Design problem in "Wormwood Mutiny"?


Skull & Shackles


Prepping for coming session I reread the character descriptions. And.. encountered a possibly problematic setup :

Captain Harrigan has supposedly recently (adventure outline ) been captured by the Chelians. Given his current "few good men" status, that must have been in the last few weeks or months. After all, he is "re-equipping".
Now Kroop on the other hand has been with Barnanbas Harrigan for some time. The codex says three years, at least two of which he was utterly in Harrigan's debt...

Which would mean : Was Kroop along for the Chelian escapade ? Or was that even further in the past - but then why did it take Harrigan three years to "re-emerge" ? Given that Kroop is certainly not within the good graces of Harrigan, this seems like a dead giveaway for the further plot. The situation btw is similar for Mister Plugg, but he has only been along for a year. Which still is quite long.

The characters here abouts are thick with Kroop. They have asked quite a bit about Harrigan and his officers. But once they are "free" of Harrigan they are gonna look at ways to hurt him...

So.... how is the setup supposed to work ?

And yeah. "Pirates of the Fever Sea" seems to imply Kroop should be kept around.

Shadow Lodge

I would imagine that those of the crew that it says have been with them for a while (Kroop, namely...possibly Plugg, Scourge, and the other officers, since they've been there for quite some time at least) survived the run-in with the Chelaxians.

I'm not sure what you're getting at here, though. If you're speaking to the overarching plot and Harrigan's plans, I don't think anyone but Harrigan knows what they're working toward...so I doubt Kroop or any of the other officers would be able to reveal anything to the PCs that they shouldn't know yet.


SPOILER FOLLOWS - GM'S ONLY:

I still have a major issue with the dreaded pirate Harrigan having been captured and then released. Did they take him on his word that he will help them attack Port Peril? It just doesn't seem likely that they would do this... unless of course they have blackmailed him or have a way of controling him now? I'm guess this must be the case and will be explained later.

If it was a simple matter of "Oh hey you finally caught me, but instead of killing me for all the years of disruption I caused you, how about I help you attack Port Peril? Just let me go and I promise to help you. I give you my word, because of course a pirate's word is worth it's weight in gold. Right?"


I've scratched my head over the same issue Kor brings up. Perhaps it will be explored in a later episode? If not, I'm probably going to rule it as magic of some sort.


Caulky is actually an Ashmede devil to make sure Harrigan upholds his side of the bargain, lol. Or maybe they made him sign a contract with a Phistophilus devil. That's how Cheliax rolls.


Well, if it is not explained, I think I will go with the fiendish Caulky option :)


Re-write it so he wasn't captured. Cheliax had spies seek out which pirates would most likely go for the betrayal deal. Harrigan fit the bill and was never captured in the first place. As a show of good faith, he betrayed most of his crew to capture, but got to keep his loyal inner circle around him.


Devastation Bob wrote:
Re-write it so he wasn't captured. Cheliax had spies seek out which pirates would most likely go for the betrayal deal. Harrigan fit the bill and was never captured in the first place. As a show of good faith, he betrayed most of his crew to capture, but got to keep his loyal inner circle around him.

I like this one.

I did think of another option as well.

It's not Captain Harrigan at all. He's the fake, maybe a doppleganger?


And I would have gotten away with it too, if it weren't for you meddling PCs!


Skull and Shackles, part 4: And lo, there shall come an UNMASKING!


Dane Pitchford wrote:
I'm not sure what you're getting at here, though. If you're speaking to the overarching plot and Harrigan's plans, I don't think anyone but Harrigan knows what they're working toward...so I doubt Kroop or any of the other officers would be able to reveal anything to the PCs that they shouldn't know yet.

You have read the entire "adventure outline" ?

Spoiler:

"But such plans take time, and Harrigan needed to
solidify his own position in the hierarchy of the Free
Captains before he could seize power following the
Chelish invasion, all the while ensuring that no word got
out of his treachery. Fortunately, with the exception of a
few close confidantes of the captain, the Wormwood’s crew
was decimated in the battle with the Chelish navy, but
Harrigan needed to replenish his crew with fresh bodies.
He returned to Port Peril, the rough-and-tumble capital
of the Shackles, to press-gang new hands for his ship—
including the PCs, who now find themselves members of
his crew of scoundrels and cutthroats."

