Paizo Top Nav Branding
  • Hello, Guest! |
  • Sign In |
  • My Account |
  • Shopping Cart |
  • Help/FAQ
About Paizo Messageboards News Paizo Blog Help/FAQ
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game
Pathfinder Society

Pathfinder Beginner Box

Pathfinder Adventure Card Game

Pathfinder Comics

Pathfinder Legends

Kingdom Building Survey


Kingmaker

1 to 50 of 60 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | next > last >>
President, Jon Brazer Enterprises

2 people marked this as a favorite.

Posting in another thread made me think of what exactly could I modify/add onto the current rules to improve them. So I'm asking you, what additions/changes would you like to see. (Mind you, my plate for 2012 is full so this would be 2013 at soonest.)

  • Do you allow your players to use a copy of the kingdom building rules as presented in the Book of the River Nations: Complete Player's Reference for Kingdom Building? If no, why not? Are you using some modification to the rules? If so briefly describe these modifications?

  • Which of the following would you like to see in an expansion? More building? More castle customization options? More environmental options (i.e. desert, planar), More kingdom events? Other?

  • How many players do you have in your group? How many actively take part in kingdom building/mass combat? How many actively do not participate in kingdom building/mass combat? Any particular reasons those players choose not to participate?

  • How much of a threat is Unrest to the players? Is it a regular problem they have to take into account or do the players view it as "our Assassin will reduce unrest to 0 next month?"

  • How important is magic items to your economy? Do you view it as a problem?

    Thanks in advance.


  • - I summed up the Kingdom Building rules/building and printed them out so my player can always see what they're "up against". I think "knowing the rules" is an important part of every game, playing blindly only frustrate players.
    Only Modification I use is for the "item selling" part. I sum up the value of every item they want to sell, and for every 4000 gp they will get 1 BP, together with this I removed the "1 item sell/district" rule
    Also I thinking of adapting the DC for the selling, as at higher "levels" the roll is an auto success even for the most expensive/strange item

    We also added some more hex field improvments from the boards (mine, camp, watchtower)

    Also using a bigger event table (also from the boards^^)

    - Castle customization would be nice, also more events. For homebrew campaigns other enviroments would be nice, but I would stick to the "normal" ones. Maybe Harbour/Trade Rules

    - I have a five man group, but only two people really doing all the Kingdom building stuff. I think mostly because they are real theorycraft/math-guys and they planned the kingdom completly even before we started. I think the other three are a little bit intimidated by it (new player, not really into the "rule-thing".)

    - Unrest wasn't a problem in my campaign, also Upkeep, as my group totaly ignored loyality at the start and stacked up Eco and Stability

    - Magic Items were the backbone of the economy of my players realm. They made up to 75% of the income. Thats why I changed the rules to the 4000gp/1BP part.
    Now it's a little bit more even. Also my players now seems to get "free" from the optimising and sometimes use some BP from the stash for the Cosumption (but really rare).


    Dale McCoy Jr wrote:


  • Do you allow your players to use a copy of the kingdom building rules as presented in the Book of the River Nations: Complete Player's Reference for Kingdom Building? If no, why not? Are you using some modification to the rules? If so briefly describe these modifications?
  • I use the original Kingmaker Rules, Book of the River Nations, and the material from the two Wayfinder articles.

    Dale McCoy Jr wrote:


  • Which of the following would you like to see in an expansion? More building? More castle customization options? More environmental options (i.e. desert, planar), More kingdom events? Other?
  • A short list of things I'd like to see:

    1) More buildings (building tiles for those buildings would be a huge plus!)
    2) More open space developments
    3) More environmental options
    4) Options for different cultures - Far East, Viking, Middle Eastern, etc.
    5) Expanded rules for trade and diplomacy.
    6) More army tactics and upgrades.
    7) More castle customization options. Or even better, city wall upgrades. I've considered using some of the castle upgrades from BotRN and applying them to city walls.


    Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

    We use the Book of the River Nations for everything regarding the Kingdom building, currently only a couple of the players offer input to the one player that spends most of the time handling the kingdom building records.

    We house-ruled that each district could only sell up to the level of magic item it created (since the rules didn't cover one district making 2 major items while another district had no magic production).

    We have been discussing breaking the hexes into 7 smaller hexes as it doesn't make a lot of sense for that many square miles to be able to support only one mine, farm, etc. This is especially relevant with hexes that contain multiple terrain types.

    I'd like to see options for seasonal impact on building.

