Why fighters suck


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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Dark Archive

A cookie for your effort.

Like they have said it is the fighter supremacy most people dispute.

I only say he is versatile and can fill many roles the other classes can because of his ton of feats.

I do agree with the need of more skill points for him, but that just means you need a 13 int (which I always do) to have the minimum 3 ranks per level, which you never actually need a bunch of skills right away, you invest on the important ones as the campaign goes on or according to your style(s) you are going to pursuit.

Lots of classes don't have much to do out of fighting like the ranger, barbarian and fighter, while there are more socials ones like the paladin than depends on his Cha for his abilities. The paladin pays by needed at least 3 good attributes to be decent (Str, Wis, Cha), while a fighter only needs 1 good one and one other only decent (usually Str or Dex depending on style and Con as the second highest).

Well I like all those martial classes.

I will not speak of the monk for that would be a whole thread by itself (and there are already many of them).

Also I think the paladin, ranger, magus, inquisitor, bard and summoner should be the ones compared since they are half caster and not completely martial like the barbarian, cavalier, fighter, gunslinger, monk, ninja, ranger and samurai. That is to be completely fair with the fighter and the other classes.


Sorry Deiros. but paladins don't need wisdom anymore. thier spellcasting uses charisma now. they still need constitution and dexterity like everyone else and can actually dump wisdom due to a combination of both thier good will save progression, and the fact they have divine grace.

paladin and ranger are primarily full bab combatants. i don't think thier daily utility belt is enough to make them a half caster like the 3/4 bab classes. more like a quarter caster. sorry, but i don't think 1 1st level divine spell a day at level 4 is really a caster. especially with no cantrip slots.

the 3/4 bab partial casters are pretty much martial too. the inquisitor, magus, bard, alchemist and summoner all pretty much play martial roles due to how thier spells work. a magus has low level touch spells they channel through thier weapon, an inquisitor, bard and alchemist generally have lots of buffs and fairly decent armor proficiencies alongside armored casting. and the summoner gets armored casting, some decent weapon choices, some buffs, and a massive martially inclined pet. these guys are hardly casters, more like martials with a few tricks up thier sleeves. much like the arcane trickster, despite being a hybrid of rogue and caster is more of a skill monkey.


Shuriken Nekogami wrote:
Sorry Deiros. but paladins don't need wisdom anymore. thier spellcasting uses charisma now. they still need constitution and dexterity like everyone else and can actually dump wisdom due to a combination of both thier good will save progression, and the fact they have divine grace.

This change always seemed odd to me. OK the 3.5 Paladin needed a buff, but eliminating is MAD problem AND upgrading his Smite Evil and Lay on Hands abilities with divine steroids AND giving him new kickass auras was maybe a little much.


Maerimydra wrote:
Shuriken Nekogami wrote:
Sorry Deiros. but paladins don't need wisdom anymore. thier spellcasting uses charisma now. they still need constitution and dexterity like everyone else and can actually dump wisdom due to a combination of both thier good will save progression, and the fact they have divine grace.
This change always seemed odd to me. OK the 3.5 Paladin needed a buff, but eliminating is MAD problem AND upgrading his Smite Evil and Lay on Hands abilities with divine steroids AND giving him new kickass auras was maybe a little much.

I do not like that change either. I mean, the classic wise warrior no more need wis.

Dark Archive

Well I totally forgot about the change lol just used at the old Paladin and rarely play them as our gaming group are more of the CN or LN, I think I can count with one hand the times I've seen someone of Good alignment in our gaming group and there has only been 2 paladins XD.

Well then let's call the Paladin and Ranger 3/4 caster that should be compared to each other as they have magical abilities and spells, compared to the other martial classes that have no spells whatsoever.


Well, they do not need Wisdom, but you can always put some points there if you want to. It'd not be optmized, but not too bad either.

I agree that 1 1st level spell a day is not much, but that allows Paladins and Ranger to use and craft wands and scrolls of those spells.

Ranger can do many things well outside of combat. His great selection of class skills (which include Stealth, Perception and Knowledge(Nature) and 6 skil ranks/level alone help a lot, and I already mentioned wands.

They can be great scouts, infiltrators and trackers (not only they have survival and (usually) more Wisdom, but add half their level to all tracking checks)

Paladins have awesome skills too, Diplomacy, Sense Motive and Knowledge(Religion) come to mind. Even if their spell selection is limited, their lay on hands and channel energy abilities are great party buffs and can remove ill conditions (even more so with variant channeling).

Fighter are less mad, indeed, but that is mostly because they have less option and fewer ways to use other attributes.

A ranger don't even need much more than a 14 Wis and he gets 6 bonus feats (to which he doesn't even have to meet the prerequisites). Fighter get 10. Not much of a difference.

Fighter can get more feats and skills points through race and favored class bonus, but that is not a class feature, but options open to all characters.


well, smite isn't really spammable. it only works on evil foes. it's single target. only one may be active at a time. and you need a bunch of extra attacks to make it truly dangerous. it's a cute toy at 1st level and pretty nasty by 6th. when the bonus has become meaningful and you have your first secondary attack. and it gets nastier with each additional attack you make. a specialty of archery.

rangers and paladins aren't even half casters. they are 1/4 casters with a few supernatural abilities. the same can be said about ninjas, gunslingers, barbarians, samurai and most monks.

the only truly nonmagical classes are the rogue, fighter, and cavalier


Maerimydra wrote:
Shuriken Nekogami wrote:
Sorry Deiros. but paladins don't need wisdom anymore. thier spellcasting uses charisma now. they still need constitution and dexterity like everyone else and can actually dump wisdom due to a combination of both thier good will save progression, and the fact they have divine grace.
This change always seemed odd to me. OK the 3.5 Paladin needed a buff, but eliminating is MAD problem AND upgrading his Smite Evil and Lay on Hands abilities with divine steroids AND giving him new kickass auras was maybe a little much.

The Paladin NEEDED those changes. MAD ruined the class and his Smite Evil was nearly useless! I don't even remember his Lay On Hands effects.

Just like rangers really needed that Animal Companion level = Ranger level - 3 instead of half ranger level, which cause the little critter to become a liability as soon as 8th, maybe 10th level.

Fighter needed buffs too. But they didn't get many. And the nerf to combat maneuver feats urt them a lot (this increased feat tax is one of the few points I believe PF managed to do worse than 3.5)


gunslingers get grit. a nonmagically flavored ability that functions similar to Ki. the samurai gets a similar resource called resolve. the ninja and monk have Ki, a limited daily ability that allows them to perform feats normally impossible for them without it. grit and resolve do this too. the barbarian gains rage rounds, and has many supernatural rage oriented abilities like resistance to spells through sheer superstition or being able to slap a ghost with thier bare hands. they can also dispel a spell by attacking it.

the reason the fighter, rogue, and cavalier are so "underpowered" is because they have no "daily powers". well, cavi has challenge. but not much else.


my fix to the Fighter being unable to contribute out of combat and the rogue having issues in combat is.

Take the rogue and the fighter, take thier class features wholesale and slap them together on one class. combine the class skills of both. with 8+int modifier skills points, d10 hit dice, full base attack bonus and all good saves. ban the original fighter and rogue. use the more beneficial proficiency chart. rename it the martial hero.

this works best if you also ban the cavalier and all the ultimate combat classes/oriental variants.


I partly agree with you, Nekogami, the fact that whatever ability these class have is most often usable at will means said ability must be weaker than most.

But that is not the only problem. Really, a ranger who ran out of spell is not too gimped, he still has an Animal Companion, Favored Enemy, Favored Terrain, increasingly good Stealth and wilderness-related stuff and nearly as many feats as the fighter.

And a Paladin without Smite Evil/Lay on Hands can still count on his full BAB, heavy armor proficiency, awesome saves, auras (except aura of justice) detect evil at-will, immunity to fear and diseases (and mind control at higher levels) and maybe his mount too.

And that is not even considering their much better class skill list (and for the ranger 4 extra skill ranks/level)

I believe it was ashiel that said that in pinch, these classes could go nova (particullary the Paladin), but a fighter is always limited to the same routine.


Nicos wrote:
Writer wrote:


Nobody disputes the fighter's supremacy and versatility within combat, (even if it is only marginal in some cases) it's the other half of the game people are in dispute about. This is, of course, in my very humble opinion.

** spoiler omitted **...

A lot of people dipute that supremacy. personally i do not htink such thing exist, i do think (in combat) the fighter is no less versatile than ranger,paladin and barbarian.