The price of infamy
By Tim Hitchcock
Pathfinder Adventure Path #59, Levels 11–12
The PCs now have an island, but they’ll need to attract other
pirates to their flag to form a fleet. Once the PCs bring their new followers back to their island, their old rival Captain
Barnabas Harrigan decides to get his revenge by attacking
the PCs’ island with his own fleet. The PCs must defend the
island against Harrigan’s pirates, culminating in a battle
between the PC’s ship and their old vessel, the Wormwood.
After defeating the enemy fleet, the PCs sail to
Harrigan’s island, intent on finally defeating their old foe.
If they succeed, the PCs discover that Harrigan is a traitor
who has sold out the Shackles to Cheliax in exchange for
immunity for his crimes and a chance to rule what’s left
of the pirate isles. Worst of all, they learn a Chelish fleet is
already on its way to the Shackles.

If part four and five of the AP revolve around the players finding out just who on the council is deliberately betraying the Shackles, it makes very little sense if at least one ally (and what exactly about Kroop does not make him a quasi automatic ally ?) introduced in episode one tells them in AP one or at the beginning of AP two... at the very least before the Regatta that Harrigan is a spy and has made a deal with the Devil/Cheliax ? What would then exactly be the plot of AP 5 ?

Why would Harrigan even leave Plugg and Kropp out of his purview if that is "the big secret" ?

Or given that Harrigan is most liekely NE or CE, why even leave them alive ? The less people know, the safer his secret....

And yes, "oh Captain Harrigan has been captured by the Chelish with the loss of all his crew.... but then they suddenly left him alive to go home. With all his stuff..." is sort of a dead giveaway. And IMHO that is precisely why the Officers do not talk much with the crew, and why Plugg cannot breach their "inner circle".

So letting Kroop waltz about is meant to do what precisely ?

Dark Archive

Well first I would ask is how much can Kroop actually remember? (If memory serves he is a raging alcholic after all. Yep reading his entry he has spent the last 2 years as a washed up drunk essentially.)


Kevin Mack wrote:
Well first I would ask is how much can Kroop actually remember? (If memory serves he is a raging alcholic after all. Yep reading his entry he has spent the last 2 years as a washed up drunk essentially.)

I was sitting drunk in a Chelian prison ? When we were captured by the Chelians ? Hey what happened to the old crew ? Why are we sailing this old lubberly pot anyway ?

Right.
Nevermind that most of the drunks I have gotten to know in my life are capable of remembering stuff. usually the problem is them remembering all too well - which then leads to drinking. Nevermind, having gone to prison in Cheliax.... does anyone really think they gave him alcohol ? Anyone think that going cold-turkey is something that slipped his mind ?

working plans only


maybe Bezebel is a shapechanged imp, using its Suggestion ability to keep Kroop in line...
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/monsters/devil.html#_devil-imp

Quote:
One in every thousand imps possesses the ability to communicate telepathically with creatures within 50 feet and the power to change its form into that of any Small or Tiny animal, as per the spell beast shape II. These imp consulars are highly prized by powerful devils, who send them to serve their favored minions or to corrupt mortals with great destinies. An imp consular can be summoned via the Improved Familiar feat, but only by a spellcaster of 8th level or higher. Diabolists tell of other breeds of imps with similarly specialized abilities, but if such creatures truly exist they are an especially rare lot.

...could make for a nasty surprise later in the AP ;)


After the recent blog post, there is another option.

A Chelaxian Dreamweaver witch could have made sure that no one on the crew wonders about all that.

The Exchange

I also kind of wander what is a 16th level lord of the shackles doing, wasting his time with small time vessels like the workwood. a 16th level character with political influence should be able to do much better than this.

Shadow Lodge

Devastation Bob wrote:
Re-write it so he wasn't captured. Cheliax had spies seek out which pirates would most likely go for the betrayal deal. Harrigan fit the bill and was never captured in the first place. As a show of good faith, he betrayed most of his crew to capture, but got to keep his loyal inner circle around him.

This. I think Harrigan is more villainous if he sought Cheliax out rather than getting captured.

Fortunately, this plotline is only vaguely hinted at in the first two modules so we don't need to worry about having perfect explanations in place. By the time the full story is out we should be able to weave it in, hopefully, without any contradictions arising.

Sovereign Court

Harrigan's relations with Cheliax (and exactly why things are going as they are) will be explained later in the AP when these details become much more important.

