Why fighters suck


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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Liberty's Edge

The issue is fairness to both. An AP or module will include skill challenges as well as combat challenges.

Dark Archive

well then very simple list the AP both have assign a number and use the dice roller, can you get more fair in the picking than that?

or someone else can list 6 AP and roll a d6 here in the forum and presto.

Might as well do it my self.

1.- Carrion Crown
2.- Council of Thieves
3.- Curse of the Crimson Throne
4.- Jade Regent
5.- Kingmaker
6.- Legacy of Fire
7.- Rise of the Runelords
8.- Second Darkness
9.- Serpent's Skull
10.- Skull & Shackle

To be completely fair all AP are divided into 6 parts so we will randomly roll 6d10

6d10 ⇒ (6, 10, 8, 6, 3, 2) = 35
1.- Legacy of Fire (Howl of the Carrion King)
2.- Skull & Shackle (Raiders of the Fever Sea)
3.- Second Darkness (Armageddon Echo)
4.- Legacy of Fire (The End of Eternity)
5.- Curse of the Crimson Throne (Skeletons of Skarwall)
6.- Council of Thieves (The Twice-Damned Prince)

Now it's not a single AP but a mix of parts of an AP to test the character to different random events to see how well they do in the preset encounter according to their levels.

Is this fair enough?

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Deiros wrote:

Again Aelryinth you compare the fighter to the Paladin as if he was specialized in the paladin job when he isn't going to do.

It's like comparing a Paladin to a Cleric, why take the Paladin, clearly the cleric is superior in EVERY way yo the Paladin, it heals more, has domain abilities, spell to do everything other classes do, and if human can also begin with two feats.

That was not a very fair comparison right ^^

The fighter has versatility no power creep supremacy over other classes in their respective field. That is the problem with most people fail to notice.

Fighter doesn't need Wis 14 he just needs a feat to raise his will saves by +2 that he has a better chance to burn than a Paladin ever will.

The paladin has some spells and nifty magic abilities, the fighter gets around his weakness with magic items mostly.

Yet again skills of the paladin are nice, but drop him in the wilderness, make him swim, climb and jump lol let's see how he survives that one, he has super skills right, oh wait he sucks at that why!? Because it is not his role, he has diplomacy, knowledge religion and nobility, he has nice chances at doing something social out of combat and specializes against evil creatures, emergency healing and be a brick wall.

While all that is nice and does it better than the fighter, the fighter can still survive in the wilderness (paladin will not) They can both be brick walls (same armor proficiency and weapons), but the fighter can branch out and also deal damage at a distance (while the paladin specializes at 1 thing).

As I have said before the fighter is there to fill MULTIPLE roles. Just like the Paladin is a crappy cleric, the Fighter is a crappy Paladin but he is better than the crappy paladin in the wilderness, dealing damage consistently and can be above the paladin, he can be as good or even better mounted combatant than the paladin.

Like I said don't measure a class to another that is a specialist in their field, that is plain unfair for the other class.

Otherwise...

Nah, Deiros, you're missing the point.

First of all, you're citing the Will save. That's a general feat. That's not a fighter ability. Notice that nowhere in my example did I quote for General Feats. Any general feat the fighter takes is one less feat advantage against the paladin.
So, you're trying to move the comparison around by mucking up the stats. Either the fighter has a lower Wis, and gives up a feat, or has a higher Wis, and gets a feat back. meh.

In either case, his will save is never better then the Paladin, and lower after level 2. Except the Paladin gets immunity to fear, charms and compulsions..i.e. just about all Will save stuff.

The paladin getting his stuff means he doesn't have to spend that money on magic items to cover them. He can spend that money on OTHER magic items...like ones that help him fly.

And you know, boots of flying take care of all checks for climbing, swimming, and jumping, AND grant a higher move rate, and let you, well, fly and ignore terrain? Your fighter is trying to get what the paladin has, and the paladin is busy using that same money to do what neither of them can do.

He specializes against Evil creatures? No, no, he ABSOLUTELY MURDERS Evil creatures. With weapon bond, he can specialize to the occasion against just about anything. Like, Brilliant weapon on demand against a high AC neutral fighter. Like a Speed, or Keen/Merciful/Fiery weapon against some neutral creature. Or a merciful weapon if he doesn't want to kill something, just take it out faster. Or a Defender +2 if he just wants more free AC.
If he has to throw it on his mace, he does it, and can now one-shot undead. If he has to toss it on a bow, well, it's always going to be ahead of or equal to the fighter's weapon training bonus.

He can't track, true enough. The fighter can't socialize or read people. Generally survival is considered a 'combat' skill, as it certainly isn't used for gathering food.

Remember, we're assuming both of them have absolutely identical gear. If you give the fighter stuff the Paladin doesn't need, then the Paladin gets other stuff, too...probably stuff the fighter wants, as the Fighter has precious little the paladin wants.

==Aelryinth

Liberty's Edge

Ashiel wrote:


Neither method is wrong. We're just different in our priorities.

I think we also have different philosophies on how much a player could reasonably access in a given moment prior to getting a handy haversack.

Which is why I was considering quick draw and you wouldn't.

Verisimilitude matters a lot to the people I game with. Stomach acids would probably effect swallowed spells, for example. And if I only have two arms, carrying an 8 foot longspear, a club, a shield, sling, while wearing a spiked gauntlet, etc...makes me wonder where I am putting all that stuff so I can easily access it prior to a handy haversack coming into play.

Many of your ideas are interesting, and some quite good. But most of our conflicts come from things you think are clever I find unrealistic and/or exploitive. But I'm not the rules judge, so it is not for me to decide in this instance. RAW I guess it's technically fine, but most GMs I've played with would look at me sideways about what I was doing with that 8 foot pole while whipping out other items wearing a metal glove.

As to specifics on damage, keep in mind with regards to damage the Falcion crits on an 18-20. Since average hit point for the encounters we are likely to face are 15 (or higher, since above CR encounters are common in most games) I benefit from the additional damage. And so I'm taking the damage feats now both for now and so I will have them later when the hit points go up (CR 2 is 20 hit points)

I think most under 1 CR mooks won't be able to hit me regularly, and won't do much damage when they do relative to hit points, because mooks don't do much damage. I have a roughly 5% greater likely hood to get hit while also having about 20% more hit points.

I'll post 2nd level when I get home, but I think I'm going to take weapon focus Falcion to get positioned for later weapon specialization at 4. Plus it is helpful to get an attack bonus at low levels where it matters more.

I'll post a full 2nd level build when I get home, but that is where I'm going unless something occurs to me on the car ride home and that covers most of what comes next level, aside from spreading skill points around.

I may not post until later in the evening, as I am running a game this evening.

Liberty's Edge

Deiros wrote:

well then very simple list the AP both have assign a number and use the dice roller, can you get more fair in the picking than that?

or someone else can list 6 AP and roll a d6 here in the forum and presto.