Writer wrote:


With only 2+int Skillpoints per level the fighter cannot role-play the skilled survivalist like the Ranger can (needing survival, perception, K: nature, stealth, and others) or the street-savvy thug (needing K: local, Intimidate, Bluff, Prof: Thug, Sense Motive, among others). Heck, he barely qualifies for the common front-line soldier (needing Intimidate, Prof: soldier, Climb, Swim, Ride, possibly others).

There is no reason for the lack of skill point of the fighter, i would rise to 4 skill points per level. Nevertheless, how many skill rank do you need in climb, swin and ride (asumming a non mounted char)??

How many skill rank to survive in the forest?.

4, 5? 10 at most.

1- well yea, i dispute his 'supremacy' myself. I meant to emphasize his versatility :P

2-Exactly my point; though you'd be surprised how many skillpoints you need to do stuff. Especially with a hardcore GM.


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I would like to propose a ground rule for all the judging: no judging the poster. Judge the build based on its merits. These little jabs back and forth are not making the discussion better. They are detracting from anyone listening to each other.


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Bob_Loblaw wrote:
I would like to propose a ground rule for all the judging: no judging the poster. Judge the build based on its merits. These little jabs back and forth are not making the discussion better. They are detracting from anyone listening to each other.

+1 to this. Thanks Bob. :)

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1st Level Human Ranger
==================================================
Init +8; Perception +5
Hp: 11 (1d10+1)
AC: 18-20, touch 12, flat 16-18 (+6 armor, +2 dex, +2 shield*)
Fort +3, Ref +4, Will +2
==================================================
Speed 20 ft. (30 ft.)
Melee: Club +5 (1d6+4) or Longspear +5 (1d8+6/x3, reach, brace) or Spiked Gauntlet (1d4+4, cannot be disarmed)
Ranged: Club +3 (1d6+4) or Sling +3 (1d3+3, rocks)
==================================================
Str 18, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 7
BAB +1, CMB +5, CMD 17
Traits - +2 Initiative, +1 Will save
Feats - Combat Reflexes, Improved Initiative*
Skills - Climb +6, Heal +5, Knowledge (Dungeoneering) +4, Knowledge (Nature) +4, Perception +5, Stealth +6, Survival +5 (+6 tracking), Swim +6; Check Penalty -5 to -7
Equipment - weapons, chain mail, heavy wood shield, 10 gp worth of goods

Commentary - At 1st level, I'm not really interested in offense very much right now (no Power Attack, no Deadly Aim) because at this level hitting is more important and extra damage is wasted against most enemies that are suitable for this level (there's no reason to deal +9 damage when +6 damage is more HP than the NPC had anyway). I spent 150/175 gp on my armor and shield (chain mail + heavy wooden shield), and bought my weapons on the cheap (10 gp in weapons, plus 5 clubs, plus sling).

For feats I chose Combat Reflexes and Improved Initiative. Combat Reflexes has obvious usage with the longspear and gauntlets, and allows AoOs while flat footed. Improved Initiative combined with my good Dexterity and Trait means I will regularly high priority in an encounter (this is both defensive and offensive, as going first means not being flat-footed, taking advantage of flat-footed foes, and gives tactical clout to deciding the initial pace of the fight).

For skills, I wanted a fair mix of options. I don't plan to be training animals at this level (even though training Oxen is a strong powergame option). I invested a bit in athletic skills (climbing, swimming) so that I can take 10 and not climb/drown in most cases despite my armor. Perception is fair at this level, and I took Stealth because it gives me a net +1 when wearing my Chainmail. That plus distance penalties is enough for right now (and it will be better later). Survival lets me ignore need for food and water as I can feed myself plus two people by taking 10, get a bonus to saves vs Weather, and avoid natural hazards and getting lost, and forcast tomorrow's weather, plus tracking uses. Heal is to increase party Hp regeneration and deal with poisons. The knowledge skills are optional but I decided useful enough to warrant a point (you may prefer to place them in Linguistics for more languages or Spellcraft).

========================================================================

1st Level Human Paladin
==================================================
Init +8; Perception -2
HP: 11 (1d10+1)
Fort +3, Ref +3, Will +0
AC: 18-20, touch 12, flat 16-18 (+6 armor, +2 dex, +2 shield*)
==================================================
Speed 20 ft. (30 ft.)
Melee club +4 (1d6+3) or longspear +4 (1d8+4/x3, reach, brace)
Ranged sling +3 (1d3+2, rocks)
==================================================
Str 16, Dex 14, Con 13, Int 7, Wis 7, Cha 16
BAB +1, CMB +5, CMD 16
Traits - +2 Initiative, +1 Reflex
Feats - Improved Initiative, Combat Reflexes
Skills - Diplomacy +7, Handle Animal +7, Sense Motive +2; Check Penalty -5 to -7
Equipment - weapons, chain mail, heavy wooden shield, ox trained to kick ass

Commentary: Paladins start off slow. 1st level is their worst level. Much of this is like the Ranger (cheap weapons, nice armor) because survival is important. Again power attack and the like are not present (6.5 average damage with club or 7.5 with spear is fine with me at this level, and I feel I'll get more out of the extra +hit since blows tend to come infrequently but hit hard at this level). Unlike the Ranger, the Paladin has been built as a city boy. A cloistered fellow who probably grew up in a monastery or church before being sent into the world with his modest possessions to find his own path. When not adventuring, he is similar to the disciples of christ (he has no food or provisions beyond his ox, so he relies on the graces of the common man, whom he can request simple aid from with his Diplomacy). There is many a day that a commoner has spared him a bowl of turnip soup and some well water.

Feats were chosen much the same as for ranger. Same with traits, except I chose +1 Reflex instead of Will. His Will save will catch up, and the +1 Reflex will serve to minimize his weaknesses post 2nd level or so.

Skills are simple. He's party face, good with animals (he might train animals for people who provide him aid at no charge), and his +2 sense motive means he's no one's average fool.

His Ox has been trained with the tricks Attack (2/6 tricks), Defend (3/6 tricks), Down (4/6 tricks), Heel (5/6 tricks), Stay (6/6 tricks). Ox share stats with Herd Animals. The Paladin's pet is arguably more dangerous than he is at this level. One thing that's cool about the ox is that his defend trick makes him attack if I'm attacked, which saves me a move-action command.


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Fighter's suck because my (14th level) party is on encounter 12 or 13 of the day and they are still as effective as they were on encounter 1, while both the wizard, bard, and the wizard/sorcerer are virtually completely out of resources.

Seriously. I've got like three spells left, the sorcerer has nothing over 2nd level left in his grab bag. The bard is completely out of spells and has less than five rounds of bardic music left to boot.

We've still got three or four encounters to go, minimum, before we can even hope to rest. And that's only going to help me if we can recover my damn spellbooks.

This is some kind of wizard nightmare...


Peter Stewart wrote:

Fighter's suck because my (14th level) party is on encounter 12 or 13 of the day and they are still as effective as they were on encounter 1, while both the wizard, bard, and the wizard/sorcerer are virtually completely out of resources.

Seriously. I've got like three spells left, the sorcerer has nothing over 2nd level left in his grab bag. The bard is completely out of spells and has less than five rounds of bardic music left to boot.

We've still got three or four encounters to go, minimum, before we can even hope to rest. And that's only going to help me if we can recover my damn spellbooks.

This is some kind of wizard nightmare...

Sounds interesting. Are you guys not allowed to rest (due to circumstances perhaps)? Is there something keeping the Fighter full of HP through these encounters, or is he still going strong because of all the casters and expending resources?


Fighters suck because the threads stating as much clutter the boards.

Really, in another recent thread someone asked what his new to P&P fiancee should play and the answer was mainly "let her play a Fighter".

And this is how it is. If you want to über-optimize and start at level 6 and go to level 12+ then simply play a Barbarian/Cleric/Paladin/Ranger and be better off than a Fighter mechanically speaking while likely having the same flavor.

The 15 Minute workday has nothing to do with it.


Ashiel wrote:
Peter Stewart wrote:

Fighter's suck because my (14th level) party is on encounter 12 or 13 of the day and they are still as effective as they were on encounter 1, while both the wizard, bard, and the wizard/sorcerer are virtually completely out of resources.

Seriously. I've got like three spells left, the sorcerer has nothing over 2nd level left in his grab bag. The bard is completely out of spells and has less than five rounds of bardic music left to boot.

We've still got three or four encounters to go, minimum, before we can even hope to rest. And that's only going to help me if we can recover my damn spellbooks.

This is some kind of wizard nightmare...

Sounds interesting. Are you guys not allowed to rest (due to circumstances perhaps)? Is there something keeping the Fighter full of HP through these encounters, or is he still going strong because of all the casters and expending resources?