    We also house-ruled about cities having basic buildings, though we haven't gotten as far as figuring out an unrest/consumption penalty when a town doesn't have basic buildings (like inn, stable, dump, etc)

    Another area sorely lacking in the rule set, and which we have also been playing around with our own rule development, is the eventual creation and expansion of a nobility class. Unless the players are willing to gamble on a democracy, or try a dictatorship. So rules for different government types would be nice.

    And, if you are going to have different government types, seasons, and core buildings, then the buildings should be categorized to ease knowing when modifiers will apply.

    We have also been discussing house rules for breaking up the kingdom building sequence into a city building sequence followed by a kingdom building sequence. We currently have several cities in our kingdom, and we are maintaining a positive consumption, with all three attributes kept high enough to pretty much guarantee success, in fact we can pull out BP every month and still auto succeed the loyalty checks. However, it has become a cramp to have to select which cities are building this month.

    And, a different kingdom tracking sheet is definitely a must. Probably need individual city sheets too. I currently use a semi-linked, multipage spreadsheet to track the buildings and mapping for each city, open space development, monthly expenses/income, and summary. My spreadsheet has a summary page, a history of growth page listing expenses, income, and events, an open spaces page, two pages for each city (map and building list). So for six cities, my spreadsheet contains 16 pages to keep everything organized.


    Yes- I feel sharing the rule learning with the party works best it makes the game go allot smoother when we have a few rules experts instead of just me if I have to stop the game and look up the rules.

    More environment options so the rules can be used in other places, expansion in the trade rules would be nice, rules around diplomacy and how your decisions impact he countries around you. There needs to be some rules of dimensioning returns when kingdoms reach certain sizes so they can just can’t build forever at a staggering pace.

    4 players in my group. 3 actively participated the 4th would get bored and would read a book during kingdom turns. He just wasn’t that interested.

    Unrest after awhile is no threat. There are so many buildings that reduce unrest that it no big deal. Nyrissa took 3 squares and suddenly the unrest was at 12. The next turn they built 12 houses with a carpenter and magic the cost was 1 BP for each house.

    The magic items part was the worst part of the rules. Every turn we had to roll up items even at a mid-sized kingdom this took too much time and was very monotonous. If I ran the kingdom building rules again I would eliminate it and increase some of the building economy output or simply replace it with trade rules.

    Also I would not allow the rule where players that can bump their stats for 1 hour a day can improve the kingdom stats. I would rule they had to do it for 12 hours a day for 7 straight days.

    Silver Crusade

    Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Tales Subscriber
    Dale McCoy Jr wrote:

    Posting in another thread made me think of what exactly could I modify/add onto the current rules to improve them. So I'm asking you, what additions/changes would you like to see. (Mind you, my plate for 2012 is full so this would be 2013 at soonest.)

  • Do you allow your players to use a copy of the kingdom building rules as presented in the Book of the River Nations: Complete Player's Reference for Kingdom Building? If no, why not? Are you using some modification to the rules? If so briefly describe these modifications?

  • Which of the following would you like to see in an expansion? More building? More castle customization options? More environmental options (i.e. desert, planar), More kingdom events? Other?

  • How many players do you have in your group? How many actively take part in kingdom building/mass combat? How many actively do not participate in kingdom building/mass combat? Any particular reasons those players choose not to participate?

  • How much of a threat is Unrest to the players? Is it a regular problem they have to take into account or do the players view it as "our Assassin will reduce unrest to 0 next month?"

  • How important is magic items to your economy? Do you view it as a problem?

    Thanks in advance.

  • 1) Yes I do let my players have a copy of the kingdom building rules (I hand them the book while I read the PDF), I use the Book of River Nations.

    2) Expanded rules for inter-state diplomacy and espionage, and "quick kingdom" rules for a GM to put together Difficulty Classes for skill checks. I'd like to see Kingdom Skills come into play (Diplomacy/Espionage/Order/Magic/Warfare), because the "saving throw" mechanic has its share of difficulties. A lot of players get bored during kingdom building so formalizing something for the other kingdom roles outside of ruler would be great. Also the Control DC rapidly falls behind the saves, so Kingdom Events (the most exciting part of Kingdom Building) tend to fall by the wayside very rapidly. All my players are involved in the Mass Combat stuff, but to varying degrees, I added additional "slots" to an army so there's Leader, Hero and Spellcaster.

