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So not having sex is weird?


Off-Topic Discussions

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Exactly. Which is precisely why I never criticised her for her decision. It's her decision, and hers alone. What I criticised was the idea that many religious people have that pushing their children INTO such decisions could ever be okay. Parents who do SHOULD be condemned for their actions, as should churches that tell those parents that it's okay to behave in such a vomitous manner.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Sissyl wrote:
Exactly. Which is precisely why I never criticised her for her decision.

Oh I know, I was just borrowing you against some others in this thread. ;)

Quote:
What I criticised was the idea that many religious people have that pushing their children INTO such decisions could ever be okay. Parents who do SHOULD be condemned for their actions, as should churches that tell those parents that it's okay to behave in such a vomitous manner.

Now, I do want to make one distinction: it is a parent's responsibility to "push" (in some sense of the term) their children (when they're young) toward some things and away from others (have I used enough parenthetical qualifiers yet?) in order to teach them to be healthy, functional, not-a-dick people.

I think it's important, when we see people pushing an idea we don't agree with onto their children, to distinguish between "pushing an ideal", "pushing THAT ideal", and "pushing an ideal in X fashion".

If a parent, for instance, lovingly encourages their child to remain abstinent until marriage, then we must be sure not to lump them in with those who are "behaving in such a vomitous manner", as you put it.

I've heard of parents saying things like "If you ever do X, you're not my child anymore and you'd better find another place to live". That's bad. But there are also parents who educate their children about sex, and emphasize how happy they are that THEY waited (or perhaps that they're sorry they didn't), talk about the risks (STDs, pregnancy, etc), while still making it clear that they'll always be loved and accepted no matter what. Some people in this thread can't see past their disagreement with abstinence and/or religion to see the difference between those two types of parents, or perhaps even be willign to believe the latter even exists.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

I criticize the idea that staying a virgin until marriage is some sort of ideal that we should all aspire to. I criticize the social pressures that push people that way.

I criticize the idea that losing your virginity as soon as possible is always the best choice. I criticize the social pressures that push people that way.

Spoiler:
Though I haven't bothered to do so in this thread because no one was arguing for that position

If an individual wants to stay virgin or have sex with everything that moves*, that doesn't bother me at all. If they are a close friend and I am concerned about their behavior and/or motivations, I might raise the question.

*:
Assuming this does not violate local legal codes. Some restrictions may apply. Offer not valid in MT.


Sissyl wrote:

I said it before, so once more: Those who try to control their children's sexual development or strangle it while the children are too young to resist, suck. And not in a good way. It doesn't matter if you push your daughter to accept swearing her faith to you in a purity ball, or if you force your homosexual son to pray to stop being gay. EVERY person has the right to have a sexuality. Every person. Simple as that. Some may be in a situation where they can't act it out, but that's their cross to bear, and doesn't apply to consensual sex so don't claim gay sex is some kind of abomination in the eyes of God or whatever. It still doesn't give anyone any sort of right to change anyone else's sexuality, or stunt their sexual development.

I think an old Groo comic said it best: Too many people believe only in belief.

So, pray tell us, which parts of their child's behaviors and personality DO parents have the right to try and mold?


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Jiggy wrote:
I've heard of parents saying things like "If you ever do X, you're not my child anymore and you'd better find another place to live". That's bad. But there are also parents who educate their children about sex, and emphasize how happy they are that THEY waited (or perhaps that they're sorry they didn't), talk about the risks (STDs, pregnancy, etc), while still making it clear that they'll always be loved and accepted no matter what. Some people in this thread can't see past their disagreement with abstinence and/or religion to see the difference between those two types of parents, or perhaps even be willign to believe the latter even exists.

There are some. There are also some who jump in assuming any criticism of anything loosely attached to religion is based on hatred of religion not of problems with that specific practice.


Moro wrote:
Sissyl wrote:

I said it before, so once more: Those who try to control their children's sexual development or strangle it while the children are too young to resist, suck. And not in a good way. It doesn't matter if you push your daughter to accept swearing her faith to you in a purity ball, or if you force your homosexual son to pray to stop being gay. EVERY person has the right to have a sexuality. Every person. Simple as that. Some may be in a situation where they can't act it out, but that's their cross to bear, and doesn't apply to consensual sex so don't claim gay sex is some kind of abomination in the eyes of God or whatever. It still doesn't give anyone any sort of right to change anyone else's sexuality, or stunt their sexual development.