If they can't find the wizard's spellbook, resting may not matter much anyway. Staying power is what the fighter is good at. What's going to happen to the party when the bard can't provide healing and buffing though? Sounds like the best tactic right now is to continue to pump the fighter until they can rest. Once they are out of spells though, they are going to be in a bit of a bind. Hopefully the wizard that is missing his spellbook can borrow his buddy's and prep some spells for the day.


Ashiel, I think you forgot to take into account the armor check penalty to the ranger's climb, stealth, and swim scores. The chain mail is -5 and the shield is -2.

I'm not a fan of the two dump stats for any character but we shall see how this turns out.

For the sake of completeness (and my own curiosity), what are the character's names and what is the ranger's alignment? Obviously they have no bearing on the character's themselves but I feel the characters are never complete until their mothers and fathers name them.

I'm refraining from providing much commentary because I said I would build a fighter for this and I don't think it's fair for me to comment on the effectiveness of someone else's build.

Liberty's Edge

1st Level fighter

Spoiler:

========================================================================

1st Level Human Fighter
==================================================
Init +8; Perception +5
Hp: 15 (1d10+1)
AC: 17, touch 12, flat 15 (+5 armor, +2 dex)
Fort +3, Ref +2, Will +1
==================================================
Speed 20 ft. (30 ft.)
Melee: Falcion +5 (2d4+7 (power attack) or Club (1d6+7)
Ranged: Shortbow +3 (1d6), Sling +3 (1d3+3, rocks)
==================================================
Str 18, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 7
BAB +1, CMB +5, CMD 17
Traits - +2 Initiative, +1 Will save
Feats - Toughness, Power Attack, Furious Focus.
Skills - (later)
Equipment - Weapons, Scale Mail 20 gp worth of goods

For simplicity, I'm using the same format and basically the same stats (I swapped Wis and Int since versatility is part of the discussion, and even if dumping charisma to 7 is something I personally would not do, for these purposes, sure...)

I am worried about damage. So I do a lot of it. Should one hit most 1st level encounters. I took toughness so I can go with slightly less AC, but that also means slightly less Armor Check penalty.

I'm putting my favored class into Skills, and since I'm human I get an additional one per level. With one from intelligence and the two from fighter, that is 5 per level.

I am running late for work so I will have to figure out where to put them later. With that in mind, please tell me if I miscalculated anywhere, I basically took Ashiel's stuff and modified it since I am in a hurry.


ciretose wrote:
I am running late for work so I will have to figure out where to put them later. With that in mind, please tell me if I miscalculated anywhere, I basically took Ashiel's stuff and modified it since I am in a hurry.

The Initiative +8 and Perception +5 are both off. Initiative should only be +4 (+2 Dex & +2 Trait) and Perception will be +1 if you put one of skill ranks into it, 0 otherwise.

Since your favored class bonus is going into skills, your HP should be 14, not 15 (D10 +1 for Con +3 for Toughness).

Falchion damage should be 2d4+9 (6 for strength 1.5, +3 for Power attack), while the club only has +4 to hit and does 1d6+6 while power attacking if used one-handed, or +5 to hit and 1d6+9 if you're power attacking and two-handing it.

If you're using rocks for ammunition, the sling will be have a +2 attack bonus and do 1d3+4 damage. With how cheap sling bullets are, I'd just buy some though.

Liberty's Edge

Thanks, I was literally running out the door.


Bob_Loblaw wrote:
Ashiel, I think you forgot to take into account the armor check penalty to the ranger's climb, stealth, and swim scores. The chain mail is -5 and the shield is -2.

Nah, I didn't forget. I find it's easier to mark their actual scores and note the check penalty after because they aren't going to be wearing that armor all the time. They're going to doff it when they sleep (at least until the Ranger gets Endurance), and both of their check penalties change depending on if they're wielding their shield at the moment or not.

In the commentary I included their dumpstats (I noted that the Ranger had only a +1 equivalent Stealth when stalking about in just his chainmail, but that the idea was to not get very close if possible, since he has an effective +1 for every 10 ft; while he could take 10 and not drown in water due to Swim, and could climb simply things by taking 10). It also keeps it easier for me to remember to modify 1 score (check penalty) once whenever leveling the character up, as opposed to going and modifying every score on the sheet (decreases chances I will miss one or make a mistake).

Quote:
I'm not a fan of the two dump stats for any character but we shall see how this turns out.

I've covered my beliefs on this in this post (which has two favorites, squee! ^.^). That's all for now.

Quote:
For the sake of completeness (and my own curiosity), what are the character's names and what is the ranger's alignment? Obviously they have no bearing on the character's themselves but I feel the characters are never complete until their mothers and fathers name them.

Heh, the Ranger's name is Eleoya Skinner. She's roughly 22 years old, but she's not entirely certain as to her real age, since she was kidnapped when some nomadic hobgoblins knocked her father unconscious while he was teaching her to trap animals at the age of six or so. They didn't kill him, but took her to be a slave, so she was raised to the age of fourteen as a hobgoblin. She was officially made a part of the tribe after learned to fight properly and had her first child. After she was considered an adult and a member of their clan, she was given leave to return to her people as she wished; and so she did.

Her family was shocked and amazed when their daughter emerged a young woman from the forest that she was lost in almost a decade earlier. Sporting some rather interesting tribal tattoos, she rejoined "civilized" society but hasn't fit in since. While physically beautiful (primarily due to her athletic build) her mannerisms and blutness are off putting to others. She has had little luck in relationships, since hobgoblins tend to flirt with their martial prowess, and most of the young men in her village didn't understand that she was just flirting when she out wrestled them, or that playfully smacking the piss out of them was hobgoblin for "I'm yours if you want me". Plus there's the rumors that you might be a spy. The black tribal tattoos that run across the left half of her face and down the side of her neck pretty much gives her adoptive heritage away.

So after some time, her wanderlust got the better of her. The tribe that had taken her has moved on since they are nomads, and so returning to them isn't in her cards at the moment. Noticing that most adventurers were outcast sorts of folk or nomads themselves, she joined up with a group of them that came through her town. She plans to honor her birth parents and her adoptive tribe with her actions; and left any and all money she made trapping with her real family; and took only one hundred silver pieces and the equipment gifted to her when she reached adulthood in the hobgoblin tribe.

Despite the apparent brutality of hobgoblins and her upbringing, she does have a good heart. While she appears to kind of hard and grim, she could be described as "Tsundere" in the sense she is secretly a big softy. She is officially Neutral Good with Lawful Neutral tendencies.

===

The Paladin's name is Alexander Lostchild. Like his friend Eleoya, he was lost as a child, but in his case it was more of an abandonment. His real parents were going through a particularly rough period and couldn't afford to feed him, and thus they took him to a monastery that was in the village. The monastery was exempt from taxation due to the services they provided the community and government (effectively paying taxes in spellcasting services from their adepts and clerics). He was named as an infant by the high priestess of the church, after his new godparent Alexis Delecroix who was a clerical guardian of the church (a rather martial priestess if there was one). Alexis raised him in the halls and gardens of the monastery. He didn't leave the grounds much.

He was a spirited boy who loved to talk, run, and play. He did his chores in earnest, and he often mimicked lady Alexis and shadowed her movements. The monastery priests tried to teach him the ways of the world from inside their cloister, but Alexander's mind was ever the free spirit. Too free perhaps. He never did seem to pay enough attention to his studies when it was a sunny day outside, and even less when it was a rainy day. Instead, he seemed most natural at keeping the grounds' animals, and he had a certain gift with animals. Lady Alexis saw he wasn't doing very well in school, and instead decided to try something a bit different.

When he was about ten, she began teaching him how to fight. An unusual practice since their order promoted peace and goodness, but he didn't complain. Playing with weapons seemed like the funnest thing in the world. He took to it like a fish to water. And so he learned the warrior's path from his instructor and godmother. For the rest of his youth, fighting was a game. It was something he did because it was fun, and he was good at it. He relished every parry, ever dodge, grinned at every feint, and cheered when a blade was knocked to the ground. Alexis loved the boy. Even in war, he was a beautiful free spirit; which held a contrast that made her uneasy. Perhaps she was hurting the boy leading him down this path...

It wasn't until he was about twenty that he tasted his first combat. One night he was awakened by the class of steel on steel, but it was not time for training. Then there was a loud scream he recognized as sister Maggieweather the candlemaker of the cloister. This scream was worse than the time that she tripped over the garter snake in the tomato patch. He ran to see what was the matter, leaping from his bed as he did. He opened his door to find the outer cloister in flames. The entire garden was burning, and brigands had taken the inner wall. One of the temple guards was wounded, and looked up to him. "Alex, here, take my sword...defend the cloister..." the warrior said. So Alex did as he was instructed and went into the gardens to do what he could.

