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Why fighters suck


Pathfinder RPG General Discussion

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Bob_Loblaw wrote:
Mounted fighters can work if you are able to use Leadership or if you are able to buy/rear a mount of your own.

Yes but leadership is not always allowed. I think paizo should make an archetye that trade one or to fighter bonus feat for an animal companion, that way it would stack with dragoon or roughrider.


I'd like to see some comments on these builds, like Ashiel has done.

It helps to notice subtleties we may miss. Like, which are the moest efficient tactics, how does it fare against different enemies, what does he do in social encounters... this kinda of stuff.

It also helps understanding what your build hoped to achieve by that level, what was its goals and did it do to reach them.

Maybe you could add a few pointers after each level build. Some basic stuff.

What is its strategy against multiple enemies?
What is its strategy against one big enemy?
What is its strategy against casters?

On a different not, I'd like to see a Gunslinger here. See how well they fare against these fighters, rangers and paladins...

Laslty, I must there really should be some way for fighters to get scaling mounts without resorting to Leadership.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Here is a dwarf that loves simply being a dwarf. He doesn't really care about much else. His weapons are typical dwarf weapons and he loves heavy armor. He doesn't care that it encumbers him.

His tactics are simple. Kor likes to keep things simple not because he can't handle complicated but because he doesn't want to confuse the enemy too much. They need a "fair" chance to be able to fight superior races, like dwarves. He prefers to open up with his his crossbow until the enemy gets close, or he runs out of ammo then he attacks with whichever weapon is appropriate (slashing, bludgeoning, or piercing). He prefers his waraxe because it's big and dwarven. He would never be caught using a greataxe. That's something orcs needs to be almost as good as dwarves.

He spends the first few levels trying to get along with non-dwarves but really has a hard time of it. As he gains some experience, he begins to understand that not everyone appreciates the awesomeness of dwarves. That's ok with him. He doesn't mind being superior. He has learned that telling people how superior he is doesn't get him the best rooms in town or the best deals. Non-dwarves are so picky.

Level 1

Spoiler:

KOS CR 1/2
Male Dwarf Fighter (Crossbowman) 1
LN Medium Humanoid (Dwarf)
Init +4; Senses Darkvision (60 feet); Perception +3
--------------------
DEFENSE
--------------------
AC 18, touch 12, flat-footed 16. . (+5 armor, +1 shield, +2 Dex)
hp 12 (1d10+2)
Fort +4, Ref +2, Will +3
Defensive Abilities Defensive Training; SR 6
--------------------
OFFENSE
--------------------
Spd 20 ft.
Melee Mattock +3 (2d4+3/20/x4) and
. . Waraxe, Dwarven +2 (1d10+3/20/x3) and
. . Warhammer +3 (1d8+2/20/x3)
Ranged Crossbow, Light +3 (1d8/19-20/x2)
--------------------
STATISTICS
--------------------
Str 15, Dex 14, Con 15, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 6
Base Atk +1; CMB +3; CMD 15
Feats Point Blank Shot, Rapid Reload: Crossbow, Light
Traits Indomitable Faith, Reactionary
Skills Acrobatics -2, Climb -3, Diplomacy -1, Escape Artist -3, Fly -3, Perception +3, Ride -3, Stealth -3, Swim -3
Languages Common, Dwarven
SQ Greed, Hatred, Rock Stepper, Slow and Steady, Stability
Combat Gear Bolts, Crossbow (20), Buckler, Crossbow, Light, Mattock, Scale Mail, Waraxe, Dwarven, Warhammer;
--------------------
TRACKED RESOURCES
--------------------
Bolts, Crossbow - 0/20
--------------------
SPECIAL ABILITIES
--------------------
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Defensive Training (+4) +4 dodge bonus to AC against monsters of the Giant subtype.
Greed +2 to Appraise checks to determine the price of nonmagical goods that contain precious metals or gemstones.
Hatred +1 racial bonus to attacks against Orcs and Goblinoids.
Point Blank Shot +1 to attack and damage rolls with ranged weapons at up to 30 feet.
Rapid Reload: Crossbow, Light You can reload fast with one type of Crossbow.
Rock Stepper Ignore rubble, broken ground, or steep stairs when taking 5 ft step.
Slow and Steady Your base speed is never modified by encumbrance.
Spell Resistance (6) You have Spell Resistance.
Stability +4 to avoid being bull rushed or tripped while standing.

Level 2

Spoiler:

KOS #2 CR 1
Male Dwarf Fighter (Crossbowman) 2
LN Medium Humanoid (Dwarf)
Init +4; Senses Darkvision (60 feet); Perception +4
--------------------
DEFENSE
--------------------
AC 18, touch 10, flat-footed 18. . (+7 armor, +1 shield)
hp 20 (2d10+4)
Fort +5, Ref +2, Will +3
Defensive Abilities Bravery +1, Defensive Training; SR 7
--------------------
OFFENSE
--------------------
Spd 20 ft.
Melee Mattock +4 (2d4+3/20/x4) and
. . Waraxe, Dwarven +3 (1d10+3/20/x3) and
. . Warhammer +4 (1d8+2/20/x3)
Ranged Masterwork Crossbow, Light +4 (1d8+2/19-20/x2)
--------------------
STATISTICS
--------------------
Str 15, Dex 14, Con 15, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 6
Base Atk +2; CMB +4; CMD 14
Feats Deadly Aim -1/+2, Point Blank Shot, Rapid Reload: Crossbow, Light
Traits Indomitable Faith, Reactionary
Skills Acrobatics -3, Climb -5, Diplomacy +0, Escape Artist -5, Fly -5, Perception +4, Ride -5, Stealth -5, Swim -5
Languages Common, Dwarven
SQ Greed, Hatred, Rock Stepper, Slow and Steady, Stability
Combat Gear Bolts, Crossbow (20), Buckler, Masterwork Crossbow, Light, Masterwork Lamellar, iron, Mattock, Waraxe, Dwarven, Warhammer;
--------------------
TRACKED RESOURCES
--------------------
Bolts, Crossbow - 0/20
--------------------
SPECIAL ABILITIES
--------------------
Bravery +1 (Ex) +1 Will save vs. Fear
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Deadly Aim -1/+2 Trade a penalty to ranged attacks for a bonus to ranged damage.
Defensive Training (+4) +4 dodge bonus to AC against monsters of the Giant subtype.
Greed +2 to Appraise checks to determine the price of nonmagical goods that contain precious metals or gemstones.
Hatred +1 racial bonus to attacks against Orcs and Goblinoids.
Point Blank Shot +1 to attack and damage rolls with ranged weapons at up to 30 feet.
Rapid Reload: Crossbow, Light You can reload fast with one type of Crossbow.
Rock Stepper Ignore rubble, broken ground, or steep stairs when taking 5 ft step.
Slow and Steady Your base speed is never modified by encumbrance.
Spell Resistance (7) You have Spell Resistance.
Stability +4 to avoid being bull rushed or tripped while standing.

Level 3

Spoiler:

KOS #3 CR 2
Male Dwarf Fighter (Crossbowman) 3
LN Medium Humanoid (Dwarf)
Init +4; Senses Darkvision (60 feet); Perception +5
--------------------
DEFENSE
--------------------
AC 21, touch 10, flat-footed 21. . (+9 armor, +1 shield, +1 natural)
hp 28 (3d10+6)
Fort +5, Ref +3, Will +4
Defensive Abilities Bravery +1, Defensive Training; SR 8
--------------------
OFFENSE
--------------------
Spd 20 ft.
Melee Masterwork Waraxe, Dwarven +5 (1d10+3/20/x3) and
. . Mattock +5 (2d4+3/20/x4) and
. . Warhammer +5 (1d8+2/20/x3)
Ranged Masterwork Crossbow, Light +5 (1d8+2/19-20/x2)
Special Attacks Deadshot +1
--------------------
STATISTICS
--------------------
Str 15, Dex 14, Con 15, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 6
Base Atk +3; CMB +5; CMD 15
Feats Deadly Aim -1/+2, Ironhide, Point Blank Shot, Rapid Reload: Crossbow, Light
Traits Indomitable Faith, Reactionary
Skills Acrobatics -2, Climb -5, Diplomacy +1, Escape Artist -5, Fly -5, Perception +5, Ride -5, Stealth -5, Swim -5
Languages Common, Dwarven
SQ Greed, Hatred, Rock Stepper, Slow and Steady, Stability
Combat Gear +1 Half Plate, Bolts, Crossbow (20), Buckler, Masterwork Crossbow, Light, Masterwork Waraxe, Dwarven, Mattock, Warhammer;
--------------------
TRACKED RESOURCES
--------------------
Bolts, Crossbow - 0/20
--------------------
SPECIAL ABILITIES
--------------------
Bravery +1 (Ex) +1 Will save vs. Fear
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Deadly Aim -1/+2 Trade a penalty to ranged attacks for a bonus to ranged damage.
Deadshot +1 (Ex) +1 to damage with a readied crossbow.
Defensive Training (+4) +4 dodge bonus to AC against monsters of the Giant subtype.
Greed +2 to Appraise checks to determine the price of nonmagical goods that contain precious metals or gemstones.
Hatred +1 racial bonus to attacks against Orcs and Goblinoids.
Ironhide Your skin is thicker and more resilient than that of most of your people.
Point Blank Shot +1 to attack and damage rolls with ranged weapons at up to 30 feet.
Rapid Reload: Crossbow, Light You can reload fast with one type of Crossbow.
Rock Stepper Ignore rubble, broken ground, or steep stairs when taking 5 ft step.
Slow and Steady Your base speed is never modified by encumbrance.
Spell Resistance (8) You have Spell Resistance.
Stability +4 to avoid being bull rushed or tripped while standing.

Level 4

Spoiler:

KOS #4 CR 3
Male Dwarf Fighter (Crossbowman) 4
LN Medium Humanoid (Dwarf)
Init +4; Senses Darkvision (60 feet); Perception +6
--------------------
DEFENSE
--------------------
AC 21, touch 10, flat-footed 21. . (+9 armor, +1 shield, +1 natural)
hp 36 (4d10+8)
Fort +7, Ref +4, Will +5
Defensive Abilities Bravery +1, Defensive Training; SR 9
--------------------
OFFENSE
--------------------
Spd 20 ft.
Melee Masterwork Waraxe, Dwarven +7 (1d10+4/20/x3) and
. . Mattock +7 (2d4+4/20/x4) and
. . Warhammer +7 (1d8+3/20/x3)
Ranged +1 Crossbow, Light +6 (1d8+5/19-20/x2)
Special Attacks Deadshot +1
--------------------
STATISTICS
--------------------
Str 16, Dex 14, Con 15, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 6
Base Atk +4; CMB +7; CMD 17
Feats Deadly Aim -2/+4, Ironhide, Point Blank Shot, Rapid Reload: Crossbow, Light, Weapon Focus: Crossbow, Light
Traits Indomitable Faith, Reactionary
Skills Acrobatics -1, Climb -4, Diplomacy +2, Escape Artist -5, Fly -5, Perception +6, Ride -5, Stealth -5, Swim -4
Languages Common, Dwarven
SQ Greed, Hatred, Rock Stepper, Slow and Steady, Stability
Combat Gear +1 Crossbow, Light, +1 Half Plate, Bolts, Crossbow (20), Buckler, Masterwork Waraxe, Dwarven, Mattock, Warhammer; Other Gear Cloak of Resistance, +1
--------------------
TRACKED RESOURCES
--------------------
Bolts, Crossbow - 0/20
--------------------
SPECIAL ABILITIES
--------------------
Bravery +1 (Ex) +1 Will save vs. Fear
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Deadly Aim -2/+4 Trade a penalty to ranged attacks for a bonus to ranged damage.
Deadshot +1 (Ex) +1 to damage with a readied crossbow.
Defensive Training (+4) +4 dodge bonus to AC against monsters of the Giant subtype.
Greed +2 to Appraise checks to determine the price of nonmagical goods that contain precious metals or gemstones.
Hatred +1 racial bonus to attacks against Orcs and Goblinoids.
Ironhide Your skin is thicker and more resilient than that of most of your people.
Point Blank Shot +1 to attack and damage rolls with ranged weapons at up to 30 feet.
Rapid Reload: Crossbow, Light You can reload fast with one type of Crossbow.
Rock Stepper Ignore rubble, broken ground, or steep stairs when taking 5 ft step.
Slow and Steady Your base speed is never modified by encumbrance.
Spell Resistance (9) You have Spell Resistance.
Stability +4 to avoid being bull rushed or tripped while standing.
[spoiler]

