Actually, I could absolutely see farmers revering Pharasma. Frankly, making the scythe Urgotha's favored weapon doesn't make any sense to me - I've house-ruled it over to Pharasma, largely in deference to Terry Pratchett. (Reaper Man, anyone?)
I'm also a fan of several older dead-ish gods - Curchanus and Thron in particular. (I'd love to play a Paladin of Thron, at some point.) As to Curchanus' views, I believe Endurance was one of his domains? If her were ever put in such a situation, I would see him as being the bemusedly put-upon husband figure...like Mr. Bennett, from Pride and Prejudice. A decent foil, actually, to Desna - who had a bit of teacher-crush, I think.
I'm all for some religious crossover, though - not everyone is the spitting image of their deity, after all. I'm sure there are some [b]great[/i] Cayden-dads out there, just as there are some awful ones. Also, Gozreh influences farmers as much as anyone - and Torag, whom I'd imagine can appreciate anyone who values hard work and responsibility. Calistria could represent strength of passions at large, rather than simple lust - which ties back in to Gozreh, if you'd like to take the word 'storm' metaphorically. Shelyn...Shelyn very likely has the most wide-ranging followers, and I bet she likes almost every one of them in turn - after all, who can't appreciate even one moment of art, or music, or beauty, in their own way?
Erastil is not a misogynist. He is a male chauvinist. While the two seem similar on paper, the practical reality of the two concepts are vastly different. Misogyny is the hatred of women, and nowhere is it suggested or implied that Erastil hates women in any manner.A male chauvinist like Erastil believes women are the "weaker sex," and therefore it is the duty of males to lay down their lives to protect them.
A misogynist like Asmodeus believes that women are the weaker sex, and therefore it is the duty of men to dominate them at all times and use women solely for their own pleasure.
And I hate both and want both to burn in the worst possible way.
That looks like a whole lot of refusing to see the forest because of obsession over a single tree.
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I have to take issue with that. There could be any number of reasons as to why he is not married.1. Perhaps he has not found a female goddess that he believes is worthy of being his wife. Perhaps no goddesses out there would want to be his wife. After all, there are not that many female goddesses, and none of them (however much they may personally like Erastil) seem to share his views on gender politics.
2. Perhaps, deep down, he realizes that his views are so archaic and he would not make the woman that he loves happy. Thus, he refuses to marry because he would not want to put anybody through the pain of being his wife.
3. Perhaps he is too busy with his responsibilities towards his followers to devote any time to romantic/familial pursuits.
4. Perhaps he did have a mortal or goddess wife at one point, but she either left him or died, and now he devotes himself solely to his work.
I personally tend towards the idea that Erastil had a wife who died at some point in the past. Maybe by Rovagug?
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I personally tend towards the idea that Erastil had a wife who died at some point in the past. Maybe by Rovagug?
As a god with a laser-like focus on family and fidelity, and suggested to be hesitant to 'move on' or change with the times, it would perhaps fit for him to be a widower, and unwilling to remarry.
As a god with a laser-like focus on family and fidelity, and suggested to be hesitant to 'move on' or change with the times, it would perhaps fit for him to be a widower, and unwilling to remarry.
Speaking as an Alaskan, there's a long tradition of old bachelors who think everybody (else) should get hitched.
To paraphrase and redirect an old Alaskan saying, when it comes to what Erastil has to offer female deities by way of matrimony, the odds are good but the goods are odd.
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I personally tend towards the idea that Erastil had a wife who died at some point in the past. Maybe by Rovagug?As a god with a laser-like focus on family and fidelity, and suggested to be hesitant to 'move on' or change with the times, it would perhaps fit for him to be a widower, and unwilling to remarry.
Such a background would certainly make Erastil much more sympathetic, and his ideas poignant instead of merely quaint. And I could indeed see Erastil's wife being among the fallen gods and goddesses who laid down their lives to save the multiverse from Rovagug's unending rage and hunger. Perhaps he is so adamant about his followers having to protect women because of his feelings of guilt, and the belief that he failed to save his own wife.
Maybe when his wife was alive Erastil was a much kinder and friendlier God who was far more fair-minded and equality-oriented than he is now. However, after having seen the only person he truly loved killed, he turned away from his old beliefs. Instead, he would come to believe that the strong should protect the weak under every circumstance...even if it means that the "weak" must accept a subservient role.
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Now, as to further the discussion, what would Erastil's views be towards those that are unable to have children, due to infertility? Personally, I don't think that he would be "You suck, because no babies for you!" rather he would be "You can still support your community! Go forth, adopt, gather, protect!"
Were Erastil Lawful Neutral, I think it would be the former. Since he is Lawful Good, and cares deeply about the wellbeing of individuals, not just the community as a whole, I think his view would be the latter.
I think Erastil would view infertile people, as well as gay romantic couples, as being people who can essentially "pick up the slack" of rural communities. After all, on the world of Golarion, a violent death is a common occurence (especially in the country) and thus orphans abound. Someone has to look after them, and I think Erastil would expect and encourage people who are not in a position to have children to raise the orphaned offspring of others as their own, teach them proper morals, skills, and provide them with a warm loving home.
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Damn, now I want to give Erastil a big ole hug.
Has anyone thought of Erastil representing a trinity/triple god of masculinity?
(This is assuming he did have a wife at some point, or he has mortal proxies that he vicariously lives through who raise families then perish, with Erastil taking careful measures to ensure no Faerunian divinity problems spill over.)
The Hunter: Young bachelor out in the forest looking to claim what is his, both in a hunting and sexual sense. He has to be fast, he has to be strong if he wants to flourish.
The Father: The hunt is over, and the strong father gathers his family and protects it, teaching his children and defending his wife.
The Patriarch: The children have grown to be parents themselves, and the conservative elderly patriarch teaches what he can, delights in his grandchildren and extended family before he moves on. This is where the Senility domain kicks in and all the conservative stuff flows in.
The problem could then be after Erastil's triple god phase he's now moved into a fourth stage - divinity, which has mixed all these periods of life together and resulted in a doctrine that is outdated and confused in places. While deities like Cayden remain in one stage of development (young heroes yeah! party party party!) Erastil is stuck living an entire human lifetime all at once, and his views are mixed as a result.
That looks like a whole lot of refusing to see the forest because of obsession over a single tree.
And what forest would that be exactly? I already said that someone else would take his place as a deity and even if they didn't, every area of concern he covers is also covered by others.
I live in a conservative area and be aware that in my ears you are calling for the murder of most of the people I know, male and female alike. Probably you are a young and foolish zealot who has never seen a corpse rather than the mass murderer you pretend to be but be aware of what you say.
Again, there's a difference between mortals and deities. With mortals, I still despise the belief and do everything in my power to fight it, but at the same time those mortals will, inevitably, die, and with education and proof that their beliefs are wrong, hopefully the next generation will move beyond that. With a deity, that simply doesn't work - they have to be removed by force or they won't ever be removed at all.
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See I'm a pinko commie liberal yuck myself, so imagine what it takes to make me raise an eyebrow and consider someone's crusade for freedom to be a danger to freedom itself.