As the apple trees burned like stars across the ground, his instructor Alexis was busy dispatching the brigands. They were thieves and scoundrels. Little more than petty thugs by her account. But she was bleeding at this point. A few lucky shots had taken their toll. Alexander made his way to his instructor, when he was jumped by one of the thieves. Reflexively he slapped the man with his pommel, throwing him aside. Alex was nervous in a way. The man had a look in his eye that none of the warriors nor his instructor ever held. Suddenly, the points of impact he learned from his teacher weren't points for a game...they were...for something else.

The man leapt at Alex once more, dagger in hand. Alex dodged and came forward with his sword. This time he didn't stop before the impact. The blade cut deep, tearing a large mortal gash in the man's throat, sending him to the ground gagging. Alex nearly lost his lunch from the impact that the man's death had in his stomach. He looked at the man, and cried. But his mourning for the man was interrupted by the clash of steel and the cry of his teacher and godmother. Being on much her last leg, Alexis was pushed into a corner by the bandit leader. She needed to heal her wounds, but with the bandit pressing every opportunity for attack, she could not but stand and parry each hit. Almost instinctively, Alex joined his teacher in the fray.

Alexis was surprised as Alex came through the flames of the garden, shouting to the brigand "Leave her alone!". Alex was fighting for more than his own fun and games now, but his heart and spirit were in it in a way that he had never experienced before. Alex leaped at the bandit, his sword striking the man's shield and errupting into a white flame as he did. Alex relentlessly attacked the man with a fervor that forced the man to ignore Alexis or be cleaved in half. Surprised by her student wielding the light of the gods -- for even she held not that gift -- she healed her wounds and joined the battle once more. Though less experienced than the Brigand -- not in combat but the art of killing -- he was no match for him, but his blade swung with such swift and graceful inspiration that the brigand was forced to turtle behind his spiked mace and shield. As Alexis rejoined the battle, the Brigand found it impossible to defend against both at once; struck down by Alexis.

Alexander looked at the man. The aetheric fire on his sword dissipating with the man's life. Alexis approached him and put her hand on his shoulder. They had repelled the invasion, but at great cost. Alexander dropped the sword to the ground. Unable to say a word he embraced his teacher, weeping into her armor. It seemed that Alexis knew this day would come sometime. Just not so soon. Now Alex had seen the evils that lay beyond the holy walls. Now his sword had tasted blood. He wouldn't ever truly be the same boy that ran through he gardens and stared at the clouds so freely.

Some time later, the high priestess declared that Alexander had the gift of the deva spirit. A love of war tempered by the fires of purity. He would go into the world and do as he would, and let his virtues guide him. "Take only what you need, and seek the world." he was told. Seek the world. "Love others as we love you, and they shall love you the same." she added. So he set out on a pilgrimage to find something he didn't fully understand. In a way, he was told he would be doing the work of the church, but that he was not on official business. He took just enough food to last the first few days. The weapons he trained with, and was gifted his favorite ox Samson.

Not long after he left the cloister, he met a young woman in a village. He laughed when she punched him and threw a punch back for fun. Seemed that it made her smile, and she asked him to travel with her. So she told him a story about a young girl raised by hobgoblins, and he told her a story about a young boy raised by as a sword.

Quote:
I'm refraining from providing much commentary because I said I would build a fighter for this and I don't think it's fair for me to comment on the effectiveness of someone else's build.

Feel free. I'd love to hear your thoughts.

EDIT: Actually, I should change Knowledge (Dungeoneering) to Linguistics (Goblinoid) on Eleoya. I forgot humans only begin with Common and not a bonus language of their choice.

Liberty's Edge

I will try and post the corrected build at lunch, as well as round 2.

What is the comparison point.

Liberty's Edge

Take two (Sorry for the rushed take one)

Spoiler:

=================================================
1st Level Human Fighter
==================================================
Init +4; Perception +1
Hp: 14 (1d10+1 + 3 Toughness)
AC: 17, touch 12, flat 15 (+5 armor, +2 dex)
Fort +3, Ref +2, Will +1
==================================================
Speed 20 ft. (30 ft.)
Melee: Falcion +5 (2d4+9 (power attack) or Club +5 (1d6+9) (both if two-handed)
Ranged: Shortbow +3 (1d6), Sling +3 (1d3+4, 50 bullets)
==================================================
Str 18, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 7
BAB +1, CMB +5, CMD 17
Traits - +2 Initiative, +1 Will save
Feats - Toughness, Power Attack, Furious Focus.
Skills Ranks – Climb (+8, +4 in armor), Intimidate (+2), Perception (+1), Stealth (+3), Survival (+4)
Equipment - Weapons, Scale Mail 19 gp worth of goods

Made the corrections pointed out. Thank you. As I was leaving for work I was pleasantly surprised Ashiel had stepped up, so I wanted to make sure I put something out there since she made the effort. Credit where credit is due.

I thought about taking the perception class skill trait, but that seemed cheesy to be a follower of Abadar for a trail. I’ll dig through the traits more later, as I’ve got plenty of feats to play with as we go along and that is a way to shore up any skill weaknesses pretty easily.

At first level I can pretty much one hit kill anything we are going to face, and I will always be power attacking, since there is no penalty. 5 Skill points isn’t bad, and my armor check penalty is actually better than the ranger at this point, so that is functionally a +1 in all of the Dex and Strength skills.

I am on the fence as to taking quick draw next to make sure I can switch on the fly quickly between ranged and melee, or Deadly Aim at 2nd level. I’m open to input.

At this point I am basically doing double the rangers damage, with an AC 1 point lower. I have less skill points, but I also have a lower armor check penalty. I have one lower AC, but three more hit points.

Since Bob wants a name, I will call him Rufus and will be Neutral Good.


Ashiel wrote:
Sounds interesting. Are you guys not allowed to rest (due to circumstances perhaps)? Is there something keeping the Fighter full of HP through these encounters, or is he still going strong because of all the casters and expending resources?

We're basically out of time. It's evening, and the next evening the BBEG of the adventure is going to set off his super weapon and destroy the city. Unfortunately the BBEG is also the ruler of the city, and has numerous other powerful factions in his pocket. We've spent the day trying to accumulate allies and associates in the city so when we take him down it doesn't plunge into chaos.

Unfortunately in the course of astral projecting to kill off a (CR 18) enemy we got coldcocked by the head of the local mage's guild who we'd thought was on our side. Turned out she was in league with the BBEG and we were stripped of our gear, knocked unconscious, and left locked up in an antimagic cell. That CR 18 fight was our 6th or 7th of the day to begin with.

We subsequently escaped the cell, but our gear has been divided up among many of the top wizards in the tower, so recovering it has been slow and painful going. We're presently trying to locate our gear, take out the wizard guild's leader and her allies, and restore control of the tower to one of our other allies since it will give us a significant advantage when everything is said and done (and since we still haven't recovered my spellbook).

Thus far most of our recovery has been wands and potions, mostly of a the healing nature, by raiding the healer's hall. That's why the fighter's are still kicking. Unfortunately between a few really difficult fights (the CR 18, a CR 15-16 with no gear, a large ambush with the potential for lots of civilian casualties) and the sheer number of fights our casters have virtually nothing left. We're basically living off captured wands of magic missile at this point, which is pretty sad.


Bob_Loblaw wrote:
If they can't find the wizard's spellbook, resting may not matter much anyway. Staying power is what the fighter is good at. What's going to happen to the party when the bard can't provide healing and buffing though? Sounds like the best tactic right now is to continue to pump the fighter until they can rest. Once they are out of spells though, they are going to be in a bit of a bind. Hopefully the wizard that is missing his spellbook can borrow his buddy's and prep some spells for the day.

We've been living off cure light wounds wands we recovered, along with a few potions. It's tight going. Ultimately though resting really isn't an option without recovering the spellbook and taking back the tower for our gear, since tomorrow is the big day where everything throws down. If we don't retake the tower then the leadership can use it's resources (like it's scrying chamber) to systematically take apart what we've done so far as far as putting together allies in the city for the BBEG.

There's only one wizard in the party (me), so borrowing a spellbook isn't really an optional.

