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D&D next playtest info ( with video)


D&D 4th Edition (and Beyond)

Cheliax

Ok... so thoughts so far ?

video = Go to click here.

Likes: You don't need miniatures.
Saving Throws are reactive Stat Checks
Stats are mostly 1-20, with higher being possible.
Movement is talked about in feet rather than squares
You can move before and after combat.
Coup de Grace is an attack, if successful it drops them to 0HP, or to death if they were at o HP.
Improvise in combat (left up to GM)
1 auto miss, 20 auto hit deals max damage
At 0HP you are dying, make death saving throws once a round DC 10 or take 1D6 damage
Need to succeed 3 of these to stabalize
Armor is +Dex for light armor, and +1/2 Dex for heavier armor
Disadvantage when using armor to be silent
Weapon damage seems to be what I expect variable damage to be.
You can cast spells out of combat.
Cantrips or Orisons at will
Vancian magic, & rituals
Turn Undead as a spell
Cure light wounds `1D8+ magic stat
Spells seem flexible and are straight forward
More power to the GMs
Contests are stat checks vs stat checks highest wins
Flexible set of guidlines not a rigid set of laws
GMs can give a check an advantage or disavantage based on circumstances
A section on ignoring the dice
Perception checks are Wisdom checks
Roll playing and role-playing are discussed.

dislikes /Not sure:

Advantage/Disadvantage 2D20 take highest or lowest
If you have advantage & disadvantage they cancel each other out.
Shooting into combat puts you at disadvantage
Hit Points are inflated: 1st Con + Dice Roll, con mod or dice roll for additional levels
Individual initiative
Dead at negative con + level
Short Rest - not sure how this works, but it sounds like a Conan break after he was badly injured, healing surge?
Long Rest get all your hit points back
Spell attacks with Int or Wis (depending on your class)


wellsmv wrote:

Ok... so thoughts so far ?

video = Go to click here.

No comment as I'm not participating in playtests, but the listing and video are MUCH appreciated.

thanks

wellsmv wrote:
Advantage/Disadvantage 2D20 take highest or lowest

Interesting. It turns out to be one of my favourite mechanical "trick" of the new Cubicle 7's The One Ring game (although the take highest/lowest isn't related to combat advantage/disadvantage per se). I guess it can be annoying if it comes on most rolls, but it could be very effective if it happens sparingly.

'findel


The advantage/disadvantage thing is clever and novel, though in light of 4E skill challenges I'm not sure they completely understand the probability implications.


bugleyman wrote:
The advantage/disadvantage thing is clever and novel, though in light of 4E skill challenges I'm not sure they completely understand the probability implications.

What are the probability implications? I like it. It's a new way to give a bonus or handicap without adding more math to the calculation plus it's a universal rule that can be applied to almost anything.

Qadira

Fletch wrote:
bugleyman wrote:
The advantage/disadvantage thing is clever and novel, though in light of 4E skill challenges I'm not sure they completely understand the probability implications.

What are the probability implications? I like it. It's a new way to give a bonus or handicap without adding more math to the calculation plus it's a universal rule that can be applied to almost anything.

I made a program: http://anydice.com/program/11fd

Basically, 2d20 drop the lowest accounts for about a 14 average die roll on a d20. Also, it means that a natural 20 is almost twice as likely (9.75 against 5.00) to happen. This means that combatants with advantage will be more likely to get in critical hits.

Conversely, disadvantage translates to about a 7 average die roll on a d20. Do note that this isn't as straightforward as saying that it's a -4/+4 bonus on all rolls, because it actually turns the probability distribution of the d20 from a straight line into an obtuse or acute line. (i.e. one that either favours low rolls or high rolls)


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Fletch wrote:
bugleyman wrote:
The advantage/disadvantage thing is clever and novel, though in light of 4E skill challenges I'm not sure they completely understand the probability implications.

What are the probability implications? I like it. It's a new way to give a bonus or handicap without adding more math to the calculation plus it's a universal rule that can be applied to almost anything.

Off the top of my head, disadvantage hurts some people (.95^2 = ~.9) much less than it does others (say .05^2 =.0025). So if you needed a 2 to hit (95%) and have disadvantage, you still hit 90% of the time, meaning your chance of success is roughly 95% of what it was, but if you needed a 20 before (5%), you now have a .25% change of hitting, meaning your chance of success is now 5% of what it was.

But again, I think it is elegant...just not sure it's very transparent in play.

Qadira

bugleyman wrote:
Fletch wrote:
bugleyman wrote:
The advantage/disadvantage thing is clever and novel, though in light of 4E skill challenges I'm not sure they completely understand the probability implications.