And I am an atheist, and I find the concept of deicide of a God who has done so much good for the world, (especially for so petty a reason) to be patently immoral. It is not even a "crusade for freedom." It is not as though DrowVampyre is on a quest to liberate slaves or free actual women from being under the heel of some Taliban-esque patriarchy. She just wants to kill Erastil because he holds to some ideas that she finds offensive, and she is simply using the fact that he is a God to justify his murder. That's it.
And I am an atheist, and I find the concept of deicide of a God who has done so much good for the world, (especially for so petty a reason) to be patently immoral. It is not even a "crusade for freedom." It is not as though DrowVampyre is on a quest to liberate slaves or free actual women from being under the heel of some Taliban-esque patriarchy. She just wants to kill Erastil because he holds to some ideas that she finds offensive, and she is simply using the fact that he is a God to justify his murder. That's it.
No, because he promotes those ideas, spreads them to the mortal world, and causes them to become standard practice, if you will. If he kept his ideas to himself and didn't try to spread them, I still wouldn't like him, but frankly I wouldn't care what happened to him.
And yes, if he wasn't a god, again it would be less of an issue - how, precisely, do you suggest someone remove the sexism without removing Erastil, when he apparently is still a sexist bastard after ages of not only evidence from the goddesses and mortal women he has to have seen that he's wrong, but personal experience with the same? This isn't a god that changes his mind, clearly, and because he's immortal (and even more, has worshippers), those ideas will never go away unless he goes away too.
Honestly, I'm baffled that so many people are arguing for sexism, here. I totally understand not believing as I do and wanting to kill Erastil, but I truly can't believe how many seem to think "oh, yeah, no big deal, he's sexist and actively oppresses women but that's ok because he's nice in this other way!". I'm sure Stalin was nice in ways too - that doesn't make him not a monster.
Honestly, I'm baffled that so many people are arguing for sexism, here. I totally understand not believing as I do and wanting to kill Erastil, but I truly can't believe how many seem to think "oh, yeah, no big deal, he's sexist and actively oppresses women but that's ok because he's nice in this other way!". I'm sure Stalin was nice in ways too - that doesn't make him not a monster.
Not many are really arguing for sexism, per se. Rather, a modest bump on an otherwise excellent moral character shouldn't be a death sentence.
Of course, the comparison with Stalin pretty much Godwin's the thread (albeit on the other totalitarian dictatorship direction) anyway.
Not many are really arguing for sexism, per se. Rather, a modest bump on an otherwise excellent moral character shouldn't be a death sentence.
Of course, the comparison with Stalin pretty much Godwin's the thread (albeit on the other totalitarian dictatorship direction) anyway.
A "modest bump"? You think sexism is a "modest bump" - that would explain why it's not a big deal to you. Again, though, I suggest this: replace all his sexism with racism. Erastil believes that caucasians (or whatever other race you want to put in, but since he's Ulfen, caucasians would seem most fitting) should always be in charge, and non-caucasians never should and should always defer to them. Is that still a "modest bump"?
A "modest bump"? You think sexism is a "modest bump" - that would explain why it's not a big deal to you. Again, though, I suggest this: replace all his sexism with racism. Erastil believes that caucasians (or whatever other race you want to put in, but since he's Ulfen, caucasians would seem most fitting) should always be in charge, and non-caucasians never should and should always defer to them. Is that still a "modest bump"?
The fact remains that we're not talking about racism. Not all -isms are equal or equivalent.
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The fact remains that we're not talking about racism. Not all -isms are equal or equivalent.
A "modest bump"? You think sexism is a "modest bump" - that would explain why it's not a big deal to you. Again, though, I suggest this: replace all his sexism with racism. Erastil believes that caucasians (or whatever other race you want to put in, but since he's Ulfen, caucasians would seem most fitting) should always be in charge, and non-caucasians never should and should always defer to them. Is that still a "modest bump"?
...You seriously think sexism isn't as bad as racism? It's exactly the same thing, except for the qualifier that gets you taking the bad effects, and with sexism that bad is being applied to half the population. It makes me very sad to think that "sexism isn't as bad as racism" must be a widespread view among the posters in this thread.
I was going to avoid lighting any fires myself, cause, well, I try not to, but I've gotta give a little bite, here. Hopefully not enough to get hooked. : /
Drow may not have presented herself in the best light, and her youthful ferocity may be a bit oversimplified, but I'm seeing a lot of hate against her which isn't strictly justified. Who flames the flamers, eh? You lot seem to be missing that she's actually kinda got a point - my grandpa can be a sexist dolt, but we all just shrug and chuckle. With a god and, consequently, a Dogma, we're talking about the philosophy at large. The same philosophy which has been so clearly detrimental to our own world on more than one occasion. Could some people interpret that well, and live well whilst worshiping this guy? Sure - and lots of Asmodeus-worshiping Chelish folk are decent types, as well. You know, mostly.
I don't suppose that Drow is, in person, likely to burn down the churches of any particularly offensive religions - though she'd certainly have her pick. In game, it's a bit different - there are lots of gods, each representative of some ethics, not at all particularly balanced, and certainly at odds. Their clergy, if anything, are worse. The games we play tend toward worlds full of overzealous paladins and highly questionable ethics - which we accept, regularly. If it suits her philosophies to make this a primary issue in her games, I don't actually see any moral difficulties - she isn't a bad person for it. If it suits her to despise a philosophy which she very likely has to contend with every other bloody day of her life - it's often more pervasive than we give it credit for, and certainly more obvious to woman than men - that doesn't make her a bad person, either.
To Drow I'd only say, try not to let it take up your entire focus, as you miss a lot that way. Bank the flames, eh? You can direct them better that way, anyhow. Also, anyone having that one major philosophical sticking point - be it feminism, or liberalism, or organic farming - can become a fairly dull character if they're not careful. Still, you've got some support...best I could offer.
I was going to avoid lighting any fires myself, cause, well, I try not to, but I've gotta give a little bite, here. Hopefully not enough to get hooked. : /
Drow may not have presented herself in the best light, and her youthful ferocity may be a bit oversimplified, but I'm seeing a lot of hate against her which isn't strictly justified. Who flames the flamers, eh? You lot seem to be missing that she's actually kinda got a point - my grandpa can be a sexist dolt, but we all just shrug and chuckle. With a god and, consequently, a Dogma, we're talking about the philosophy at large. The same philosophy which has been so clearly detrimental to our own world on more than one occasion. Could some people interpret that well, and live well whilst worshiping this guy? Sure - and lots of Asmodeus-worshiping Chelish folk are decent types, as well. You know, mostly.
I don't suppose that Drow is, in person, likely to burn down the churches of any particularly offensive religions - though she'd certainly have her pick. In game, it's a bit different - there are lots of gods, each representative of some ethics, not at all particularly balanced, and certainly at odds. Their clergy, if anything, are worse. The games we play tend toward worlds full of overzealous paladins and highly questionable ethics - which we accept, regularly. If it suits her philosophies to make this a primary issue in her games, I don't actually see any moral difficulties - she isn't a bad person for it. If it suits her to despise a philosophy which she very likely has to contend with every other bloody day of her life - it's often more pervasive than we give it credit for, and certainly more obvious to woman than men - that doesn't make her a bad person, either.