Might as well do it my self.

1.- Carrion Crown
2.- Council of Thieves
3.- Curse of the Crimson Throne
4.- Jade Regent
5.- Kingmaker
6.- Legacy of Fire
7.- Rise of the Runelords
8.- Second Darkness
9.- Serpent's Skull
10.- Skull & Shackle

To be completely fair all AP are divided into 6 parts so we will randomly roll 6d10

6d10
1.- Legacy of Fire (Howl of the Carrion King)
2.- Skull & Shackle (Raiders of the Fever Sea)
3.- Second Darkness (Armageddon Echo)
4.- Legacy of Fire (The End of Eternity)
5.- Curse of the Crimson Throne (Skeletons of Skarwall)
6.- Council of Thieves (The Twice-Damned Prince)

Now it's not a single AP but a mix of parts of an AP to test the character to different random events to see how well they do in the preset encounter according to their levels.

Is this fair enough?

Perfect with one caveat. I am a player in Jade Reagent currently and will be playing Shackles and Skulls and don't want to know what specifically happens.

The rest I've read, run, or played.

Others may have similar issues.

Dark Archive

No I think you missed my point also, it's not that a feat can make the difference and that the paladin has abilities the fighter doesn't, but the fighter can fight in more than one combat style the paladin can't, so he will have a bit hard time filling other combat roles, the fighter can do.

Besides a fighter and paladin will never buy most of the same equipment. But why don't you just like I said post a paladin at different levels with the wealth according to it's level. Level 1,5,10 and 15 for instance and once I get back from a very very annoying niece b-day >< I will gladly submit a fighter of those levels and compare.

Yet again the virtue of the fighter is his versatility not I can smite harder.

Other wise hey my cleric can take the Destruction domain and Smite all, gee the paladin sucks now. Cleric is a full caster, paladin sucks now. I got spells to do everything other classes do, gee paladin doesn't he sucks why take him, take a cleric! I got lots of knowledge and diplomacy. I can do the same thing and even buff me with spells for it, gee paladin sucks I suppose.

Does it seems fair to measure one class against another like the cleric vs. paladin, hell no, the cleric will look better every single time no matter what you try, because I'm measuring him against only his strengths and saying well my X class copes up with magic items, hell all classes do that.


I wanted to build a ranger because bob and ciretose are building very diferent fighter are we only have ashiel ranger to compare, but i find the ranger class incredibly boring :( , i will try with the paladin later.


Deiros, I'm trying to understand your position...

When I read your posts it seems like what your are saying is:

Cleric > Paladin > Fighter

But since Cleric > Paladin, then Fighter = Paladin

What? I'm not even trying to disagree here... I'm actually trying fo understand your logic.

We all know full caster are too powerful. We are not bringing them to discussion mostly because the difference is so obvious that it'd pointless. But 2 full-bab/armor proficient/combat focused classes such as Paladin and Fighter seem like a fair discusssion.

The one good point you made is that Fighters can easily swap between ranged and melee combat, while Paladins has to specialize, probably in melee.

However, the Paladin's Divine Bond ability greatly reduce this difference, and for the fighter to be trully superior in both fighting styles, he'll have to invest in a lot of feats, which he can easily do, but means that difference won't be that much 'til at least mid/high levels, even later if he grabs feats to improve his poor saves.

Ranger can easily turn into great switch hitters, dealing a great deal of damage with melee and ranged. And are simply better than the Fighter when it comes to skills and Saves. All while having only 4 less feats... 5 if you add Heavy Armor Proficiency. And his Animal Companion more than compensates for not getting weapon specialization. All of that without using magic and not even considering Favored Enemy/Terrain, which are situational (although terrains like Urban, Underground and Forests are pretty common and a wand Instant Enemy spell can give the Ranger a large advantage against any enemy).

You say comparing the fighter to the paladin is unfair, I disagree, but even if I didn't,the Ranger still looks like a Fighter+.

I love fighters, I really do. But 'til Paizo decides to give them a buff and remove those crippling feat taxes and unfair prerequisites, they will lag behind other warrior-like classes.

Dark Archive

Maybe I'm not explaining my self well enough then

Paladin is a 3/4 caster with magical abilities that his normal roles are tanking damage and some emergency healing. He has some chance of doing something out of combat.

So under the same circumstance you can't call it totally fair.

Ranger can be a switch hitter (should have kept his d8 for hit die) and he will equal or shadow a 2 weapon fighter or ranged fighter.

What the fighter has going for him combat wise is yet again versatility. he can do all melee roles well: Tank, 2 handed weapon, ranged, two weapons damage, mounted melee, mounted ranged, amongst other builds like the tripper. The downside is they are jack of all trades (combat styles) but masters of none and that is were the rangers and paladins outshine the fighter in their respective fields, but fall down under the fighter on the other roles.

Yes I believe the ranger, barbarian and paladin are the closest to measure the fighter against, but they are specialist in a type of combat and 2 of them have spells and spell like abilities, that make them a half casters (3/4 really).


That is the thing. If the Fighter doesn't have spells, rage, mercies, favored enemy/terrain... Why is he not given something at least as useful?

Barbarians have no spell either, but I rarely see anyone saying "Well, Rangers can do everything Barbarians can do and more!".

Feats are usually not as good as class features. It's doesn't really matter if the fighter have the potential to rock any combat style if in the end feat taxes make sure he's only good in 1 or 2... *maybe* decent in 3.

The system rewards specialization, but the fighter was made following a completely opposite direction.

Agains, fighters are pretty good in combat. He can *possibly* have higher AC, DPR and Combat Maneuvers than anyone else. But the way I see, this difference is simply not enough.

If he consistently dealt about twice as much damage as any other warrior class not fighting its specialized enemy (like a ranger's favored enemy), the "he's much better at combat" argument could possibly even things up. I believe that is not the case.

Hopefully, ciretose will prove me wrong and demonstrate the fighter's combat prowess is trully overwhelming.

I repeat, I don't think fighters suck, but I believe he doesn't keep up. Not even when compared to classes that fill similar roles.

Finally, I disagree. All martial classes from 3.5 deserved all buffs they got and more. The problem is not the ranger or paladin being buffed too much, it's the fighter not being buffed enough. (In addition to weapon's/combat maneuver's needless nerfs)


Quote:
Paladin is a 3/4 caster

1/4 caster actually.


