We have a fairly optimized party all ready to rock for when Rise of the Runelords is re-issued, but I signed up for the AP subscription and we'll be getting Skull & Shackles while we wait. Our normal party has a couple of Paladin-esque members and we decided it might be fun to run a slightly less optimized and significantly more scurvy crew for S & S. I'd be interested in hearing what people whom have played through the opening issues think of the party's make-up.
Half-Orc Barbarian (Invulnerable Rager)
Halfling Summoner (Broodmaster - always wanted to play one of these)
Human Bard (Geisha - she's the group's leader, as much through manipulation as anything)
Human Fighter (Two-weapon Warrior - shortsword wielder)
All the members are chaotic neutral, more motivated out of self-interest than any desire to sow chaos or preserve neutrality. The female Bard plays the two warriors off of one another while the greasy little halfling and his brood looks on in amusement. We really thought a handful of not-quite-heroes would be able to embrace the AP with gusto. Think they might suffice, or are they lacking in some area? At least one of the broodmaster's eddy's will be tricked out as a pocket rogue, and at least one will be aquatic in nature.
Hmmm... perhaps a Deulist (Fighter/Rogue) instead of the two-weapon Fighter? I always feel like two-weapon fighting is over-rated.
i'll be running it this summer with a couple of friends that've never played role playing games, they found the pirate theme to their liking and probably start 4th of july area, anyway i'm thinking of making an evil character (or chaotic neutral at least) based loosely from artemis entreri, so far I'm thinking a rogue (knife fighter archetype) that uses two war razors
your party sound awesome, i've always liked evilish halflings and the geisha bard is an excellent idea. a drunken brute barbarian would also be awesome (maybe based on charlie from always sunny).
i'll be running it this summer with a couple of friends that've never played role playing games, they found the pirate theme to their liking and probably start 4th of july area, anyway i'm thinking of making an evil character (or chaotic neutral at least) based loosely from artemis entreri, so far I'm thinking a rogue (knife fighter archetype) that uses two war razors
your party sound awesome, i've always liked evilish halflings and the geisha bard is an excellent idea. a drunken brute barbarian would also be awesome (maybe based on charlie from always sunny).
Yeah, I know what you mean. We don't have any real desire to be 'evil' per se as much as free from society's constraints and cultural mores... you know, pirates. ;)
I think I'm going to replace the two weapon Fighter with a Lore Warden/Duelist. I kind of like the idea of a drunken Barbarian but I'm not sure I can sell it to the player as he's in love with the DR from Invulnerable Rager - we'll see. Its important that the characters not be dependent on metal armor... for instance the bard will be using Snake Style and the Perform skill to sub for Sense Motive. She's thinking about splashing something after 7th level but hasn't decided yet.
the word i was looking for is nefarious, it wasn't coming to me earlier, i wasn't suggesting the player switch archetypes, i just thought drunken brute would be an awesome archetype. i've usually gone with chaotic neutral or some sort of neutral-ish alignment, and found the idea of an evil character intriguing. i can't wait for it myself.
Glad to see you're writing the journal. Only thing I think you're really lacking is healing, unless I'm missing something. Haven't played S&S yet, but from what I've seen on the boards a lot of people are getting whipped damn near to death on a daily basis...and watch out for the rum. Sounds like Mr. Pet got rum and heroin mixed up when he statted up the rules, but with his track record I'm willing to forgive.
Glad to see you're writing the journal. Only thing I think you're really lacking is healing, unless I'm missing something. Haven't played S&S yet, but from what I've seen on the boards a lot of people are getting whipped damn near to death on a daily basis...and watch out for the rum. Sounds like Mr. Pet got rum and heroin mixed up when he statted up the rules, but with his track record I'm willing to forgive.
The Bard is going to use the Human's favored class option to make certain that at every level she has at least 1 healing spell, 1 buff spell and 1 enchantment spell known... she should be adequate to handle most of our healing.
Not sure how much fun it will be for the party to sit around and just get whipped over and over though...