To Drow I'd only say, try not to let it take up your entire focus, as you miss a lot that way. Bank the flames, eh? You can direct them better that way, anyhow. Also, anyone having that one major philosophical sticking point - be it feminism, or...
Thanks Michael, I appreciate it, and I'm glad someone else at least sees the problem - as I said, i don't expect everyone to believe as I do that Erastil deserves to die for it, what baffles me is how many people act like this isn't a big deal.
And lest you think me completely one-dimensional...it's not my entire focus, nor that of my characters, just that this thread is about Erastil and not about, say...the Whispering Way, or evil Runelords, or orc hordes. This has actually only been the focus of, I believe, one campaign I've been a part of - in other instances, it's something I do if I happen to run across it.
That village you're supposed to save from the orcs is Erastilan? Ok, sure, save them...but sacrifice the church to save more of the rest of the town, and if anyone says anything about "thank Erastil you've come!" make damn sure to correct them and try to sway them to a better faith (Abadar, Gozreh, Sarenrae, etc. - something suitable for the settlement). If you see sexist practices, make helping the town contingent on immediately abolishing that, and with the promise that you'll be back/scrying/whatever, so if they don't, you'll know...and if you could save their village, you can end it too. That sort of thing. Basically...I treat it the way I treat the demon cults and such. If I come across it, try my best to end it, but I'm usually on some other quest already, not specifically seeking them out.
Hmmm hypothetical for you.....
Prostitution is legal in FRPG town.... The local pimp is a worshiper of Abadar is very pious and his business is successful due to Abadars favour, while he does not beat up his girls as that would be "damaging the goods" he does intimidate the girls and drives a hard bargain for the percentage of their earnings. Abadar has no problem with this as the pimp is not breaking any laws and he is making a profit.
Erastil on the other hand is furious - these young women are being exploited, they should be with their families or starting a family of their own and should be benifiting of the warm love and support of a family so they can follow their hearts and enrich the community.
Erastil curses those that visit the bawdy house, and the Erastilian Priestess pickets the bawdy house. Erastilian worshipers offer to take in the young ladies (and men) and teach the a trade or craft to give them options to make the community a better place.
The priest of Abadar becomes upset at the interferance with profit, and because he has powerful "friends" in the nobility (he has envested in their enterprises and can pull money out at any time) he asks the to intervene and the town guard move in to close the church of Erastil.
The majority of towns folk worship Erastil, they use the school staffed and run by the Priestess, the female hunts master and her husband the trapper (both minor priests of Erastil) keep the peoples farms clear of goblins and other pests live in the temple, they train the young men and women of the town how to defend themselves, they teach respect for each gender and that the centre of the family is the mother. They teach that a family and partnership (no mater the genders involved male/male female/female male/female) is the strongest most sacred force in the world.
DV the adventurer turns up helps burn down the church down with glee. So what if the Priestess and her husband die in the fire they are just perpetuating the patriarchy, good gods like Abadar are more worthy of worshiping.
That winter when DV is killing some monsters let's say depopulating a goblin tribe of its male warriors...
The town no longer has the favour of Erastil the children are out on the streets as they can not afford to pay the school fees for the Abadarian school, the crops are failing because most of the farmers have moved away in sadness. half starved the town is a ripe target for the hobgoblin raiders that they don't notice because the rangers moved to somewhere where they won't be persecuted .
DV wanders back though the smoking ruins of the town wondering what happened.
DVs problem is she has fixated on a poorly worded and interpreted passage about a particular god. She sees this in black and white only and people who only see things in black and white and not holistically are fundamentally dangerous.
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No, because he promotes those ideas, spreads them to the mortal world, and causes them to become standard practice, if you will. If he kept his ideas to himself and didn't try to spread them, I still wouldn't like him, but frankly I wouldn't care what happened to him.
You have yet to provide us any instances of actual oppression. And by "oppression," I mean actually forcing people to do things against their will, not merely encouraging a way of life that you find disagreeable.
And yes, if he wasn't a god, again it would be less of an issue - how, precisely, do you suggest someone remove the sexism without removing Erastil, when he apparently is still a sexist bastard after ages of not only evidence from the goddesses and mortal women he has to have seen that he's wrong, but personal experience with the same? This isn't a god that changes his mind, clearly, and because he's immortal (and even more, has worshippers), those ideas will never go away unless he goes away too.
Wow. How do you "remove sexism without removing Erastil"? What an utterly totalitarian question. You believe that by killing a God you would somehow eliminate the concept and problems of sexism and socially engineer a perfect world? You think that by Erastil going away, people would stop preferring traditional gender roles? That men would stop wishing to be breadwinners, or that women would stop wanting to be homemakers? I really doubt it.
What I find most insulting about this view is that you seem to think that the people of Golarion are a bunch of drooling, mindless children who are so incapable of making moral decisions that they need someone like you to decide for them in the most destructive way possible: By killing the beings who have selflessly watched over and protected them. You keep saying that the people of Golarion should turn to gods more worthy of worship. I'm sorry, but worthy by whose standards? Did it ever occur to you that many of the women worshipers of Erastil might just prefer him to the other gods and goddesses of Golarion? Are you able to understand that there are people out there who are just as intelligent as you are, and who completely and fully comprehend your ideology as well as others, but still prefer their own way of life?
You really want to know how you can possibly eliminate sexism in any real sense? De-legitimize it. Show that the concept of sexism is founded upon a lie, and set an example showing the truth of your beliefs. Shame those of good character for ever having held to such views. And as for Erastil, why care what he thinks? Just show his followers that on that particular fundamental point, Erastil is wrong, and those particular teachings should be ignored.
Honestly, I'm baffled that so many people are arguing for sexism, here. I totally understand not believing as I do and wanting to kill Erastil, but I truly can't believe how many seem to think "oh, yeah, no big deal, he's sexist and actively oppresses women but that's ok because he's nice in this other way!".
Oh, I am not arguing for sexism. I am just not about to trade one form of bigotry for an even worse form of bigotry. But nice try trying to subtly paint those who disagree with you as being sexist/promoters of sexism. Just because many of us argue with your hyperbolic statements and overreactions does not mean people on this board are suddenly defending the concept of sexism. We are simply opposing you.
Especially when you resort to such statements as the following:
I'm sure Stalin was nice in ways too - that doesn't make him not a monster.
Hmmm...comparing a mildly sexist god to a man who tortured, starved and executed millions of people (oh, and Stalin was a sexist as well, reversing many of the progressive policies of gender equality that Lenin had put into place). I would cattily say "hyperbole much?" but this goes beyond hyperbole, because you are comparing a minor sexist with a man who was both a major sexist AND mass-murderer. It is a comparison that does not warrant being taken seriously.
I probably shouldn't... But, I guess I'll bite.