Ashiel wrote:
I was curious. Living off wands is kind of a bad way to be, but it explains how your HP has managed to stay going. I must say, however, that for me it's hard to believe CR 15-16 without gear is even possible, unless something really bizarre is going on. I just know that without their spells and such that encounters 1/2 that CR can kill a more or less naked party. I can't help but wonder what these encounters consisted of and their tactics, because it seems like you guys should be clearly dead. CR 18 encounters are things of nightmares. >.>

A composite CR 15-16. A pair of stone golems (one a shield guardian), a wizard backing them up with mud to stone, and an odd half dozen clockwork soldiers. They caught us in a narrow T hallway with party members on either side of the T, separated. Survival was a matter of the two fighters dishing out ridiculous amounts of damage with power attack against fairly low ACs (even if they took a murderous pounding in return) and the spellcasters doing everything in their power to keep the other wizard from obliterating us.

We survived that fight almost purely because the fighters were able to dish out enough damage every 1 1/2 rounds (2 turns from 1, 1 from another) even with nonmagical weapons to drop a stone golem despite the DR.

The CR 18 was fully geared, engaged on our terms, with a pack of shadows as the primary weapon against it. An astral dreadnought is not as frightening when it's soaked 20+ strength damage. Even so, the party again took a murderous pounding.

Ashiel wrote:
That being said, not being able to rest sucks for everyone. The reason I asked is because not being able to rest leads to fatigue and exhaustion; which is the martial equivalent of not being able to prepare spells; since happy-sticks don't restore fatigue.

Lesser restoration does however, and we're sitting on four more potions of that. That said, it's only been approximately eight hours since we started on the day.

Ashiel wrote:
But since you are a wizard, I'll give you a cool trick that you can use later. Since you can keep your cantrips prepared forever, and thus do not need to re-prepare stuff like prestidigitation and mage hand, you may consider in the future hiding spells on your person, or even eating them. Shrink object lasts for a very long time, and can be used to store pages from your spellbook in tubes. You can then smuggle them around. Worst case scenario, you shove a tiny scroll case up your bung-hole, or swallow them. Later you poop them out, prestidigitation them clean, and then prepare your spells.

O.O

Ashiel wrote:
That being said, assuming you somehow made it as far as you guys have with guile and luck, a demilich will end all of you unless your GM is rigging the fights for you to win. From the sound of it, you couldn't handle a regular lich who wanted you dead, let alone a demilich. Something just smells awfully fishy from this end

The Pathfinder Demilich is pretty damn nasty. I tend to think that it's way under-CRed for it's mass AoE wail of the banshee which will outright kill 3/5ths of the party on a failed save, much less it's save (DC 24) or die with a 2 permanent negative level penalty even for success. The only way I can see us having any success at all is through putting fighters right in its face and having them ready to partial charges to attack if it tries to get off a Spell-like ability. Even then it's going to be a terribly risky and drawn out affair that will likely end up with at least a couple casualties, especially since I seriously doubt we'll encounter it alone.

Liberty's Edge

Well, me and Bob. Fighters (as we will demonstrate) do more damage normally with a wide range of weapons, inherently. And they have more access to damage dealing since they are eligible for fighter specific feats.

And they suffer less from armor penalties (including movement penalties) meaning they can wear heavier armor without heavier penalties.

One of the best things about a fighter that we won't show here is the "We found X, and it is useful to me" aspect. While fighters can (and mine will) specialize, they can also just find X item in the campaign and use it better than anyone else.


Peter Stewart wrote:

A composite CR 15-16. A pair of stone golems (one a shield guardian), a wizard backing them up with mud to stone, and an odd half dozen clockwork soldiers. They caught us in a narrow T hallway with party members on either side of the T, separated. Survival was a matter of the two fighters dishing out ridiculous amounts of damage with power attack against fairly low ACs (even if they took a murderous pounding in return) and the spellcasters doing everything in their power to keep the other wizard from obliterating us.

We survived that fight almost purely because the fighters were able to dish out enough damage every 1 1/2 rounds (2 turns from 1, 1 from another) even with nonmagical weapons to drop a stone golem despite the DR.

The CR 18 was fully geared, engaged on our terms, with a pack of shadows as the primary weapon against it. An astral dreadnought is not as frightening when it's soaked 20+ strength damage. Even so, the party again took a murderous pounding.

Lesser restoration does however, and we're sitting on four more potions of that. That said, it's only been approximately eight hours since we started on the day.

O.O

The Pathfinder Demilich is pretty damn nasty. I tend to think that it's way under-CRed for it's mass AoE wail of the banshee which will outright kill 3/5ths of the party on a failed save, much less it's save (DC 24) or die with a 2 permanent negative level penalty even for success. The only way I can see us having any success at all is through putting fighters right in its face and having them ready to partial charges to attack if it tries to get off a Spell-like ability. Even then it's going to be a terribly risky and drawn out affair that will likely end up with at least a couple casualties, especially since I seriously doubt we'll encounter it alone.

Actually that all sounds like the spell casters were doing the heavy lifting. They had to counter spell casters, control shadows, and presumably be the ones that keep the party near the demilich, so that it doesn't just snipe the party to death from 300 feet, and counter any casting that said demilich has.

Plus they will be the ones that have to cast slow on the party melee so that they can ready partial charges.


what the last fighter i played had.

Sven had
1 adamantium greatsword
2 composite longbows w/ a boatload of blanched ammuntion and several backup bowstrings.
3 slings with a boatload of pebbles
1 cold iron club
1 silver club
1 adamantium glaive
1 cold iron dagger
1 silver dagger
1 cold iron spiked gauntlet
1 musket with a boatload of paper cartridges (pre gun rules)
1 suit of alchemically treated fullplate protected against rust with plenty of anti rust solution (to stop them rust monsters)
1 heavy woooden shield
the steadfast determination feat (3.5 PHB2)
multiple oils of enlarge person, fly and magic weapon for when the circumstances needed them.
1 cold iron guisarme
several flasks of acid and alchemists fire
many 1st level potions of lesser restoration and resist energy.
and he wore most of this stuff strapped to his person.

he was a walking armory. 7'7" built like a freaking linebacker. his movespeed was like 20ft after all this equipment. but he was prepared for all sorts of scenarios. i don't has his sheet anymore, but i remember he had a boatload of equipment.


ciretose wrote:

Well, me and Bob. Fighters (as we will demonstrate) do more damage normally with a wide range of weapons, inherently. And they have more access to damage dealing since they are eligible for fighter specific feats.

And they suffer less from armor penalties (including movement penalties) meaning they can wear heavier armor without heavier penalties.

One of the best things about a fighter that we won't show here is the "We found X, and it is useful to me" aspect. While fighters can (and mine will) specialize, they can also just find X item in the campaign and use it better than anyone else.

I don't know if I'm going to show that. I haven't fully decided where my builds are going. I do know that the three things I want to show are 1) low Con does not mean the fighter can't survive, 2) halflings can make great fighters, and 3) two weapon fighting with two different weapons won't have much impact on the overall effectiveness of the fighter. I know that the first two of these were not issues in this thread but they are things I see often enough that I wanted to tackle them.


ciretose wrote:


...they can also just find X item in the campaign and use it better than anyone else.