Updating this thread for those who are interested...
Our Skull & Shackles AP order has been delayed in the mail (grrrrrr) which is a shame since we were planning on starting it this weekend - like tonight.
Anyway, after much discussion there has been some changes to the line-up but it will still be a Chaotic Neutral batch of not-evil-but-not-very-nice characters.
Human Bard - the group's leader. Actually she's going to be a Human 7th level Bard (Lotus Geisha) / 1st level Wizard (Transmuter-Enhancement) / 2nd level Fighter (Lore Warden) / 10th level Arcane Archer. Looks exhausting but should make for the perfect leader for our little troupe. The girl who's running it is VERY excited that she gets to be something besides the goody two-shoes healer she's been playing up to this point.
Human Fighter - one of the group's two heavy hitters. He's a Weapon Master wielding a Falchion, a character of my own design. Among other things, he'll have Whirlwind Attack by 4th level.
Half-Orc Thug - actually going to be a 2nd level Barbarian (Invulnerable Rager) / 18th level Rogue (Scout, Thug) running around with an Earthbreaker and taking advantage of the Eldritch Heritage feat line (Orcish Bloodline). He's going to focus on non-lethal damage and should be a monster one-hit, one-kill type of guy.
Halfling Broodmaster - this is the character I'll be running and this is the PoV I'll be recording our 'journal' from. I've run a standard Summoner with a combat-oriented eidolon and an elemental themed Master Summoner to great effectiveness. I'm really embracing the challenge of the Broodmaster - I don't expect him to be as overpowering, but I think he'll be a lot of fun to RP and I suspect that having eidolons capable of both flying and being aquatic will come in very useful in this AP. For a little extra 'oomph' I've given him the Protean bloodline via Eldritch Heritage feats as well. We shall see how he works out.
What we're lacking is that spell-slinger blaster type, but that's fine... we're kind of looking at this as a down and dirty type of campaign and being able to throw fireballs and lightning bolts might just get in the way of us dirtying our hands. I'll let you know how much that lack hurts us, if at all.
Alright, I've spent all day trying to make a Broodmaster work. The only thing I can come up with is to more or less give up the combat angle and make them all various skill monkeys... but with them out, you can't use Summon Monster, greatly blunting any ability to help in combat, and of course if you dismiss them you can't get them back in the same day without using a spell.
I think I'm just going to go with a version of my favorite character, a Master Summoner. He will just be much better able to help out the party. Shame, too, as I was looking forward to making my own 'crew' of little gremlins...
You should probably realize that the AP will probably cap out at 15th-16th level. So your players who are looking to what their 20th level characters will be like might be disappointed (unless you plan on continuing the campaign beyond book 6).
No, we figured it would get us to 17th at the highest... I tend to make most of the characters for the group and I like to plan them from beginning to end, no matter how high a level they eventually rise.
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I'm hoping that this AP shows people that you can run "evil" PCs without lowering yourself to mindless violence, rape, and other immature actions resulting from a skewed need for power fantasy. Sometimes I think playing evil PCs becomes an excuse to turn off one's brain, let loose which is unfortunate IMO.
There have been plenty of evil people IRL that have maintained a sense of rationality.
I've read through the summoner description several times and don't see where it says the eidolon can only be summoned once per day.
It requires a one minute ritual to summon, but no per-day info. It does say you have to wait til the next day if your eidolon is banished due to death though.
I just double-checked that on your word and this was the entry I found...
A summoner can summon his eidolon in a ritual that takes 1 minute to perform. When summoned in this way, the eidolon hit points are unchanged from the last time it was dismissed or banished. The only exception to this is if the eidolon was slain, in which case it returns with half its normal hit points. The eidolon does not heal naturally. The eidolon remains until dismissed by the summoner (a standard action). If the eidolon is sent back to its home plane due to death, it cannot be summoned again until the following day. The eidolon cannot be sent back to its home plane by means of dispel magic, but spells such as dismissal and banishment work normally. If the summoner is unconscious, asleep, or killed, his eidolon is immediately banished.