Level 5
[spoiler]
KOS #5 CR 4
Male Dwarf Fighter (Crossbowman) 5
LN Medium Humanoid (Dwarf)
Init +5; Senses Darkvision (60 feet); Perception +10
--------------------
DEFENSE
--------------------
AC 22, touch 10, flat-footed 22. . (+9 armor, +2 shield, +1 natural)
hp 44 (5d10+10)
Fort +7, Ref +5, Will +5
Defensive Abilities Bravery +1, Defensive Training; SR 10
--------------------
OFFENSE
--------------------
Spd 20 ft.
Melee Masterwork Waraxe, Dwarven +8 (1d10+4/20/x3) and
. . Mattock +8 (2d4+4/20/x4) and
. . Warhammer +8 (1d8+3/20/x3)
Ranged +1 Crossbow, Light +9 (1d8+6/19-20/x2)
Special Attacks Deadshot +1
--------------------
STATISTICS
--------------------
Str 16, Dex 14/16, Con 15, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 6
Base Atk +5; CMB +8; CMD 18
Feats Cosmopolitan: Diplomacy, Perception, Deadly Aim -2/+4, Ironhide, Point Blank Shot, Rapid Reload: Crossbow, Light, Weapon Focus: Crossbow, Light
Traits Indomitable Faith, Reactionary
Skills Acrobatics +2, Climb -3, Diplomacy +6, Escape Artist -3, Fly -3, Perception +10, Ride -3, Stealth -3, Swim -3
Languages Common, Draconic, Dwarven, Giant
SQ Greed, Hatred, Rock Stepper, Slow and Steady, Stability
Combat Gear +1 Buckler, +1 Crossbow, Light, +1 Half Plate, Bolts, Crossbow (20), Masterwork Waraxe, Dwarven, Mattock, Warhammer; Other Gear Belt of Incredible Dexterity, +2, Cloak of Resistance, +1
--------------------
TRACKED RESOURCES
--------------------
Bolts, Crossbow - 0/20
--------------------
SPECIAL ABILITIES
--------------------
Bravery +1 (Ex) +1 Will save vs. Fear
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Deadly Aim -2/+4 Trade a penalty to ranged attacks for a bonus to ranged damage.
Deadshot +1 (Ex) +1 to damage with a readied crossbow.
Defensive Training (+4) +4 dodge bonus to AC against monsters of the Giant subtype.
Greed +2 to Appraise checks to determine the price of nonmagical goods that contain precious metals or gemstones.
Hatred +1 racial bonus to attacks against Orcs and Goblinoids.
Ironhide Your skin is thicker and more resilient than that of most of your people.
Point Blank Shot +1 to attack and damage rolls with ranged weapons at up to 30 feet.
Rapid Reload: Crossbow, Light You can reload fast with one type of Crossbow.
Rock Stepper Ignore rubble, broken ground, or steep stairs when taking 5 ft step.
Slow and Steady Your base speed is never modified by encumbrance.
Spell Resistance (10) You have Spell Resistance.
Stability +4 to avoid being bull rushed or tripped while standing.

Level 6

Spoiler:

KOS #6 CR 5
Male Dwarf Fighter (Crossbowman) 6
LN Medium Humanoid (Dwarf)
Init +5; Senses Darkvision (60 feet); Perception +11
--------------------
DEFENSE
--------------------
AC 25, touch 11, flat-footed 24. . (+11 armor, +2 shield, +1 Dex, +1 natural)
hp 52 (6d10+12)
Fort +8, Ref +6, Will +6
Defensive Abilities Bravery +2, Defensive Training; SR 11
--------------------
OFFENSE
--------------------
Spd 20 ft.
Melee Masterwork Waraxe, Dwarven +9/+4 (1d10+4/20/x3) and
. . Mattock +9/+4 (2d4+4/20/x4) and
. . Warhammer +9/+4 (1d8+3/20/x3)
Ranged +1 Crossbow, Light +10/+5 (1d8+8/19-20/x2)
Special Attacks Deadshot +1
--------------------
STATISTICS
--------------------
Str 16, Dex 14/16, Con 15, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 6
Base Atk +6; CMB +9; CMD 20
Feats Cosmopolitan: Diplomacy, Perception, Deadly Aim -2/+4, Ironhide, Point Blank Shot, Rapid Reload: Crossbow, Light, Weapon Focus: Crossbow, Light, Weapon Specialization: Crossbow, Light
Traits Indomitable Faith, Reactionary
Skills Acrobatics +4, Climb -2, Diplomacy +7, Escape Artist -2, Fly -2, Perception +11, Ride -2, Stealth -2, Swim -2
Languages Common, Draconic, Dwarven, Giant
SQ Greed, Hatred, Rock Stepper, Slow and Steady, Stability
Combat Gear +1 Buckler, +1 Crossbow, Light, +2 Full Plate, Bolts, Crossbow (20), Masterwork Waraxe, Dwarven, Mattock, Warhammer; Other Gear Belt of Incredible Dexterity, +2, Cloak of Resistance, +1
--------------------
TRACKED RESOURCES
--------------------
Bolts, Crossbow - 0/20
--------------------
SPECIAL ABILITIES
--------------------
Bravery +2 (Ex) +2 Will save vs. Fear
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Deadly Aim -2/+4 Trade a penalty to ranged attacks for a bonus to ranged damage.
Deadshot +1 (Ex) +1 to damage with a readied crossbow.
Defensive Training (+4) +4 dodge bonus to AC against monsters of the Giant subtype.
Greed +2 to Appraise checks to determine the price of nonmagical goods that contain precious metals or gemstones.
Hatred +1 racial bonus to attacks against Orcs and Goblinoids.
Ironhide Your skin is thicker and more resilient than that of most of your people.
Point Blank Shot +1 to attack and damage rolls with ranged weapons at up to 30 feet.
Rapid Reload: Crossbow, Light You can reload fast with one type of Crossbow.
Rock Stepper Ignore rubble, broken ground, or steep stairs when taking 5 ft step.
Slow and Steady Your base speed is never modified by encumbrance.
Spell Resistance (11) You have Spell Resistance.
Stability +4 to avoid being bull rushed or tripped while standing.


Turret likes to fight larger creatures. The bigger the better. He loves being small and covered in metal. It's a bit unusual for a halfling but he's seen how well it works. However, being small has disadvantages and he needs to remember that he's not quite as strong as the bigger races.

His preferred tactics are to use his sling staff and 5-foot step each round until the enemy is on him or he is up close. If he is fighting a single opponent, this can work well. If he needs to, he can sling and run. He doesn't mind being in the thick of things or being at a distance. So long as he's fighting. He has some ideas of some fun things he can do in the future. He's looking forward to just flinging stone and insults in rapid succession.

When not in battle he enjoys sitting back with a glass of water. He isn't a drinker or smoker. He doesn't see anything wrong with it, he just doesn't want to waste his time or money on those things.

Turret is generally quiet unless he is in battle. Usually he lets others do the speaking for him. However, when he needs to he can get his message across either politely or with a bit more force. People get a bit unnerved when a halfling explains where the next stone is going and how it might help with constipation.


Spruce Zypherleaf grew up around rangers and druids. He has a lot of respect for what they can do. He doesn't feel the connection with the wilderness like his brothers though. He understands the wilderness but he doesn't connect with it emotionally. That hasn't stopped him from picking up on some of the skills of the wild.

He is not a great tracker yet, and he may never be. He is able to get around the wilderness though and knows a lot about the lay of the land. He has studied the natural creatures that call the wilderness their home. His best friend is a guard dog he raised from a pup called Mynok. He doesn't recall where he heard the name but he's pretty sure that it is from a legend his parents told him about a land far away and long ago.

Spruce gets around the land fairly quickly and easily. He has learned how to minimize the effects of the more difficult terrain and as he progresses, he will have fewer problems with the more challenging terrains.

This knowledge of how to get around has helped him in battle too. He knows that he can't stand toe-to-toe for long. A few good hits will end his career quickly. He prefers to get out of danger quickly. By moving around the field, he forces the enemy to come to him. This gives him more options. If the enemy isn't too tough, he can take a few quick shots and end the fight fast. If the enemy is a bit harder, he can strike and move, keeping the enemy at a single action each round. His plan is to figure out how to deal more damage with a single hit if he can.


Nicos wrote:
Bob_Loblaw wrote:
Mounted fighters can work if you are able to use Leadership or if you are able to buy/rear a mount of your own.
Yes but leadership is not always allowed. I think paizo should make an archetye that trade one or to fighter bonus feat for an animal companion, that way it would stack with dragoon or roughrider.

I agree but until then we don't have much of a choice. To be fair, I think that it's ok for other classes to be better at mounted combat. It gives them something to be good at too. Everyone needs a niche.


Here is a core-only mounted fighter. I plan on using only his fighter bonus feats for his fighter abilities and his character feats to enhance the rest of him. I really wish there was a way to get a good mount. I will have to take Leadership especially because I am limiting him to core only.

Level 1

Spoiler:

USHTARAK CR 1/2
Male Half-Orc Fighter 1
CN Medium Humanoid (Orc)
Init +4; Senses Darkvision (60 feet); Perception +1
--------------------
DEFENSE
--------------------
AC 15, touch 10, flat-footed 15. . (+4 armor, +1 shield)
hp 11 (1d10+1)
Fort +3, Ref +0, Will +1
--------------------
OFFENSE
--------------------
Spd 20 ft.
Melee Dagger +4 (1d4+3/19-20/x2) and
. . Greataxe +3 (1d12+4/20/x3) and
. . Greatclub +4 (1d10+4/20/x2) and
. . Unarmed Strike +4 (1d3+3/20/x2)
Ranged Longbow +1 (1d8/20/x3) and
. . Sling +1 (1d4+3/20/x2)
--------------------
STATISTICS
--------------------
Str 17, Dex 10, Con 13, Int 14, Wis 12, Cha 8
Base Atk +1; CMB +4; CMD 14
Feats Animal Affinity, Improved Initiative
Skills Acrobatics -4, Climb -1, Escape Artist -4, Fly -4, Handle Animal +5, Intimidate +5, Knowledge (Dungeoneering) +6, Knowledge (Engineering) +6, Ride +2, Stealth -4, Swim -1
Languages Abyssal, Common, Draconic, Orc
SQ Orc Ferocity (1/day)
Combat Gear Arrows (40), Buckler, Dagger (4), Greataxe, Greatclub, Hide, Longbow, Sling;
--------------------
TRACKED RESOURCES
--------------------
Arrows - 0/40
Dagger - 0/4
Orc Ferocity (1/day) - 0/1
--------------------
SPECIAL ABILITIES
--------------------
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Orc Ferocity (1/day) 1/day, when brought below 0 HP but not killed, you can fight on for 1 more round as if disabled. The next round, unless brought to at least 0 HP, you immediately fall unconscious and begin dying.
--------------------
Ushtarak was raised by his mother but takes after his father. He relishes combat and seeks it out when he can. He doesn't really like himself very much but he doesn't have to. As long as he's in an adventuring party that accepts what he can do, everything is just fine.

He likes to use a variety of weapons, sometimes switching between different weapons just because he can. He learns quickly which weapons affect which opponents and will change as appropriate.

He generally uses his knowledge of animals to find the best mounts he can. He tends to go through them quickly but that doesn't really bother him too much. If the horse dies in battle, he will have something to eat later. There's always an upside.

He isn't subtle at all. He speaks his mind and tends to get his way. He doesn't make friends well but he doesn't really care about that. He just wants a share of the loot.

Level 2

Spoiler:

USHTARAK #2 CR 1
Male Half-Orc Fighter 2
CN Medium Humanoid (Orc)
Init +4; Senses Darkvision (60 feet); Perception +1
--------------------
DEFENSE
--------------------
AC 19, touch 10, flat-footed 19. . (+8 armor, +1 shield)
hp 18 (2d10+2)
Fort +4, Ref +0, Will +1
Defensive Abilities Bravery +1
--------------------
OFFENSE
--------------------
Spd 20 ft.
Melee Dagger +5 (1d4+3/19-20/x2) and
. . Gauntlet (from Armor) +5 (1d3+3/20/x2) and
. . Greataxe +4 (1d12+4/20/x3) and
. . Greatclub +5 (1d10+4/20/x2) and
. . Unarmed Strike +5 (1d3+3/20/x2)
Ranged Longbow +2 (1d8/20/x3) and
. . Sling +2 (1d4+3/20/x2)
--------------------
STATISTICS
--------------------
Str 17, Dex 10, Con 13, Int 14, Wis 12, Cha 8
Base Atk +2; CMB +5; CMD 15
Feats Animal Affinity, Improved Initiative, Mounted Combat
Skills Acrobatics -7, Climb +0, Escape Artist -7, Fly -7, Handle Animal +6, Intimidate +6, Knowledge (Dungeoneering) +6, Knowledge (Engineering) +6, Stealth -7, Survival +5, Swim -4
Languages Abyssal, Common, Draconic, Orc
SQ Orc Ferocity (1/day)
Combat Gear Arrows (40), Buckler, Dagger (4), Greataxe, Greatclub, Longbow, Masterwork Half Plate, Sling;
--------------------
TRACKED RESOURCES
--------------------
Arrows - 0/40
Dagger - 0/4
Orc Ferocity (1/day) - 0/1
--------------------
SPECIAL ABILITIES
--------------------
Bravery +1 (Ex) +1 Will save vs. Fear
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Mounted Combat Once per round you can attempt to negate a hit to your mount in combat.
Orc Ferocity (1/day) 1/day, when brought below 0 HP but not killed, you can fight on for 1 more round as if disabled. The next round, unless brought to at least 0 HP, you immediately fall unconscious and begin dying.