This is just demonstrably false. Never mind the fact that without UMD there is entire sections of the magic items chapter that's off limits to them. If a fighter specializes in two-handed weapons than the ranged spec'd character is going to out perform the fighter who hasn't invested in ranged combat. Even in a party with out any characters invested in ranged combat in it, it is just as likely that the cleric or druid (or any class with buffs and field control) could be the best choice for the bow as it is the fighter.


Don't get me wrong, ciretose. I'm sure fighters can deal and absorb lots of damage and are able to successfully switch back-and-forth between ranged and melee combat.

I'm sure he can land a few combat maneuvers in combat too.

But is the fighter's extra damage/AC worth the lower saves, worse skill set and lack of class features? I don't think so, but then again, I may be wrong (I hope so).

Fighters lack unique tricks. Whatever he can do, everyone can. Best case scenario, he does it with bigger numbers and maybe a bit sooner.

I want fighters who can pull off stunts that noone else can! I want them to have more options than "I hit it with my pointy stick. Hard.".

I want them (and really, all martial classes) to be able to move a few steps without losing 75% of his efficiency! I want an epic fighter capable of defeating armies with a single swing of his sword. I want him to be so good in battle that demons would think twice when trying to decide between hitting the fighter or his cleric friend. I want a fighter that can hit things that are impossible to hit! Incorporeal or not, that ghost better run if it doesn't want to die again!

An epic wizard can create a world and an epic cleric can populate it with angels, so an epic fighter should be able to cut the world in half while decimating its heavenly population.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Deiros wrote:

Maybe I'm not explaining my self well enough then

Paladin is a 3/4 caster with magical abilities that his normal roles are tanking damage and some emergency healing. He has some chance of doing something out of combat.

So under the same circumstance you can't call it totally fair.

Ranger can be a switch hitter (should have kept his d8 for hit die) and he will equal or shadow a 2 weapon fighter or ranged fighter.

What the fighter has going for him combat wise is yet again versatility. he can do all melee roles well: Tank, 2 handed weapon, ranged, two weapons damage, mounted melee, mounted ranged, amongst other builds like the tripper. The downside is they are jack of all trades (combat styles) but masters of none and that is were the rangers and paladins outshine the fighter in their respective fields, but fall down under the fighter on the other roles.

Yes I believe the ranger, barbarian and paladin are the closest to measure the fighter against, but they are specialist in a type of combat and 2 of them have spells and spell like abilities, that make them a half casters (3/4 really).

The fighter does NOT do all those things well at the same time. His Armor is potentially higher...but he has to have the dex to take advantage of it. He's strictly worse at self-healing because he can't restore his hit points.

The only thing a fighter does strictly better is pure Archery. TWF is a bad DPR contest...a Greatsword does better. Mounted Combat is dependent on the mount, and the paladin can get a better one if he builds to it. Spirited Charge is not a long feat tree. Even tripper builds aren't that intensive...but they also aren't as effective now as in 3.5.

Between spells and weapon bond, a Paladin is virtually never at much of a DPR behind a Fighter...and is completely dominating if they need to nova a smite.

On top of that, the defenses are simply so much better...immune to fear, disease, charms and compulsions? On top of two good saves and Cha to saves? A higher level paladin can throw out more healing a day then a Wand of CLW...that's NOT lesser healing ability.

a Paladin is a half caster, not a 3/4 caster...3/4 are the magos and the bard, clearly superior, although the lay/hands and mercies are extremely good kickers.
===========
If you want to build a fighter build with gear, go ahead. Just don't go buying disposables and counting it as WBL to leverage your ability at every level (like saying a f/10 has DR 10/adamantine because he can afford a Stone Salve potion).

I'll use as close to the same gear as possible.

If stats are an issue, just use the Elite array of 16, 14, 13,12,10,8. My paladin would probably go Str, Cha, Con, Dex, Int, Wis. All stat raises to Str.

The paladin needs less gear from several standpoints, and the versatility and power of the weapon bond able to turn even a second or third string weapon into something extremely effective shouldn't be underestimated. It's not awesome at low levels, but at low levels the fighter doesn't have much advantage. At level 17, the fighter is racking up his crit feats, but the Paladin's weapon, any weapon is +5 better then the fighter's is, 4 times a day (meaning,every fight) for 17 minutes at a time (meaning, this fight and the next one, too).

The fighter will be somewhat ahead at lower levels on DPR with a fully specialized weapon, if he grabs the whole spec&crit chain. But that narrows, and isn't customizable, as the fighter levels, and he'll be behind at every other weapon type and class.

Weapon bond really IS that useful.

==Aelryinth

Liberty's Edge

WPharolin wrote:
ciretose wrote:


...they can also just find X item in the campaign and use it better than anyone else.
This is just demonstrably false. Never mind the fact that without UMD there is entire sections of the magic items chapter that's off limits to them. If a fighter specializes in two-handed weapons than the ranged spec'd character is going to out perform the fighter who hasn't invested in ranged combat. Even in a party with out any characters invested in ranged combat in it, it is just as likely that the cleric or druid (or any class with buffs and field control) could be the best choice for the bow as it is the fighter.

Magic items, yes. But remember the fighter gets bonuses to a range of weapons, not just a single weapon. Most fighters are going to pick either a melee or ranged first, with the other 2nd.

This means by 9th level they have two sets of items they get above and beyond bonuses from that stack with everything else. Combine this with the number of feats fighters get, and they almost certainly are effective both with range and melee.

They may also be able to use the bow, but odds are they can't use it as effectively.

But I'll have to show it as the build continues.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I never thought of the value of picking a melee weapon group then a ranged weapon group. I just picked whichever groups seemed most appropriate to the character, in the order they seemed most apropriate in.

I never thought of the value of mixing up the first two to ensure a better switch hitter. Seems sound.

Liberty's Edge

2nd level

Spoiler:

=================================================
2nd Level Human Fighter
==================================================
Init +4; Perception +2
Hp: 20.5 (1d10 +1 + 3 Toughness)
AC: 18, touch 12, flat 16 (+6 armor, +2 dex)
Fort +4, Ref +2, Will +1 (+2 vs fear)
==================================================
Speed 20 ft. (30 ft.)
Melee: Masterwork Falcion +8 (2d4+9 (power attack) or Club +6 (1d6+9) (both if two-handed)
Ranged: Shortbow +4 (1d6), Sling +3 (1d3+4, 50 bullets)
==================================================
Str 18, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 7
BAB +1, CMB +5, CMD 17
Traits - +2 Initiative, +1 Will save
Feats - Toughness, Power Attack, Furious Focus, Weapon Focus (Falcion)
Skills Ranks – Climb (+8, +4 in armor), Intimidate (+2), Knowledge [dungeoneering] (+5), Knowledge [Engineering] (+5), Perception (+2), Stealth (+4), Survival (+5)
Equipment - Weapons, Masterwork Breastplate, Cure Light wounds (2), endure elements (1), Oil of Magic weapon (1) 44 gp worth of goods

Thought about deadly aim and/or going with a composite bow at this point, but I will wait a level on that and instead get weapon focus out of the way. Most 2nd level encounters tend to stay close, and I'll be able to take deadly aim later. And I went with some cheap disposables rather than the composite. I can see the benefits of either.