I don't suppose that Drow is, in person, likely to burn down the churches of any particularly offensive religions - though she'd certainly have her pick. In game, it's a bit different - there are lots of gods, each representative of some ethics, not at all particularly balanced, and certainly at odds.
I have never seen any evidence, in setting, module, or adventure path that Erastil is actively forcing people to worship him, or obey his tenets/dogma. And as you say, there are plenty of options...
I personally find it hard to accept that any deity (or at least a good one) would be so close-minded.
Do you really want a Golarion where everyone jives with your point of view? Where the good guys are all clearly identifiable with their white hats and folksy charm, and the bad guys are obvious with their black hats and goatees? Is it really so hard to believe that a well-intentioned, intelligent being could hold a different world view than yours?
Nor, to reiterate, am I arguing that he shouldn't exist in the pantheon (from an IRL sense, I mean, as in "Paizo shouldn't have him in there"), as again, I rather like having a "good" church/deity to oppose and attack.
Perfect. However...
See I'm a pinko commie liberal yuck myself, so imagine what it takes to make me raise an eyebrow and consider someone's crusade for freedom to be a danger to freedom itself.
All the vitriolic hatred you've spat at Erastil is turning away even the people who agree with your point of view. Just consider this... and consider how likely you are to win over those who are indifferent or who oppose you...
Not to mention that burning churches is not exactly going to change much. Gods in Golarion don't draw power from followers. The only thing going around and burning churches is going to do is label you a criminal, and probably cause most of the non-evil gods to forsake you. People are not going to consider your reasoned argument against misogyny as you stand in front of the building that was a cornerstone of their life.
If I was DM and a character did that, they should expect extreme difficulty in moving around civilized towns, widespread distrust from people if they are recognized, and at the very least Paladins/Inquisitors of the Erastil faith, various local law enforcement, and bounty hunters constantly hounding them. And if they were a little bit too successful at what they were doing, I would expect allied outsiders as well as the Red Mantis cult going after them. They would be dead LONG before they put a dint in Erastil's following.
Im a green leftist secular humanist and the son of a Germaine Greer following, the Female eunuch reading, Hellen Ready listening radical feminist. I find DV extreme and I am glad she is not in my game.
You have yet to provide us any instances of actual oppression. And by "oppression," I mean actually forcing people to do things against their will, not merely encouraging a way of life that you find disagreeable.
Considering we have far less to go on with him than we do, say, Asmodeus, but one of the things we do have is his view on the matter (which is presented as pretty absolute), I'm not sure what you expect me to "provide". I can't very well walk down the street and find a random worshipper of Erastil here.
Wow. How do you "remove sexism without removing Erastil"? What an utterly totalitarian question. You believe that by killing a God you would somehow eliminate the concept and problems of sexism and socially engineer a perfect world? You think that by Erastil going away, people would stop preferring traditional gender roles? That men would stop wishing to be breadwinners, or that women would stop wanting to be homemakers? I really doubt it.
No. But I believe you can't remove it without removing him - he's not the sole source, but he is a source, and one that pretty much demands it, from the information we've been given about him. So no, killing him won't do away with sexism (obviously - Asmodeus is sexist too, after all, as are plenty of other people/entities/groups).
You really want to know how you can possibly eliminate sexism in any real sense? De-legitimize it. Show that the concept of sexism is founded upon a lie, and set an example showing the truth of your beliefs. Shame those of good character for ever having held to such views. And as for Erastil, why care what he thinks? Just show his followers that on that particular fundamental point, Erastil is wrong, and those particular teachings should be ignored.
Because his followers are going to stop doing what he, a god, tells them? Yeah, right. There are plenty of examples already in Golarion that show his views as utterly wrong. It's great that they're there, but clearly it doesn't make a difference, to him or to his followers. If it made a difference to his followers, they wouldn't be his followers. At best the church and communities would reflect that - they don't, they cleave to his beliefs. That doesn't work - it's not enough to show the folly of sexism, not when the source is a god that communicates directly to them.
Oh, I am not arguing for sexism. I am just not about to trade one form of bigotry for an even worse form of bigotry. But nice try trying to subtly paint those who disagree with you as being sexist/promoters of sexism. Just because many of us argue with your hyperbolic statements and overreactions does not mean people on this board are suddenly defending the concept of sexism. We are simply opposing you.
I'm not trying to paint those who disagree with me as sexists - not all of you. Argue with my methods and "overreactions" all you want. I expected that. However, some people who you say are "simply opposing me" have outright expressed and/or strongly implied that they don't have a major problem with sexism. That it is a minor issue, and effectively not worth ending. That belief, I do take issue with, and I can't imagine how anyone could possibly not see it as sexist/promoting sexism.
And I wouldn't call Erastil a "minor sexist" - just because he isn't as bad as some doesn't mean he's minor, and by virtue of being a god and having people worship him devoutly, his words and opinions carry far more weight than you seem to be suggesting (which is why I picked Stalin - cult of personality is the closest thing I could come up with at that moment to relate to without using a real world religion).
I have never seen any evidence, in setting, module, or adventure path that Erastil is actively forcing people to worship him, or obey his tenets/dogma. And as you say, there are plenty of options...
I haven't seen any evidence of lots of the demon lords/archdevils/etc. actively forcing people to worship them either - does that mean we shouldn't try to stop them?
All the vitriolic hatred you've spat at Erastil is turning away even the people who agree with your point of view. Just consider this... and consider how likely you are to win over those who are indifferent or who oppose you...
I highly doubt that they actually agree with my point of view in the first place, then - if they did, it would infuriate them just as much as it does me, and while the methods they take to try to put an end to the problem might differ from mine, they would still be taking methods. I don't know how Gorbacz feels about it, truth be told, but this previous comment:
I think that most of Erastil outrage comes from the fact that people are used to classic deity tropes with Good gods being cuddly, fuzzy and politically correct. Then along comes a guy who almost looks like a totally stereotypical benevolent woodlands hunter deity until OH WAIT HE WANTS ME IN THE KITCHEN BIRTHING BABIES OHNOZ!
makes me think that he doesn't consider sexism a big deal.
Not to mention that burning churches is not exactly going to change much. Gods in Golarion don't draw power from followers. The only thing going around and burning churches is going to do is label you a criminal, and probably cause most of the non-evil gods to forsake you. People are not going to consider your reasoned argument against misogyny as you stand in front of the building that was a cornerstone of their life.
If I was DM and a character did that, they should expect extreme difficulty in moving around civilized towns, widespread distrust from people if they are recognized, and at the very least Paladins/Inquisitors of the Erastil faith, various local law enforcement, and bounty hunters constantly hounding them. And if they were a little bit too successful at what they were doing, I would expect allied outsiders as well as the Red Mantis cult going after them. They would be dead LONG before they put a dint in Erastil's following.
No, but assisting another deity/power in..."removing" him would change quite a bit, at least in the sense that he wouldn't be there anymore. It's not like my characters cavort through the streets with torches openly flinging them at his churches - like I said a few posts ago, it's more an...undermine his faith and refuse to stop the bad things from happening to him, make it very clear that you don't affiliate with him and take offense at the very thought of it, make help contingent on changing their views (and hopefully abandoning him).
