural 1 (the d20 comes up 1) on a saving throw is always a failure (and may cause damage to exposed items; see Items Surviving after a Saving Throw). A natural 20 (the d20 comes up 20) is always a success.

You're thinking of skill/ability checks.

Goblin Squad Member

More importantly, the discussion has degraded to a level of nonsense that rivals the usefulness of the bard.

Goblin Squad Member

Blaeringr wrote:
...a level of nonsense that rivals the usefulness of the bard.

Clever.

Goblin Squad Member

Doctor Carrion wrote:
Quandary wrote:

Back to the OP, PRPG Bardic Performance need not be Music or Singing - It can be Dance, Oratory, Comedy, etc... It just needs to fit within the 9 given categories for Performance, and be perceivable by your desired targets of the Bardic Performance. Countersong must be something that can be heard (so, probably Musical, though Comedy could count), and likewise Dirge of Doom... But unless the specific ability specifies, a non-Sonic Performance can definitely be used.

Alas, some of my opinions are extremely unpopular but I'd like to take this opportunity to say I absolutely adore the tactical niche of the bard. It's this performance stuff that irks me.

Comedy? Dance? These things seem even lamer than singing in battle.

I dance. You gain X buff.

I tell a joke. You gain Y buff.

I adore the archaeologist, I really do. When I first heard of pathfinder I thought to myself, "For the love of god I hope the bard either doesn't exist or has been stripped of this performance stuff." I certainly hope a non-performing bard appears soon after launch so I can allow the class in my clan.

I would like to point out that Spider-man tells jokes in the heat of battle, and it doesn't seem overly out of place. A good quip at the right time jacks up the morale of the party making the party more confident and motivated, thus the minor buffs.

Goblin Squad Member

@DeadlyPancake not to mention the rage buff on his foes.

Sczarni Goblin Squad Member

Ive been reading on this thread for quite a while and Ive seen a lot of good points made; however, I think if we take a step back for a moment it may help us see the big picture here. That being said, I think a lot of people here have conflicting ideas of what a bard really is and perhaps might need a little bit of an inspirational reminder. Per the core rulebook the description of a bard reads as follows:

Untold wonders and secrets exist for those skillful enough to discover them. Through cleverness, talent, and magic, these cunning few unravel the wiles of the world, becoming adept in the arts of persuasion, manipulation, and inspiration. Typically masters of one or many forms of artistry, bards possess an uncanny ability to know more than they should and use what they learn to keep themselves and their allies ever one step ahead of danger. Bards are quick-witted and captivating, and their skills might lead them down many paths, be they gamblers or jacks-of-all-trades, scholars or performers, leaders or scoundrels, or even all of the above. For bards, every day brings its own opportunities, adventures, and challenges, and only by bucking the odds, knowing the most, and being the best might they claim the treasures of each.

Role: Bards capably confuse and confound their foes while inspiring their allies to ever-greater daring. While accomplished woth both weapons and magic, the true strength of bards lies outside melee, where they can support their companions and undermine their foes without fear of interruptions to their performances.

Im not going to spend my time trying to argue everyone elses view of "what a bard should be...,"instead I want to point out what is already in place and translate it for people that don't understand the role-playing aspect of a role-playing game, and that although a good chunk of any mmo is oriented around combat, that doesnt mean that combat is all you should be worrying about. In fact I want less combat. Im getting really tired of cookie cutter mmo's that feature nothing but trash mobs and hours of grinding with a different skin everytime. Im ready for something more dynamic, more third demensional, aren't you?

Bards add a unique flavor to Golarion because they can channel the background of the world and give insight on all of the epic history. They have the ability to effectively inspire thier allies and demoralize foes giving anyone who travels with them the upper hand in any encounter. If you dont like the bard because you think they are weak or lame, fine... Dont play one... But don't deny other people the option just because you can't seem to grasp the concept of what it means to be a bard.

Goblin Squad Member

That gave me a thought.

Will we have a minor customization/tweak menu? Like when we make a character will we have access to some archetypes, because I do like the sound of some of the archetypes.

Goblin Squad Member

Malarious wrote:

That gave me a thought.

Will we have a minor customization/tweak menu? Like when we make a character will we have access to some archetypes, because I do like the sound of some of the archetypes.

Well at least from the descriptions it sounds like you will always be able to train in any archtype.

If you have started in one archtype and start training another, you will lose the option to get a capstone as the capstone requires all 20 merit badges to be earned consecutively, without any merit badges from a different archtype (though non-archtyped badges are safe).

One thing to note though, the GW staff have repeatedly emphasized that capstones themselves will not be drastically gamechanging. They have emphasized that they do not intend to be more powerful than normal abilities, and at least once Ryan has stated that they could be purely cosmetic (IE intended for bragging rights, without making characters stronger). In other words if you opt to train a different archtype and skip the capstone, you will not be permanantly gimped. The other abilities you get from other classes will likely be equally powerful, and unless you've spent the 27 years to max every archtype... then you haven't hit a point where you have nothing left to train.

Goblin Squad Member

Personally I detest bards, I just do not like the idea of 'magic music' but this is purely a personal thing. I've played bards before to try and get over my feelings but I still feel they're just a rog/sorc mix with the unnecessary introduction of 'whistle a tune to set the man on fire'.

That said, they are part of the core cannon so like my beloved clerics, will probably be in the initial release.

Silver Crusade Goblin Squad Member

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Doesn't have to be whistling a tune. Flavor it however you want, be it a hard edge master at arms berating his men to do better, or spider man throwing witty barbs at his enemies, its all the same. They speak, and others listen. It works in real life, and I have no problem with it being in a game.

Goblin Squad Member

Jamie Charlan wrote:

Put in Psionics.

The Dreamscarred stuff is already better balanced than the magic anyhow.

Bards are actually pretty cool though, ESPECIALLY if they put in all the archetypes. Very versatile characters all-around.

I would be able to die happy if Pathfinder Online had Soulknives. I don't care if it came out in an expansion, it'd be utterly awesome.

51 to 84 of 84 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Paizo / Licensed Products / Digital Games / Pathfinder Online / Goblinworks, I beg you: Replace the bard All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.
Recent threads in Pathfinder Online