I always mentally filled in the blank and assumed that meant if he were dismissed, killed, banished whatever, but clearly that's not the case. Thanks for pointing that out.
With that understanding, it makes me reconsider the Broodmaster, but only a little... my Master Summoner is just SO very effective, and I suspect will be doubly so in this environment.That and all of the ambiguity in the rules concerning Broodmasters (like Synthesists) tend to make me want to shy away.
I'm hoping that this AP shows people that you can run "evil" PCs without lowering yourself to mindless violence, rape, and other immature actions resulting from a skewed need for power fantasy. Sometimes I think playing evil PCs becomes an excuse to turn off one's brain, let loose which is unfortunate IMO.
There have been plenty of evil people IRL that have maintained a sense of rationality.
That's why I'm intending to run them as Chaotic Neutral. The way I see it, there are two kinds of 'bad guys' - the kind who are simply self-motivated by greed, survival or power to the exclusion of all else (which I would describe as neutral and either lawful or chaotic depending on their personal philosophies)... and then there is the kind who are sadistic, cruel and destructive for its own sake. THOSE are the people I consider truly 'evil'.
Overtaking a merchant vessel, robbing its goods, capturing all who didn't put up a fight and holding them until ransoms can be arranged = chaotic neutral. Overtaking a merchant vessel, killing every man alive even if they surrendered, raping the women and then tossing them overboard to the sea serpents that who followed the ship = chaotic evil.
Overtaking a merchant vessel, robbing its goods, capturing all who didn't put up a fight and holding them until ransoms can be arranged = chaotic neutral. Overtaking a merchant vessel, killing every man alive even if they surrendered, raping the women and then tossing them overboard to the sea serpents that who followed the ship = chaotic evil.
Both evil. Although "ransoming" for money is just selfish greed, while "murdering" everyone is bloodlust.Yeah second one is even more despicable. Unless I missed the privilege to "rob everyone" as sort of a basic inalienable right ? Perhaps of pirates ?
Looking at the crew of the Wormwood : pressing bystanders, robbing them off their possessions, whipping-to-recruit said bystanders into work = not evil ? Keelhauling, sweatboxing or executing resistance included ?
Seems the entire first part of the adventure rides on that... up to the mutiny about it.
Alright, we had our first session and I'm going to be posting the journal entries very soon. A few off-hand thoughts:
Really very heavily role-playing geared early on and allowed our high-charisma characters more chances to shine than usual. Suprisingly little combat or spell-casting during the first half of #55.
I was surprised that there was not more addressed when it came to 1) characters openly wearing weapons, 2) characters openly casting spells, 3) what would/should happen when characters who got back their gear were actually seen with their gear.
Master Summoners still rule, especially at lower levels, but I really thought I'd have more use for my eidolon early on.
Lots and lots of NPC's to keep track of. VERY difficult to resist the urge to mutiny or instigate conflicts... we're not used to rubbing elbows with 'foes' we have no hope of defeating. It forced us to get creative at times.
We made a few alteratons at the beginning:
We started at 2nd level but with 0 experience points as we always do when beginning a new adventure.
We did away with the rum ration which seemed to have poorly thought-out mechanics and did nothign to enhance our play.
We generated characters with a 20 point buy but with the understanding that we would all have to take Profession: Sailor, Knowledge: Navigation and/or Knowledge: Oceans and devote a minimum of 1 skill rank per level to them. Only classes who normally recieved Profession as a class skill got the class skill bonus.
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Both evil. Although "ransoming" for money is just selfish greed, while "murdering" everyone is bloodlust.Yeah second one is even more despicable. Unless I missed the privilege to "rob everyone" as sort of a basic inalienable right ? Perhaps of pirates ?