Stepped the armor up to a breastplate, which is the same armor penalty but +1 to AC. Next level I'll get full movement in medium armor, so I will probably just upgrade the medium until I can get full movement in heavy at 7th level.

Not sure if I will take Iron Will with my 3rd level feat or something else.

My attack bonus and damage with the falcion is very strong for this level, and the damage really does matter when CR 2 creatures have 20 hit points. I've got a decent array of skills, which will improve next level when my armor check penalty goes down.

Let me know if I missed anything or messed anything up.

Liberty's Edge

Ravingdork wrote:

I never thought of the value of picking a melee weapon group then a ranged weapon group. I just picked whichever groups seemed most appropriate to the character, in the order they seemed most apropriate in.

I never thought of the value of mixing up the first two to ensure a better switch hitter. Seems sound.

The 3.5 fighter was very flawed. Most people generally focused on a weapons and ubered the hell out of it.

The pathfinder fighter really was re-designed to be a switch hitter, IMHO. Yes, you can DPR Olympics an item (I'm kind of doing that with the falcion in this build) but you will also be able to be good with a ranged weapon in the same build, thanks to the bonuses you get to a range of weapons that stack with everything else.

I think focusing on single weapon type damage can be a mistake if you aren't getting a huge boost out of it, and could be getting a nice bump to your alternative weapon. Particularly since fighting Two-Handed isn't horribly feat intensive.

I am glad Bob is building a completely different type of fighter, because I think the lack of versatility argument is just wrong, and caused by 3.5 thinking.


My issue isn't that the fighter can't win DPR he can, but he doesn't win it by THAT much. Almost all the martials can get close without class abilities and after class abilities that thin margin gets even thinner. These other classes fight almost as well AND have significant other powers.

The issue is that another martial can fill in for whichever way you were going to go with that fighter. All that fighter versatility with multiple styles doesn't really kick in until between 8-12 level. Until then most fighters are focused on one real combat style(that the ranger can easily keep up with and the pally's supernatural defenses help them fill a number of fighter roles.

To echo many of the people above I love fighters, but mechanically the fall behind most of the other martial classes. They need something that's theirs alone every other class has unique abilities(not a few feats that a number of classes/prestige classes/archetypes allow you to treat class level X as a fighter levels for certain fighter specific feats). Feats aren't the equal of class abilities. Even if they are why do fighters get 2 suck saves and crap for skills? Fighters, barbarian, and cavaliers are the only martials with one good save and both of the others get 4 skill points/level and have significant class abilities.

Are extra feats a little more damage with weapons and the ability to move quickly with armor(actually only worth about 2-3 AC and maybe 10 feet in movement) equal to all the abilities of a cavalier or barbarian. You know its not.


ciretose wrote:
2nd level build + stuff

A few friends have volunteered to to play your fighter(s) in a series of level appropriate challenges. We'll switch off regularly, with a different person playing the fighter and playing DM. To account good/bad rolling or crits or whatever, the challenges will be run 5 times each.

So far...you're fighter cannot kill Lantern Archons, but Lantern Archons are a bullshit monster anyway, so that isn't saying anything.

Dark Archive

Aelryinth

I don't say he can do them all at the same time but he can do at least 2 at the same time.

It is a lesser healing ability in a PARTY role, that was his role, since if there is a cleric his healing is never going to be as pretty. I was referring as his role in a party in that section, sorry if I was not clear.

Fighter gets +5 damage and to hit with a weapon group and +4 with another +3 with another +2 with another, while the paladin has a single super powerful magic stick, that is why my fighter always has sunder ^^ many times has that antipaladin pointed the magi stick to see it gone puff.

Yes the paladin weapon bond is an AWESOME ability.

In general the Paladin can outshine the fighter (in all his intended roles) and do below average in others.

The fighter just does well in any combat style, but he will never be as good as a mounted paladin/cavalier in mounted combat but hey if you need someone to fight mounted in the party and there is no paladin/cavalier the fighter can pull it of because of it's feats.

In party terms that is the place the fighter shines he can fill in roles that are needed in combat (regrettably only there) unless you take 1 level of the archetypes that give him skills and skill points and then switch it to another archetype.

Archetypes is the best thing that happened to fighter in terms of making them specialist in a single combat style, but they can still branch out to other styles. The only problem is the abilities are a bit stronger than a feat but nothing to make them say they are beyond a feat power level.

Liberty's Edge

WPharolin wrote:
ciretose wrote:
2nd level build + stuff

A few friends have volunteered to to play your fighter(s) in a series of level appropriate challenges. We'll switch off regularly, with a different person playing the fighter and playing DM. To account good/bad rolling or crits or whatever, the challenges will be run 5 times each.

So far...you're fighter cannot kill Lantern Archons, but Lantern Archons are a b@@#~@## monster anyway, so that isn't saying anything.

Yeah, that is like saying "So far your Wizard has been pwned by Golems" :)

Liberty's Edge

WPharolin wrote:
ciretose wrote:
2nd level build + stuff

A few friends have volunteered to to play your fighter(s) in a series of level appropriate challenges. We'll switch off regularly, with a different person playing the fighter and playing DM. To account good/bad rolling or crits or whatever, the challenges will be run 5 times each.

So far...you're fighter cannot kill Lantern Archons, but Lantern Archons are a b*%~$$*+ monster anyway, so that isn't saying anything.

Also, in fairness I hope you are running Ashiel and Bob as well. I am not claiming to be an expert on fighters, out there writing guides for how people should do things and spamming links to them. Bob will actually probably do a better job of it than I am.

I'm more showing the pathfinder fighter is much more versatile than people think.


ciretose wrote:
WPharolin wrote:
ciretose wrote:
2nd level build + stuff

A few friends have volunteered to to play your fighter(s) in a series of level appropriate challenges. We'll switch off regularly, with a different person playing the fighter and playing DM. To account good/bad rolling or crits or whatever, the challenges will be run 5 times each.

So far...you're fighter cannot kill Lantern Archons, but Lantern Archons are a b@@#~@## monster anyway, so that isn't saying anything.

Yeah, that is like saying "So far your Wizard has been pwned by Golems" :)

Why would anyone say that? Wizards own golems. Especially after the Advanced Player's Guide. The last wizard I played loved seeing golems, because it meant that we were going to steamroll that encounter. I mean, at 11th level a wizard can clear such an encounter with 1-2 spells around 4th-5th level, without ever getting into melee with the critter. :\

Not even being Schrodinger about it either. All you might want is Dazing Acid Arrow and Create Acid Pit. The acid arrow is optional, even. The battle is basically over at that point.