HORSE, LIGHT (COMBAT TRAINED) CR 1
Male Horse
NN Large Animal
Init +2; Senses Low-Light Vision, Scent; Perception +6
--------------------
DEFENSE
--------------------
AC 11, touch 11, flat-footed 9. . (+2 Dex, -1 size)
hp 15 (2d8+6)
Fort +6, Ref +5, Will +1
--------------------
OFFENSE
--------------------
Spd 50 ft.
Melee Hooves x2 (Horse) +3 x2 (1d4+3/20/x2) and
. . Unarmed Strike +3 (1d4+3/20/x2)
Space 10 ft.; Reach 5 ft.
--------------------
STATISTICS
--------------------
Str 16, Dex 14, Con 17, Int 2, Wis 13, Cha 7
Base Atk +1; CMB +5; CMD 17 (21 vs. Trip)
Feats Endurance, Run
Tricks Attack [Trick], Combat Riding [Trick], Come [Trick], Defend [Trick], Down [Trick], Guard [Trick], Heel [Trick]
Skills Fly +0, Perception +6, Stealth -2
Languages
SQ Combat Riding [Trick]

--------------------
TRACKED RESOURCES
--------------------
. . -none-
--------------------
SPECIAL ABILITIES
--------------------
Combat Riding [Trick] The animal has been trained to bear a rider into combat.
Endurance +4 to a variety of skill checks. Sleep in L/M armor with no fatigue.
Low-Light Vision See twice as far as a human in low light, distinguishing color and detail.
Run You run faster than normal.
Scent (Ex) Detect opponents within 15+ feet by sense of smell.

Level 3

Spoiler:

USHTARAK #3 CR 2
Male Half-Orc Fighter 3
CN Medium Humanoid (Orc)
Init +4; Senses Darkvision (60 feet); Perception +1
--------------------
DEFENSE
--------------------
AC 20, touch 10, flat-footed 20. . (+8 armor, +2 shield)
hp 25 (3d10+3)
Fort +4, Ref +1, Will +4
Defensive Abilities Bravery +1
--------------------
OFFENSE
--------------------
Spd 20 ft.
Melee Dagger +6 (1d4+3/19-20/x2) and
. . Gauntlet (from Armor) +6 (1d3+3/20/x2) and
. . Greatclub +6 (1d10+4/20/x2) and
. . Masterwork Greataxe +6 (1d12+4/20/x3) and
. . Unarmed Strike +6 (1d3+3/20/x2)
Ranged Longbow +3 (1d8/20/x3) and
. . Sling +3 (1d4+3/20/x2)
--------------------
STATISTICS
--------------------
Str 17, Dex 10, Con 13, Int 14, Wis 12, Cha 8
Base Atk +3; CMB +6; CMD 16
Feats Animal Affinity, Improved Initiative, Iron Will, Mounted Combat
Skills Acrobatics -5, Escape Artist -5, Fly -5, Handle Animal +7, Intimidate +7, Knowledge (Dungeoneering) +6, Knowledge (Engineering) +6, Ride +3, Stealth -5, Survival +5, Swim +2
Languages Abyssal, Common, Draconic, Orc
SQ Armor Training 1 (Ex), Orc Ferocity (1/day)
Combat Gear +1 Buckler, Arrows (40), Dagger (4), Greatclub, Longbow, Masterwork Greataxe, Masterwork Half Plate, Sling;
--------------------
TRACKED RESOURCES
--------------------
Arrows - 0/40
Dagger - 0/4
Orc Ferocity (1/day) - 0/1
--------------------
SPECIAL ABILITIES
--------------------
Armor Training 1 (Ex) Worn armor -1 check penalty, +1 max DEX.
Bravery +1 (Ex) +1 Will save vs. Fear
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Mounted Combat Once per round you can attempt to negate a hit to your mount in combat.
Orc Ferocity (1/day) 1/day, when brought below 0 HP but not killed, you can fight on for 1 more round as if disabled. The next round, unless brought to at least 0 HP, you immediately fall unconscious and begin dying.

HORSE, HEAVY (COMBAT TRAINED) CR 1
Male Horse, Heavy
NN Large Animal
Init +2; Senses Low-Light Vision, Scent; Perception +6
--------------------
DEFENSE
--------------------
AC 11, touch 11, flat-footed 9. . (+2 Dex, -1 size)
hp 15 (2d8+6)
Fort +6, Ref +5, Will +1
--------------------
OFFENSE
--------------------
Spd 50 ft.
Melee Bite (Horse, Heavy) +3 (1d4+3/20/x2) and
. . Hooves x2 (Horse, Heavy) -2 x2 (1d6+1/20/x2) and
. . Unarmed Strike +3 (1d4+3/20/x2)
Space 10 ft.; Reach 5 ft.
--------------------
STATISTICS
--------------------
Str 16, Dex 14, Con 17, Int 2, Wis 13, Cha 7
Base Atk +1; CMB +5; CMD 17 (21 vs. Trip)
Feats Endurance, Run
Tricks Attack [Trick], Combat Riding [Trick], Come [Trick], Defend [Trick], Down [Trick], Guard [Trick], Heel [Trick]
Skills Fly +0, Perception +6, Stealth -2
Languages
SQ Combat Riding [Trick]

--------------------
TRACKED RESOURCES
--------------------
. . -none-
--------------------
SPECIAL ABILITIES
--------------------
Combat Riding [Trick] The animal has been trained to bear a rider into combat.
Endurance +4 to a variety of skill checks. Sleep in L/M armor with no fatigue.
Low-Light Vision See twice as far as a human in low light, distinguishing color and detail.
Run You run faster than normal.
Scent (Ex) Detect opponents within 15+ feet by sense of smell.

Level 4

Spoiler:

USHTARAK #4 CR 3
Male Half-Orc Fighter 4
CN Medium Humanoid (Orc)
Init +4; Senses Darkvision (60 feet); Perception +1
--------------------
DEFENSE
--------------------
AC 20, touch 10, flat-footed 20. . (+8 armor, +2 shield)
hp 32 (4d10+4)
Fort +5, Ref +1, Will +4
Defensive Abilities Bravery +1
--------------------
OFFENSE
--------------------
Spd 20 ft.
Melee +1 Greataxe +6 (1d12+13/20/x3) and
. . Dagger +6 (1d4+8/19-20/x2) and
. . Gauntlet (from Armor) +6 (1d3+8/20/x2) and
. . Greatclub +6 (1d10+12/20/x2) and
. . Unarmed Strike +6 (1d3+8/20/x2)
Ranged Masterwork Longbow, Composite (Str +4) +5 (1d8+4/20/x3) and
. . Sling +4 (1d4+4/20/x2)
--------------------
STATISTICS
--------------------
Str 18, Dex 10, Con 13, Int 14, Wis 12, Cha 8
Base Atk +4; CMB +8; CMD 18
Feats Animal Affinity, Improved Initiative, Iron Will, Mounted Combat, Power Attack -2/+4
Skills Acrobatics -5, Climb +5, Escape Artist -5, Fly -5, Handle Animal +8, Intimidate +8, Knowledge (Dungeoneering) +7, Knowledge (Engineering) +6, Ride +4, Stealth -5, Survival +5, Swim +3
Languages Abyssal, Common, Draconic, Orc
SQ Armor Training 1 (Ex), Orc Ferocity (1/day)
Combat Gear +1 Buckler, +1 Greataxe, Arrows (40), Dagger (4), Greatclub, Masterwork Half Plate, Masterwork Longbow, Composite (Str +4), Sling;
--------------------
TRACKED RESOURCES
--------------------
Arrows - 0/40
Dagger - 0/4
Orc Ferocity (1/day) - 0/1
--------------------
SPECIAL ABILITIES
--------------------
Armor Training 1 (Ex) Worn armor -1 check penalty, +1 max DEX.
Bravery +1 (Ex) +1 Will save vs. Fear
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Mounted Combat Once per round you can attempt to negate a hit to your mount in combat.
Orc Ferocity (1/day) 1/day, when brought below 0 HP but not killed, you can fight on for 1 more round as if disabled. The next round, unless brought to at least 0 HP, you immediately fall unconscious and begin dying.
Power Attack -2/+4 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.

HORSE, HEAVY (COMBAT TRAINED) CR 1
Male Horse, Heavy
NN Large Animal
Init +2; Senses Low-Light Vision, Scent; Perception +6
--------------------
DEFENSE
--------------------
AC 15, touch 11, flat-footed 13. . (+4 armor, +2 Dex, -1 size)
hp 15 (2d8+6)
Fort +6, Ref +5, Will +1
--------------------
OFFENSE
--------------------
Spd 50 ft.
Melee Bite (Horse, Heavy) +2 (1d4+3/20/x2) and
. . Hooves x2 (Horse, Heavy) -3 x2 (1d6+1/20/x2) and
. . Unarmed Strike +2 (1d4+3/20/x2)
Space 10 ft.; Reach 5 ft.
--------------------
STATISTICS
--------------------
Str 16, Dex 14, Con 17, Int 2, Wis 13, Cha 7
Base Atk +1; CMB +5; CMD 17 (21 vs. Trip)
Feats Endurance, Run
Tricks Attack [Trick], Combat Riding [Trick], Come [Trick], Defend [Trick], Down [Trick], Guard [Trick], Heel [Trick]
Skills Acrobatics +1, Climb +2, Escape Artist +1, Fly -1, Perception +6, Ride +1, Stealth -3, Swim +2
Languages
SQ Combat Riding [Trick]
Combat Gear Masterwork Chain Shirt;
--------------------
TRACKED RESOURCES
--------------------
. . -none-
--------------------
SPECIAL ABILITIES
--------------------
Combat Riding [Trick] The animal has been trained to bear a rider into combat.
Endurance +4 to a variety of skill checks. Sleep in L/M armor with no fatigue.
Low-Light Vision See twice as far as a human in low light, distinguishing color and detail.
Run You run faster than normal.
Scent (Ex) Detect opponents within 15+ feet by sense of smell.

Level 5

Spoiler:

USHTARAK #5 CR 4
Male Half-Orc Fighter 5
CN Medium Humanoid (Orc)
Init +4; Senses Darkvision (60 feet); Perception +1
--------------------
DEFENSE
--------------------
AC 20, touch 10, flat-footed 20. . (+8 armor, +2 shield)
hp 44 (5d10+10)
Fort +7, Ref +3, Will +6
Defensive Abilities Bravery +1
--------------------
OFFENSE
--------------------
Spd 20 ft.
Melee +1 Greataxe +8 (1d12+14/20/x3) and
. . Dagger +7 (1d4+8/19-20/x2) and
. . Gauntlet (from Armor) +7 (1d3+8/20/x2) and
. . Greatclub +7 (1d10+12/20/x2) and
. . Unarmed Strike +7 (1d3+8/20/x2)
Ranged Masterwork Longbow, Composite (Str +4) +6 (1d8+4/20/x3) and
. . Sling +5 (1d4+4/20/x2)
Special Attacks Weapon Training: Axes
--------------------
STATISTICS
--------------------
Str 18, Dex 10, Con 13, Int 14, Wis 12, Cha 8
Base Atk +5; CMB +9; CMD 19
Feats Animal Affinity, Improved Initiative, Iron Will, Mounted Combat, Power Attack -2/+4, Toughness +5
Skills Acrobatics -5, Climb +5, Escape Artist -5, Fly -5, Handle Animal +9, Intimidate +9, Knowledge (Dungeoneering) +7, Knowledge (Engineering) +7, Ride +5, Stealth -5, Survival +6, Swim +3
Languages Abyssal, Common, Draconic, Orc
SQ Armor Training 1 (Ex), Orc Ferocity (1/day)
Combat Gear +1 Buckler, +1 Greataxe, Arrows (40), Dagger (4), Greatclub, Masterwork Half Plate, Masterwork Longbow, Composite (Str +4), Sling; Other Gear Cloak of Resistance, +2
--------------------
TRACKED RESOURCES
--------------------
Arrows - 0/40
Dagger - 0/4
Orc Ferocity (1/day) - 0/1
--------------------
SPECIAL ABILITIES
--------------------
Armor Training 1 (Ex) Worn armor -1 check penalty, +1 max DEX.
Bravery +1 (Ex) +1 Will save vs. Fear
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Mounted Combat Once per round you can attempt to negate a hit to your mount in combat.
Orc Ferocity (1/day) 1/day, when brought below 0 HP but not killed, you can fight on for 1 more round as if disabled. The next round, unless brought to at least 0 HP, you immediately fall unconscious and begin dying.
Power Attack -2/+4 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Weapon Training: Axes +1 (Ex) +1 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Axes

HORSE, HEAVY (COMBAT TRAINED) CR 1
Male Horse, Heavy
NN Large Animal
Init +2; Senses Low-Light Vision, Scent; Perception +6
--------------------
DEFENSE
--------------------
AC 15, touch 11, flat-footed 13. . (+4 armor, +2 Dex, -1 size)
hp 15 (2d8+6)
Fort +6, Ref +5, Will +1
--------------------
OFFENSE
--------------------
Spd 50 ft.
Melee Bite (Horse, Heavy) +2 (1d4+3/20/x2) and
. . Hooves x2 (Horse, Heavy) -3 x2 (1d6+1/20/x2) and
. . Unarmed Strike +2 (1d4+3/20/x2)
Space 10 ft.; Reach 5 ft.
--------------------
STATISTICS
--------------------
Str 16, Dex 14, Con 17, Int 2, Wis 13, Cha 7
Base Atk +1; CMB +5; CMD 17 (21 vs. Trip)
Feats Endurance, Run
Tricks Attack [Trick], Combat Riding [Trick], Come [Trick], Defend [Trick], Down [Trick], Guard [Trick], Heel [Trick]
Skills Acrobatics +1, Climb +2, Escape Artist +1, Fly -1, Perception +6, Ride +1, Stealth -3, Swim +2
Languages
SQ Combat Riding [Trick]
Combat Gear Masterwork Chain Shirt;
--------------------
TRACKED RESOURCES
--------------------
. . -none-
--------------------
SPECIAL ABILITIES
--------------------
Combat Riding [Trick] The animal has been trained to bear a rider into combat.
Endurance +4 to a variety of skill checks. Sleep in L/M armor with no fatigue.
Low-Light Vision See twice as far as a human in low light, distinguishing color and detail.
Run You run faster than normal.
Scent (Ex) Detect opponents within 15+ feet by sense of smell.