My favorite part here though is the DM has all but promised to throw a Demilich into the party at some point in the tower as part of an ongoing disagreement between us with regard to the balance of said creature, and we still haven't recovered a single cloak of resistance.


ciretose wrote:
I am on the fence as to taking quick draw next to make sure I can switch on the fly quickly between ranged and melee, or Deadly Aim at 2nd level. I’m open to input.

I'd recommend some other ranged feats before Deadly Aim. At lower levels, it's my belief that you don't need the extra damage so much as the extra hit potential (enemies can easily sport more AC than HP at low levels), whereas later on the Fighter will have more BAB and hit bonuses, and that's where Deadly Aim while shine the most I think. In the meantime, I'd recommend something like Iron Will (shoring up defenses) or perhaps Improved Initiative (I felt it was worth it for my folks). Since martials can draw a weapon as part of a move action, you really only need quick draw at higher levels (to draw and full attack in the same round).

You might consider taking up a shield as well. My ranger and Paladin both have a shield for those times when AC is more important than damage (if you're surrounded by mooks with 3-5 HP, then you can probably drop 1/round easily enough with your 1-hander, while minimizing incoming pain with your +10% evasion). Right now the Ranger and Paladin are both capable of tanking more effectively than your Fighter; but a heavy shield would really close that gap.

Quote:
At this point I am basically doing double the rangers damage, with an AC 1 point lower. I have less skill points, but I also have a lower armor check penalty. I have one lower AC, but three more hit points.

One thing that's nice about these activities is we get a glimpse into priorities. You've built your fighter to survive roughly 1 hit but be hit more frequently, and prioritized overkill damage. This leads me to believe that you expect to fight single powerful foes who more AC has less effect on, and who have tons of HP; while my PCs are built to be more defensive and only enough damage to kill most opponents they will probably fight; which implies I'm thinking heavily about fighting groups of weaker enemies. I also seem to prioritize battlefield presence and initiative at this moment as well.

Neither, I feel are wrong. It's just interesting to see what is valued more between players.


ciretose wrote:

Take two (Sorry for the rushed take one)

** spoiler omitted **
Made the corrections pointed out. Thank you. As I was leaving for work I was pleasantly surprised Ashiel had stepped up, so I wanted to make sure I put something out there since she made the effort. Credit where credit is due.

I thought about taking the perception class skill trait, but that seemed cheesy to be a follower of Abadar for a trail. I’ll dig through the traits more later, as I’ve got plenty of feats to play with as we go along and that is a way to shore up any skill weaknesses pretty easily.

At first level I can pretty much one hit kill anything we are going to face, and I will always be power attacking, since there is no penalty. 5 Skill points isn’t bad, and my armor check penalty is actually better than the ranger at this point, so that is functionally a +1 in all of the Dex and Strength skills.

I am on the fence as to taking quick draw next to make sure I can switch on the fly quickly between ranged and melee, or Deadly Aim at 2nd level. I’m open to input.

At this point I am basically doing double the rangers damage, with an AC 1 point lower. I have less skill points, but I also have a...

Also does piercing slashing and bludegoning damage as options. Which will come in handy agianst zombies. I think skeletons and zombies are quite common to encounter at low levels from my expirence and what published adventures I have seen.


ciretose, since the build isn't complete yet there isn't much I can say about it other than what has already been said.

For my own sanity, can I get a name (I know, my mother should have given me one at birth)? I also like alignments.

[EDIT: ciretose posted while I was writing this so ignore my requests. I am happy once again.]

Just so everyone knows, I'm entering these into Hero Lab for a few reasons:

1) I like having NPCs so I'm stealing these.
2) It helps to reduce the errors.
3) It makes it easy for me to switch back and forth from character to character for comparison.

================

Ashiel, thanks for the extended backgrounds too. Certainly not necessary and won't get you any extra points but it does help complete the characters and my sanity is better for it.

I know your position on dump stats and I don't want to get into it here. I have my opinion on it and you have yours. The system allows for it and I am not going to use it as practical criticism against the characters. It was opinion only.

===============

I'm working on my fighter and due to race and the fact that I used the elite array, I ended up with two 8's. It was not my intention at first but I decided to not go with human because that's what everyone else is doing. I want a lower Constitution to show that it's ok for a fighter to not have an outstanding Constitution and still be viable.

Here is the preliminary build (edited with suggestion from Nicos):

Spoiler:

SPRUCE ZYPHERLEAF CR 1/2
Male Elf Fighter (Mobile Fighter) 1
CG Medium Humanoid (Elf)
Init +5; Senses Low-Light Vision; Perception +7
--------------------
DEFENSE
--------------------
AC 19, touch 14, flat-footed 15. . (+4 armor, +1 shield, +3 Dex, +1 dodge)
hp 9 (1d10-1)
Fort +1, Ref +3, Will +1
Immune sleep; Resist Elven Immunities
--------------------
OFFENSE
--------------------
Spd 20 ft.
Melee Club +3 (1d6+2/20/x2) and
. . Dagger +3 (1d4+2/19-20/x2) and
. . Longsword +2 (1d8+3/19-20/x2) and
. . Shortsword +3 (1d6+2/19-20/x2)
Ranged Shortbow +4 (1d6/20/x3) and
. . Sling +4 (1d4+2/20/x2)
--------------------
STATISTICS
--------------------
Str 14, Dex 17, Con 8, Int 15, Wis 12, Cha 8
Base Atk +1; CMB +3; CMD 17
Feats Cosmopolitan: Perception, Knowledge (Nature), Dodge, Elven Weapon Proficiencies
Traits Bandit (River Kingdoms): Stealth, Reactionary
Skills Acrobatics +0, Climb +3, Escape Artist +0, Fly +0, Handle Animal +3, Knowledge (Nature) +6, Perception +7, Ride +0, Stealth +1, Survival +5, Swim -1 Modifiers Silent Hunter
Languages Common, Draconic, Elven, Giant, Orc, Sylvan
Combat Gear Armored Coat, Arrows (20), Buckler, Bullets, Sling (20), Club, Dagger, Longsword, Shortbow, Shortsword, Sling;
--------------------
TRACKED RESOURCES
--------------------
Arrows - 0/20
Bullets, Sling - 0/20
Club - 0/1
Dagger - 0/1
--------------------
SPECIAL ABILITIES
--------------------
Bandit (River Kingdoms): Stealth +1 to Stealth checks, Stealth is always a class skill for you.
Elven Immunities +2 save bonus vs Enchantments.
Elven Immunities - Sleep You are immune to Sleep effects.
Low-Light Vision See twice as far as a human in low light, distinguishing color and detail.
Silent Hunter Reduce Steath penalty for moving by -5, can make Stealth checks while running (at -20 - includes reduced penalty).

MYNOK CR 1
Male Dog
NN Small Animal
Init +1; Senses Low-Light Vision, Scent; Perception +8
--------------------
DEFENSE
--------------------
AC 13, touch 12, flat-footed 12. . (+1 Dex, +1 size, +1 natural)
hp 6 (1d8+2)
Fort +4, Ref +3, Will +1
--------------------
OFFENSE
--------------------
Spd 40 ft.
Melee Bite (Dog) +2 (1d4+1/20/x2)
--------------------
STATISTICS
--------------------
Str 13, Dex 13, Con 15, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6
Base Atk +0; CMB +0; CMD 11 (15 vs. Trip)
Feats Skill Focus: Perception
Tricks Attack [Trick], Attack [Trick], Attack Any Target [Trick], Defend [Trick], Down [Trick], Guard [Trick], Guarding [Trick], Track [Trick]
Skills Fly +3, Perception +8, Stealth +5 Modifiers +4 to Survival when tracking by Scent, Acrobatics (Jump) +8
Languages
SQ Attack Any Target [Trick], Guarding [Trick], Track [Trick]

--------------------
TRACKED RESOURCES
--------------------
. . -none-
--------------------
SPECIAL ABILITIES
--------------------
+4 to Survival when tracking by Scent +4 to Survival when tracking by Scent.
Acrobatics (Jump) +8 (Ex) You gain the specified bonus to acrobatics checks made to jump.
Attack Any Target [Trick] The animal will attack any creature on command.
Guarding [Trick] The animal has been trained for guard duty.
Low-Light Vision See twice as far as a human in low light, distinguishing color and detail.
Scent (Ex) Detect opponents within 15+ feet by sense of smell.
Track [Trick] The animal will track a scent.


ciretose, you can speak one more language. What do you want it to be?


Bob@

Since you are making a fighter and probabily wont need to overcome SR maybe you want to consider this

Silent Hunter: Elves are renowned for their subtlety and skill. Elves with this racial trait reduce the penalty for using Stealth while moving by 5 and can make Stealth checks while running at a –20 penalty (this number includes the penalty reduction from this racial trait). This racial trait replaces the elven magic racial trait.