Most of Harrigan's officers don't know anything about what happened to Harrigan and the Wormwood with Cheliax. They are, for the most part, new crewmembers on the Wormwood. What this adventure doesn't say, but is revealed later, is that Harrigan has multiple ships under his command (he is 16th level, after all). Most of the Wormwood's current officers likely came from those other ships.

I would not have Kroop accompanying Harrigan when he was captured. Kroop is designed to be an ally for the PCs, and he shouldn't have knowledge about Harrigan's plans. As for where he was, he could have been on another ship, or on shore leave, and was brought back to the Wormwood before the PCs were press-ganged.


sabedoriaclark wrote:
Fortunately, this plotline is only vaguely hinted at in the first two modules so we don't need to worry about having perfect explanations in place. By the time the full story is out we should be able to weave it in, hopefully, without any contradictions arising.

Not quite as much fun if you are actually already playing it. Two sessions over the Whitsun weekend.

Guess I will have to come up with some "there is a gap in his memory" story. Got some ideas, but well... Iron nails and stuff, or a trepanion or something wicked possibly something the players can "undo" later on in the adventure(s), "resetting" his mind after something the Chelaxians did. Caulky might be a good idea, too.

@RmC If he is above such "trivia" what exactly is he doing on the "Wormwood" ? An understaffed, ill-equipped, and don't mind me, I will not even get started on that... of a ship itself.

And given the portraits of Mister Plugg and others, that seems somehow... well, just unlikely. "Apple of my eye" etc. "Loves his cooking and that's the only reason he is kept around"...

but.... thanks for the answer.


Pathfinder Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

If you need an answer now, how about this:

Harrigan made the deal with Cheliax, but most of his crew know nothing about it, they weren't in the cabin where the deal was made. All they know is that Harrigan and a few of the officers managed to get the upper hand on the few Chelaxians guarding him, took their weapons and with the help of his crew, he retook the Wormwood (a lot of them died doing the retaking).

This should add to his reputation with the PCs and other pirates - even when captured and slated for death, he is dangerous.

Kroop is one of the crew that knows nothing about the deal, so there is nothing for him to tell, or forget to tell the PCs.


Of course (and the module may say differently; can't check 'cause I'm still at work), the "deal" may very well have been brokered outside of the ship. Think the scene between Jack Sparrow and the English in the 4th Pirates movie.


Mistwalker wrote:

If you need an answer now, how about this:

Harrigan made the deal with Cheliax, but most of his crew know nothing about it, they weren't in the cabin where the deal was made. All they know is that Harrigan and a few of the officers managed to get the upper hand on the few Chelaxians guarding him, took their weapons and with the help of his crew, he retook the Wormwood (a lot of them died doing the retaking).

This should add to his reputation with the PCs and other pirates - even when captured and slated for death, he is dangerous.

Kroop is one of the crew that knows nothing about the deal, so there is nothing for him to tell, or forget to tell the PCs.

Right. Because the "few Chelians" stormed that ship by themselves..... all few dozens or hundreds

And basically : There is a traitor in league with the Chelians. And Harrigan just miraculously escaped from the Chelians. A guy who suddenly needs new crew, a new ship etc etc etc. 'nuff said

Will rewrite. RmC's answer was basically what I needed, if unwished for.


Pathfinder Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
vikingson wrote:
Mistwalker wrote:

If you need an answer now, how about this:

Harrigan made the deal with Cheliax, but most of his crew know nothing about it, they weren't in the cabin where the deal was made. All they know is that Harrigan and a few of the officers managed to get the upper hand on the few Chelaxians guarding him, took their weapons and with the help of his crew, he retook the Wormwood (a lot of them died doing the retaking).

This should add to his reputation with the PCs and other pirates - even when captured and slated for death, he is dangerous.

Kroop is one of the crew that knows nothing about the deal, so there is nothing for him to tell, or forget to tell the PCs.

Right. Because the "few Chelians" stormed that ship by themselves..... all few dozens or hundreds

I didn't say that his ship was taken by a few Chelaxians. I said that he overcame the few that were guarding him, took their weapons, freed the rest of his crew and lead them in the retaking of the Wormwood.

Once a ship has been captures, those that capture it put a prize crew on board, put the old crew in chains, and sail the ship to a friendly (or home) port, where the prisoners are unloaded, extra crew are taken on, new stores loaded, repairs made and the ship put back into service. There are not hundreds in the prize crew.