More direct action can be taken, sure, but it's all about the time and place. Better to destroy their confidence in him as well so they'll turn to someone else, and support some other deity/planar power in any attempt to kill him and take over his portfolio. Unless you happen to be an epic level wizard or something, then you might be able to just directly do something, maybe.
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Im a green leftist secular humanist and the son of a Germaine Greer following, the Female eunuch reading, Hellen Ready listening radical feminist. I find DV extreme and I am glad she is not in my game.
I'll gladly accept the "extreme" label if not nodding my head and going "oh, the sexism is ok because he's a decent guy in these other ways" is what's considered not-extreme. Hell, I'll accept it anyway, but I would hope that if you consider yourself a feminist you would, whether you agree with my methods or not, at the very least agree that he is wrong, he should be opposed on that point (even if no other), and someone needs to do something to make a change happen.
And just to be clear...I do hope everyone that's arguing with me knows I'm not talking about doing anything of the sort IRL, even if I despise sexism in all its forms just as strongly IRL as in game, right? Because things change a lot, at least as far as I'm concerned, when you have real, tangible proof that Erastil is a god, definitely exists and can be shown to do so, and believes these things and commands/strongly encourages/whatever his followers to believe the same and act on those beliefs.
Now, as for your earlier hypothetical...
Firstly, if the pimp is forcing/coercing the prostitutes, he needs to be taken care of, legal or not. And if it's a legitimate business he shouldn't need to do that, just treat them like employees in any other business.
Secondly, the picture you paint of the townsfolk makes them not very good Erastilians, at least on that point - they're teaching respect (and presumably equality) for both genders, and apparently matriarchy which is totally against Erastil's views.
Thirdly, if we make them "good Erastilians" instead of this...strangely lip-servicey Erastilian community that doesn't actually follow his ways in a pretty major aspect, again, I wouldn't just randomly go in and burn everything down, but let's say those goblins are attacking - where am I gonna not bother defending? The church. I'm still helping the town, just doing it with a different focus, and making sure the townsfolk know that hey, I'm not Erastilian and resent the old bastard, and hopefully they'll decide "hey, she saved us when Erastil didn't/wouldn't...maybe we should switch to her deity instead (or some other deity)!" Not terribly likely, perhaps, but maybe, and even if not, the church's influence is weakened and hopefully another one will move into its place (also, this is a town large enough to have multiple churches and nobility actively involved, so I think this town is more under Abadar's purview anyway, no?).
Fourthly...I wouldn't randomly depopulate a goblin tribe of (apparently exclusively) male warriors, specifically - it would depend on the context, but if I'm out adventuring against them, sure, I'll go after all of them, whether they have dangly bits or not. Apparently the farmers have left because they can't farm without Erastil's favor, so...it's probably becoming a trade town, if Abadar's church was influential enough to have the (seemingly important) nobility's ear. Still, farmers can farm without Erastil's favor - pretty sure Rahadoum and Cheliax both farm perfectly well without it.
Local rangers moved away because they felt persecuted, apparently? Maybe some female rangers (who, if this is a "good Erastilian community", would have been at least as persecuted as these rangers are...for some reason...I'm not seeing any persecution going on here, their church is just gone from the area) who didn't want to have people trying to browbeat them into being "good little wives and mothers" will move in. Well, again, this town has important nobility - they'll have military forces of some extent or other at their command, including scouts, and if hobgoblins are nearby, I'm sure those scouts are out keeping an eye on them.
Being that this is a sizable town with the nobles, (formerly) multiple temples, and presumably the support structure to maintain that kind of place, the hobgoblin raiders are going to have to be pretty sizable in number to be able to get past the forces a place like that can call up. If the scouts fail, then sure, but the rangers could just have easily failed (scouts would likely be rangers too, by the way).
But hey, I'm all ears if you have a better way to get rid of Erastil's sexism in a timely manner. Keeping in mind, of course, that simply providing examples that he's wrong doesn't work, and that he'll never die unless killed, y'know.
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I am starting to think this discussion has run its course and is going nowhere.
Basically, once it left the first page it became one person calling the death of Lawful Good god due to his sexist views (which the very developer who wrote the book on Erastil even said are not as extreme as some people believe. His exact words are even,"If his attitudes about women are sexist, then so are his attitudes about men.") Everyone else has been trying to convince them of how wrong this extreme veiw is for... about 100 posts.
While I am not trying to insulting, nor do I like to call people names, but...
Successful troll is successful?
Can someone just lock this discussion and end this madness for what appears to be the second time in these message boards?
Or at least drop the pointless discussion on why a god needs to die for having an old fashioned, very conservative, and in a way backwards philosophy? I was hoping to read more ideas on how he would handle childless couples, what exactly he would mean by "Head of Household," and if adventurers really can be followers.
Edit: I am also really curious as to his views on homosexuality. I personally think he would be against it, but I haven't seen any evidence of such.
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Hey Caleb, I'll give you my two bits.
On childess couples, I think his followers would see it as trial or curse, like having a crippled limb or something. It doesn't make you bad, just very unfortunate. You're missing out of one of life's greatest joys. This being if the couple has been married for a while, or word is going around that they are trying to have children, but it hasn't worked out. For a younger couple though, I'm seeing lots of 'So, Bob. What's the hold up?/You shouldn't keep waiting Lois' The idea of just not having children would be weird. You want to deny yourself happiness and prosperity?
I see Erastil having much the same take on it. Children a blessing, joy, and duty. If you can't have them, I will remove the obstacle. If you don't want them, there is something wrong with you. Not wrong in the 'evil abomination!' sense, but wrong in the way a established farmer with a large family would react to the idea of someone studying contemporary dance, moving to the city, and living single in a bohemian apartment. More of the, 'he'll come to a bad end, mark my words./Humph. Well. You go and do that, but the door's open when you come to your senses.'
On head of household, just that. The head, the leader. Man's job is to protect and provide for his home. If the family needs more money, it is the man's responsibility to do the extra work needed. If there is a problem, he is the one who makes sure it is resolved. All external complaints are directed to him, and he handles them. Also, if there is disagreement between husband and wife on what should be done, it is the husband's job to make the final decision and be responsible for it. First among equals in the home. Face of the family outside of it.
On adventures, yes and no. (Yep, classic non-answer.) For a lot of the adventure paths, there is plenty of justification for a follower of Erastil to become and stay involved. RotRL has goblins, cultists, and giants threatening your town, which are legitimate things to fight against. The rest of the adventure, for the most part, has adversaries that threaten the safety and stability of the whole region, which is also something worth fighting. Likewise, Kingmaker has taming a region for people to be safe. Even Carrion Crow starts by honoring a dying man's request.
However, it's harder with homebrew/willy-nilly adventures. An Erastilite does not go gallivanting off to farway places to fight a nameless and almost forgotten evil that hasn't troubled anyone in living memory. Journey to distant mountains to stop the mad wizard who is responsible for almost destroying your town twice and has caused suffering to befall the people of this region. Yes. Journey to Rappan Athuk to plunder the ancient dungeon and contend against the eternal forces of Orcus that really haven't done anything, yet. No.