Dark Archive

This is a 20pt buy right, just making sure my math was correct ^^ and they are all very nice builds.


This is Turret (He uses all the Paizo books. I just want to have fun with a halfling slinger):

Spoiler:

TURRET CR 1/2
Male Halfling Fighter (Armor Master) 1
NN Small Humanoid (Halfling)
Init +3; Senses Perception +3
--------------------
DEFENSE
--------------------
AC 20, touch 13, flat-footed 18. . (+6 armor, +1 shield, +2 Dex, +1 size)
hp 10 (1d10)
Fort +3, Ref +4, Will +2
--------------------
OFFENSE
--------------------
Spd 15 ft.
Melee Dagger +4 (1d3+2/19-20/x2) and
. . Greataxe +4 (1d10+3/20/x3)
Ranged Staff Sling, Half. +5 (1d6+3/20/x3)
--------------------
STATISTICS
--------------------
Str 14, Dex 17, Con 10, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 9
Base Atk +1; CMB +2; CMD 14
Feats Halfling Slinger, Whip-Slinger
Traits Armor Expert, Indomitable Faith
Skills Acrobatics +0, Climb -2, Diplomacy +0, Escape Artist -1, Fly +1, Intimidate +3, Perception +3, Ride -1, Swim -2
Languages Common, Dwarven, Halfling
SQ Fearless, Warslinger
Combat Gear Buckler, Bullets, Sling (20), Dagger, Greataxe, Kilted Scale Mail, Staff Sling, Half.;
--------------------
TRACKED RESOURCES
--------------------
Bullets, Sling - 0/20
Dagger - 0/1
--------------------
SPECIAL ABILITIES
--------------------
Armor Expert -1 Armor check penalty.
Fearless +2 morale bonus vs Fear saves.
Warslinger Reloading a sling is a free action (which still requires 2 hands and provokes AoO).
Whip-Slinger Use sling as a sap and threaten adjacent spaces.


Nicos wrote:

Bob@

Since you are making a fighter and probabily wont need to overcome SR maybe you want to consider this

Silent Hunter: Elves are renowned for their subtlety and skill. Elves with this racial trait reduce the penalty for using Stealth while moving by 5 and can make Stealth checks while running at a –20 penalty (this number includes the penalty reduction from this racial trait). This racial trait replaces the elven magic racial trait.

Thanks! I didn't even think about that. Consider it added.


Deiros wrote:
This is a 20pt buy right, just making sure my math was correct ^^ and they are all very nice builds.

15 point buy. Don't forget to take into account the racial modifiers.


Peter Stewart wrote:
Ashiel wrote:
Sounds interesting. Are you guys not allowed to rest (due to circumstances perhaps)? Is there something keeping the Fighter full of HP through these encounters, or is he still going strong because of all the casters and expending resources?

We're basically out of time. It's evening, and the next evening the BBEG of the adventure is going to set off his super weapon and destroy the city. Unfortunately the BBEG is also the ruler of the city, and has numerous other powerful factions in his pocket. We've spent the day trying to accumulate allies and associates in the city so when we take him down it doesn't plunge into chaos.

Unfortunately in the course of astral projecting to kill off a (CR 18) enemy we got coldcocked by the head of the local mage's guild who we'd thought was on our side. Turned out she was in league with the BBEG and we were stripped of our gear, knocked unconscious, and left locked up in an antimagic cell. That CR 18 fight was our 6th or 7th of the day to begin with.

We subsequently escaped the cell, but our gear has been divided up among many of the top wizards in the tower, so recovering it has been slow and painful going. We're presently trying to locate our gear, take out the wizard guild's leader and her allies, and restore control of the tower to one of our other allies since it will give us a significant advantage when everything is said and done (and since we still haven't recovered my spellbook).

Thus far most of our recovery has been wands and potions, mostly of a the healing nature, by raiding the healer's hall. That's why the fighter's are still kicking. Unfortunately between a few really difficult fights (the CR 18, a CR 15-16 with no gear, a large ambush with the potential for lots of civilian casualties) and the sheer number of fights our casters have virtually nothing left. We're basically living off captured wands of magic missile at this point, which is pretty sad.

I was curious. Living off wands is kind of a bad way to be, but it explains how your HP has managed to stay going. I must say, however, that for me it's hard to believe CR 15-16 without gear is even possible, unless something really bizarre is going on. I just know that without their spells and such that encounters 1/2 that CR can kill a more or less naked party. I can't help but wonder what these encounters consisted of and their tactics, because it seems like you guys should be clearly dead. CR 18 encounters are things of nightmares. >.>

That being said, not being able to rest sucks for everyone. The reason I asked is because not being able to rest leads to fatigue and exhaustion; which is the martial equivalent of not being able to prepare spells; since happy-sticks don't restore fatigue.

But since you are a wizard, I'll give you a cool trick that you can use later. Since you can keep your cantrips prepared forever, and thus do not need to re-prepare stuff like prestidigitation and mage hand, you may consider in the future hiding spells on your person, or even eating them. Shrink object lasts for a very long time, and can be used to store pages from your spellbook in tubes. You can then smuggle them around. Worst case scenario, you shove a tiny scroll case up your bung-hole, or swallow them. Later you poop them out, prestidigitation them clean, and then prepare your spells.

That being said, assuming you somehow made it as far as you guys have with guile and luck, a demilich will end all of you unless your GM is rigging the fights for you to win. From the sound of it, you couldn't handle a regular lich who wanted you dead, let alone a demilich. Something just smells awfully fishy from this end.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Deiros wrote:

Just my 2 copper pieces.

While the paladin is a good tank(which for my gaming group his role) because of his saves and good AC, now the Paladin has only offensive power against Evil creature which is usually around 50% of things we meet in my campaign.

The fighter is a versatile gap filler (which is the role in my gaming group) he can be a great archer, physical damage tank, damage dealing machine, control the battle flow, mounted combat.

This is were most people say but X does better, and probably so, but the fighter is versatile so while the paladin is only a great tank with a magic weapon or a great mount and the ranged a great two weapon fighter or archer+pet, the fighter can is still more versatile because of the amount of feats he has, so while the ranger will get feats for free + per level feats the fighter will be done with an archer build before the ranger is and by that time the fighter is already becoming a master on another field of combat the ranger, paladin or barbarian cannot do.

If you want a damage dealing brutal monster probably a barbarian will do, low AC and lots of damage to compensate.

If you want a tanky guy that is somewhat limited in his offense against evil critters then go for paladin. Good AC and has to pump str and cha at least to do this or Con and Cha

If you want a wilderness guy that specialized in range or dual damage with a pet then the ranger, just remember low AC.

You want a guy that does all that well, even if he is not a "specialist" because of class abilities in that. Then you pick the fighter because he has survival and can deal fairly well in a dungeon and wilderness but he is no ranger, he has good AC like the paladin always and can move decently with it and can deal damage very well. Then this is why you take a fighter because he can fill at least 2 combat rolls by level 2 while the other ones are limited to a single specialized role.

This is of course my opinion of those 4 martial classes, versatility is the fighter thing and that he can change...

If you do a level by level comparison of the classes you will realize this is not true, and gets less true as the two classes level up.

If we assume a paladin and a fighter with identical stats, paladin 14 Cha and Fighter 14 wis, other stats basically identical/swapping, here's what the fighter is up against.
At level 6 they both get Mental boosters +2, at 10th +4, and 14th +6. They put all stat raises into strength.

At level 1: The paladin has two good saves, meaning his Will save is as good as the fighter's. He has a 'better' skill list. . He can Detect Evil (who needs a Perception check?) unlimited amounts, and can smite for +2 th/+1 dmg against a big bad guy 1/day. And hey, you know Smites ignore ALL KINDS of Damage Reduction, right?
The fighter gets one feat. If the Paladin is human and takes Power attack and weapon focus, the fighter doesn't really have anything on him.

At level 2: The Paladin gets Divine Grace (+2 to all saves.And he can can lay on hands for 3-18 hp/day.
The fighter gets a feat, and the fighter gets +1 to his sucky will save against Fear.

At level 3, the Paladin is now IMMUNE to fear and lets others close by save at +4 against it. He is also immune to disease, including magical diseases. And he can select an additional effect his lay on hands can cure, like being fatigued (insta-pop the barb).
The fighter gets Armor Training +1. However, he needs to have the Dexterity to take advantage of it. He can move at normal speed in Medium armor...which would be nice if you couldn't do the same thing with a Mithral medium armor.