EDIT: And if you have friends at all, you can just stunlock the golem with a 2nd level spell + rod, and then alchemist fire bomb it to death. Fast healing 10 cannot keep up with you, your familiar, your party's divine caster, your party's martial, and your party's sneak all throwing 2 flasks of alchemist fire per round on it. That's an average of 17.5 to 35 points of damage every round, with nothing the golem can do about it, while also eating an average of 7 acid damage every round for several rounds. EDIT: So that's 1 2nd level spell, a charge from a lesser rod (which recharges daily), some normal alchemical items. If you have an alchemist or similar, it'll go faster.


proftobe wrote:
My issue isn't that the fighter can't win DPR he can, but he doesn't win it by THAT much. Almost all the martials can get close without class abilities and after class abilities that thin margin gets even thinner. These other classes fight almost as well AND have significant other powers.

Pretty much this.

Liberty's Edge

All spells at all times, not schrodinger at all...stop derailing and update your build.


2nd Level Characters, for WPharolin to play around with. I hope people aren't just doing combat encounters, because there's a lot more to adventuring than playing Chess with the GM. :P

2nd Level Human Ranger
==================================================
Init +8; Perception +6
Hp: 17.5 (2d10+2)
AC: 18-20, touch 12, flat 16-18 (+6 armor, +2 dex, +2 shield*)
Fort +4, Ref +5, Will +2
==================================================
Speed 20 ft. (30 ft.)
Melee: Mwk Warhammer +7 (1d8+4/x3) or Club +6 (1d6+4) or Longspear +6 (1d8+6/x3, reach, brace) or Spiked Gauntlet +6 (1d4+4, cannot be disarmed)
Ranged: Club +4 (1d6+4) or Sling +4 (1d3+3, rocks)
Combat Gear: Potion of Enlarge Person (3), Oil of Magic Weapon (2), Wand of Entangle (3 charges), Wand of Longstrider (3 charges), Wand of Cure Light Wounds (4 charges), alchemist fire (10)
==================================================
Str 18, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 7
BAB +2, CMB +6, CMD 18
Traits - +2 Initiative, +1 Will save
Feats - Combat Reflexes, Improved Initiative*, Rapid Shot*
Skills - Climb +6, Disable Device +3, Heal +5, Knowledge (Dungeoneering) +4, Knowledge (Nature) +4, Knowledge (Geography) +4, Linguistics +2 (+2 Lang), Perception +6, Ride +6, Stealth +9, Spellcraft +4, Survival +5 (+6 tracking), Swim +6; Check Penalty -5 to -7
Equipment - weapons, chain mail, heavy wood shield, combat gear, 38 gp worth of additional equipment
Languages - Common, Goblin, Dwarven

Commentary - Eleowyn has grown a little since last time. She has amassed about 1,000 gp beyond her starting equipment, acquired via her adventures with Alexander. She was gifted a masterwork warhammer after she aided in the rescue of some dwarf warriors against an ogre (who were obviously shocked by her goblinoid tribal tattoos, but help is help). She has purchased a few potions and/or oils from the local apothocary, and bought some second hand wands. She also bought a cloak dyed to absorb light and muffle sound (mwk tool, stealth).

She also received a +1 to Fortitude and Reflex saves this level, 6.5 HP (counting her Con), and a +1 to hit, CMB, and CMD. Picked up Rapid Shot as part of her natural talents.

While visiting with the dwarfs, she realized some striking similarities between goblin tongue and dwarven, and learned a working knowledge of it. The learning also increased her skill at figuring out some of the other old languages (hence a 5% increase to deciphering texts). She spent some time learning more about the supernatural (spellcraft +4 now allows her a variety of new trained-only options), learned to pick simple locks and remove basic traps, learned to ride, learned more about maps and land formations (geography +4), and got better at some old skills (particularly Stealth + Perception).

========================================================================

2nd Level Human Paladin
==================================================
Init +8; Perception -1
HP: 17.5 (1d10+1)
Fort +7, Ref +6, Will +4
AC: 18-20, touch 12, flat 16-18 (+6 armor, +2 dex, +2 shield*)
==================================================
Speed 20 ft. (30 ft.)
Melee mwk ranseur +6 (2d4+4/x3, disarm), club +5 (1d6+3) or longspear +5 (1d8+4/x3, reach, brace) or Spiked Gauntlet +5 (1d4+3, no disarm)
Ranged sling +4 (1d3+2, rocks)
Combat Gear - Wand of Lesser Restoration (3 charges), Wand of Cure Light Wounds (12 charges), Wand of Bless Weapon (2 charges), Wand of Magic Weapon (2 charges), Wand of Endure Elements (7 charges), oil of enlarge person (2), oil of shillelagh (2), potion of undetectable alignment (1)
==================================================
Str 16, Dex 14, Con 13, Int 7, Wis 7, Cha 16
BAB +2, CMB +6, CMD 17
Traits - +2 Initiative, +1 Reflex
Feats - Improved Initiative, Combat Reflexes
Skills - Diplomacy +7, Handle Animal +7, Ride +6, Knowledge (Religion) +2, Perception -1, Sense Motive +2; Check Penalty -5 to -7
SQ - Smite Evil 1/day, Divine Grace, Detect Evil, Lay on Hands (4/day)
Equipment - weapons, chain mail, heavy wooden shield, ox trained to kick ass, combat gear, leather barding for samson, 5 gp
Languages - Common

Not a whole lot has changed with Alexander. As far as equipment goes, he got a spiked gauntlet gifted to him from a retired warrior as thanks for helping out around his farm for a few days, concerning some bandit raiders. He picked up a masterwork ranseur off one of the bandits, and has made it his primary weapon (he really likes the feel of the grip) and finds it useful for disarming at reach. He has picked up some wands second hand which he can use. He also has a potion of undetectable alignment for when he doesn't want to be noticed by bad guys.

This level he gained 6.5 HP, +1 Fortitude, +1 Will, and got Divine Grace (another +3 to Fortitude, Reflex, and Will), and Lay on Hands. Lay on Hands can be used as a swift action, and heals an average of 3.5 damage each time. This gives him an average HP per day of 17.5 + 14 healing = 31 HP / day on average (tip: for those really looking to optimize a Paladin, there's a Paizo published feat on the d20pfsrd.com that increases healing your receive by +2 per die and some other stuff; but it can only be taken at 1st level, so I missed it).

For skills he brushed up on his religious teachings, and learned a good bit about common undead creatures. He also learned to ride well. His poor Perceptions are slowly improving now that he's getting used to there being danger about.