Homosexuality, I'm saying against. First, it means you can't have/bear children. Second, it means someone isn't fulfilling their role/a role isn't getting filled. Two men doesn't work because they should both be leading the home and protecting, so effectively there isn't a leader, and no one would make the home worth leading and protecting. Two women doesn't work because, again, nobody's in charge and no one is there stand between the wilderness and the home. If on person takes the other gender's role, then you're not doing yours/you're doing it wrong.
Not sure what his views on polygamy would be, probably questions about the sanity of the man who thinks he is enough for two women, and dims views on things not being proper. 1/1 not 1/2, or 1/3 or 1/4! And polyandry is straight(Is this the right strait?) out!
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I have read this whole thread and agree with CalebTG.
Here's my two bits.
On the childless couples, I think any such couples after trying everything they could (folk remedies, church help, praying, whatever), would adopt. Or even before that, since the community should try to provide for those orphaned with those who "need" children. Such communities would be small and close knit anyway, so whether they are blood related or not they would be in the same community.
We are after all talking about a faith of bringing civilization to wilderness. I would expect a lot of frontier homes to be destroyed, creating alot of orphans, widows, widowers, and childless couples.
Head of Household, you could apply the IRS's meaning if you like, which in game terms is meaningless. I take it to mean who is responsible (to the community) for the family at the home, which would be the father/husband or if unable the wife/mother and then the children in order. Assuming there are no additional family members such as grandparents, aunts, uncles, great-aunts, great-uncles, cousins, step-parents, step-children, grandchildren, great-grandparents, and assorted in-laws and adopted "grandparents, aunts, uncles, great-aunts, great-uncles, cousins, grandchildren, great-grandparents and assorted in-laws.
So, unless you want to make up a chain of command for every family in a fantasy RPG, then just go with "the most respected family member who is responsible for the family to the community".
Can adventurers be followers? Yes. That seems to be the whole point of the Kingmaker AP. (Of which in our game I'm the Queen and single and Erastil is the official religion!) In other games, I don't see why adventurers can't be followers.
As long as there is some threat to the community from the outside that doesn't take the party far from the community should work fine. That should include most published adventures and most home-brewed ones if you think about it.
Homosexuality, I'd say no and yes. No, because it's not very traditional. Yes, it would be normal for a pair (M or F) to take in / adopt others in need.
Polygamy and polyandry I would rule out.
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He might have actually allowed polygamy at some point, seeing as there have been comments about how he has actually changed with the times. However, that would have been a long, long time ago and there would have been a need for it at the time. Polygamy works when there are fewer men, the population is small, and those men practicing it are able to support their wives. However, once the population is up high enough there are more men to take on the responsibility of head of household, and thus it is no longer needed. In current times in Golarion I imagine he would teach that men should love only one woman, and that be his wife.
In fact, that leads into another question. What are his views on per-marital sex? He clearly and unquestionably wants people to be married. Would risking bringing children into the world before the commitment of marriage be inappropriate in his eyes? I think that it would be. His old fashioned nature fits the idea of both man and woman staying chaste until marriage, staying true to one another, and encouraging their children to do the same.
I don't have time to explore my next questions. How does he feel about divorce? What about widows/widowers?
I like what you said about all the topics I brought up. I wish I had time to comment on them all, but the polygamy point sparked my thoughts the most and I have to go to work. I think the head of household part seems to be the biggest hang up people have with him, so I would like to come back later and comment on what I think that means from a Lawful Good point of view.
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Can adventurers be followers? Yes. That seems to be the whole point of the Kingmaker AP. (Of which in our game I'm the Queen and single and Erastil is the official religion!)
That's one thing that I think hasn't been touched on, really, is how absolute some gods are, or are not.
Erastil has a female cleric who believes that the original faith of Erastil was matriarchally-dominated, and is actively preaching that belief, and yet receives spells from Erastil, who apparently isn't that all that bothered by her preachings.
*Some* gods, like Pharasma, are draconian, and explicitly forbid certain sorts of behavior from their followers. Most, on the other hand, seem pretty flexible. One cleric of Calistria might be CG, and believe that the proper way to rescue a woman from an abusive relationship is to empower her to escape, give her some money or secure her a job in a safe location, etc. A CN cleric of Calistria might believe that empowering her to strike against her oppressor and cause him harm, terror or even to help her *kill* him (and cover it up so she gets away with it) to be appropriate. A CE cleric of Calistria might say that she should have rescued herself, and, by allowing herself to be oppressed without knifing the creep in his sleep, she's not only allowed herself to come to harm, she's enabled that sort of power dynamic, not just for herself, but in general, and that *she* deserves to be punished, along with the oppressor!
And all three of them, despite very different 'solutions' to the problem, might find Calistria nodding approvingly.
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I'm thinking that Erastil is fine with premarital sex as long as pregnancy results in marriage. Peasants were often much less uptight about these things than we like to think, and it's important to have kids to keep the community going.. So do the barrenness check before you get permanently tied up.
Erastil believes in strong sex roles, which is, I admit, a rather restricted lifestyle and has problems. But it's not the same thing as Asmodeus' builtin misogyny, or Rovagug's kill everyone for the lulz, or Norgobers selfish destructiveness. I tend to take the Good part of Erastil's alignment seriously in trying to interpret him.
Iomedade is about heroism. Erastil is about responsibility. Feed the kids. Help the neighbors. Abide by time tested customs. Don't be selfish. Different takes on LG, but in the long run you need both.
I don't see a problem with Erastil, having slightly old fashioned views is hardly a crime. Also it is simply that old fashioned people, as they will tend to be in rural areas, will flock to a deity that aligns with their way of life.
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Edit: I am also really curious as to his views on homosexuality. I personally think he would be against it, but I haven't seen any evidence of such.
I do not think Erastil would be against it, because as a God of nature he would have knowledge that people are typically born with such sexual predispositions already hardwired into their brain. Now, he may not be as happy about men and women being born homosexual as those who are born heterosexual, but I do not think he would hold people's nature against them as to call homosexuality immoral.
He just might view it as a drawback, in the same way as someone being born sterile, but one that may have actual benefits for the community. As I stated above, he would probably encourage homosexual couples to adopt orphaned children in order to relieve pressure on the community and to raise the kids in a good, supportive, loving home.
Again, were he Lawful Neutral, he would probably flat out sat that homosexual relationships are prohibited because people are not fulfilling their "proper" roles within the community, and that may lead down the slippery slope to societal dissolution. But remember that Erastil is of a fundamentally good nature. Thus, he would probably realize that community cohesiveness is not helped by forcing people who are not attracted in any way to each other together for the sake of fulfilling traditional husband/wife family models. However, he would doubtlessly still encourage monogamy between homosexual couples, if not outright demand that they be married to one another before starting a family.
I don't see any particular reason that being Lawful Neutral would make him less gay-friendly. But then, I don't see that homosexuality has to be defined as an 'accident of nature,' either. That's always seemed a little disparaging, to me, especially when applied to the term 'sexual preference.' Saying, 'Oh, but s/he can't help it' just seems kinda condescending.