Level 6

Spoiler:

USHTARAK #6 CR 5
Male Half-Orc Fighter 6
CN Medium Humanoid (Orc)
Init +4; Senses Darkvision (60 feet); Perception +1
--------------------
DEFENSE
--------------------
AC 24, touch 12, flat-footed 22. . (+10 armor, +2 shield, +2 dodge)
hp 52 (6d10+12)
Fort +8, Ref +4, Will +7
Defensive Abilities Bravery +2
--------------------
OFFENSE
--------------------
Spd 20 ft.
Melee +1 Greataxe +8/+3 (1d12+15/20/x3) and
. . Dagger +7/+2 (1d4+9/19-20/x2) and
. . Gauntlet (from Armor) +7/+2 (1d3+9/20/x2) and
. . Greatclub +7/+2 (1d10+13/20/x2) and
. . Unarmed Strike +7/+2 (1d3+9/20/x2)
Ranged Masterwork Longbow, Composite (Str +4) +7/+2 (1d8+4/20/x3) and
. . Sling +6/+1 (1d4+5/20/x2)
Special Attacks Weapon Training: Axes
--------------------
STATISTICS
--------------------
Str 18/20, Dex 10, Con 13, Int 14, Wis 12, Cha 8
Base Atk +6; CMB +11; CMD 23
Feats Animal Affinity, Combat Expertise +/-2, Improved Initiative, Iron Will, Mounted Combat, Power Attack -2/+4, Toughness +6
Skills Acrobatics -4, Climb +7, Escape Artist -4, Fly -4, Handle Animal +9, Intimidate +10, Knowledge (Dungeoneering) +8, Knowledge (Engineering) +8, Ride +7, Stealth -4, Survival +6, Swim +6
Languages Abyssal, Common, Draconic, Orc
SQ Armor Training 1 (Ex), Orc Ferocity (1/day)
Combat Gear +1 Buckler, +1 Full Plate, +1 Greataxe, Arrows (40), Dagger (4), Greatclub, Masterwork Longbow, Composite (Str +4), Sling; Other Gear Belt of Giant Strength, +2, Cloak of Resistance, +2
--------------------
TRACKED RESOURCES
--------------------
Arrows - 0/40
Dagger - 0/4
Orc Ferocity (1/day) - 0/1
--------------------
SPECIAL ABILITIES
--------------------
Armor Training 1 (Ex) Worn armor -1 check penalty, +1 max DEX.
Bravery +2 (Ex) +2 Will save vs. Fear
Combat Expertise +/-2 Bonus to AC in exchange for an equal penalty to attack.
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Mounted Combat Once per round you can attempt to negate a hit to your mount in combat.
Orc Ferocity (1/day) 1/day, when brought below 0 HP but not killed, you can fight on for 1 more round as if disabled. The next round, unless brought to at least 0 HP, you immediately fall unconscious and begin dying.
Power Attack -2/+4 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Weapon Training: Axes +1 (Ex) +1 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Axes

HORSE, HEAVY (COMBAT TRAINED) CR 1
Male Horse, Heavy
NN Large Animal
Init +2; Senses Low-Light Vision, Scent; Perception +6
--------------------
DEFENSE
--------------------
AC 15, touch 11, flat-footed 13. . (+4 armor, +2 Dex, -1 size)
hp 15 (2d8+6)
Fort +6, Ref +5, Will +1
--------------------
OFFENSE
--------------------
Spd 50 ft.
Melee Bite (Horse, Heavy) +2 (1d4+3/20/x2) and
. . Hooves x2 (Horse, Heavy) -3 x2 (1d6+1/20/x2) and
. . Unarmed Strike +2 (1d4+3/20/x2)
Space 10 ft.; Reach 5 ft.
--------------------
STATISTICS
--------------------
Str 16, Dex 14, Con 17, Int 2, Wis 13, Cha 7
Base Atk +1; CMB +5; CMD 17 (21 vs. Trip)
Feats Endurance, Run
Tricks Attack [Trick], Combat Riding [Trick], Come [Trick], Defend [Trick], Down [Trick], Guard [Trick], Heel [Trick]
Skills Acrobatics +1, Climb +2, Escape Artist +1, Fly -1, Perception +6, Ride +1, Stealth -3, Swim +2
Languages
SQ Combat Riding [Trick]
Combat Gear Masterwork Chain Shirt;
--------------------
TRACKED RESOURCES
--------------------
. . -none-
--------------------
SPECIAL ABILITIES
--------------------
Combat Riding [Trick] The animal has been trained to bear a rider into combat.
Endurance +4 to a variety of skill checks. Sleep in L/M armor with no fatigue.
Low-Light Vision See twice as far as a human in low light, distinguishing color and detail.
Run You run faster than normal.
Scent (Ex) Detect opponents within 15+ feet by sense of smell.


Now you’ve got me building fighters and I am having fun doing it. See what you’ve done?

Here’s a gnome that can lie or intimidate as needed and is a linguist so he can do it in whatever language he wants. At the same time, he’s an alchemist when he’s not adventuring. When he’s in battle, he prefers his hooked hammer. I haven't spent any of his funds on alchemical items but he can create them at 1/3 the cost so it's pretty cheap for him to have some extra fun items on his person.

Level 1

Spoiler:

AARDMANNETJE CR 1/2
Male Gnome Fighter (Weapon Master) 1
CG Small Humanoid (Gnome)
Init +2; Senses Low-Light Vision; Perception +7
--------------------
DEFENSE
--------------------
AC 18, touch 13, flat-footed 16. . (+4 armor, +1 shield, +2 Dex, +1 size)
hp 12 (1d10+2)
Fort +4, Ref +2, Will +0
--------------------
OFFENSE
--------------------
Spd 20 ft.
Melee Dagger +3 (1d3+1/19-20/x2) and
. . Hammer, Gnome Hkd. +3 (1d6+1/20/x3/x4)
Ranged Sling +4 (1d3+1/20/x2)
Spell-Like Abilities Speak with Animals (1/day)
--------------------
STATISTICS
--------------------
Str 12, Dex 15, Con 14, Int 13, Wis 10, Cha 10
Base Atk +1; CMB +1; CMD 13
Feats Arcane Talent: Prestidigitation (3/day), Weapon Focus: Hammer, Gnome Hooked
Traits Etymologist, Valashmai Veteran: Perception
Skills Acrobatics -1, Bluff +1, Climb -2, Craft (Alchemy) +7, Diplomacy +1, Escape Artist -1, Fly +1, Intimidate +4, Linguistics +6, Perception +7, Ride -1, Stealth +3, Swim -2
Languages Abyssal, Celestial, Common, Draconic, Dwarven, Gnome, Sylvan
SQ Gnome Magic, Illusion Resistance
Combat Gear Buckler, Chain Shirt, Dagger, Hammer, Gnome Hkd., Sling;
--------------------
TRACKED RESOURCES
--------------------
Arcane Talent: Prestidigitation (3/day) - 0/3
Dagger - 0/1
Speak with Animals (1/day) (Sp) - 0/1
--------------------
SPECIAL ABILITIES
--------------------
Arcane Talent: Prestidigitation (3/day) You gain a chosen spell as a spell-like ability, 3/day.
Gnome Magic +1 to the save DC of all illusions spells you cast.
Illusion Resistance +2 racial bonus to saves against illusions.
Low-Light Vision See twice as far as a human in low light, distinguishing color and detail.
Speak with Animals (1/day) (Sp) Speak with Animals 1/day.
Valashmai Veteran: Perception +1 trait bonus on Survival in the jungle.

Level 2

Spoiler:

AARDMANNETJE #2 CR 1
Male Gnome Fighter (Weapon Master) 2
CG Small Humanoid (Gnome)
Init +2; Senses Low-Light Vision; Perception +8
--------------------
DEFENSE
--------------------
AC 20, touch 13, flat-footed 18. . (+6 armor, +1 shield, +2 Dex, +1 size)
hp 20 (2d10+4)
Fort +5, Ref +2, Will +0
--------------------
OFFENSE
--------------------
Spd 15 ft.
Melee Dagger +4 (1d3+1/19-20/x2) and
. . Masterwork Hammer, Gnome Hooked +3 (1d6+1/1d4/20/x3/x4)
Ranged Longbow +5 (1d6/20/x3) and
. . Sling +5 (1d3+1/20/x2)
Spell-Like Abilities Speak with Animals (1/day)
--------------------
STATISTICS
--------------------
Str 12, Dex 15, Con 14, Int 13, Wis 10, Cha 10
Base Atk +2; CMB +2; CMD 14 (15 vs. Disarm15 vs. Sunder)
Feats Arcane Talent: Prestidigitation (3/day), Two-weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus: Hammer, Gnome Hooked
Traits Etymologist, Valashmai Veteran: Perception
Skills Acrobatics -3, Bluff +2, Climb -4, Craft (Alchemy) +7, Diplomacy +1, Escape Artist -3, Fly -1, Intimidate +5, Linguistics +7, Perception +8, Ride -3, Stealth +1, Swim -4
Languages Abyssal, Celestial, Common, Draconic, Dwarven, Elven, Giant, Gnome, Sylvan
SQ Gnome Magic, Illusion Resistance, Weapon Guard +1: Hammer, Gnome Hooked (Ex)
Combat Gear Arrows (40), Breastplate, Buckler, Dagger, Longbow, Masterwork Hammer, Gnome Hooked, Sling;
--------------------
TRACKED RESOURCES
--------------------
Arcane Talent: Prestidigitation (3/day) - 0/3
Arrows - 0/40
Dagger - 0/1
Speak with Animals (1/day) (Sp) - 0/1
--------------------
SPECIAL ABILITIES
--------------------
Arcane Talent: Prestidigitation (3/day) You gain a chosen spell as a spell-like ability, 3/day.
Gnome Magic +1 to the save DC of all illusions spells you cast.
Illusion Resistance +2 racial bonus to saves against illusions.
Low-Light Vision See twice as far as a human in low light, distinguishing color and detail.
Speak with Animals (1/day) (Sp) Speak with Animals 1/day.
Valashmai Veteran: Perception +1 trait bonus on Survival in the jungle.
Weapon Guard +1: Hammer, Gnome Hooked (Ex) +1 CMD vs. Disarm and Sunder or other effects targeting your chosen weapon.

Level 3

Spoiler:

AARDMANNETJE #3 CR 2
Male Gnome Fighter (Weapon Master) 3
CG Small Humanoid (Gnome)
Init +2; Senses Low-Light Vision; Perception +9
--------------------
DEFENSE
--------------------
AC 21, touch 13, flat-footed 19. . (+7 armor, +1 shield, +2 Dex, +1 size)
hp 28 (3d10+6)
Fort +5, Ref +3, Will +3
--------------------
OFFENSE
--------------------
Spd 15 ft.
Melee Dagger +5 (1d3+1/19-20/x2) and
. . Masterwork Hammer, Gnome Hooked +5 (1d6+2/1d4+1/20/x3/x4)
Ranged Longbow +6 (1d6/20/x3) and
. . Sling +6 (1d3+1/20/x2)
Special Attacks Weapon Training +1: Hammer, Gnome Hooked
Spell-Like Abilities Speak with Animals (1/day)
--------------------
STATISTICS
--------------------
Str 12, Dex 15, Con 14, Int 13, Wis 10, Cha 10
Base Atk +3; CMB +3; CMD 15 (16 vs. Disarm16 vs. Sunder)
Feats Arcane Talent: Prestidigitation (3/day), Iron Will, Two-weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus: Hammer, Gnome Hooked
Traits Etymologist, Valashmai Veteran: Perception
Skills Acrobatics -2, Bluff +3, Climb -3, Craft (Alchemy) +8, Diplomacy +1, Escape Artist -2, Fly +0, Intimidate +6, Linguistics +7, Perception +9, Ride -2, Swim -3
Languages Abyssal, Celestial, Common, Draconic, Dwarven, Elven, Giant, Gnome, Sylvan
SQ Gnome Magic, Illusion Resistance, Weapon Guard +1: Hammer, Gnome Hooked (Ex)
Combat Gear +1 Breastplate, Arrows (40), Buckler, Dagger, Longbow, Masterwork Hammer, Gnome Hooked, Sling;
--------------------
TRACKED RESOURCES
--------------------
Arcane Talent: Prestidigitation (3/day) - 0/3
Arrows - 0/40
Dagger - 0/1
Speak with Animals (1/day) (Sp) - 0/1
--------------------
SPECIAL ABILITIES
--------------------
Arcane Talent: Prestidigitation (3/day) You gain a chosen spell as a spell-like ability, 3/day.
Gnome Magic +1 to the save DC of all illusions spells you cast.
Illusion Resistance +2 racial bonus to saves against illusions.
Low-Light Vision See twice as far as a human in low light, distinguishing color and detail.
Speak with Animals (1/day) (Sp) Speak with Animals 1/day.
Valashmai Veteran: Perception +1 trait bonus on Survival in the jungle.
Weapon Guard +1: Hammer, Gnome Hooked (Ex) +1 CMD vs. Disarm and Sunder or other effects targeting your chosen weapon.
Weapon Training +1: Hammer, Gnome Hooked (Ex) +1 to hit and damage with your chosen weapon.