    3) After expanding to a certain point the kingdom doesn't see any unrest build up (it tends to disperse within a month or two thanks to the "assassin" (reskinned as Minister of Propaganda))

    4) I reworked magic items so instead of giving a straight up BP hit, they only give a +1 (minor), +2 (medium), +5 (major) bonus to the economy check, at the end of turn. The Static DC makes it too easy to sell items. Generating items takes too long and there's no easy way to do it. Selling the items per district takes too long as well.

    That said: I love the kingdom building, my players also love the kingdom building (and those that don't love it, are always excited to suggest what the kingdom should build next). I think expanding the rules for the other roles outside of leader, and giving a GM some tools for quick city and country building (perhaps a stat-block format) would be super useful. I'd also like to see other terrain such as - desert, islands, darklands, planar, jungle.


    Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

    I tend to use the random events as "guides for what happens" -- after a while, as pointed out, the PCs should be making all the DCs all the time unless they roll a 1. This is not fun. So, while in the early game they should be sweating over DCs and so on, as things progress I just have events happen, and ask the PCs what they do to react. Once you're at +20 on Stability/Loyalty/Economy checks over the control DC, just have the events happen automatically. (And even if you roll, _describe_ -- not just "Stability check crushes the bandits" but "The peasant militia the High Priest of Erastil has been organizing rally to protect their homes against bandits, track them down, and hang them on the spot." Anything to add interest.

    Also, I ended up rolling a separate event for each map. Made quite a bit of difference in how much was going on. A larger kingdom ought to have more happening.

    Work the events so they deal with things the PCs have expressed interest in. If bandits attack... it's at a PC's villa, or a mine they've worked with, or their pet group of kobolds. If a political scandal... it's their cohort, or them, at the center of it. Tailor these to the characters as revealed in play.

    Grand Lodge

    Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
    DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:
    Dale McCoy Jr wrote:

    Posting in another thread made me think of what exactly could I modify/add onto the current rules to improve them. So I'm asking you, what additions/changes would you like to see. (Mind you, my plate for 2012 is full so this would be 2013 at soonest.)

  • Do you allow your players to use a copy of the kingdom building rules as presented in the Book of the River Nations: Complete Player's Reference for Kingdom Building? If no, why not? Are you using some modification to the rules? If so briefly describe these modifications?

  • Which of the following would you like to see in an expansion? More building? More castle customization options? More environmental options (i.e. desert, planar), More kingdom events? Other?

  • How many players do you have in your group? How many actively take part in kingdom building/mass combat? How many actively do not participate in kingdom building/mass combat? Any particular reasons those players choose not to participate?

  • How much of a threat is Unrest to the players? Is it a regular problem they have to take into account or do the players view it as "our Assassin will reduce unrest to 0 next month?"

  • How important is magic items to your economy? Do you view it as a problem?

    Thanks in advance.

  • 1) Yes I do let my players have a copy of the kingdom building rules (I hand them the book while I read the PDF), I use the Book of River Nations.

    2) Expanded rules for inter-state diplomacy and espionage, and "quick kingdom" rules for a GM to put together Difficulty Classes for skill checks. I'd like to see Kingdom Skills come into play (Diplomacy/Espionage/Order/Magic/Warfare), because the "saving throw" mechanic has its share of difficulties. A lot of players get bored during kingdom building so formalizing something for the other kingdom roles outside of ruler would be great. Also the Control DC...

    So far, everyone seems to enjoy the Kingdom Building Rules. And yes I showed them all the buildings and rules. I think it makes it a smoother transition and I don't have to 'baby-sit' everyone decision.


    2 people marked this as a favorite.

    A quick summary of what we did:

    No building/expansion during winter. Extra cost during harvest. Farms only start working in spring. Some other seasonal impacts.

    Build time for certain buildings.

    Control DC is calculated as written plus modifier based on population.

    Buildings cause different population increases.
    Extra buildings: Sewers, temples (benefit by religion), cathedral (benefit by religion), bank, bathhouse, bazaar, Court house, embassy, exchange, gambling hall, hospice, kitchen, lighthouse, lock shop, menagerie, mint, museum, pawn shop, school, scriptorium, slave pen, stock yard, warehouse, workhouse