The more you folk talk about this guy, the less I seem to like him. His influence on women is already a matter of debate, and now his treatment of sex, both hetero- and homosexual, seems to vary between damaging and insulting. What good is he actually doing, I wonder, that other gods aren't already doing better?
All told, you guys are making a good case for me to go hang out with DV.
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I don't see any particular reason that being Lawful Neutral would make him less gay-friendly. But then, I don't see that homosexuality has to be defined as an 'accident of nature,' either. That's always seemed a little disparaging, to me, especially when applied to the term 'sexual preference.' Saying, 'Oh, but s/he can't help it' just seems kinda condescending.
The more you folk talk about this guy, the less I seem to like him. His influence on women is already a matter of debate, and now his treatment of sex, both hetero- and homosexual, seems to vary between damaging and insulting. What good is he actually doing, I wonder, that other gods aren't already doing better?
All told, you guys are making a good case for me to go hang out with DV.
I do not know if you were responding to me, Michael Radagast, but nowhere did I refer to homosexuality as a "sexual preference," an "accident of nature" or a "he/she cannot help it, the poor dear" sort of thing. I kind of doubt Erastil would view it that way either. As I said, since Erastil is a "nature god," I think he would see homosexuality as a product of the natural order and having a place both within the natural order and the community, and not as something immoral or a taboo. I doubt he would view it with any more distaste than seeing someone being born with blue eyes instead of brown eyes.
The reason I postulated that he would be less gay-friendly were he Lawful Neutral is that his ultimate concern would be for the welfare of the community and society as a whole, not for the emotional well-being and/or happiness of any one individual. That is not to say that Lawful Neutral characters are unsympathetic to the rights and happiness of individuals. They are generally just lower on the Totem pole of importance to Lawful Neutral characters. On average, Lawful Neutral characters tend to take a top-down approach to individual rights, i.e., if we make and enforce a proper system, the welfare of individuals will naturally be looked after. Think of it as a "trickle down" theory of individual rights. Thus, were Erastil the Lawful Neutral God of Family, I think he would demand that gay or lesbian individuals marry to members of the opposite sex, even if the unions are dispassionate and/or loveless, for the sake of procreation and increasing the number of children in the community. After all, Golarion is a harsh world, and the needs of the community outweigh the needs of the individual. He might make exceptions if the individuals in question were born impotent or sterile, but other than that, if your plumbing is in working order, your first duty is to go forth and multiply.
Meanwhile, Lawful Good/Neutral Good folks tend to take a bottom up approach to individual rights, i.e., the welfare of individuals must be taken into account from the beginning when devising and enforcing a system of rules and regulations. Lawful Good characters are often caught having to perform a balancing act between the needs of the community and the needs of the individual, but will often side for the individual when no apparent foreseeable harm would befall the community. In the case of homosexuality, I do not think the Lawful Good Erastil would view homosexual unions in any way as damaging to the community. Indeed, as I said before, he would probably view such unions as being beneficial both to the individuals and the community, and would likely encourage them for the sake of the gay couples' happiness and the community as a whole.
The more you folk talk about this guy, the less I seem to like him. His influence on women is already a matter of debate, and now his treatment of sex, both hetero- and homosexual, seems to vary between damaging and insulting. What good is he actually doing, I wonder, that other gods aren't already doing better?All told, you guys are making a good case for me to go hang out with DV.
Remember the homosexual speculation is just that speculation. They are not talking about a part of his lore.
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Again, were he Lawful Neutral, he would probably flat out sat that homosexual relationships are prohibited because people are not fulfilling their "proper" roles within the community, and that may lead down the slippery slope to societal dissolution.
I disagree with this, actually. I mean, Abadar has at least one gay Paladin we know of, and he's LN. N deities of any sort actually tend to be extremely non-judgmental, kinda by definition. Even Pharasma (by far the most judgmental N deity) is only judgmental about some really extreme behavior (undeath and only undeath, basically).
Indeed, I'm actually having a hard time thinking of any Golarion deity except Lamashtu (who, as a Goddess of Dark Fertility, is likely against non-reproductive sex acts in general) who would care at all about sexual preference. Even Asmodeus doesn't seem like he'd care very much, honestly, much less Erastil, even were he not Good-aligned.
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Again, were he Lawful Neutral, he would probably flat out sat that homosexual relationships are prohibited because people are not fulfilling their "proper" roles within the community, and that may lead down the slippery slope to societal dissolution.I disagree with this, actually. I mean, Abadar has at least one gay Paladin we know of, and he's LN. N deities of any sort actually tend to be extremely non-judgmental, kinda by definition. Even Pharasma (by far the most judgmental N deity) is only judgmental about some really extreme behavior (undeath and only undeath, basically).
Indeed, I'm actually having a hard time thinking of any Golarion deity except Lamashtu (who, as a Goddess of Dark Fertility, is likely against non-reproductive sex acts in general) who would care at all about sexual preference. Even Asmodeus doesn't seem like he'd care very much, honestly, much less Erastil, even were he not Good-aligned.
Oh, I did not mean to imply that Lawful Neutral somehow equals an anti-gay mentality. I think it also has to do with what the God is a God of. I am simply saying that if Erastil was a Lawful Neutral God of Family instead of a Lawful Good God of Family, he would probably not be as accepting of gay unions, on account that he would want his followers to marry for the purpose of procreation and starting a nuclear family, rather than for the sake of love. But, again, that is just my opinion.
EDIT: As it stands, the way I run Erastil is that he has absolutely no problems with homosexuality or gay couples, as long as they intend to marry one another and start a family.
The very first thing everybody should note if you don't like Erastils ways you are free to not worship him. He won't send inquisitors after you and if you work for the good of the community he may even bless you any way.
I am sure I read that Erastils wife was killed by Rovagug, or lamashtu, and that Desna is his daughter. Or that Desna is his wife and that he is more than happy for her to do her own thing.
I like the first idea and that he blames himself for her death and his become overly protective.
Erastil is Lawful - so he likes social contracts and rules that allow people to work as a community.
Erastil is good - so he is concerned with how his actions affect people being lawful and community minded he will take a many over the few view of his actions.
The way I run Erastil is based on his focuses.
Family - most important, honour your mother honour your father.
Women and mothers are the centre of the family, with out them there are no children, women are best at organising family life and knowing what is needed. They are the last line of defence and his favourite.
Men must see to the needs of the family they must protect their families and those of the community.
If you are unable to have children or are gay, then his focus shifts it's about what you can contribute to your family or you partners family. Erastil is a practical god, he is happy to McGyver his worshipers into useful roles in the community. Ok so you have no interest in either men or women but you are the best shot in town, well if I can't talk you into getting married why don't you join the rangers or teach archery at the school?
Community - Do you contribute, if so then being unable to have children or being gay is not a problem.
Do you destabilise or make the community unhappy.... Violence against family members cheating on partners, theft and so on - depending on the seriousness of the crime he may withdraw his favour from the person or the person may meet with an unfortunate hunting accident.