An interesting combat tactic that is worth noting is that if he has a moment to prepare for a particularly bad battle, he will use both an oil of shillelagh on his club, and then an enlarge person oil on himself. The combination makes him a 10 ft. tall behemoth with AC 18 (counting shield) that hits a 3d6+5 damage, or 3d6+7 if he drops his shield. If he has allies, he will generally have a friendly ally apply one or more oils for him.

You can expect to see this sort of tactic later on with the ranger. Eleowyn will by 4th level be able to stack enlarge person, shillelagh, and lead blades to have her club deal 6d6+1 damage per hit as a one-handed weapon.

EDIT: Also, WPharolin, please remember Alexander's ox Samson. He's bought and paid for and is part of my equipment, and was trained by my own skills. He has 22 HP, AC 15, Trample for 2d6+9, and a +7 to hit for 1d8+9 damage. He increases my DPR quite a bit at low levels.


ciretose wrote:
All spells at all times, not schrodinger at all...stop derailing and update your build.

When they're spells you would normally prepare, it's not. Also, please stop being such a jerk.

Liberty's Edge

WBL isn't 1000. It is 1000 including.

Cheese crafting limited charge wands to get around cost...so it begins...next will be the odd number item enhancements I am sure.

Can we go by book items at book prices, please. I defer to the rules judge.

Liberty's Edge

It's like that Chris Rock sketch where he walks in and says "how much for one rib?"

A case "might" be made if you had craft wand and made it yourself, but going into the magic shop for custom items is christmas tree GM on steroids.


WPharolin wrote:


So far...you're fighter cannot kill Lantern Archons, but Lantern Archons are a b%%!!&&% monster anyway, so that isn't saying anything.

Note that no one of the build posted wold kill that lantern archon.


ciretose wrote:

It's like that Chris Rock sketch where he walks in and says "how much for one rib?"

A case "might" be made if you had craft wand and made it yourself, but going into the magic shop for custom items is christmas tree GM on steroids.

If you had been playing an adventure or AP, and a 3-charges-wand-of-uber had dropped and been given as treasure to a low level player, would you have complained that the player was cherry picking wands?

If the answer is no, then why would you complain if, in a thought experiment, someone added a 3-charges-wand-of-uber as part of levelling up?

Honest question. My DM hands out low-charge wands all the time. Our sorcerer is carrying something like 4 different wands of various spells, and the cleric has at least 3.


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ciretose wrote:

It's like that Chris Rock sketch where he walks in and says "how much for one rib?"

A case "might" be made if you had craft wand and made it yourself, but going into the magic shop for custom items is christmas tree GM on steroids.

Craft wand cannot help you as you must craft fully charged wands.

You might find a partially charged wand available, but the odds of it being the exact spell that you want is up there with the DM suddenly rolling behind the screen because you are low on hps and then having the creature that was hitting you on a 4 missing you several times in a row..

I'd suggest more of the following: paid 1/2 of the price of a wand of clw for the party healer to use. Again these PCs are not alone, but members of some nebulous party. I don't know about the rest of you, but I've tended to see low level parties pool resources for a wand of clw, big armor for the fighter, etc... and just have it balance out in the end.

I would suggest removing the 'random' partially charged wands,

James


I believe ciretose is right about WBL including items. So a lvl 2 character woudl not have 1k, she'd have (1k - equipment).

About not fully charged wands, I'm on the fence, I think they'd be harder to come by, but that's debatable, and like I said betore, as far as internet discussions go, if it's RAW, it's fair game.

What I'm curious about is how do you plan on comparing characters? What was decided after all? What challenges will be faced? Who'll DM? How?

And I must say, without any disregard to Ashiel's or cirestose's characteers, right now I'm most curious about Bob's build, they sure look interesting.


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Ashiel wrote:
An interesting combat tactic that is worth noting is that if he has a moment to prepare for a particularly bad battle, he will use both an oil of shillelagh on his club, and then an enlarge person oil on himself. The combination makes him a 10 ft. tall behemoth with AC 18 (counting shield) that hits a 3d6+5 damage, or 3d6+7 if he drops his shield. If he has allies, he will generally have a friendly ally apply one or more oils for him.

An interesting note to your interesting tactic...

With simply enlarge person a fighter is dealing more and not requiring an inordinate of further actions (drop hammer<free>, draw club, draw oil, apply oil, potentially unequip shield, drop shield<free>). By my count that's 3 move actions and a standard on top of the enlarge which is looking to be a move & standard or 1 round. Now some of the myriad of actions that this requires could be done by others, but it still eats up that many actions.

Now I know you were saying that your case was only when the ranger could buff unhindered before a fight.. but in all honesty that speaks against you.

In general your ranger is dealing far less damage than the fighter. This puts the burden on the remainder of the party to deal more damage. Your ranger contributes a few skills and a partially charged wand or so at this point. You might be a little better off picking up a riding dog that you've trained to defend you. They've been nerfed a bit in PF vs 3.5, but it still highlights your handle animal over the fighter. (Edit: sorry I didn't notice that you don't have that and a 7CHA to boot, mea culpa.. perhaps a bow to use that rapid shot with?).

-James

Liberty's Edge

Zilvar2k11 wrote:
ciretose wrote:

It's like that Chris Rock sketch where he walks in and says "how much for one rib?"

A case "might" be made if you had craft wand and made it yourself, but going into the magic shop for custom items is christmas tree GM on steroids.

If you had been playing an adventure or AP, and a 3-charges-wand-of-uber had dropped and been given as treasure to a low level player, would you have complained that the player was cherry picking wands?

If the answer is no, then why would you complain if, in a thought experiment, someone added a 3-charges-wand-of-uber as part of levelling up?

Honest question. My DM hands out low-charge wands all the time. Our sorcerer is carrying something like 4 different wands of various spells, and the cleric has at least 3.

If we were working the scenario through a module or ap (as I suggested)and those items appeared randomly, sure.

But if, as james pointed out, you can't even craft a partially charged wnd,having a "Ye Old Used Magic Shoppe" appear and have wands exxactly priced to get around wbl is a bit absurd.

Book prices and book items means an equal playing field and cear guidelines we all can follow.


Lemmy wrote:

I believe ciretose is right about WBL including items. So a lvl 2 character woudl not have 1k, she'd have (1k - equipment).

About not fully charged wands, I'm on the fence, I think they'd be harder to come by, but that's debatable, and like I said betore, as far as internet discussions go, if it's RAW, it's fair game.

What I'm curious about is how do you plan on comparing characters? What was decided after all? What challenges will be faced? Who'll DM? How?

And I must say, without any disregard to Ashiel's or cirestose's characteers, right now I'm most curious about Bob's build, they sure look interesting.