Overtaking a merchant vessel, robbing its goods, capturing all who didn't put up a fight and holding them until ransoms can be arranged = chaotic neutral. Overtaking a merchant vessel, killing every man alive even if they surrendered, raping the women and then tossing them overboard to the sea serpents that who followed the ship = chaotic evil.
Yeah, both are evil, but there are degrees of evil. Most people in society are "neutral". They love their families, they don't hurt other people around them on purpose, but they aren't altruists who sell all their worldly goods to help the poor, or risk their lives to help strangers etc... Robbing and pillaging is evil: whether just the mundane "I'm greedy" evil or the melodramatic "I enjoy the suffering of others" evil.
Chaotic Neutral does not equal "do whatever I want". Chaotic Neutral is a libertarian - you don't tell me how to run my life and I won't tell you how to run yours. Libertarians don't champion the right to engage in armed robbery and murder for personal gain.
Both evil. Although "ransoming" for money is just selfish greed, while "murdering" everyone is bloodlust.Yeah second one is even more despicable. Unless I missed the privilege to "rob everyone" as sort of a basic inalienable right ? Perhaps of pirates ?
Overtaking a merchant vessel, robbing its goods, capturing all who didn't put up a fight and holding them until ransoms can be arranged = chaotic neutral. Overtaking a merchant vessel, killing every man alive even if they surrendered, raping the women and then tossing them overboard to the sea serpents that who followed the ship = chaotic evil.Yeah, both are evil, but there are degrees of evil. Most people in society are "neutral". They love their families, they don't hurt other people around them on purpose, but they aren't altruists who sell all their worldly goods to help the poor, or risk their lives to help strangers etc... Robbing and pillaging is evil: whether just the mundane "I'm greedy" evil or the melodramatic "I enjoy the suffering of others" evil.
Chaotic Neutral does not equal "do whatever I want". Chaotic Neutral is a libertarian - you don't tell me how to run my life and I won't tell you how to run yours. Libertarians don't champion the right to engage in armed robbery and murder for personal gain.
As a registered Libertarian I'll have to disagree with that a little an dpaint a Libertarian as neutral good. They recognize the need for law for society to exist nor are they indifferent to evil... government - including taxation - is needed to prevent lawlessness from running wild, to provide for defense and whatnot... but in their minds - like those of our founding fathers - those who govern least govern best.
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As a registered Libertarian I'll have to disagree with that a little an dpaint a Libertarian as neutral good. They recognize the need for law for society to exist nor are they indifferent to evil... government - including taxation - is needed to prevent lawlessness from running wild, to provide for defense and whatnot... but in their minds - like those of our founding fathers - those who govern least govern best.
Don't want to derail the forums with politics so I will just say that your version of neutral is strange to me. Neutral is not indifferent to evil. Being indifferent to evil is evil. If you see someone being murdered and you think "meh, it's not me."- you're evil. The difference between neutral and good is that good is actively altruistic. A neutral person isn't okay with unjust violence and would act to stop it if it were in front of them. A good person goes out of their way and risks their own safety to help others.
As a registered Libertarian I'll have to disagree with that a little an dpaint a Libertarian as neutral good. They recognize the need for law for society to exist nor are they indifferent to evil... government - including taxation - is needed to prevent lawlessness from running wild, to provide for defense and whatnot... but in their minds - like those of our founding fathers - those who govern least govern best.Don't want to derail the forums with politics so I will just say that your version of neutral is strange to me. Neutral is not indifferent to evil. Being indifferent to evil is evil. If you see someone being murdered and you think "meh, it's not me."- you're evil. The difference between neutral and good is that good is actively altruistic. A neutral person isn't okay with unjust violence and would act to stop it if it were in front of them. A good person goes out of their way and risks their own safety to help others.
Yeah, we definitely disagree on what neutral is... I consider it to be halfway between good and evil, which is to say doing no harm unless they stand to benefit and in that case having little problem doing so. I just don't consider 'not wanting to get involved' as inherently evil.
Not that it matters much - the Chaotic/Lawful/Good/Evil alignment compass never worked for me anyway.