    Hex Improvements: Most things come in levels. (cost in BP)
    Hex claimed: population = 100, other improvements may increase pop
    Farm lvl 1-3: -1 Consumption per level, 250 people per level, cost 2^lvl in plains, requires Infrastructure of matching level to provide bonus to kingdom
    Trade road, lvl 1-3: 25 people per level, each level counts as road
    1: (1;2;4) dirt road, useful only in good weather,
    2: (3;6;12) normal travel speed most of the year, all cities need to be connected to capital with such roads to provide bonuses.
    3: (6;12;24) +1 Economy, very good roads usable all year,
    Infrastructure lvl 1-3: 25 people per level, each level counts as road, same price as Trade Roads, +1 Stability at level 3
    River crossing:
    simple bridge: cheap and easy to destroy
    solid bridge: very solid construction hard to destroy, more expensive.
    fortified bridge: very expensive, but includes fortifications: +1 Consumption, +1 Stability, +2 Defense, 50 people
    small Ferry: 25 people, road, suitable for people and mounts, but slow for trade or armies.
    large ferry: 50 people, road, slightly reduced army movement.
    Estate: (24;36) requires Farm II, -2 Consumption, -1 Economy, +1 Stability, 75 people, noble estate owns most of the land and provides education/guidelines to improve local farm yield
    Estate, fortified: (20) requires Estate, +2 Defense, +1 Stability, +1 Loyalty, -1 Economy, Estate serves as local defense center, providing security for the area.
    Fishing camp: (6) 150 pop, +1 Economic, +1 Stability (x2 with rare resource)
    Logging Camp, small: (6)75 pop, -1 consumption, +1 economy
    Logging Camp, large (upgrade): (12)125 pop, req. small logging camp, -1 Consumption, +1 stability
    Mine, small: (6;9) 75 pop, -1 Consumption, +1 Economy, req. hills or mountain
    Mine, large: (18;27) 250 pop, -2 Consumption, +1 Economy, +1 Stability, req: hill or mountain, not Farm lvl 3
    City: Cities are no longer founded, but grow from smaller settlements.
    Hamlet (.25 district), 4 Blocks, +.5 Consumption, pop by block
    Village (.25 district) 8 Blocks, +1 Consumption
    Town (.25 district) 16 Blocks, +2 Consumption
    City (.25 district) +1 Consumption/32 Blocks, loose all Farms in hex
    Underground Complex: (24) 6 months preparation time, req: Mine, subterran race (like dwarves), building cost x3, district costs 48 BP and takes 6 months preparation

    Magical items aren't sold but remain available for six months before being replaced. However for every actually item slot there is a virtual slot representing a variety of magical services that can be 'sold' for BP. Sell Dc as listed, but +5 for every additional item of that slot type. So major is DC 40 to sell one, DC 45 to sell two, etc.
    minor: 1 item/district/month while roads are open
    medium: 1 item/full district/month while roads are open
    major: 1 item/full district/quarter
    Any item the party buys is replaced the next month and provides the kingdom with BP as listed in RRR.

    skill uses:
    Profession(ruler): DM rolls twice for random events and chooses the more favorable result
    Profession(treasurer): reroll economy checks
    Profession([head of city guards, Warden in RRR, Marshall in RN-KB]): reroll loyalty checks, solve crimes, locate spies, professionalism of guards, resist bribery
    Profession(High Priest): reroll stability checks
    Profession(Magister): boost BP income/magical item
    Profession(Diplomat): assure communications with embassies abroad
    Prefession(spymaster): 'hands off' intelligence or counter-intelligence operation
    Profession(councilor): know what people want rather than special interests
    Profession(general): secure communication, locate infiltrators in military, ensure training quality, ensure equipment quality
    profession([rural areas]): solve crime, locate spies
    profession(Royal Assassin): remove undesired elements silently
    all professions: prevent corruption in bureaucracy
    profession(bureaucrat): can serve as any of the above professions but with -5 penalty to any action specific to those profession.

    normal skills will come up often enough during normal role play of diplomacy, Intrigue, trials, and public council sessions.

    Interaction with factions. Interaction with every faction has advantages and disadvantages.

    Politics: Internal politics of the country; political parties with conflicting interests, VIPs advancing their agendas,

    Unrest never was a real problem. Unless players roll very, very badly for several months in a row, the only way to get an unrest problem is to expand too quickly, and most players realize the problem early enough. Especially since houses alone can bring down unrest rather easily.
    I guess with politics and tension between various political ideologies and people of importance unrest will become harder to manage.

    For combat we used Warpath rules. That made things somewhat more interesting.

    Grand Lodge

    Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
    Old Drake wrote:

    A quick summary of what we did:

    No building/expansion during winter. Extra cost during harvest. Farms only start working in spring. Some other seasonal impacts.

    Build time for certain buildings.

    Control DC is calculated as written plus modifier based on population.