Level 4

Spoiler:

AARDMANNETJE #4 CR 3
Male Gnome Fighter (Weapon Master) 4
CG Small Humanoid (Gnome)
Init +3; Senses Low-Light Vision; Perception +10
--------------------
DEFENSE
--------------------
AC 23, touch 14, flat-footed 20. . (+7 armor, +2 shield, +3 Dex, +1 size)
hp 36 (4d10+8)
Fort +7, Ref +5, Will +4
--------------------
OFFENSE
--------------------
Spd 15 ft.
Melee Dagger +6 (1d3+1/19-20/x2) and
. . Masterwork Hammer, Gnome Hooked +6 (1d6+4/1d4+3/20/x3/x4)
Ranged Longbow +8 (1d6/20/x3) and
. . Sling +8 (1d3+1/20/x2)
Special Attacks Weapon Training +1: Hammer, Gnome Hooked
Spell-Like Abilities Speak with Animals (1/day)
--------------------
STATISTICS
--------------------
Str 12, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 13, Wis 10, Cha 10
Base Atk +4; CMB +4; CMD 17 (18 vs. Disarm18 vs. Sunder)
Feats Arcane Talent: Prestidigitation (3/day), Iron Will, Two-weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus: Hammer, Gnome Hooked, Weapon Specialization: Hammer, Gnome Hooked
Traits Etymologist, Valashmai Veteran: Perception
Skills Acrobatics +0, Bluff +3, Climb -2, Craft (Alchemy) +9, Diplomacy +1, Escape Artist +0, Fly +2, Intimidate +7, Linguistics +8, Perception +10, Ride +0, Stealth +4, Swim -2
Languages Abyssal, Celestial, Common, Draconic, Dwarven, Elven, Giant, Gnome, Goblin, Orc, Sylvan
SQ Gnome Magic, Illusion Resistance, Weapon Guard +1: Hammer, Gnome Hooked (Ex)
Combat Gear +1 Breastplate, +1 Buckler, Arrows (40), Dagger, Longbow, Masterwork Hammer, Gnome Hooked, Sling; Other Gear Cloak of Resistance, +1
--------------------
TRACKED RESOURCES
--------------------
Arcane Talent: Prestidigitation (3/day) - 0/3
Arrows - 0/40
Dagger - 0/1
Speak with Animals (1/day) (Sp) - 0/1
--------------------
SPECIAL ABILITIES
--------------------
Arcane Talent: Prestidigitation (3/day) You gain a chosen spell as a spell-like ability, 3/day.
Gnome Magic +1 to the save DC of all illusions spells you cast.
Illusion Resistance +2 racial bonus to saves against illusions.
Low-Light Vision See twice as far as a human in low light, distinguishing color and detail.
Speak with Animals (1/day) (Sp) Speak with Animals 1/day.
Valashmai Veteran: Perception +1 trait bonus on Survival in the jungle.
Weapon Guard +1: Hammer, Gnome Hooked (Ex) +1 CMD vs. Disarm and Sunder or other effects targeting your chosen weapon.
Weapon Training +1: Hammer, Gnome Hooked (Ex) +1 to hit and damage with your chosen weapon.

Level 5

Spoiler:

AARDMANNETJE #5 CR 4
Male Gnome Fighter (Weapon Master) 5
CG Small Humanoid (Gnome)
Init +3; Senses Low-Light Vision; Perception +11
--------------------
DEFENSE
--------------------
AC 24, touch 14, flat-footed 21. . (+7 armor, +2 shield, +3 Dex, +1 size, +1 natural)
hp 44 (5d10+10)
Fort +7, Ref +5, Will +4
--------------------
OFFENSE
--------------------
Spd 15 ft.
Melee +1 Hammer, Gnome Hooked +7 (1d6+5/1d4+4/20/x3/x4) and
. . Dagger +7 (1d3+1/19-20/x2)
Ranged Longbow +9 (1d6/20/x3) and
. . Sling +9 (1d3+1/20/x2)
Special Attacks Reliable Strike: Hammer, Gnome Hooked (1/day), Weapon Training +1: Hammer, Gnome Hooked
Spell-Like Abilities Speak with Animals (1/day)
--------------------
STATISTICS
--------------------
Str 12, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 13, Wis 10, Cha 10
Base Atk +5; CMB +5; CMD 18 (19 vs. Disarm19 vs. Sunder)
Feats Arcane Talent: Prestidigitation (3/day), Iron Will, Skill Focus: Bluff, Two-weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus: Hammer, Gnome Hooked, Weapon Specialization: Hammer, Gnome Hooked
Traits Etymologist, Valashmai Veteran: Perception
Skills Acrobatics +0, Bluff +7, Climb -2, Craft (Alchemy) +10, Diplomacy +1, Escape Artist +0, Fly +2, Intimidate +7, Linguistics +9, Perception +11, Ride +0, Stealth +4, Swim -2
Languages Abyssal, Aquan, Celestial, Common, Draconic, Dwarven, Elven, Giant, Gnome, Goblin, Infernal, Orc, Sylvan
SQ Gnome Magic, Illusion Resistance, Weapon Guard +1: Hammer, Gnome Hooked (Ex)
Combat Gear +1 Breastplate, +1 Buckler, +1 Hammer, Gnome Hooked, Arrows (40), Dagger, Longbow, Sling; Other Gear Amulet of Natural Armor +1, Cloak of Resistance, +1
--------------------
TRACKED RESOURCES
--------------------
Arcane Talent: Prestidigitation (3/day) - 0/3
Arrows - 0/40
Dagger - 0/1
Reliable Strike: Hammer, Gnome Hooked (1/day) (Ex) - 0/1
Speak with Animals (1/day) (Sp) - 0/1
--------------------
SPECIAL ABILITIES
--------------------
Arcane Talent: Prestidigitation (3/day) You gain a chosen spell as a spell-like ability, 3/day.
Gnome Magic +1 to the save DC of all illusions spells you cast.
Illusion Resistance +2 racial bonus to saves against illusions.
Low-Light Vision See twice as far as a human in low light, distinguishing color and detail.
Reliable Strike: Hammer, Gnome Hooked (1/day) (Ex) Reroll attack roll, critical confirmation, miss chance or damage roll for your chosen weapon
Speak with Animals (1/day) (Sp) Speak with Animals 1/day.
Valashmai Veteran: Perception +1 trait bonus on Survival in the jungle.
Weapon Guard +1: Hammer, Gnome Hooked (Ex) +1 CMD vs. Disarm and Sunder or other effects targeting your chosen weapon.
Weapon Training +1: Hammer, Gnome Hooked (Ex) +1 to hit and damage with your chosen weapon.

Level 6

Spoiler:

AARDMANNETJE #6 CR 5
Male Gnome Fighter (Weapon Master) 6
CG Small Humanoid (Gnome)
Init +3; Senses Low-Light Vision; Perception +12
--------------------
DEFENSE
--------------------
AC 24, touch 14, flat-footed 21. . (+7 armor, +2 shield, +3 Dex, +1 size, +1 natural)
hp 52 (6d10+12)
Fort +8, Ref +6, Will +5
--------------------
OFFENSE
--------------------
Spd 15 ft.
Melee +1 Hammer, Gnome Hooked +9/+4 (1d6+6/1d4+5/20/x3/x4) and
. . Dagger +9/+4 (1d3+2/19-20/x2)
Ranged Longbow +10/+5 (1d6/20/x3) and
. . Sling +10/+5 (1d3+2/20/x2)
Special Attacks Reliable Strike: Hammer, Gnome Hooked (1/day), Weapon Training +1: Hammer, Gnome Hooked
Spell-Like Abilities Speak with Animals (1/day)
--------------------
STATISTICS
--------------------
Str 12/14, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 13, Wis 10, Cha 10
Base Atk +6; CMB +7; CMD 20 (22 vs. Disarm22 vs. Sunder)
Feats Arcane Talent: Prestidigitation (3/day), Hammer the Gap, Iron Will, Skill Focus: Bluff, Two-weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus: Hammer, Gnome Hooked, Weapon Specialization: Hammer, Gnome Hooked
Traits Etymologist, Valashmai Veteran: Perception
Skills Acrobatics +0, Bluff +8, Climb -1, Craft (Alchemy) +10, Diplomacy +1, Escape Artist +0, Fly +2, Intimidate +8, Linguistics +10, Perception +12, Ride +0, Stealth +4, Swim -1
Languages Abyssal, Aquan, Auran, Celestial, Common, Draconic, Dwarven, Elven, Giant, Gnome, Goblin, Halfling, Infernal, Orc, Sylvan
SQ Gnome Magic, Illusion Resistance, Weapon Guard +2: Hammer, Gnome Hooked (Ex)
Combat Gear +1 Breastplate, +1 Buckler, +1 Hammer, Gnome Hooked, Arrows (40), Dagger, Longbow, Sling; Other Gear Amulet of Natural Armor +1, Belt of Giant Strength, +2, Cloak of Resistance, +1
--------------------
TRACKED RESOURCES
--------------------
Arcane Talent: Prestidigitation (3/day) - 0/3
Arrows - 0/40
Dagger - 0/1
Reliable Strike: Hammer, Gnome Hooked (1/day) (Ex) - 0/1
Speak with Animals (1/day) (Sp) - 0/1
--------------------
SPECIAL ABILITIES
--------------------
Arcane Talent: Prestidigitation (3/day) You gain a chosen spell as a spell-like ability, 3/day.
Gnome Magic +1 to the save DC of all illusions spells you cast.
Hammer the Gap With a full-attack action, each hit against the same opponent deals extra damage
Illusion Resistance +2 racial bonus to saves against illusions.
Low-Light Vision See twice as far as a human in low light, distinguishing color and detail.
Reliable Strike: Hammer, Gnome Hooked (1/day) (Ex) Reroll attack roll, critical confirmation, miss chance or damage roll for your chosen weapon
Speak with Animals (1/day) (Sp) Speak with Animals 1/day.
Valashmai Veteran: Perception +1 trait bonus on Survival in the jungle.
Weapon Guard +2: Hammer, Gnome Hooked (Ex) +2 CMD vs. Disarm and Sunder or other effects targeting your chosen weapon.
Weapon Training +1: Hammer, Gnome Hooked (Ex) +1 to hit and damage with your chosen weapon.


Yar!

Bob_Loblaw wrote:

Here is a core-only mounted fighter. I plan on using only his fighter bonus feats for his fighter abilities and his character feats to enhance the rest of him. I really wish there was a way to get a good mount. I will have to take Leadership especially because I am limiting him to core only.

Level 1
** spoiler omitted **...

Are you using the bestiary entry for the horse? If it truly is a heavy warhorse that you paid 300 gp for, why doesn't it have the Advanced Simple Template? (the main entry is for a light horse, not heavy).

Bestiary wrote:

The statistics above are for a typical riding horse, called by some a “light horse.” Some horses are larger and heartier, bred for labor such as pulling plows or carriages. These horses are called “heavy horses” and gain the following adjustments to the base statistics detailed above.

Heavy Horse: A heavy horse gains the advanced simple template. In addition, it also gains a bite attack that inflicts 1d4 damage, and its hoof damage increases to 1d6. As with a light horse, a heavy horse can be specifically trained for combat with the Handle Animal skill.

PRD Link

So, the horse stats could look more like this (this is a horse mount I wrote up for a bard character of mine from a while ago):

Heavy Horse:
Advanced Heavy Horse, Combat Trained
N Large Animal
Init +4
Senses Low-Light Vision, Scent; Perception +8 (+16 for smells)

DEFENSE

AC 18, touch 13, FF 14 (+2 Natural, +4 Dex, +3 Armor, -1 Size)
HP 19 (2d8+10)
Fort +8 Ref +7 Will +3

OFFENSE

Speed 50
Melee 2 Hooves +5 (1d6+5) and 1 Bite +5 (1d4+5)
Space 10 ft.; Reach 5 ft.

STATISTICS

Str 20, Dex 18, Con 21, Int 2, Wis 17, Cha 11
BAB +1; CMB +7; CMD 21 (25 vs trip)
Feats: Endurance, Run
Skills: Perception +8
SQ: Combat Trained
Treasure Alsvidbr (Masterwork Studded Leather Barding)

An animal trained to bear a rider into combat knows the tricks attack, come, defend, down, guard, and heel.

Carrying Capacity
Light up to 399 lbs
Medium 400 - 798 lbs
Heavy 799 - 1200 lbs
Push/Drag up to 6000 lbs

That definitely toughens it up a bit. Not as much as Leadership would, but every bit helps (especially for the first few levels). Also note the Docile trait of horses which states (paraphrased): unless trained for combat, a horses hooves are treated as secondary. Meaning that if the horse IS trained for combat, they become primary (which a 300gp war-horse IS).

~P


ciretose wrote:

It's like that Chris Rock sketch where he walks in and says "how much for one rib?"

A case "might" be made if you had craft wand and made it yourself, but going into the magic shop for custom items is christmas tree GM on steroids.

Don't forget the rules about purchasing item for your fighter either: a +3 falchion is cheese.

Andoran

Bob_Loblaw wrote:
Skip to level 6? I'll post quickly then. I want to show each level. You can judge them at whichever levels you like.