At level 4, the paladin is now healing 8d6 dmg/day, + mercy. He just got 1 level 1 spell. He can now nova a smite for 2/day, +2/+4. And he can area effect heal/channel 2/day for 2d6 each time.

The fighter gets a bonus feat and qualifies for Weapon Spec.

At level 5, the Paladin gets Divine Bond, which can be a mount or a weapon. If a weapon, he gets +1 Enhancement for 5 minutes 1/day, on top of whatever his weapon actually is, and can be used on ANY weapon. Choices are flaming/keen/merciful/+1. Spells are 2/0.

The Fighter finally gets weapon training +1 in a weapon group.

At level 6: The paladin can remove a second condition with his mercies, like, say, dazed or staggered. His Cha is now 16. He can heal for 6 x 3d6 a day, or 18d6, or Channel for 3 x 3d6. Smite is +3/+6. His bonus to all saves is +3.
The Fighter gets a bonus feat. Which he must have pre-reqs for. With a +2 Wis booster, he's up to +5 on his Will saves. And his Bravery is at +2. Wow, +7 against Fear. (Paladin's at +9 on ALL will saves).

At level 7. Paladin gets 2nd level spells, so now 2/1. Paladin now Smites Evil 3/day for +3/+7, meaning every evil boss in a fight/day, for the most part.
The Fighter can now move normally in heavy armor, and has +2 Armor Training. Let's hope he has the 16 Dex to actually make use of it with full plate...it's highly unlikely he has the 24 Dex to do so with a Mithral BP, or the 20 Dex for mithral full plate...

At level 8; Paladin Divine Bond is now +2. Whatever boss fight of the 4/day he's in that's neutral, he now has a weapon +2 better then the fighter. Choices now include flaming burst/axiomatic/holy/disruptive.
Aura of Resolve means immune to charms, +4 to allies. Hey, as if the +9 Will save wasn't enough?
Spells are 2/2. Healing is 7 x 4d6/day, or 28d6 of healing, 14d6 if burst.
The Fighter gets a bonus feat.

At level 9: the paladin gets a third mercy from an expanded list. He can remove curses, get rid of exhaustion (and thus doesn't need to sleep), or unpoison himself...all as a swift action on himself, and as a bonus to his healing.
Spells are 3/2.
He can now use weapon bond 2 t/day, at +2.

The fighter gets Weapon Training +2 in his first choice, and +1 in a new choice.

At level 10: The Paladin can Smite Evil 4 t/day, basically every normal encounter facing something tough. +4/+10, doubled potentially on that first round, +3 deflection bonus...
Cha booster at +4 = 18 Cha, +4 all saves, smite bonuses, more spells, etc.
Gets 3rd levels spells, 3/2/1.
Healing is now 8/day x 5d6 (40d6), or 4 t/day burst 5d6.

The fighter gets a bonus feat. Wis booster +4, his will save is now...+7, +10 against fear (Bravery +3). The paladin is at +11.

At level 11: Weapon Bond is +3. The paladin can either boost his blade by +3, add multiple enhancements, or add Speed to his weapon for full attack goodness. This costs no cash, btw. 2/day, 11 minutes/time. Yes, works fine on Neutrals.
Spells 3/2/2.
Aura of Resolve means the paladin can blow two Smites to give everyone else around him +4 th/+11 dmg against an evil foe.

The fighter is up to +3 on his armor training. Does he have the 22 dex to use it with mithral full plate? The paladin is likely to have the 16 dex to do it with his.

At level 12; Paladin spells 3/3/2.
Another Mercy to his list. Hey, he can help someone blinded/deafened/paralyzed/stunned. Including himself. Pick one.
Healing is now 9 x 6d6, or 54d6 of healing.

The fighter...gets a bonus feat. Hey, greater weapon spec, look at that. Only blew four feats to get there. Notice how greater rage and weapon bond auto-scale?

At level 13: 4th level spells, 4/3/2/1.
5 Smites/day, +4/+13(26).
Weapon bond is now 3/day for those pesky Neutral Fights, lasts 13 minutes.

Fighter has +3 Weapon, +2 and +1 now.

At level 14: Cha booster +6, 20 Cha. +5 all saves, etc.
Spells are 5/3/3/2.
Healing is 12/day x 7 d6, or 84d6 healing, or 6/day burst.
Weapon Bond is now +4. The paladin can now make any weapon BRILLIANT 3 t/day. Like, say, if facing a pesky fighter. Let's just do away with those armor/shield bonuses at will, shall we? Lasts for 14 minutes at a time, too.

But, hey, the fighter gets a bonus feat. ANd Bravery +4. Woot. WIth a Wis booster +6 and 20 Wis, he's now got +9 Will save, +13 vs. Fear, vs the Paladin's +14 all Will saves (what few he has to make).

15th: Final Armor Training for Fighter, +4. Just needs a 24 Dex to make use of it with Mithral full plate. Can I get a +5 Tome of Dex here for the fighter? On the flip side, maybe he has a couple crit feats by now.

Meanwhile, the Paladin has 5/3/3/2 spells, and adds yet another Mercy to all his healing.

16th: Fighter gets a bonus feat. Hey, sounds familiar.

Paladin gets another Smite, which is now +5/+16 (32), 6 times a day. Evil monsters beware...it's like he's never going to run out!
Healing? Oh, a paltry 13 x 8d6, or 104d6 of healing. 72d6 burst.

17th: Fighter tops out his weapon training at 4/3/2/1.

Paladin's Weapon Bond is now 4/day (you know, once/fight) at +5. That's right, his weapon is +5 better then the Fighters, 4/day. Or he could do his bow, his lance, his back-up weapon, etc. Weapon training? Who needs weapon training?
Spells are 6/4/3/2.
Hey, he also gets DR 5/Evil, Immune to compulsions, +4 to ally's compulsion saves. As if he needed it with a base +15 Will save, but he's LG, remember?

18th: Fighter gets a bonus feat. And bravery tops at +5. Wee. +10 Will (+15 fear) vs Paladin +16 all Will/Con.

Paladin casting 6/4/3/3. Smiting +5/+18(36).
Adds yet another Mercy. 14 x 9d6, or 126d6 of healing, 63d6 burst.

19th: Fighter gets Armor Mastery. Awesome. Except it doesn't stack with Adamantine Armor. Best hope for the 24 Dex to make full use of Mithral, i.e. this is almost useless a capstone. It finally gives the fighter what the barbarian has been getting incrementally!

But the Paladin has 6/4/4/3 casting, and another Smite, for 7 t/day +5/+19(38) against Bad Guys.

20th: The fighter finally can't be disarmed of ONE weapon, and gets a crit mod added to it, and auto confirms crits (less powerful that last, because he's got high bonuses with his best weapon, anyways.)
Oh, and he gets a feat.

The paladin is now 6/4/4/4 casting.
His Weapon Bond is +6, 4/day, 20 minutes at a time. That's right, for 4 fights a day, he's got a +16 Weapon, +6 better then the fighter.
When she Smites an Evil Outsider, it has to save or be banished.
Heals for max. Yes, thats 15 x 60 points, or 900 points of healing, 450 in burst.
DR is 10/Evil. That means unless the enemy has a +5 weapon or is an Evil Outsider, it applies.
He has save mods of +17/+12/+17, before any mods but Cha, vs 12/6/11(16)

I think, by any estimation of the books, the Paladin is getting more per level. Weapon bond will make up for ANY DPR problems vs neutrals, unless ALL you are fighting is neutrals...and there's spells on top of that.

Fighter's get bonuses vs combat manuvers with FC. Human paladins can buy energy resistance. Fire and cold res/1 basically make you immune to all natural weather extremes.

Paizo and 3.5 seem to think 1 level of spells cast =1 feat. I'm not seeing it. Max dmg and 'good weapons' with bless weapon vs evil foes without using a smite is great.
Brilliant weapon on demand to take out armor/shield users is incredibly powerful.
Smite Evil blows away ANYTHING the fighter can do on those important fights. Being able to GIVE IT AWAY is even stronger. Yeah, Fighter, you go flank and give me +2. I'll give you +4/+12, +24 on the opening round.

==Aelryinth


Bob_Loblaw wrote:

================

Ashiel, thanks for the extended backgrounds too. Certainly not necessary and won't get you any extra points but it does help complete the characters and my sanity is better for it.

I know your position on dump stats and I don't want to get into it here. I have my opinion on it and you have yours. The system allows for it and I am not going to use it as practical criticism against the characters. It was opinion only.