What I have suggested above does not contradict what Rob McCreary said (well not yet)

Dark Archive

Also there is a traitor in league with the Chelexians but does anyone actually know about that outside of Harrigan (Far as I'm aware in the first two books at least outsie the plot summary and sypnopsis there is no clue of any treachery at all)


Mistwalker wrote:

I didn't say that his ship was taken by a few Chelaxians. I said that he overcame the few that were guarding him, took their weapons, freed the rest of his crew and lead them in the retaking of the Wormwood.

Once a ship has been captures, those that capture it put a prize crew on board, put the old crew in chains, and sail the ship to a friendly (or home) port, where the prisoners are unloaded, extra crew are taken on, new stores loaded, repairs made and the ship put back into service. There are not hundreds in the prize crew.

What I have suggested above does not contradict what Rob McCreary said (well not yet)

Please : no lecturing on Historical Navy stuff...

if you capture a pirate (of this calibre.. yeah, only a Pirate Lord...) : you guard him well... because he was 16th level beforehand, too, and probably killed dozens of your finest.
One clamps that guy in iron as hard as you can, possibly even teleports him home (unconscious or not) and given what Cheliax is capable off, there are quite a number of really nasty things (usually even worse in player imagination) that some capable Chelians, especially Asmodean priests, and who really believes you would have those on a major naval expedition, can get a hold on to chastise him. Devils left, devils right and probably two more sitting straight on his shoulders ?

And yes, teleportation and devils were usually not available to historical navies. For the Chelians though : full check

...and prize crews were only used on "prizes" sent home for sale to ports while the warship sailed on, not for enemy vessels with high-ranking pirates aboard. Those were kept "in fleet", the crew shackled below, and sizable contingents aboard.
And high-ranking officers being separated from the men - not always done by stupid captains, much to their chargrin. Nevermind that very few pirates actually saw a "fair" process and were not executed beforehand. Right on the spot. Ask Blackbeard. Or Bartholomew Roberts. Who would actually care ? Which given that "Harrigan" was a notorious pirate for the Chelian navy is what I would have expected.

In a way, I have my doubts that "Harrigan" is even Harrigan anymore, but only the AP can prove as much.

Kevin Mack wrote:
Also there is a traitor in league with the Chelexians but does anyone actually know about that outside of Harrigan (Far as I'm aware in the first two books at least outsie the plot summary and sypnopsis there is no clue of any treachery at all)

The problem ist : People asking and taking notes. And taking background notes on the guy who "abducted you" is far in the foreground. I guess it will be for most people. We are all carrying notebooks, plus there being a campaign journal with relevant information specificially set aside - don't know about your campaigns.

And yes, Harrigan on one hand having been "recently" abducted by the Chelians and Kroop's "been with him for years" will certainly collide on this score.


I don't see this as a problem. Harrigan goes for the deal because it would allow him the seat of power he seeks, giving him the strength of ruling power granted by Cheliax. Kroop and the others may have escaped capture and Harrigan sought them out after he was released. He might have concocted a story about escaping.

Kroop doesn't have to be loyal to Harrigan. Remember, he's a drunk and Harrigan takes him back because he needs a crew. Kroop takes a liking to the PCs so it's not a huge stretch for him mot jump ship to the Man's Promise when the PCs mutiny.

This all keeps it loose which will allow GMs to improvise as needed when their players do the unexpected. Don't make anything hard and fast so it becomes difficult to change on the fly.

vikingson wrote:

Prepping for coming session I reread the character descriptions. And.. encountered a possibly problematic setup :

Captain Harrigan has supposedly recently (adventure outline ) been captured by the Chelians. Given his current "few good men" status, that must have been in the last few weeks or months. After all, he is "re-equipping".
Now Kroop on the other hand has been with Barnanbas Harrigan for some time. The codex says three years, at least two of which he was utterly in Harrigan's debt...

Which would mean : Was Kroop along for the Chelian escapade ? Or was that even further in the past - but then why did it take Harrigan three years to "re-emerge" ? Given that Kroop is certainly not within the good graces of Harrigan, this seems like a dead giveaway for the further plot. The situation btw is similar for Mister Plugg, but he has only been along for a year. Which still is quite long.