I'd rather not skip to level 6. I think we should go level by level.

Andoran

GâtFromKI wrote:
ciretose wrote:

It's like that Chris Rock sketch where he walks in and says "how much for one rib?"

A case "might" be made if you had craft wand and made it yourself, but going into the magic shop for custom items is christmas tree GM on steroids.

Don't forget the rules about purchasing item for your fighter either: a +3 falchion is cheese.

Not at all. I can commission a +3 falcion if I find someone capable of making it and I have the gold to pay full price.

You literally can not make partial wands. You can only make full charge wands.

Hence the one rib comment

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion Subscriber

Hey, where has Ashiel gone to?

Andoran

Gorbacz wrote:
Hey, where has Ashiel gone to?

She favorited a post upthread during the time she said she would be away running the multitude of games that would take to much of her attention, but she hasn't posted since yesterday afternoon.

I really am looking forward to the revision.

Andoran

Level 5 is alive.

Spoiler:

=================================================
Rufus the 5th Level Human Fighter
==================================================
Init +4; Perception +5
Hp: 38 (11 + 5.5 x 4+ 5 Toughness)
AC: 20, touch 12, flat 17 (+7 armor, +2 dex +1 natural)
Fort +6, Ref +4, Will +4 (+5 vs fear)
==================================================
Speed 30 ft. (30 ft.)
Melee: +1 Falcion +12 (2d4+16 (power attack) or Club +9 (1d6+12) (both if two-handed)
Ranged: +1 Composite Longbow +8 (1d8+5) (+6 1d8+9 with deadly aim) ==================================================
Str 19, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 7
BAB +1, CMB +5, CMD 17
Traits - +2 Initiative, +1 Will save
Feats - Toughness, Power Attack, Furious Focus, Weapon Focus (Falcion), Iron Will, Weapon Specialization (Falcion), Deadly Aim
Skills Ranks – Acrobatics 2 (-1 in armor), Appraise 1, Bluff -2, Climb (+8, +5 in armor), Craft (N/A), Diplomacy -2, Disable Device (N/A), Disguise -2, Escape Artist 2 (-1 in armor), Fly 2 (-1 in armor), Heal (0), Handle Animal -2, Intimidate (+2), Knowledge [dungeoneering] (+6), Knowledge [Engineering] (+6), Linguistics –, Perception (+5), Ride 6 (3 in armor), Sense Motive 2, Sleight of Hand - , Spellcraft, Stealth +7 (+4 in armor), Survival +8, Swim 8 (5 in armor), UMD -
Equipment - Weapons, +1 Breastplate, Cure Light wounds (5), endure elements (1), Potion of enlarge person (2) 44 gp worth of goods. Cold Iron Dagger, Silver Dagger, Ioun Torch,

I will take deadly aim and I am going to spend 2300 of the 4500 to make the composite longbow magical which means I can do fairly respectable ranged damage of 1d8+5, or 1d8+9 deadly aim. This makes me a pretty efficient switch hitter at the level where flying things need to be dealt with.

I’ll also pick up an amulet of natural armor just to bump that up a touch.

At this level I get Weapon Training, so I get another +1 to damage and attack with large blades, which includes my falcion. So I now have 18 as my minimum damage, with crits on 18-20 at a +12 to attack (5+4 Strength, +1 Weapon Focus, +1 Weapon, +1 weapon training).

I’ll pick up a few more cure potions with the rest. I need to think about my 6th level combat feat, but I am open to suggestions. I am leaning toward point blank to open up the ranged attack chains. This is one area the ranger has a definite advantage by being able to skip pre-requisites, and I don’t plan to use point blank much. If I’m within 30 feet, I would probably rather close in order to lock down the enemy to protect the rest of the party or to harass the caster.

As always, let me know if I messed anything up so I can correct it.


Gorbacz wrote:
Hey, where has Ashiel gone to?

After playing in and running some D&D games last night, I was exhausted and fell asleep on the couch in our den. There's also the urge to let the dust clear. I've smiled at the irony in the thread too. Ciretose warned that I would somehow say something was unfair and derail the thread; but there's over a d20's worth of posts that are just that, over whether or not it's acceptable to purchase magic items in accordance with the ruuuuuuulllesss.

That being said, I have realized that the only way it's going to be "fair" is if I just leave my PCs naked. Ciretose seems to believe it's entirely fine for his Fighter to ignore the community GP limits and "comission" a +3 weapon, but it's entirely unfair to actually follow the rules and see if a given community has wands with the charges I want; or his nitpicking about my having access to starting wealth for a character who is assumed to have come from 1st level. So, here are the updated versions of my characters.

Hopefully no one will feel this is dishonest or cheating, or would be unfair in an actual game (incidentally, yesterday I played in a game where I bought a cure light wounds wand with only 32 charges, along with a few near empty wands of lesser restoration and delay poison; which was good because we ended up needing them so our martial to continue to kill stuff). Also, I'll assume Samson the ox was donated to a church, despite the fact I purchased him and trained him myself. It's good to see that Fighters don't have people complain when they purchase things like Warhorses (hey, some folks are even like Yo dawg, you forgot the advanced template, but god forbid the Paladin use his resources).

3nd Level Human Ranger
==================================================
Init +8; Perception +7
Hp: 24 (3d10+3)
AC: 18-20, touch 12, flat 16-18 (+6 armor, +2 dex, +2 shield*)
Fort +4, Ref +5, Will +3
==================================================
Speed 20 ft. (30 ft.)
Melee: Mwk Warhammer +7 (1d8+6/x3) or Mwk Longspear +7 (1d8+9/x3, reach, brace) or Mwk Spiked Gauntlet +8 (1d4+4, cannot be disarmed)
Ranged: Mwk Composite Longbow +6 (1d8+4/x3) or Club +5 (1d6+4) or Sling +5 (1d3+3, rocks)
Combat Gear: None, because consumables are not fair.
==================================================
Str 18, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 7
BAB +3, CMB +7, CMD 19
Traits - +2 Initiative, +1 Will save
Feats - Combat Reflexes, Improved Initiative*, Rapid Shot*, Endurance*, Power Attack
Skills - Climb +6, Disable Device +5, Heal +5, Knowledge (Dungeoneering) +4, Knowledge (Nature) +4, Knowledge (Geography) +4, Linguistics +3 (+3 Lang), Perception +7, Ride +6, Stealth +10, Spellcraft +5, Survival +7 (+8 tracking), Swim +6; Check Penalty -3 or -4 (w/shield)
Equipment - weapons, masterwork breastplate, mwk heavy wooden shield, mwk tool (stealth), mwk thieves' tools, a mule (to carry treasure around that she is not allowed to spend), about 645 gp not spent in adventuring supplies
Languages - Common, Goblin, Dwarven, Sylvan

Commentary - This level she gained +1 BAB, +1 Will save, +8 skill points, +6.5 hit points, and gained Endurance as a bonus feat.

Eleowyn has discovered that there is a ban on legal trade of magic items. This is a little disappointing because while she doesn't know how to cast spells herself yet, it is part of her rudimentary knowledge as to how to use wands and the like - which are typically traded almost everwhere. She might have once even called it a "feature". Perhaps it's because he has walked from land of legal to land of "what the hell I want it to be" and had to turn over all her contraband legal goods. So she has simply acquired some masterwork gear and a mule to carry additional mundane loots with.

Her strategies are fairly simple. Due to the strange laws of this new land, and without any support at all, she picks her battles where she can. She has purchased a masterwork +4 strength composite longbow, which she typically opens up combat with from a distance that makes her hard to notice (longbow has a range of 110 ft, which gives her a +11 to her Stealth check from that distance). Instead of sitting in the same place and sniping, she uses a goblin tactic and shoots, then moves through cover or concealment (allowing her a new Stealth check) so enemies know they are under attack but have trouble seeing her (kind of like the ambush scene in The Patriot). After the initial rapid shot vs flat-footed AC (preferably to low-AC enemies like mages and flat-footed monks) she swaps to her mwk longspear and tries to keep her distance.

She also sleeps in her armor, because she is extra paranoid of adventuring now; which is okay since she has Endurance and doesn't suffer fatigue for preparing for nightly ambushes.

========================================================================

3rd Level Human Paladin
==================================================
Init +8; Perception +1
HP: 24 (3d10+3)
Fort +7, Ref +7, Will +4
AC: 18-20, touch 12, flat 16-18 (+6 armor, +2 dex, +2 shield*)
Immune - fear, disease
Aura - Good, Courage
==================================================
Speed 20 ft. (30 ft.)
Melee mwk ranseur +7 (2d4+4/x3, disarm), mwk heavy flail +7 (1d10+4/19-20, trip, disarm) or Mwk Spiked Gauntlet +7 (1d4+3, no disarm)
Ranged mwk composite longbow +6 (1d8+3/x3) or sling +5 (1d3+2, rocks)
Combat Gear - None due to ban on purchasing items legally.
==================================================
Str 16, Dex 14, Con 13, Int 7, Wis 7, Cha 16
BAB +3, CMB +7, CMD 18
Traits - +2 Initiative, +1 Reflex
Feats - Improved Initiative, Combat Reflexes, Power Attack
Skills - Diplomacy +7, Handle Animal +7, Ride +6, Knowledge (Religion) +2, Perception +1, Sense Motive +3; Check Penalty -3 or -4 (w/ shield)
SQ - Smite Evil 1/day, Divine Grace, Detect Evil, Lay on Hands (4/day), Mercy (fatigue)
Equipment - weapons, mwk breastplate, mwk heavy wooden shield, about 1,015 gp worth of nothing.
Languages - Common

Commentary - Gainted +1 BAB, +1 Reflex, +6.5 Hp, +3 skill points. Gained immunity to fear and immunity to disease (time to kill some mummies).

Ban on magic items, yadda yadda, masterwork gear, lays on hands for around 14 more Hp per day and now removes fatigue (which is nice if you've been caught walking a long way, which as a pilgrim, Alexander does).

========================================================================

Hmmmm...

Andoran

Before you post your 3rd level, you need to correct your 2nd to comply with the judges ruling.


ciretose wrote:
Before you post your 3rd level, you need to correct your 2nd to comply with the judges ruling.

If the forum had a decent editing system, I would. Since it doesn't, just assume that they have about 3 less 1st level potions or the equivalent there of.

Silver Crusade

I'm going to say that Ciretose has proven that the fighter is better because Ashiel, obviously, has to resort to rule bending to try and give the ranger and paladin an advantage.

There is really no point in continuing except to give DM's some extra NPCs to use in their games.

Ashiel: You know you are in the wrong in this situation. You claim to be so knowledgeable of the game so you can't play ignorant here. There is no DM around to grant you access to these certain things that you try and slip into the build. Now you either need to come clean and use straight from the book like everyone else is doing or you need to admit defeat and stop.


shallowsoul wrote:

I'm going to say that Ciretose has proven that the fighter is better because Ashiel, obviously, has to resort to rule bending to try and give the ranger and paladin an advantage.

There is really no point in continuing except to give DM's some extra NPCs to use in their games.

Ashiel: You know you are in the wrong in this situation. You claim to be so knowledgeable of the game so you can't play ignorant here. There is no DM around to grant you access to these certain things that you try and slip into the build. Now you either need to come clean and use straight from the book like everyone else is doing or you need to admit defeat and stop.

You have yet to produce a single rule that I've broken. I can produce at least one that Ciretose planned to. I could just as easily say "You know you're wrong, don't play ignorant here" about your entire argument; but I tend to prefer showing results instead of whining and trying to make enough noise to get people to think my tantrums have weight.

EDIT: Y'know what, screw all of this. This is exactly why I didn't want to get into this s@&@ with you guys again. Bob, sure. I'll debate with Bob all day long. If Lemmy wanted to debate, sure. However, I'm done dealing with a rude forum stalker and a guy who gets the rules wrong and then shouts down anyone else who so much as disagrees with him.

Andoran

As to your actual post, consumables are completely fair. I have consumables. I just assume the judges will be considering if your build it dependent on them or if it is just something extra.

You won the ruling, and you are complaining more than I am. Interesting...

If you think the way you are posting is going to get the judges to be more sympathetic to your build, keep it up.

By the time I can afford a +3 Falcion I will be much, much higher level than I am now and able I hope to travel to places where moderately high level wizards live and will be willing to take gold to improve the weapon I already own. Because they can, and the book has prices they would charge to do so.

However no one can craft partial wands. So you can't commission one, even if you want to. You would have to randomly find exactly what you want.

James proposed rolling for it.

Also, maybe spoilers tags like Bob and I?

Andoran

Ashiel wrote:
ciretose wrote:
Before you post your 3rd level, you need to correct your 2nd to comply with the judges ruling.
If the forum had a decent editing system, I would. Since it doesn't, just assume that they have about 3 less 1st level potions or the equivalent there of.

Or copy and paste and repost. Again, preferably behind a spoiler tag like everyone else.

But again, if you want to leave as is and let the judges figure it out, feel free.

We all have complete freedom over what we submit.

Silver Crusade

Ashiel wrote:
shallowsoul wrote:

I'm going to say that Ciretose has proven that the fighter is better because Ashiel, obviously, has to resort to rule bending to try and give the ranger and paladin an advantage.

There is really no point in continuing except to give DM's some extra NPCs to use in their games.