What are the probability implications? I like it. It's a new way to give a bonus or handicap without adding more math to the calculation plus it's a universal rule that can be applied to almost anything.

Off the top of my head, disadvantage hurts some people (.95^2 = ~.9) much less than it does others (say .05^2 =.0025). So if you needed a 2 to hit (95%) and have disadvantage, you still hit 90% of the time, meaning your chance of success is roughly 95% of what it was, but if you needed a 20 before (5%), you now have a .25% change of hitting, meaning your chance of success is now 5% of what it was.

But again, I think it is elegant...just not sure it's very transparent in play.

Yeah, also this. The actual benefits of advantage depend heavily upon what you actually need to roll to succeed. It's basically a game of diminishing returns. With advantage, even though you'll be more likely to roll a 20 than without advantage, if you absolutely need to roll a 20 the advantage will be much worse than, say, if you needed only a 19 to roll.

I mean, the probability of rolling a 20 on 2d20 (drop the lowest) is 9.75%, compared to 5% on a straight d20. However, if you only needed a 19 to succeed, your chances on 2d20 (drop the lowest) would be 19.00%, against 10% on a straight d20.

So, the higher you actually need to roll, the less mileage you will actually get out of advantage. However, when you don't necessarily need to roll high, it nearly doubles your chances for a critical hit.

EDIT: The converse, of course, applies for disadvantage. If you need a roll of 7 to succeed, you only have a middling 49% chance of succeeding with disadvantage. If you need a 6 to succeed, it goes up to 56.25%.

I like it.


I would prefer a straight +4/-4, which is a standard D&D mechanic. It gives you a better chance to succeed or fail, while not increasing chances for critical or fumble.

The standard +4 modifier has been common in the game since AD&D, and doesn't require a significant amount of math. Roll and add or subtract, just like you do with everything else.

I don't want to introduce an alien mechanic to my game.


wellsmv wrote:


1 auto miss, 20 auto hit deals max damage

Is that right? I saw no reference to a natural 20 being an automatic hit, though I was unsure if this was intentional or an omission. I guess, if you need a natural 20 to hit, you have bigger problems than that. :)


Jerry Wright 307 wrote:

I would prefer a straight +4/-4, which is a standard D&D mechanic. It gives you a better chance to succeed or fail, while not increasing chances for critical or fumble.

The standard +4 modifier has been common in the game since AD&D, and doesn't require a significant amount of math. Roll and add or subtract, just like you do with everything else.

I don't want to introduce an alien mechanic to my game.

While I rather like the advantage/disadvantage mechanic in itself, I do feel it might a little too abstract. There are no 'stacking' penalties. If I'm not proficient with a longbow, I have disadvantage, so I might as well fire the longbow into melee, at 600 feet, while clinging to the side of a wall in a thunderstorm. A proficient archer has no better luck at firing into melee, than a non-proficient archer.

Maybe they have yet to detail the system further.


I think it's as detailed as it's going to get, for the core. They might add optional rules later, but this is probably pretty much it.

Qadira

Jerry Wright 307 wrote:

I would prefer a straight +4/-4, which is a standard D&D mechanic. It gives you a better chance to succeed or fail, while not increasing chances for critical or fumble.

The standard +4 modifier has been common in the game since AD&D, and doesn't require a significant amount of math. Roll and add or subtract, just like you do with everything else.

I don't want to introduce an alien mechanic to my game.

I much prefer the advantage/disadvantage mechanic over a standard modifier, because I get a boner from math.

Also, there's the fact that one of the results of advantage is that it increases your chance of getting a critical hit on an attack. There's no way to map that with a straight modifier, unless you decide to arbitrarily increase a character's "threat range" for attacks where they have advantage.

Then again, it's one of those things that should be really easy to houserule away. :)


I believe advantage/disadvantage has the added social benefit of encouraging or discouraging different kinds of actions. When a guardian character uses his shield to protect another character, it's not just that the enemy gets a -x to hit him, he actually has an extra chance of failure (if that makes sense).

Using ranged weapons in melee, assisting another combatant, trying to cllimb at full speed. You don't just get a + or - to the roll, you get a second chance to succeed or to fail and that comes with its own mentality.

"Sure you want to swim at full speed? If you succeed, I'm going to make you roll again."

Qadira

One thing I am worried about though is if getting Advantage becomes the stunt-fishing of Exalted, i.e. that players will be coming up with tricks each turn to beg the DM for Advantage every turn.

I mean, on one level, it's good because it encourages players to be more creative, but the problem arises when having Advantage becomes so... advantageous that players will always try to squeeze it out even when it doesn't really make sense in the situation.