===============

You're welcome. I didn't figure it was necessary, but I figured you might appreciate it since you wanted more details. I would turn down any extra points for it anyway, because we're discussing class balance and such, not fluff.

I'm fine with not getting into low high vs low stats as well. It suffices to our audience to say that I think good characters have some things they don't begin good at, and leave it at that.

Liberty's Edge

@Ashiel
I have a 17 AC vs your 18 AC.

We have the same Attack bonus and I have more hit points than you do.

Based on the Bestiary a CR 1 Monster has 15 hit points.

They have a +2 to attack (so they will generally miss both of us) and they do an average of 7 damage (so I can take two hits)

I will drop them in one or two hits, given my average damage.

You will need two or three hits, based on your average damage.

This is exactly why I want this compared to actual module and adventure path encounters.

Dark Archive

Again Aelryinth you compare the fighter to the Paladin as if he was specialized in the paladin job when he isn't going to do.

It's like comparing a Paladin to a Cleric, why take the Paladin, clearly the cleric is superior in EVERY way yo the Paladin, it heals more, has domain abilities, spell to do everything other classes do, and if human can also begin with two feats.

That was not a very fair comparison right ^^

The fighter has versatility no power creep supremacy over other classes in their respective field. That is the problem with most people fail to notice.

Fighter doesn't need Wis 14 he just needs a feat to raise his will saves by +2 that he has a better chance to burn than a Paladin ever will.

The paladin has some spells and nifty magic abilities, the fighter gets around his weakness with magic items mostly.

Yet again skills of the paladin are nice, but drop him in the wilderness, make him swim, climb and jump lol let's see how he survives that one, he has super skills right, oh wait he sucks at that why!? Because it is not his role, he has diplomacy, knowledge religion and nobility, he has nice chances at doing something social out of combat and specializes against evil creatures, emergency healing and be a brick wall.

While all that is nice and does it better than the fighter, the fighter can still survive in the wilderness (paladin will not) They can both be brick walls (same armor proficiency and weapons), but the fighter can branch out and also deal damage at a distance (while the paladin specializes at 1 thing).

As I have said before the fighter is there to fill MULTIPLE roles. Just like the Paladin is a crappy cleric, the Fighter is a crappy Paladin but he is better than the crappy paladin in the wilderness, dealing damage consistently and can be above the paladin, he can be as good or even better mounted combatant than the paladin.

Like I said don't measure a class to another that is a specialist in their field, that is plain unfair for the other class.

Otherwise just measure the Paladin to be fair also against the rogue for who is better at out of combat skill monkey, at healing than the cleric or more spells than the cleric.

Give us a level 1 paladin 15 point buy and we will see how they fare, just like the rest ^^

Liberty's Edge

Bob_Loblaw wrote:
ciretose, you can speak one more language. What do you want it to be?

Elf is usually a useful pick.


Ashiel wrote:
And you are so right. You can't wipe your ass in Pathfinder without at least having the Wipe Your Ass feat, but not before grabbing the Pick Your Nose feat and Improved Breathing as prerequisites; requiring you to be 6th level before you can properly apply the toilet paper to your derriere. :P

Hyperbolic? Yes.

Wrong? No.

And the policy of "patching" conceptual gaps in the rules by adding feats continues. If I could change one thing about the game, that would be it.

It is O.K. for an RPG system to include new rules that players don't have to pay advancement resources to access. But seemingly not in Pathfinder. Skills are eternally static, and feats creep creep creep.


Deiros wrote:

Again Aelryinth you compare the fighter to the Paladin as if he was specialized in the paladin job when he isn't going to do.

It's like comparing a Paladin to a Cleric, why take the Paladin, clearly the cleric is superior in EVERY way yo the Paladin, it heals more, has domain abilities, spell to do everything other classes do, and if human can also begin with two feats.

That was not a very fair comparison right ^^

The fighter has versatility no power creep supremacy over other classes in their respective field. That is the problem with most people fail to notice.

Fighter doesn't need Wis 14 he just needs a feat to raise his will saves by +2 that he has a better chance to burn than a Paladin ever will.

The paladin has some spells and nifty magic abilities, the fighter gets around his weakness with magic items mostly.

Yet again skills of the paladin are nice, but drop him in the wilderness, make him swim, climb and jump lol let's see how he survives that one, he has super skills right, oh wait he sucks at that why!? Because it is not his role, he has diplomacy, knowledge religion and nobility, he has nice chances at doing something social out of combat and specializes against evil creatures, emergency healing and be a brick wall.

While all that is nice and does it better than the fighter, the fighter can still survive in the wilderness (paladin will not) They can both be brick walls (same armor proficiency and weapons), but the fighter can branch out and also deal damage at a distance (while the paladin specializes at 1 thing).

As I have said before the fighter is there to fill MULTIPLE roles. Just like the Paladin is a crappy cleric, the Fighter is a crappy Paladin but he is better than the crappy paladin in the wilderness, dealing damage consistently and can be above the paladin, he can be as good or even better mounted combatant than the paladin.

Like I said don't measure a class to another that is a specialist in their field, that is plain unfair for the other class.

Otherwise...

Like a ranger isn't better at surviving in wilderness.


ciretose wrote:

@Ashiel

I have a 17 AC vs your 18 AC.

We have the same Attack bonus and I have more hit points than you do.

Based on the Bestiary a CR 1 Monster has 15 hit points.

They have a +2 to attack (so they will generally miss both of us) and they do an average of 7 damage (so I can take two hits)

I will drop them in one or two hits, given my average damage.

You will need two or three hits, based on your average damage.

This is exactly why I want this compared to actual module and adventure path encounters.

Your build is better against a single strong enemy, against several weaker ones i think ashiel build would do good.

But at level one is hard to tell the diference. Let`s see the level 2 builds.


Ashiel wrote:
But since you are a wizard, I'll give you a cool trick that you can use later. Since you can keep your cantrips prepared forever, and thus do not need to re-prepare stuff like prestidigitation and mage hand, you may consider in the future hiding spells on your person, or even eating them. Shrink object lasts for a very long time, and can be used to store pages from your spellbook in tubes. You can then smuggle them around. Worst case scenario, you shove a tiny scroll case up your bung-hole, or swallow them. Later you poop them out, prestidigitation them clean, and then prepare your spells.

You need help. I was going to stick my tongue out at you in jest but I'm afraid of what I would get on it.


ciretose wrote:

@Ashiel

I have a 17 AC vs your 18 AC.

We have the same Attack bonus and I have more hit points than you do.

Based on the Bestiary a CR 1 Monster has 15 hit points.

They have a +2 to attack (so they will generally miss both of us) and they do an average of 7 damage (so I can take two hits)

I will drop them in one or two hits, given my average damage.

You will need two or three hits, based on your average damage.

This is exactly why I want this compared to actual module and adventure path encounters.

That's what I said. Your guy is optimized towards killing singular opponents. Your average damage with your falchion is 14 out of their 15 hit points. The ranger's average damage with his longspear is 10.5 out of their 15 hit points. I'm okay with that. Like I said, you're building for something different than I am (which I said was interesting to see our different priorities).

My Ranger's AC fluctuates between 18 (without shield) and 20 with shield. With a shield, my AC is 20 and my average damage becomes 7.5, but I'm going for survivability and dealing with multiple threats. A CR 1 encounter might include a single CR 1 enemy might be like a Wolf or might be like a Ghoul, or it might include 4 kobolds, or 3 goblins, or 2 hobgoblins. If I'm ambushed by goblins wielding shortbows, I'm going to want to draw my shield to reduce the amount of hits coming in, and can kill 1/round with a successful hit. If I'm fighting a ghoul, I might prefer it to keep its distance with my spear to avoid its natural attacks, or I might use my shield to reduce incoming hits.

Neither method is wrong. We're just different in our priorities.

Dark Archive

Doctor_wu we weren't putting the ranger into that equation ^^ but the ranger is also specialized in his "environment" just like the Paladin is specialized in his area.

I don't see why people keep doing that lol

It's like asking a general doctor to do a great brain operation and then saying a neurologist will do it better lmfao. Of course the neurologist will be better than a general doctor but the general doctor can do many other things the neurologist won't be able to do that well.

I suppose people just measure classes in a weird unfair way, but that is just my opinion and I'm tired of saying that the fighter is versatile but will never take the place of the more specialized classes.

Liberty's Edge

Which is why we need context. Is there going to be an AP or module or are we all just flapping in the wind?

Dark Archive

Well I could suggest a encounter, since I'm not biased towards any class and like the all, just think that they compare the fighter against other classes in their specialized field, while the fighter does have a problem of doing much (skill wise) out of combat.

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