The characters here abouts are thick with Kroop. They have asked quite a bit about Harrigan and his officers. But once they are "free" of Harrigan they are gonna look at ways to hurt him...

So.... how is the setup supposed to work ?

And yeah. "Pirates of the Fever Sea" seems to imply Kroop should be kept around.


Pathfinder Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
vikingson wrote:
Mistwalker wrote:

I didn't say that his ship was taken by a few Chelaxians. I said that he overcame the few that were guarding him, took their weapons, freed the rest of his crew and lead them in the retaking of the Wormwood.

Once a ship has been captures, those that capture it put a prize crew on board, put the old crew in chains, and sail the ship to a friendly (or home) port, where the prisoners are unloaded, extra crew are taken on, new stores loaded, repairs made and the ship put back into service. There are not hundreds in the prize crew.

What I have suggested above does not contradict what Rob McCreary said (well not yet)

Please : no lecturing on Historical Navy stuff...

if you capture a pirate (of this calibre.. yeah, only a Pirate Lord...) : you guard him well... because he was 16th level beforehand, too, and probably killed dozens of your finest.
One clamps that guy in iron as hard as you can, possibly even teleports him home (unconscious or not) and given what Cheliax is capable off, there are quite a number of really nasty things (usually even worse in player imagination) that some capable Chelians, especially Asmodean priests, and who really believes you would have those on a major naval expedition, can get a hold on to chastise him. Devils left, devils right and probably two more sitting straight on his shoulders ?

And yes, teleportation and devils were usually not available to historical navies. For the Chelians though : full check

...and prize crews were only used on "prizes" sent home for sale to ports while the warship sailed on, not for enemy vessels with high-ranking pirates aboard. Those were kept "in fleet", the crew shackled below, and sizable contingents aboard.
And high-ranking officers being separated from the men - not always done by stupid captains, much to their chargrin.

I must have missed the lecture I gave - I am not a historical navy buff/expert in any way shape or form. My comments were from a common sense and Golarion point of vue.

You seem to be saying that the Chelaxians sent out a powerful fleet to capture Harrigan - where are you getting that? Yes, the Chelaxian Navy captured him, but no where did I see any mention of a fleet. I was working under the assumption that it was one or two Chelaxian ships that captured him (a lucky shot that dropped a mast or cut the rudder cables could leave his ship a sitting duck - surrender or be sunk).

As for guarding him - once he is in shackles (strong ones), why would you treat this fighter any different from other prisoners, he does not have a meter on his forehead saying "Level 16". Even if he is the best swordsman in teh world, unarmed and shackled, he is almost helpless. To me, treating him vastly different because he is 16th level is metagaming.

As for teleportation - well most ships will likely not have an 11th level mage as part of the crew, nor will they have magic items that can teleport them. Even if by some chance that they do, will there be a safe place in range that they can teleport to?

Your comment about seperating the men from the officers, and the captain from everyone - it was done, they were just all still on the same ship (which is how he could make the deal, arrange the escape, acquire weapons, rescue his officers and then his men). If you are saying that he should have been on another ship, well the deal arranged for a stupid captain, which to their chagrin, Harrigan escaped.

Dark Archive

Also perhaps it is best to wait till a later book comes out that may actually go into detail about what happend.


Pathfinder Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Kevin Mack wrote:
Also perhaps it is best to wait till a later book comes out that may actually go into detail about what happend.

I have the impression that the OP is currently running the AP and cannot wait for the other parts of the AP to be published.

Dark Archive

Mistwalker wrote:
Kevin Mack wrote:
Also perhaps it is best to wait till a later book comes out that may actually go into detail about what happend.
I have the impression that the OP is currently running the AP and cannot wait for the other parts of the AP to be published.

Well just one of the hazerds of running an ap before you have all the books.

Shadow Lodge

vikingson wrote:


The problem ist : People asking and taking notes. And taking background notes on the guy who "abducted you" is far in the foreground. I guess it will be for most people. We are all carrying notebooks, plus there being a campaign journal with relevant information specificially set aside - don't know about your campaigns.
And yes, Harrigan on one hand having been "recently" abducted by the Chelians and Kroop's "been with him for years" will certainly collide on this score.

Why on earth are you telling the players that Harrigan was recently abducted by the Chelaxians? Don't tell them. No one needs to know that. None of his crew and definitely not the PC's at this point in the AP.