I think an old Groo comic said it best: Too many people believe only in belief.

So, pray tell us, which parts of their child's behaviors and personality DO parents have the right to try and mold?

Why don't you tell us, are there any limits to what parents can do to mold their child's personality?

Especially in the teenage years, when issues of sexuality usually come up.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

thejeff wrote:
There are some. There are also some who jump in assuming any criticism of anything loosely attached to religion is based on hatred of religion not of problems with that specific practice.

Yes, there are idiots on all sides. ;) Your previous post sums things up nicely, I think.

Shadow Lodge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
jiggy wrote:
Including when someone else's sexuality is "I want to wait" - none of us has the right to change/condemn it.

That's her decision, not her sexuality. If it was her sexuality being celibate wouldn't be hard.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

BigNorseWolf wrote:
jiggy wrote:
Including when someone else's sexuality is "I want to wait" - none of us has the right to change/condemn it.
That's her decision, not her sexuality. If it was her sexuality being celibate wouldn't be hard.

I... Okay, I guess I of all people shouldn't criticize your word-choice nitpick. Well done. ;)

I was meaning (and I think the person I was responding to was meaning) "sexuality" in a sense that was inclusive of (some) related decisions.


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Which parts a parent has the right to mold? Well, certainly nobody could criticize a parent for trying to mold a child into choosing not to be black, handicapped or female, right?

Get a grip. Children have a personality from day one. The only thing that can change a person's personality is trauma on the most severe scale, such as torture. You are not going to manage to change their personality, nor their sexuality, with anything less.

So... how will you choose to traumatize your child in order to mold him or her into what you want her to be?

If you were anything of a parent, you'd understand that your duty to protect, support and stand up for your child weighs infinitely heavier than your duty to your congregation that condemns your child's sexuality. Sorry to be blunt, but you can't escape that responsbility.

Qadira

Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
Sissyl wrote:


Children have a personality from day one. The only thing that can change a person's personality is trauma on the most severe scale, such as torture. You are not going to manage to change their personality, nor their sexuality, with anything less.

The personality of most young children I've been around can best be described as sociopathic. As adults, it is our responsibility to teach them the consequences of their actions and guide them into being better people - where 'better' is defined according to the norms of the particular culture one is a member of.

Personality is not an immutable absolute, it is formed by the experiences of the person to date.

Sexuality I will agree with you on, but not personality.

Both can be modified chemically or by brain trauma though.


Personality certainly changes as children mature. However differences between kids are apparent from very early on and often the same differences remain visible in their adult personalities.

They are in no sense blank slates which parents shape.

None of which is to say that upbringing and environment don't affect it either. People are complex.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

One might even say that a child starts with a raw personality, and it's the parents' (and other authority figures') responsibility to help refine that personality into something healthy rather than letting it take its own (inevitably maladaptive) course.


Jiggy wrote:
One might even say that a child starts with a raw personality, and it's the parents' (and other authority figures') responsibility to help refine that personality into something healthy rather than letting it take its own (inevitably maladaptive) course.

I don't think I agree that the it's own course will be inevitably maladaptive.

There's some truth in it technically. A child raised without human contact will inevitably be severely damaged, assuming he even survives.

Short of trauma on that level, the healthy approach could as easily be described as supporting the maturing of the child's personality as refining or directing its growth.

Attempting to shape a child's personality into what you want it to be is not always a good thing, even if the intentions are good. And the personality you're aiming for is a good one.

Note that I'm not talking about socialization and other basically adaptive behaviors. Many things have to be taught, but they can be learned and used by healthy or damaged personalities. Sociopaths, for instance, can be very charming and apparently socially adaptive.

Shadow Lodge

Jiggy wrote:
I... Okay, I guess I of all people shouldn't criticize your word-choice nitpick. Well done. ;)

Your approval fills me with shame.... :)

It wasn't supposed to be a nitpick, I think you just misunderstood a major point. Its one thing to genuinely feel like not doing it (your orientation is .. meh) and its another thing to have a great desire to do something and to deny it for some less than valid reasons.