Ashiel: You know you are in the wrong in this situation. You claim to be so knowledgeable of the game so you can't play ignorant here. There is no DM around to grant you access to these certain things that you try and slip into the build. Now you either need to come clean and use straight from the book like everyone else is doing or you need to admit defeat and stop.

You have yet to produce a single rule that I've broken. I can produce at least one that Ciretose planned to. I could just as easily say "You know you're wrong, don't play ignorant here" about your entire argument; but I tend to prefer showing results instead of whining and trying to make enough noise to get people to think my tantrums have weight.

EDIT: Y'know what, screw all of this. This is exactly why I didn't want to get into this s!++ with you guys again. Bob, sure. I'll debate with Bob all day long. If Lemmy wanted to debate, sure. However, I'm done dealing with a rude forum stalker and a guy who gets the rules wrong and then shouts down anyone else who so much as disagrees with him.

Here's the problem. I never said you were breaking the rules but you are giving yourself something that only the DM has the power to give you and you can't do that in this situation. There has to be a happy medium in this contest and you are completely taking advantage of it. I would rather you take your ball and go home to be honest.

PS: I do know the rules thank you very much. Nobody ever proved my wrong on those other threads so I don't even know why and try and bring that up. I just made a lot of people mad because I put doubts in their plans to take advantage of the system the system.


shallowsoul wrote:
Here's the problem. I never said you were breaking the rules but you are giving yourself something that only the DM has the power to give you and you can't do that in this situation. There has to be a happy medium in this contest and you are completely taking advantage of it. I would rather you take your ball and go home to be honest.

I was honest, and you're just wrong. I was following the RAW. But it doesn't matter now. Just drop the honesty thing. Anyone who is literate can see I was being honest. It just takes maybe 10 minutes and the PRD.


ciretose wrote:
GâtFromKI wrote:
ciretose wrote:

It's like that Chris Rock sketch where he walks in and says "how much for one rib?"

A case "might" be made if you had craft wand and made it yourself, but going into the magic shop for custom items is christmas tree GM on steroids.

Don't forget the rules about purchasing item for your fighter either: a +3 falchion is cheese.

Not at all. I can commission a +3 falcion if I find someone capable of making it and I have the gold to pay full price.

You literally can not make partial wands. You can only make full charge wands.

Hence the one rib comment

Therefore, finding a 12-th level wizard with the feat and willing to create the falchion isn't DM fiat, but finding a partial wand is? How many 12-th Wizards are there in a kingdom, how many of them have the feat, and how many of them are willing to craft such a falchion for some unknown PCs?

That make no sense at all. Stop whining because you want to use your houserules and instead of Ashiel's houserules.

The rules state the price of partial wands, and the price of a +3 falchion. The rules state that you can't buy a partial wand, and you can't buy a +3 falchion (barring from a very lucky roll). Either you accept both, either you accept none. I don't care if you accept both or none, but your request for a double standard doesn't make sense in a challenge.

Silver Crusade

Ashiel wrote:
shallowsoul wrote:
Here's the problem. I never said you were breaking the rules but you are giving yourself something that only the DM has the power to give you and you can't do that in this situation. There has to be a happy medium in this contest and you are completely taking advantage of it. I would rather you take your ball and go home to be honest.
I was honest, and you're just wrong. I was following the RAW. But it doesn't matter now. Just drop the honesty thing. Anyone who is literate can see I was being honest. It just takes maybe 10 minutes and the PRD.

Saying I'm wrong doesn't make me wrong. Having access to partially charged wands is a pure DM decision, not yours. You don't get to decide exactly how many charges a wand is going to have so you can afford to buy it. I don't know where you learned your RPG ethics but I would be asking for your money back.

Silver Crusade

GâtFromKI wrote:
ciretose wrote:
GâtFromKI wrote:
ciretose wrote:

It's like that Chris Rock sketch where he walks in and says "how much for one rib?"

A case "might" be made if you had craft wand and made it yourself, but going into the magic shop for custom items is christmas tree GM on steroids.

Don't forget the rules about purchasing item for your fighter either: a +3 falchion is cheese.

Not at all. I can commission a +3 falcion if I find someone capable of making it and I have the gold to pay full price.

You literally can not make partial wands. You can only make full charge wands.

Hence the one rib comment

Therefore, finding a 12-th level wizard with the feat and willing to create the falchion isn't DM fiat, but finding a partial wand is? How many 12-th Wizards are there in a kingdom, how many of them have the feat, and how many of them are willing to craft such a falchion for some unknown PCs?

That make no sense at all. Stop whining because you want to use your houserules and instead of Ashiel's houserules.

The rules state the price of partial wands, and the price of a +3 falchion. The rules state that you can't buy a partial wand, and you can't buy a +3 falchion (barring from a very lucky roll). Either you accept both, either you accept none. I don't care if you accept both or none, but your request for a double standard doesn't make sense in a challenge.

Back up a minute their padre. So if we are going by RAW and partial charged wands then how about we go with custom made items? Their RAW in every sense of the words. Do you think that would be fair?

Andoran

You pop up in threads and link people to your guides, and generally act like the all knowing guru of the game, yet whenever you post an actual build or we really dig into your game, something hinky pops up.

I think you are mad that you are being called out for doing something most GM's won't allow.

If you claim to be an expert, you don't get to complain when your expertise is challenged.

Particularly if you take your ball and go home when things don't go your way.


shallowsoul wrote:
Back up a minute their padre. So if we are going by RAW and partial charged wands then how about we go with custom made items? Their RAW in every sense of the words. Do you think that would be fair?

You know, the funny thing is I wouldn't have complained about that at all. Only insisted that the rules be followed properly. That would include applying the correct pricing for constant effects based on duration (most spells are actually veeeery expensive), and knowing that you can't easily make a true strike item on the cheap unless you want to get the benefits only every other round or so (due to a combination of its unique duration, targeting, and effects, getting one that that works like you might expect generally costs around 90k+ gp).

Fighters need stuff like the ability to get death ward active quickly to survive high levels. Mind blank 1/day on a helmet wouldn't be bad either. If anything, your Fighter should wield an Intelligent item that can at least get you enlarged without burning through too many actions at higher levels.

Andoran

GâtFromKI wrote:
ciretose wrote:
GâtFromKI wrote:
ciretose wrote:

It's like that Chris Rock sketch where he walks in and says "how much for one rib?"

A case "might" be made if you had craft wand and made it yourself, but going into the magic shop for custom items is christmas tree GM on steroids.

Don't forget the rules about purchasing item for your fighter either: a +3 falchion is cheese.

Not at all. I can commission a +3 falcion if I find someone capable of making it and I have the gold to pay full price.

You literally can not make partial wands. You can only make full charge wands.

Hence the one rib comment

Therefore, finding a 12-th level wizard with the feat and willing to create the falchion isn't DM fiat, but finding a partial wand is? How many 12-th Wizards are there in a kingdom, how many of them have the feat, and how many of them are willing to craft such a falchion for some unknown PCs?

That make no sense at all. Stop whining because you want to use your houserules and instead of Ashiel's houserules.

The rules state the price of partial wands, and the price of a +3 falchion. The rules state that you can't buy a partial wand, and you can't buy a +3 falchion (barring from a very lucky roll). Either you accept both, either you accept none. I don't care if you accept both or none, but your request for a double standard doesn't make sense in a challenge.

I love how what my 12th level character might do is being equated to what a 2nd level character can do.

One item can be made. Hell if it rubs people raw I can take a couple feats and make it myself.

But I can't ever make or commission partial wands.

And your side won the ruling, which makes me wonder what kind of tantrum would come if you lost.

No wonder you GMs give you whatever you want...

Silver Crusade

Ashiel wrote:
shallowsoul wrote:
Back up a minute their padre. So if we are going by RAW and partial charged wands then how about we go with custom made items? Their RAW in every sense of the words. Do you think that would be fair?

You know, the funny thing is I wouldn't have complained about that at all. Only insisted that the rules be followed properly. That would include applying the correct pricing for constant effects based on duration (most spells are actually veeeery expensive), and knowing that you can't easily make a true strike item on the cheap unless you want to get the benefits only every other round or so (due to a combination of its unique duration, targeting, and effects, getting one that that works like you might expect generally costs around 90k+ gp).

Fighters need stuff like the ability to get death ward active quickly to survive high levels. Mind blank 1/day on a helmet wouldn't be bad either. If anything, your Fighter should wield an Intelligent item that can at least get you enlarged without burning through too many actions at higher levels.

You do realize that I was being sarcastic? Do you know what I mean by "happy medium"? That means everyone has a middle ground in which to work with. Since we don't have a DM running an AP to help out this contest, we have to set a medium to where everyone has a fair chance. Looking in the back of the CRB you see the prices for wands, potions, scrolls, etc all laid out before you. I'm not talking about the formula in the back for making what ever you want but the actual listing of all items.

Wand Costs
Cleric,
Spell Druid, Paladin,
Level Wizard Sorcerer Bard R anger
0 375 gp 375 gp 375 gp —
1st 750 gp 750 gp 750 gp 750 gp
2nd 4,500 gp 6,000 gp 6,000 gp 6,000 gp
3rd 11,250 gp 13,500 gp 15,750 gp 15,750 gp
4th 21,000 gp 24,000 gp 30,000 gp 30,000 gp

The above chart is what you are supposed to go by. Nobody has a problem with the spell that a wand has but you can't assume you are finding a partially charged wand to fit your budget. That is what the DM is for and since we don't have one then you need to keep things fair. You look at the chart above and you pick what you can afford.


Ashiel wrote:
Want to know what's RAW? Want to know exactly what I plan for when I gain levels? A +2 weapon. That's all.

+3 or more random weapon (because the chance of rolling a +3 or more weapon isn't negligible, and at some point you will find some of those weapons; the chance it is a falchion is very small - each time you find a medium or major item, the chance it is a +3 or more falchion is less than 1 over 1000 - , and the chance it is a falchion with the special property you want is abysmall); or +2 specific weapon with some weak special properties (eg flaming).

----
The loot/purchase system gives an advantage to other classes than fighter, because other classes don't care if they find a +4 vorpal falchion, a +4 vorpal axe or a +4 vorpal sickle. When I play in game without magicmart, I never take the weap focus feat, because I know that a +2 flaming axe/falchion/whatever will be better than a +1 greatsword and weap focus; the fighter is the only class who must use the +1 greatsword instead of the +2 flaming whatever, because his class abilities are tied to the greatsword.

If we choose to ignore this hidden advantage of other classes over the fighter, then we have to compensate with other magicmart-advantages like partial wands for rangers or paladins.

----

ciretose wrote:
No wonder you GMs give you whatever you want...

Once and for all: stop making false assertions, because it doesn't make your post look clever. It only makes you look ridiculous. Eg: it is ridiculous to assume that my DM give me whatever I want because my fighter don't find the +3 falchion.

Andoran

I am asserting that if you GM allows you to buy partial wands at 2nd level prescribed exactly to the amount of gold you have, you have a permissive GM.

You can agree or disagree. But it is an evidenced based assertion.

Andoran

Bob and I posted legit builds. And if you scroll down on the Toz post you always harp on, he and I discuss your allegation and he agrees with me.

I am sorry people who look at your actual build find it suspect.

Andoran

The ruling is in. Ashiel can have the wands.

Winning the ruling and quiting is just interesting to me.


shallowsoul wrote:
Back up a minute their padre. So if we are going by RAW and partial charged wands then how about we go with custom made items? Their RAW in every sense of the words. Do you think that would be fair?

No, cf my last post.

In a real game, the fighter will find his favored weapon; because a good DM won't say "you have +5 to hit/damage with falchion, but you find a +5 vorpal greataxe AHA!" (or he will state it at character creation: "look, I use random loot and no magicmart, therefore you shouldn't specialize into one weapon"). And in a real game, you will also find partial wands, and those wands will contain useful spells, because a good DM won't say "you find a wand with 15 charge of Command plant, but I don't use plant creature and it count in your WBL AHA!". The "useful spell" can be CLW, gravity bow/lead blade, instant enemy, entangle, whatever: the important thing is: you don't chose the spell but it is useful.

Anyway, a "fair" rule for me would be:

  • Wands contains 10, 25 or 50 charges (you can't chose the exact number of charges depending on your remaining money; and no wand with 1 or 2 charges "because it is cheaper than scrolls").
  • Partial wands (10 or 25 charges) shouldn't be indispensable for the build: they contain a useful spell, but not "a spell you absolutely need to make the character work" (because if you really need the spell, you'll have to buy the wand). As a rule of thumbs, you should write : "wand of entangle, 10 charges (or any other useful spell)".
  • "Rechargeable" items (like staves) are fully-charged.

And some rules like this, that doesn't allow custom item, but allow items that exist per RAW (partial wands exist per RAW: buy a wand, use a charge, you now have a partial wand), and doesn't allow "anything because it's convenient". Likewise, you can chose any weapon, but your build shouldn't be based on a powerful particular weapon (same rule of thumbs: you should write "+3 defending falchion (or any other special property)", and certainly not "my AC is low, but I can activate the defending property if necessary" - except if your weapon is "+3 defending whatever").

Oh. And the rules state that 25% of your WBL should be weapons(/offensive gear), 25% should be armor(/defensive gear, including cloak of protection I guess), 25% should be "other stuff" (eg handy haversack, bag of tricks, winged boots...), 15% should be "consumable" (partial wands are here ;) ), and 10% should be "money". A character without any item crafting feat should follow those guidelines, or lose some of his WBL ("I remove 1000 gp from the consumable category in order to gain 500 gp in the weapon category").