If you want to foreshadow the larger plotline do it with the dead Chelaxian scouts on the island at the end of book one - what are Chelaxian scouts doing this far south? And in book two - a pirate hunter ship this close to the shackles! Drop rumors in pubs and towns that Chelaxians had been putting out offers to any member of the Pirate Council willing to turn cloak.

THEN have Kroop remembers something through a drunken haze that Harrigan once mentioned he'd had a run in with Chelaxians just before he took that crew onto the Wormwood. Kroop can have been in the employ of Harrigan on one of his various ships for years without having been with Harrigan or on the specific ship that was captured.

There is no reason for Kroop or anyone to know anything about Harrigan's abuction and you are creating your own problem if you are telling the PC's this info for some reason.

Shadow Lodge

vikingson wrote:
Dane Pitchford wrote:
I'm not sure what you're getting at here, though. If you're speaking to the overarching plot and Harrigan's plans, I don't think anyone but Harrigan knows what they're working toward...so I doubt Kroop or any of the other officers would be able to reveal anything to the PCs that they shouldn't know yet.

You have read the entire "adventure outline" ?

** spoiler omitted **...

I have, and I think you missed the part of my post where I said that only Harrigan actually knows what's going on. The rest of the crew is pretty much in the dark, so...they -have- no information to give the PCs, except maybe that once they were captured by Chelaxians and only a handful of the original crew managed to escape.


sabedoriaclark wrote:


Why on earth are you telling the players that Harrigan was recently abducted by the Chelaxians? Don't tell them. No one needs to know that. None of his crew and definitely not the PC's at this point in the AP.

Because perhaps, players will ask ? They do around here. And Harrigan is (as far as they know) rather close to the BBEG, and of course they do investigate what he has done before, what he might be capable of etc. The boarding scene (coming up tomorrow) might do wonders, but Harrigan is not some "third-class-pirate"

Why wouldn't a player ?

Ran the session yesterday night. lot's of questions about Harrigan (amongst other things, they also really went for Longfarthing ) came up, including why he hangs out on a small and rather defunct ship, if he he is known as one of the Free Pirate Lords on the other hand. A Count of even Duke of "pirate society".

(Re-)solved for now it with Kroop having a blockout. Went to sleep the first time. They tried again. He went to sleep again. They then did tests (much to the cooking mate's chagrin who for a few days was left with the entire kitchen ) and are now aware that something is wrong with Kroop's mind, but not what precisely. They have an idea something is off, but not what precisely. Which indicated that Kroop might have some parasites and once they get means, will check on that. After that, things will be up for further verification.

Master Pluggs career came up as well, but we resorted to him having been around only for a short time( a few months) , reinforcing his meteoric drive to the top.

Dane Pitchford wrote:


I have, and I think you missed the part of my post where I said that only Harrigan actually knows what's going on. The rest of the crew is pretty much in the dark, so...they -have- no information to give the PCs, except maybe that once they were captured by Chelaxians and only a handful of the original crew managed to escape.

It does not matter what Harrigan knows and what everybody else does not. The problem is : quite a bunch of people know that he was taken alive. He was not executed. He miraculously broke out from a Chelian prison.... Do the math.

So once someone asks "who might be the traitor" - someone will say "Maybe.... the guy who just escaped ?"
Kroop being a defunct ally makes this even worse. And I mean "pirate betrayals" to the enemy fleet/whatver is as much a given as rum under moonlight. Please name me a recent movie/book where it does _not_ take place...

Shadow Lodge

vikingson wrote:


Because perhaps, players will ask ? They do around here.

There's almost no opportunity to interact with Harrigan and no other crew member knows anything about the situation so there's nothing to learn. And asking around about the captain should be a quick route to some heavy discipline from Master Scourge.

"vikingson' wrote:


It does not matter what Harrigan knows and what everybody else does not. The problem is : quite a bunch of people know that he was taken alive. He was not executed. He miraculously broke out from a Chelian prison.... Do the math.
So once someone asks "who might be the traitor" - someone will say "Maybe.... the guy who just escaped ?"

I still say you're creating your own problem here. There is no reason at this stage of the campaign for the party to have any idea there is a traitor to Cheliax. None. And where are you getting the idea that a lot of people know Harrigan was captured? On the contrary it seems that pretty much no one knows what Harrigan was up to right before the AP starts. That might create some suspicion, but has so many possible explanations that if your players are leaping to "he must have been captured by Cheliax and be planning to betray the Hurricane King!" then they've read the module and they're cheating. OR you fed them information they have no reason to have.