Or in Exalted terms, everyone does backflips in combat all the time because they can't come up with any other way to get those stunt dice.

Cheliax

One playtest game finished.... very interesting so far..

It is a strange system to say the least.


wellsmv wrote:

One playtest game finished.... very interesting so far..

It is a strange system to say the least.

In what way, if I may ask?


Ratpick wrote:
One thing I am worried about though is if getting Advantage becomes the stunt-fishing of Exalted, i.e. that players will be coming up with tricks each turn to beg the DM for Advantage every turn.

Interesting point.

In all fairness, that's what I would expect adventurers to do; put themselves in a position of advantage whenever they can (but so would then enemies), but I agree that it could become mechanically "heavy".

I'd have to experience it for myself to comment further, but if it can bring the game to something more than "I hit you, you hit me"; all the better.

'findel


Ratpick wrote:

One thing I am worried about though is if getting Advantage becomes the stunt-fishing of Exalted, i.e. that players will be coming up with tricks each turn to beg the DM for Advantage every turn.

There was a paragraph discouraging rewarding that kind of behaviour, especially in combat. It did make me think of Exalted, and brought a smile to my lips.

Qadira

Slaunyeh wrote:
Ratpick wrote:

One thing I am worried about though is if getting Advantage becomes the stunt-fishing of Exalted, i.e. that players will be coming up with tricks each turn to beg the DM for Advantage every turn.

There was a paragraph discouraging rewarding that kind of behaviour, especially in combat. It did make me think of Exalted, and brought a smile to my lips.

That's good to hear.

I also hoped that so that getting Advantage doesn't become a game of mother-may-I that the DM be provided with robust tools for what sort of things to give Advantage for. If there are enough guidelines for what sort of things give Advantage, I can see the system working just fine.

I also love how Advantage shifts around the math. It's pretty sweet.


bugleyman wrote:
Fletch wrote:
bugleyman wrote:
The advantage/disadvantage thing is clever and novel, though in light of 4E skill challenges I'm not sure they completely understand the probability implications.

What are the probability implications? I like it. It's a new way to give a bonus or handicap without adding more math to the calculation plus it's a universal rule that can be applied to almost anything.

Off the top of my head, disadvantage hurts some people (.95^2 = ~.9) much less than it does others (say .05^2 =.0025). So if you needed a 2 to hit (95%) and have disadvantage, you still hit 90% of the time, meaning your chance of success is roughly 95% of what it was, but if you needed a 20 before (5%), you now have a .25% change of hitting, meaning your chance of success is now 5% of what it was.

But again, I think it is elegant...just not sure it's very transparent in play.

Yes! Deep, solid, supported analysis! Everyone should be math-ing this hard.


watched the video...a common theme is borrowing from pathfinder. Is it truly?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Kryzbyn wrote:
watched the video...a common theme is borrowing from pathfinder. Is it truly?

I see "Castle's & Crusades" in it myself (which is meant as a compliment)...

I like what I'm seeing (I really do), but at least so far and speaking only for myself and my group of course, I see no reason to convert over to the new edition once it's out (because I am quite happy playing both Pathfinder and 2nd Edition)...

Osirion

Scott Betts wrote:
bugleyman wrote:
Fletch wrote:
bugleyman wrote:
The advantage/disadvantage thing is clever and novel, though in light of 4E skill challenges I'm not sure they completely understand the probability implications.

What are the probability implications? I like it. It's a new way to give a bonus or handicap without adding more math to the calculation plus it's a universal rule that can be applied to almost anything.

Off the top of my head, disadvantage hurts some people (.95^2 = ~.9) much less than it does others (say .05^2 =.0025). So if you needed a 2 to hit (95%) and have disadvantage, you still hit 90% of the time, meaning your chance of success is roughly 95% of what it was, but if you needed a 20 before (5%), you now have a .25% change of hitting, meaning your chance of success is now 5% of what it was.

But again, I think it is elegant...just not sure it's very transparent in play.

Yes! Deep, solid, supported analysis! Everyone should be math-ing this hard.

I like that the concept doesn't screw over more powerful characters. I can also envision it playing out with greater survivability. Giving a 3.X dragon a -2 on attacks means nothing. Making them take lowest on each attack is meaningful (especially if the DM is rolling in the open).

It also means that with Advantage you can't fumble without two 1s (or like bugleyman says, with Disadvantage, you can't crit without two 2s).


2 people marked this as a favorite.

I suspect that players/DMs will invariably assign greater weight to the disadvantage/advantage states than the +/-4 analysis would imply.

Psychologically, I hate having to take the lower of two rolls, just as much as I love being able to take the better of two rolls. Human minds are funny, irrational things.

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