Quote:
One might even say that a child starts with a raw personality, and it's the parents' (and other authority figures') responsibility to help refine that personality into something healthy rather than letting it take its own (inevitably maladaptive) course.

Sometimes the parents know best. Sometimes... not so much. I don't think people are inevitably doomed to a maladaptive outcome if left to their own devices.


brock wrote:
Sissyl wrote:


Children have a personality from day one. The only thing that can change a person's personality is trauma on the most severe scale, such as torture. You are not going to manage to change their personality, nor their sexuality, with anything less.

The personality of most young children I've been around can best be described as sociopathic. As adults, it is our responsibility to teach them the consequences of their actions and guide them into being better people - where 'better' is defined according to the norms of the particular culture one is a member of.

Personality is not an immutable absolute, it is formed by the experiences of the person to date.

Sexuality I will agree with you on, but not personality.

Both can be modified chemically or by brain trauma though.

I disagree. Sexuality is highly mutable and is definitely within the realm of things that a parent can and should help to shape. There is far more to a persons sexuality than simply orientation.


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By sexuality I mean preference. It is perhaps a poor word. I mean what excites someone, nothing else. The practice of it, sure, a parent can probably get someone to be a bit more considerate or careful as regards sex. What they can't do without drawn-out psychological torture is change the preferences of their child.

How far are you willing to go?


I think this Jiggy guy had better stop talking to thejeff. Where's Mr. Shifty? And Spanky? I want more grar!!

Spoiler:
Goblins do it in the street!

Shadow Lodge

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Eldritch horrors do it in the vast gulfs between the stars.


Burgomeister of Troll Town wrote:


Goblins do it in the street!

As long as you don't scare the horses.


Sissyl wrote:

By sexuality I mean preference. It is perhaps a poor word. I mean what excites someone, nothing else. The practice of it, sure, a parent can probably get someone to be a bit more considerate or careful as regards sex. What they can't do without drawn-out psychological torture is change the preferences of their child.

How far are you willing to go?

No, I see we are in agreement and I was misreading your statement, as I do not believe that a parent can shape sexual orientation at all.

I do however believe that many other facets of personality, many of which do connect directly or indirectly with a person's sexuality, can and should be shaped by parents.


Of course parents try to mold their children's attitudes, but I disagree that the following are therefore equivalent:

(A) Authoritative Approach: Parent provides all relevant information, explians what the consequences of decisions X, Y, and Z can be, and allows the child to make a cost-benefits analysis (when cognitively able). In summary: parent provides the tools for the child to make a good decision.

(B) Authoritarian Approach: Parent witholds information, relies on threats (either tangible, "darken my door" stuff, or intangible "you're defiled and will surely go to Hell" stuff), and in essence treats one path as a foregone conclusion. In summary: parent decides on behalf of the child.

Trying to conflate the two is a non-starter for any reasonable discussion, I would think.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Kirth Gersen wrote:
Trying to conflate the two is a non-starter for any reasonable discussion, I would think.

Agreed.

Grand Lodge

Sissyl wrote:

Learn what you are doing and act responsibly, and there are no "innumerable dangers and complications" to not being a virgin.

And as for the crabs, that is exactly the feeling I get when I tell people I am an atheist, and happy with my choice, on the internet. Forget getting away, the religious WILL criticize you for taking a different path.

Sure there are. For one, the partner(s) can either lie or honestly not know that they have some sort of issue. Many STD's do not have any determinal signs for some time after contracted. Some for years afterwards. Secondly, especially with youth, knowing something goes out the window when the heat of the moment takes over, and peer pressure and common myths, especially for males, far overshadows any ability to act responsibly in reality. Peole will always think they are informed and responsible, but, at least in America, it is all about shirking personal responsibility.

I'm coming home from a deployment where we had to deal with countless informed and responsible individuals, mostly civilian getting (and then spreading) various STD's from coilition forces, (who themseles have little to no sexual restrictions/morals and are very "informed" and "responcible"). Back in the states, it is less common overall, but the ame still holds true for the most part. Condoms, information, (even person to persona and "off the record") prevention, and treatment are all 100% free and easy to get, but very rarely used, at least until afterwards or where manditory.