Clergy - first thing I do is stop using a judeao-Christian model, and try to use a more Celtic/Germanic model - sacred groves, initiations - secret men's and women's rituals. Female and male priests having equal respect but jurisdiction over different aspects of the community.
Non standard communities - less technologically advanced tribal and nomadic communities will have different customs and rules. Some will have harems some will be matriarchies. As long as th majority of the people are happy and the families and communities are strong then he would have no problem if it didn't fit with his most preferred model. Because at his central core Erastil is a god of good.
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A few things that may help in this discussion:
- I believe (and wish I could find a direct citation for this) it has been said Golarion's deities aren't all-knowing or perfect. There are things they can be legitimately unaware of, or be flat out wrong about.
- We also see cases of deities' opinions changing over time.
- It is generally accepted that killing Good creatures or going out of your way to hinder them makes the world that much worse off.
- You can maintain a Good alignment despite having a few Evil, wrong, or just plain ridiculous flaws so long as these flaws are not actively malicious and aren't indefensibly vile.
Before I say anything more, it's possible I'm missing something here; I haven't been able to read the AP32 article others are citing. Nonetheless, I hope what I'm about to say is accurate.
Erastil, despite holding sexist views, is marked Good. How can this be? Certainly much of his dogma worries me. I strongly disagree with the sexism in question, and he has other tenets that make me go "you stay away from me...", but he is still considered Good because he does several benevolent, constructive things. He encourages safety in the community, condemns needless/self-profiting theft, teaches people to build useful things (guard towers, farming implements, etc. are all cited in Faiths of Purity), and be moral, supportive to one another... all Good things.
Erastil is very misguided on gender relations if the summaries of the AP32 article are correct. He is wrong enough that it would scare me away from his faith if I were in Golarion. Nonetheless, his existence on the whole is considered a Good, constructive thing. It is deemed such despite Erastil being very wrong on this topic, and one can thus presume the world would be worse off if he is gone. Apparently it would be best if he is educated and redeemed from his sexism, not outright destroyed.
I have a hard time with people that actually think that believing in a more traditional way of life says anything about their alignment, again, any god in Golarion is not remotely similar to the real world.
To most people all the Gods are just as real, in essence it is all one big polytheistic religion, people can choose their own patron deity/saint and most people will pray to multiple gods depending on the situation and where they are in life.
On one end people justify killing and looting people, tombraiding and what else not as 'non-alignment'related subjects, but being a bit of an old fashioned coot gets you stamped with 'borderline evil' stamp.. seriously ?! Having every single character be violently opposed, shows extreme inflexibility and non-acceptance towards other people or a self centered character in my opinion, unless you are assuming that these people that worship the deity (by choice) are extremely unhappy about their lot in life ?
I could understand this mindset if it was under the LG alignment description but this is just an individual that has slightly outdated, and even that is doubtful given the semi-medieval setting, ideals.
To me it adds color because it shows a LG non-boring god which while good is not the image of perfection, Paizo tends to sprinkle these more mature themes throughout their products in subtle ways, I personally love these details making the setting that much less 'flat'.
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What puzzles me is how people are violently, and some on this thread appear to be, certain that their views on gender roles are correct and/or the ones commonly accepted by society. Erastil's views on family, marriage, and the role of men and women sound like my home town, and I'm pretty sure we're not evil.
I think a few of the posters are approaching the game from a "first world" 21st century perspective. In the past there were not the medical and scientific advances that allowed the average person the ability to live a long and in comparison aristocratic lifestyle. Where science has allowed us to overturn centuries of living in a survival or substance life.
The vast majority of people lived in one room huts and scraped by from one crop to the next. Child birth was one of the biggest killers of women, disease and or starvation was the biggest killer of everybody.
In medieval Europe if you weren't running out of food, dieing in horrible ways due to complications from giving birth (and giving birth a lot as there is no effective contraception), dieing of bacterial and or viral infections (plagues kill a quarter of Europe's population). Then you are hoping the Aristocrats that own the land you work on arent total bastards and take most of the food you grow. Or even worse you hope that marauding Scots, Tartars, Turks, general pirates or the slavers from the Barbary coast don't raid your village kill people enslave others and take the little bit of food you have left.
So the life of the average woman in the medieval world was a nightmare not some vogue magazine rustic log cabin with hot and cold running water and Internet access.
Morning prayers for a women may start like this in "oh Erastil please make sure that my husband and five sons are safe from goblins and that our herds of sheep are free of sickness and safe from wolves. Please also protect our neighbours they are good people and bless them with many fine and strong children." " lady of fear and darknes Lamashtu as you know I am pregnant take this offering of lambs blood and please do not bestow your gifts upon my unborn child". "Pharasma please hear me I make these offerings to you please be with me when I give birth to this child, please do not call me to your judgement."
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Remember, having opposing views from a feminist means you don't deserve to exist.
First of all, speaking as a fellow man, please do not say ignorant things like this. Feminism is the single greatest thing to happen to our backward, suffering society. Feminism paved the way for gay rights, it was the first movement en masse to question the patriarchy of the church (freethought groups have been around forever, but we've always been too small in number until the 21st century to affect real change), feminism for all of its vilification was the movement that allowed men to define our own roles.
In short, feminism is awesome. "Feminist" does not even necessarily mean female. When you conflate it as meaning a man-hating woman, you're doing a huge disservice to an important struggle against forces that would see not just women's rights, but the rights of men and gays and the poor and religious pluralism set back a century.
Secondly, I agree DrowVampyre is going to extremes. (On the other hand, it is a fictional religion in a fictional game. I wouldn't get upset about it---I'd just say I'd have a different interpretation of the alignment of somebody burning down Erastil's churches. Do it if you want, but you're at LEAST Chaotic Neutral with Evil tendencies. A good person who detest the faith wouldn't burn down churches but turn his worshipers to more egalitarian gods.) But I have to agree that I also find Erastil's views backward and not in keeping with a good god. Asmodeus is the more obvious, tyrannical face of misogyny, true. But Erastil is the patronizing, condescending "Father Knows Best" sanitized version that makes it palatable to the masses. It's the same formula used to sell the sanitized nuclear family to the masses while spousal rape, abuse, alcoholism, and neglect ran rampant in the earlier part of the 20th century.
That is using our cosmology, of course. When you consider the long history of oppression, it could never be justified. On Golarion where there have always been matriarchal societies and women have had an equal place from the get-go? Eh, you could really make a case against both Erastil and Saranrae, as somebody mentioned previously.
I think that DrowVampyre's character would make a terrific BBEG for a campaign.
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Asmodeus is the more obvious, tyrannical face of misogyny, true.
It is odd that Asmodeus gets this tar-and-feathering, when the most prominent example of his rule on Golarion is Cheliax, which is ruled with an iron fist by a woman, Abrogail of House Thrune, and whose prominent non-Cheliaxian city-state holding of Korvosa, is *also* run by a woman, Ileosa, who is protected by an elite all-female fighting force.
.For a goat-legged misogynist, the big A seems *awful* tolerant of powerful women bossing around the menfolk on a grand scale.
More so than Erastil, quite possibly...