Andoran

I am actually a bit offended. I have posted 5 levels of builds with so far no complaint or controversy aside from my poor math skills.

A number of people said Ashiel's build was suspect, we asked for a ruling, I said the ruling was fine, and since I have responses to others about the issue as part of the discussion.

When I posted my builds, it was with full awareness that they would be questioned. James posted his critique, as have others.

But apparently questioning Ashiel is off limits.

Ridiculous.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Ashiel wrote:


The rules are quite clear. There is a high chance of finding any magic item of X value or lower based on community size. That means ..

The argument that wands are somehow rare is about as silly as trying to argue that tiny towns don't have steady access to magic items, when literally the rules say...

Even from a verisimilitude standpoint

Ok I'll bite. How many wands are for sale each week in a given thorp of at most 19 people?

From a quick count, and before you ask for multiples we're talking over 200 wands of just the 1st level cleric spells with 1 to 3 charges.

So each week these less than 20 people have accumulated 150 wands that had to have been made with 50 charges to come into existence.. and that's before you try to argue for multiples or go to the wizard spells (or bard spells, paladin spells, ranger spells, summoner spells, druid spells) not covered on the cleric list.

And that's not all of the possible wands.. just the ones with 1st level cleric spells on them. There's also the partially charged wands of their orisons to consider.. before we move on to the other class's spell lists.

And you want to use the word verisimilitude? I'm not sure it means what you think it means, but it did get me to post on this again.

ciretose wrote:


James proposed rolling for it.

If you're referring to me, I did not. I said that rolling for each wand with a given number of charges was ridiculous and circumventing the idea that something might not be available.

Besides these rules are made not to tie a DM's hands, but as a streamlining to help guide them. Following them blindly is not RAW, but RANI (Rules As Not Intended) and simply abuse. But this abuse is beyond even that.

It would be like going to a metropolis to find a +3 falchion, being told that there wasn't one (die roll came up 82 >75)... then asking about a +3 falchion with the channel foci (consecrated weapon) that adds +150gp to the price. Before the DM goes to roll, you specify which deity when the dice go against you again then you simply start going through the list of deities. Now while there's a chance that the DM consistently rolls no, you're talking 1 in 2^124 which I invite you to get a computer to give you what that value is.. (21267647932558653966460912964485513216). So when I say it's close to zero, what I mean is that it is on par with one chance against the number of seconds that the universe has existed for..

But the partial wand case is worse from an immersive point of view. Verisimilitude is completely broken by the sheer numbers coupled with the fact that NONE of these can be made to order. Meanwhile your plethora of +3 falchions with tassels, bells and what not on them could be crafted for you.. while the wands could not.

-James


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion Subscriber

This thread has gotten out of hand. If I had to guess, I'd say that's because this is a battle of two sides who weren't interested in learning that they were wrong. Part of that is because you can't be wrong in a debate between classes. They all excel differently in different campaigns and even in different adventure paths. Being a wizard in Runelords, for example, is amazing! Being a sorcerer you see all these fun arcane items and spellbooks that have no use to you.

If this were a friendly competition it would be fine. But having skimmed through most of this thread, it's not surprising things became so hostile. This is a feud, not a fun happy good time.


Really? Still on the wands? Haven't we dropped that subject already?

EVERY SINGLE ITEM a character finds is DM Fiat. EVERY. SINGLE. ONE. There is no "Summon permanent item following appropriate WBL" class feature. Whatever the character has, the DM gave to her.

Unless the character crafted the item (and even then, any material component needed is DM fiat!)

Which items are acceptable or not is subjective. Since the beginning I said I'm fine with anything allowed by RAW. We were to compare 3 different classes following RAW. RAI and Houserules can fix anything, but we are discussing how well Paizo made those classes, not how they should've been made or how we make them in our gaming tables.

@Ciretose,
Do you remember what I said in my very 1st post in this thread, back in page 8? No? I'll refresh your memory...

Lemmy wrote:


I've been following this argument for a while now. Generally, I tend to agree with Ashiel, although I do get the point Ciretose is trying to make. This is mainly because of 2 facts.

1- I love fighters, but I do believe they need better toys ASAP. The "stay still or suck" is the part that irks me the most. And as I read somewhere in this forum "It does not matter how high is your DPR and AC if you are paralyzed, petrified or dominated" (in this last case, high DPR and AC are actually a bad thing!).

2- She makes a better presentation of her ideas.
In an ideal world, every idea and argument should be evaluated without bias, independent from who is talking or how it talks. But I can't help but feel compelled to disregard much of ciratose's points when I read things like "I am absolutely certain Ashiel will be arguing for 'clever' rules manipulation" or "My only real concern is Ashiel's history of "creative" reading of the rules", this sounds more like personal attacks and less like proper argumentation, which is mean and pointless.

What could be a very interesting debate quickly derails into rude bickering and accusations. I say this not to point finger or defend one or another PoV, but to clarify that the way you present your words has a great deal of influence on how well they are received.

Also, we all have different house rules, rule interpretations and personalities, so stick to RAW (erratas included), RAI and house rules are irrelevant on any discussion that involves more people than the ones with whom you play. RAW is not perfect but is the one thing all players have in common.

I still mantain everything I said. Can we stop posting about our opinion on other forum members? Didn't we already have a large sum of posts deleted by a Mod for doing that? Was the message not clear enough?

As a rule of thumb, if any post you make begins with "You are/do X" or "(forum member name) is/does Y", then don't post it. Limit yourself to commenting on the subject, not on who is discussing it.

You do not agre with my judging? Okay, you don't have to, I don't think I'm the most qualified to judge anything here. But I'm unbiased about the classes. If any of the contestants don't believe that's the case, there is no point in me being judge.

On a second note, someone said that the loot system is and advantage for classes over the fighters. To what I respond that the point of this is (or at least was) precisely to balance said advantages. A gunslinger also is highly specilized in on type of weapon. If that counts against their effectiveness, then so be it. That's the discussion.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

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Ciretose is also noting you can commission the +3 falchion and have someone work on it.

You can't commission a 10 charge wand.

Also note, thorps have spending limits. The comment on # of wands above was quite accurate. A thorp with a 500 gp limit has two cl 1 potions, maybe 100 gp of alchemical stuff, riding dogs, gear, etc...and then ONE wand with 25 charges, likely the 'reserve healing' of the town's adept.

Being able to go in and say that one wand is three, and buy the one at 5 charges, and leave the other two with ten charges for later purchasing, is metagaming of the highest degree.

Ashiel, you're using highest level of DM permissiveness, and the others are simply not assuming any and all DM's will let you get away with that. Your posts are not about the character you are building...they are about what you can buy.

That's not good when you are comparing character builds. The 'if the DM lets me do all this stuff, I'm great!' approach just isn't flying.

You're trying to change the boundaries of what's being done here, pushing back the limits of what is permitted by making assumptions that nobody else is. You're assuming super-precise and selective purchasing ability, unlimited time, and unlimited availability.

A build should work in all campaigns with what is brought to the table without relying on DM interpretation. And that's where the difficulty is coming in on judging things.

==Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Someone earlier posted that they'd like Animal Companions to be available to fighters.

This feat actually exists in 3.5. Anyone can take it to treat get an Animal Companion, with the level equal to character level -3. A Ranger who takes it gets his AC at full ranger level, instead of ranger level -3.

==Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Lemmy, the full extent of Ciretose's post on 'fighter loot' was that you can commission a permanent magic item, but you can't commission a partially charged wand. It blew up from there.

Now, 'shopping' for a falchion +3? Yeah, unless you're in a major metropolis, statistically you're unlikely to find one.

But you're 100% able to commssion a new one or an upgrade, by the rules.

And he doesn't even have to be a spellcaster, anymore. A decent Expert with the right feats, level 6, can probably do the job without much problem. Just needs to be able to hit a DC 19 skill check with take 10.

For Lemmy, partial wands aren't a big thing.
For too many of the rest of us, it is in a BUILD competition. Too often, when such is done, it comes down to who can pick the best toys for the gold.

==Aelryinth


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James Maisson wrote:
Ok I'll bite. ...

Well let's see. Your thorpe has a steady supply of about 20 different types of 1st level druid spells, about 25 different types of 1st level cleric spells, about 26 different types of 1st level bard spells, about 15 1st level paladin spells, about 19 types of 1st level ranger spells, and about 39 different types of 1st level wizard/sorcerer spells, and those are only scrolls, and that's before counting cantrips and orisons (Scrolls are also the most unwieldy of consumables, making them less appreciated by the masses, since even folks with decent UMD have trouble with them and you risk failing for lower level casters).

Then repeat the above, except with potions. That's tons of potions. You'll be trippin' potions! We got TURBO POTIONS! Raaaagh! You'll buy potions and drink potions and feel so smart you'll want to make your own potions! Because potions are in high demand!

Oh yeah, also those anchors. Got to love those anchor feather tokens.

And then we throw in "mundane items" which aren't exactly mundane at all, like tons of alchemical goodies, tanglefoot bags, alchemist fires, antitoxins, caltrops, tindertwigs, sunrods, and more. Hell, if you assume that about 150 gp isn't "particularly expensive" in comparison to full plate or adamantine longswords we toss everburning torches on the list of items that you can casually purchase in a thorpe. Then there's all the normal stuff like virtually every weapon in the PHB from club the greatsword. Clothing, animals, and other such awesome stuff.

Going by the expectations of the game, one would see that apparently the economy is pretty damn good in your typical D&D/PF game. That's just talking about the junk that's being traded from the core book, and not assuming anything else. Do we suppose that all of that stuff is manufactured in the thorpe? Probably not. Most of it probably makes its way to the tiny villages via trade carts, wagons, and caravans that move around the world (those kinds that adventurers always seem in demand for guarding).

So do I think that by comparison to every other expectancy of availability that some cheap used wands circulating through the economy like used video games circulate through gamestop is somehow breaking with the verisimilitude of the world? Hardly. If anything it makes more sense than assuming that all the other junk is easy to come by, but finding some wands that have been identified and been bought, sold, and traded down are somehow hard to come by, or only come in maximum charges.

What you guys are arguing is covered a bit further down. Specifically:

PRD-Magic Items: Availability wrote:

If you are running a campaign with low magic, reduce the base value and the number of items in each community by half. Campaigns with little or no magic might not have magic items for sale at all. GMs running these sorts of campaigns should make some adjustments to the challenges faced by the characters due to their lack of magic gear.

Campaigns with an abundance of magic items might have communities with twice the listed base value and random items available. Alternatively, all communities might count as one size category larger for the purposes of what items are available. In a campaign with very common magic, all magic items might be available for purchase in a metropolis.

So if you want your campaign to be different then it's entirely within your right to do so. I've run low magic games before too (admittedly, in such games I tend to heavily adjust things for certain classes, because low-magic games give excessive edges to all spellcasters as it's more difficult for non-casters to deal with certain things). I've also run games where you can't purchase magic items at all (but in such games the items you did get were far more permanent and tended to be way better than you get in regular games to compensate, often having special abilities or scaling in power with their wielders).

But as far as verisimilitude is concerned, yes, I think that compared to the rest of the available items, that it fits perfectly. Also, asking stuff like "Do they have any scrolls of X at caster level 6?" and then asking "How about caster 5 instead?" is not the same as trying to fish for items beyond the wealth of a community. Beyond the general economy, the community has a randomly generated assortment of items. That random assortment of items is independent of what anyone is looking for.

Example: If I'm playing a Ranger and I walk into a Large Town (community GP limits of 2,000 gp) I could shop around for most types of items of 2,000 gp or less. However, I really want a +1 goblin bane longbow because my party is going to be heading west into the Forest of Shades to strike at the goblin tribe raiding the local caravans, and I want an edge. The GM has a list of randomly generated magic items above and beyond the normal stuff (a large town has 3d4 minor, 2d4 moderate, and 1d4 major items). He checks his notes and sees that the following items are available in the town:

Quote:

arcane scroll of level 1 spell, enlarge person (caster level 1) 25 gp Scroll

oil of open/close 25 gp Potion / Oil
arcane scroll of level 1 spell, comprehend languages (caster level 1) 25 gp Scroll
divine scroll of level 2 spell, enthrall (caster level 3) 150 gp Scroll
wand of level 1 spell, silent image (caster level 1), with 13 charges 195 gp Wand
potion of cat's grace 300 gp Potion / Oil
potion of blur 300 gp Potion / Oil
oil of invisibility 300 gp Potion / Oil
divine scroll of level 3 spell, magic circle against evil (caster level 5) 375 gp Scroll
+1 small sized tower shield 1,180 gp Shield
ring of jumping, function indicated by an inscription in abyssal 2,500 gp Ring
lesser extend metamagic rod 3,000 gp Rod
lesser bracers of archery 5,000 gp Wondrous Item
lesser empower metamagic rod 9,000 gp Rod
ring of improved climbing 10,000 gp Ring
rod of metal and mineral detection 10,500 gp Rod
iron flask, function indicated by an inscription in abyssal 170,000 gp Wondrous Item

There's no +1 goblin bane sword to be had. Even if I asked about a +2 goblinbane, or a +1 goblin bane that glows, it would not assist my chances of finding the item at all. So my ranger sucks it up and instead instead decides to save his money until he can get to a larger city with more selection, or instead stocks up on stuff that is more common (like a wand of greater magic weapon with 8 or fewer charges).

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