We offer free condoms so close to the door that people call literally pop it open, reach in and grab without anyone seeing who they are and also offer free, individual education. It helps midigate only slightly whereas abstinance does almost completely. So I disagree completely with your assessment.

Andoran

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Jiggy wrote:

Sort of like how statistically, a child is more likely to be molested by his/her own family members than by any sort of clergy, yet in some circles the very phrase "Catholic priest" has become a euphemism for "child molestor", with no such correlations drawn about being a parent of a young child.

This is an off-topic anecdote. My mother, who is a lawyer who focuses in the juvenile system, has dealt with a lot of sexual abuse cases. It seems as though a majority of those cases are boyfriends of the mother who perp on the kids. Maybe she just happens to get a lot of these cases or maybe they just stand out so distinctly from the rest. (There are also a lot of older siblings perping on younger siblings, though in those situations, abuse and/or serious mental health issues are a common theme).


Charlie Bell wrote:
When your local Episcopalians and Baptists start burning the faces off their daughters, then you can call it the "Western Taliban."

Caveat -Below is simply a reply to the above, and is not intentioned to become a broader discussion point. I'm not intending to get into a debate about it, nor representing that such views are the views of all members of particular groups. It is also not intended to make any assertion that any/all religions are wrongbadfun.

Bit late by then though isn't it?

Better to point out NOW what they are doing than let it go on unchecked.

Western Taliban they are...

There are always new reports about Muslims using IEDs to terrorize and kill Americans in Iraq, but now we could have a case of Christian terrorists using IEDs to terrorize and try to kill Americans in Texas — at an abortion clinic, to be specific. Law enforcement is treating the matter seriously, which is good, but I wonder if those who regularly complain about Muslim extremism and terrorism will treat this incident in a similar manner, or if they will start making excuses that they never accept on behalf of Muslims.

"Dirka dirka, brother."

Wasn't hard to find examples..


"Devil's Advocate" wrote:
Condoms, information, (even person to persona and "off the record") prevention, and treatment are all 100% free and easy to get, but very rarely used, at least until afterwards or where manditory.

Or where they're an accepted part of society, rather than an "add-on" that 3/4 of the population views as a secret tool of the devil. Check out northern Europe, and their sexual permissiveness, and their far LOWER rates of STDs and teen pregnancy.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

[Books a flight to northern Europe.]


We have goblins doing it in the streets. =)


Sissyl wrote:
We have goblins doing it in the streets. =)

As long as they do it safely... Uh, wait, goblins and safely in one sentence? Something is seriously wrong.

Qadira

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Dogbladewarrior wrote:
Darkwing Duck wrote:

If her parents are going to have to take care of the grandkid, then it is their right.

Disagree. I don't believe a father has the right to dictate his daughter's sexuality to her under any circumstances. He can advise, but dictate? No.

How do you figure? I have 3 kids, it is not only my right but my duty to dictate certain aspects of their lives. This is not just limited to their diet(proper nutrition), bed time(getting enough sleep), and so on, but damn well will include such things as sex that can affect them for the rest of their lives. That's kinda what parents do, protect their kids from making stupid choices that can blow up in their faces.

Now once they're grown and hopefully mature, they can make their own choices. I can but hope that they learned something while under my roof, including that Dad will always be there for them when they do screw up.


Moorluck wrote:
Dogbladewarrior wrote:
Darkwing Duck wrote:

If her parents are going to have to take care of the grandkid, then it is their right.

Disagree. I don't believe a father has the right to dictate his daughter's sexuality to her under any circumstances. He can advise, but dictate? No.

How do you figure? I have 3 kids, it is not only my right but my duty to dictate certain aspects of their lives. This is not just limited to their diet(proper nutrition), bed time(getting enough sleep), and so on, but damn well will include such things as sex that can affect them for the rest of their lives. That's kinda what parents do, protect their kids from making stupid choices that can blow up in their faces.

Now once they're grown and hopefully mature, they can make their own choices. I can but hope that they learned something while under my roof, including that Dad will always be there for them when they do screw up.