It's very simple. Players can ask all the questions they want, but since no one has any information to give them about Harrigan's betrayal there is no chance of them discovering this early. Just DO NOT tell them.


sabedoriaclark wrote:
It's very simple. Players can ask all the questions they want, but since no one has any information to give them about Harrigan's betrayal there is no chance of them discovering this early. Just DO NOT tell them.

Again : NOONE needs to know about the betrayal. Because that is irrelevant

It is absolutely enough that players get circumspect about Harrigan's escape from Chelia. Without most of his crew. With a few living survivors, but without the dozens of crewmen on his ship.... noone wonders whatever happened to those ? They don't have friends ? Or family ?

the guy escaped from Cheliax. They, in all probability, did not let him go - so what is up ? Betray some other pirate ? Kill someone ?

It does not really matter

And... let's lie to the players ? Because there is a very bad design choice on part of the author team or the editing of the adventure ?
Because the GM is the only valid eye into the gameworld he MUST never lie, except as part of a role. Befuddle, circumvent, illustrate carefully. Yes. But never lie. YMMV.

That being said.
A) They already killed Scourge. same as two other crew members all of it...was very simple. Another design failure of the AP. There obviously was very little idea how deadly a medieval ship can be. So far we had a yard crash on deck (several hurt) and the Wormwood losing an Anchor until day 16.

B) There is very little reason for a lot of the crew, after some initial questioning talking to Scourge or Plugg. Nevermind that "who is our captain and is the guy any good" is not even a "bad" question.

C) Obviously Richard Pett designing Kroop decided different from you. Kroop has been with Harrigan for three years, two as a virtual slave serving Harrigan's culinary pleasures. So it's either 3+ years in the past or something else must have intervened. Pett's choice.


Pathfinder Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
vikingson wrote:
And... let's lie to the players ? Because there is a very bad design choice on part of the author team or the editing of the adventure ?

I think that you have made a mountain out of a mole hill. Your "fix" for what you consider the problem, that of having Kroop (and I assume all the others that were captured with Harrigan) suddenly blackout whenever the discussion turns to the capture is putting a glowing and flashing arrow on the capture, saying that there is something here that is important for the PCs to find out about.

Harrigan, being seen escaping by his crew (and killing several Chelaxians while doing so), arming and then leading his crew in retaking the Wormwood is what legends are made of (hmm, sounds a lot like the exploits of PCs). There is nothing there to point to a betrayal.


I personally have a feeling that Harrigan himself may be under a Geas, and possibly found out a sort of loophole in the Geas that allows him to have some free will, but eventually will have to do whatever it is that he is told to do, and maybe one of the terms of the geas is he cannot divulge anything about the quest.

I'm not big on golarian lore yet, but as far as i know, the Chelaxian Empire is rather evil, and wouldn't be above using a Geas on someone to further their goals.

Shadow Lodge

vikingson wrote:


It is absolutely enough that players get circumspect about Harrigan's escape from Chelia. Without most of his crew. With a few living survivors, but without the dozens of crewmen on his ship.... noone wonders whatever happened to those ? They don't have friends ? Or family ?

the guy escaped from Cheliax. They, in all probability, did not let him go - so what is up ? Betray some other pirate ? Kill someone ?

It does not really matter

And... let's lie to the players ? Because there is a very bad design choice on part of the author team or the editing of the adventure ?
Because the GM is the only valid eye into the gameworld he MUST never lie, except as part of a role. Befuddle, circumvent, illustrate carefully. Yes. But never lie. YMMV.

Why do your players know that he escaped from Cheliax? Why do they even know he was interacting with Chelaxians in any way? You told them. Again, you've created your own problem. It isn't a matter of lying it's a matter of not giving them information they have no reason to know.

If they ask: where was Harrigan these past few months? the proper answer from any of the crew is: I don't know / none of your business / keep snooping around about the captain and you'll find yourself in the sweatbox.

As for the other things, it seems like you've already decided to allow your players to substantially derail the main plotline - which is fine if you're all having fun. It isn't a flaw of design that you are letting 1st-level unequipped press-ganged slaves run around the ship like they own it. Sounds like you've chosen to play it very different than written and that's cool, but no point in whining about it not being written to account for that choice.

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