I'm not buying the WBL argument. If you have a party consisting of a wizard, ranger, cleric, and bard, all of them begin with different amounts of money, but all of them also split treasure in equal portions. To quote the core rulebook: "The Pathfinder Roleplaying Game assumes that all PCs of equivalent level have roughly equal amounts of treasure and magic items". Statistically, taking 1/4 the amount of treasure per encounter assuming the default medium XP progression, you will amass about 1,300 gp worth of treasure from 1st to 2nd level, but you are expected to expend some GP as well in the process (purchasing spells and consumables, non combat things like inn stays and food, etc).

As for the items and such, RAW it's entirely fine to buy partially charged wands and such. They have a value and are part of the economy (the value for want is based on charges remaining and is also used if you are selling them). There is a 75% chance that such an item is available in a given town if the market value of that item is within the town's GP limit. The most expensive wand I purchased was a cure light wounds wand with 12 charges, which has a market price of 180 gp. It might take a few tries, but I'm statistically capable of finding such a wand as part of a town's typical traded goods in any community of Hamlet size and larger.

But really, Ciretose moans every time I post a word. Instead of stepping up to the plate, he just tries to whine and moan for 20+ posts about how it's unfair or munchkiny to take what the rules give you. More than likely he will continue to complain. I plan to purchase many consumables throughout the game; including elixers, feather tokens, and I will begin crafting later as well to produce my own tools. Instead of stepping up to the plate, he will whine about it. I'll bet you Alexander's last 5 gp on it.

Liberty's Edge

See why I was so firm on wanting a rules judge.

Lemmy, your call. I've made my case, I'll abide your decision.


james maissen wrote:

An interesting note to your interesting tactic...

With simply enlarge person a fighter is dealing more and not requiring an inordinate of further actions (drop hammer<free>, draw club, draw oil, apply oil, potentially unequip shield, drop shield<free>). By my count that's 3 move actions and a standard on top of the enlarge which is looking to be a move & standard or 1 round. Now some of the myriad of actions that this requires could be done by others, but it still eats up that many actions.

Now I know you were saying that your case was only when the ranger could buff unhindered before a fight.. but in all honesty that speaks against you.

My group tends to use teamwork. Sometimes that means helping each other carry some burdens. Assuming Ranger/Bard/Cleric/Wizard, the wizard will ideally cast haste, the cleric and bard apply oils to the Ranger who is already wielding the club if they plan to use this tactic, who casts lead blades and then draws the shield. In 1 round, the ranger is now providing soft cover for the entire party, benefitting from a 19+ AC, dealing 6d6+5 points of damage per hit with two attacks per round.

Quote:
In general your ranger is dealing far less damage than the fighter. This puts the burden on the remainder of the party to deal more damage. Your ranger contributes a few skills and a partially charged wand or so at this point. You might be a little better off picking up a riding dog that you've trained to defend you. They've been nerfed a bit in PF vs 3.5, but it still highlights your handle animal over the fighter. (Edit: sorry I didn't notice that you don't have that and a 7CHA to boot, mea culpa.. perhaps a bow to use that rapid shot with?).

I don't really care about the Fighter's damage. He deals his damage, I deal mine. At this level damage isn't the main thing I'm concerned about. Dealing enough damage to not be ignored is enough, and I do that fine. Later I'll be fine with damage as well.

EDIT: Also, it's primarily a sweet trick for when you want to sneak up on some folks and buff while unnoticed. Then enlarge person and run in.

Silver Crusade

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Ashiel, you are cutting corners and it's not acceptable. You go buy the WBL and you purchase what is available. Partially charged wands are not something that you can write down on your sheet because to be honest, that is something a DM would need to come up with.

Please show me in the rules where you can buy partially charged items. DM's can have these in stores but you can't decide that.

PS: Actually Ashiel, keep doing what you are doing because all it does it further hurt your case. By having to resort to under handed tactics to make the ranger viable only shows that the class is actually behind the fighter. Keep up the good work!


ciretose wrote:

See why I was so firm on wanting a rules judge.

Lemmy, your call. I've made my case, I'll abide your decision.

I agree. Both sides agreed that Lemmy would be a judge. A judge decition should be obeyed by both sides. I do think that this competence nedd a couple more of judges.

Liberty's Edge

Lemmy wrote:

I believe ciretose is right about WBL including items. So a lvl 2 character woudl not have 1k, she'd have (1k - equipment).

About not fully charged wands, I'm on the fence, I think they'd be harder to come by, but that's debatable, and like I said betore, as far as internet discussions go, if it's RAW, it's fair game.

What I'm curious about is how do you plan on comparing characters? What was decided after all? What challenges will be faced? Who'll DM? How?

And I must say, without any disregard to Ashiel's or cirestose's characteers, right now I'm most curious about Bob's build, they sure look interesting.

Bob is really good. I am also looking forward to how it will play out.

I don't know what the decision was, but I think we are learning a lot so


ciretose wrote:

WBL isn't 1000. It is 1000 including.

Cheese crafting limited charge wands to get around cost...so it begins...next will be the odd number item enhancements I am sure.

Can we go by book items at book prices, please. I defer to the rules judge.

In a written adventure, the partial value of wands is taken into account with the total wealth.


Does the game allow the trade or partially full wands? Yes. I believe it does, so by RAW you can buy such items.

An if it's RAW, it's fine for me. It doesn't even matter if I or anyone else would or would not allow it in their game tables.

We do not play with the same people. Neither do we use the same rules interpretation and set of house rules. RAW is the only common ground we have, even if it's flawed, so it must be followed.

I don't think Ashiel is going against any rules there.

But it's my understanding that WBL includes items and raw gold. I'd say we should follow it accordingly. I understand the point Ashiel about starting cash, but the book assumes that starting cash is spent on your starting equipment, then you through level one, you earn and lose/spend cash worth 1000 gp.

So IMO, a 2nd level character would have 1000gp + starting cash/equipment - whatever she spent *after* characer creation (including wands, fully charged or otherwise).

Does Ashiel's character wealth amounts to ore than 1000gp + Ranger/Paladin starting gold? If so, that must be reduced to that value. If not, it's fair.

Again, this is my understanding of the rules as written. I don't usually follow WBL perfectly, so my players sometimes are a bit too well or ill equipped.

But here, it's RAW that counts.

Finally, I agree with Nicos that an additional judge could be helpful, I've said before that while I'm glad to be thrusted as a Judge, I'm sure I'm not the most qualified.


I will be posting my builds later. I'm getting ready to head out to work. I've been busy with non-gaming stuff. I've got a vacation to get ready for, I started exercising, I have been getting involved with politics and atheism, and I have Gilder to blame for it.

I will post them later though, I promise. I personally don't take issue with partial wand charges seeing as that's how they are often handed out in an adventure. These are supposed to be PCs. I know that we are also hand picking our gear but so long as we aren't crafting partial wands, I don't have an issue with partial wands at full retail value (prorated for number of charges).

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