I don't think that he was saying the father shouldn't have a say in whether the kid has sex while still a kid. Just that the father should not attempt to force his kid to be straight. Or gay for that matter. Or asexual, bisexual or any other sexual.

You can try to teach them good sense and caution about how they express it, but trying to force changes in the basic sexual orientation won't work and is likely to cause a lot of damage in the process.

Qadira

thejeff wrote:
Moorluck wrote:
Dogbladewarrior wrote:
Darkwing Duck wrote:

If her parents are going to have to take care of the grandkid, then it is their right.

Disagree. I don't believe a father has the right to dictate his daughter's sexuality to her under any circumstances. He can advise, but dictate? No.

How do you figure? I have 3 kids, it is not only my right but my duty to dictate certain aspects of their lives. This is not just limited to their diet(proper nutrition), bed time(getting enough sleep), and so on, but damn well will include such things as sex that can affect them for the rest of their lives. That's kinda what parents do, protect their kids from making stupid choices that can blow up in their faces.

Now once they're grown and hopefully mature, they can make their own choices. I can but hope that they learned something while under my roof, including that Dad will always be there for them when they do screw up.

I don't think that he was saying the father shouldn't have a say in whether the kid has sex while still a kid. Just that the father should not attempt to force his kid to be straight. Or gay for that matter. Or asexual, bisexual or any other sexual.

You can try to teach them good sense and caution about how they express it, but trying to force changes in the basic sexual orientation won't work and is likely to cause a lot of damage in the process.

Now that I wholly agree with.


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Moorluck wrote:
How do you figure? I have 3 kids, it is not only my right but my duty to dictate certain aspects of their lives.

As is your duty to protect them by making sure they have good information to operate with when out there in the real world and away from your supervision.

Tell them how its going to be all you like, and I don't totally disagree with you, but make sure you temper their obedience with some wisdom.

Qadira

Shifty wrote:
Moorluck wrote:
How do you figure? I have 3 kids, it is not only my right but my duty to dictate certain aspects of their lives.

As is your duty to protect them by making sure they have good information to operate with when out there in the real world and away from your supervision.

Tell them how its going to be all you like, and I don't totally disagree with you, but make sure you temper their obedience with some wisdom.

It is a given that as their father I try to explain the why behind my rules. Otherwise they may go crazy as soon as they're out of my sight. :P

Qadira

To the Duck, if I misread your post then I apologize for coming across as hostile.


Moorluck wrote:


It is a given that as their father I try to explain the why behind my rules. Otherwise they may go crazy as soon as they're out of my sight. :P

So many people don't, so I don't take for granted that people DO, as much as the idea would otherwise be common sense (a rare commodity apparently).

Qadira

Shifty wrote:
Moorluck wrote:


It is a given that as their father I try to explain the why behind my rules. Otherwise they may go crazy as soon as they're out of my sight. :P
So many people don't, so I don't take for granted that people DO, as much as the idea would otherwise be common sense (a rare commodity apparently).

Yeah... it ain't as common as it's name implies.

I do tend to forget that to most of the posters here I'm a faceless stranger and y'all don't know me from Adam.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
HangarFlying wrote:
Jiggy wrote:

Sort of like how statistically, a child is more likely to be molested by his/her own family members than by any sort of clergy, yet in some circles the very phrase "Catholic priest" has become a euphemism for "child molestor", with no such correlations drawn about being a parent of a young child.

This is an off-topic anecdote. My mother, who is a lawyer who focuses in the juvenile system, has dealt with a lot of sexual abuse cases. It seems as though a majority of those cases are boyfriends of the mother who perp on the kids. Maybe she just happens to get a lot of these cases or maybe they just stand out so distinctly from the rest. (There are also a lot of older siblings perping on younger siblings, though in those situations, abuse and/or serious mental health issues are a common theme).

That is some of my legal practice too. It is the most common sort of abuse. The stranger who kidnaps is far less common than the sort of people that have regular access to children not their own such as boyfriends or extended relatives.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
Don Juan de Doodlebug wrote:
[Books a flight to northern Europe.]

[Hides in Doodlebug's luggage] Hey, what's this glass thing?


Get out of my stuff! Book your own flight!

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