    Buildings cause different population increases.
    Extra buildings: Sewers, temples (benefit by religion), cathedral (benefit by religion), bank, bathhouse, bazaar, Court house, embassy, exchange, gambling hall, hospice, kitchen, lighthouse, lock shop, menagerie, mint, museum, pawn shop, school, scriptorium, slave pen, stock yard, warehouse, workhouse

    Hex Improvements: Most things come in levels. (cost in BP)
    Hex claimed: population = 100, other improvements may increase pop
    Farm lvl 1-3: -1 Consumption per level, 250 people per level, cost 2^lvl in plains, requires Infrastructure of matching level to provide bonus to kingdom
    Trade road, lvl 1-3: 25 people per level, each level counts as road
    1: (1;2;4) dirt road, useful only in good weather,
    2: (3;6;12) normal travel speed most of the year, all cities need to be connected to capital with such roads to provide bonuses.
    3: (6;12;24) +1 Economy, very good roads usable all year,
    Infrastructure lvl 1-3: 25 people per level, each level counts as road, same price as Trade Roads, +1 Stability at level 3
    River crossing:
    simple bridge: cheap and easy to destroy
    solid bridge: very solid construction hard to destroy, more expensive.
    fortified bridge: very expensive, but includes fortifications: +1 Consumption, +1 Stability, +2 Defense, 50 people
    small Ferry: 25 people, road, suitable for people and mounts, but slow for trade or armies.
    large ferry: 50 people, road, slightly reduced army movement.
    Estate: (24;36) requires Farm II, -2 Consumption, -1 Economy, +1 Stability, 75 people, noble estate owns most of the land and provides education/guidelines to improve local farm yield
    Estate, fortified: (20) requires Estate, +2 Defense, +1 Stability, +1 Loyalty, -1 Economy, Estate serves...

    Didn't that really slow down building by not doing any thing in the winter? Did they cast control weather?


    Dale McCoy Jr wrote:
    Posting in another thread made me think of what exactly could I modify/add onto the current rules to improve them. So I'm asking you, what additions/changes would you like to see. (Mind you, my plate for 2012 is full so this would be 2013 at soonest.)

    As I said in that thread, I'd love to see a version 2.0. This year would be amazing, but I totally understand if you're booked up. My game will almost certainly still be able to benefit from it, and if not, I'll still buy it to see what you've come up with.

    Quote:
  • Do you allow your players to use a copy of the kingdom building rules as presented in the Book of the River Nations: Complete Player's Reference for Kingdom Building? If no, why not? Are you using some modification to the rules? If so briefly describe these modifications?
  • I summarized them, applying a few tweaks from the forums, and a few of my own rules.

    My adjustments:
  • I applied the "Stats are effectively capped at lowest+10 - you can go over, but you derive no benefit" rule.
  • I expanded on the "must be in the capital" rule: If they spent the whole month there, they got a bonus to all their checks. If they arrange it in advance, they could spend the week of running the kingdom elsewhere in their borders, with a penalty to all checks. Both bonus and penalty scale with kingdom size: +1 per 15 hexes, -1 per 10.
  • I added build-time to buildings based on cost. 20BP-49BP are ready in the following month, 50BP+ takes two extra months.
  • I cut the population values and block-size drasticly. 50 people per block, and a building is a single building (or a building plus supporting buildings), not a whole district.
  • I added a "Housing Capacity" stat. If you have too many buildings for your available housing, you generate unrest. Tenements have more housing per block than houses, so if you're close to your limit you may not want to upgrade them (and thus need to find another way to get a quick unrest fix)
  • I added a penalty for lowering the Festivals-per-year slider mid-year.
  • I better defined the "steal an item" rules.
  • I added a way to spend BP to "hire adventurers" to get a bonus to Event checks.
  • Quote:
  • Which of the following would you like to see in an expansion? More building? More castle customization options? More environmental options (i.e. desert, planar), More kingdom events? Other?
  • Yes.

    More seriously, more buildings wouldn't necessarily be worth it if there isn't more to distinguish one building from another than their stats. There is nothing to separate a Butcher from a Library from a Tannery, except that the Library gets discounted by an Academy, and a Tannery can't be next to a house. There is nothing at all to separate a Baker from a Weaver, or a Herbalist from an Exotic Craftsman. There needs to be either more stats to each building, so that there's something to distinguish them, less buildings, in favor of generic buildings, or something that requires you to vary what you build.

    Elaboration:

    For stats, you can possibly tie it into the city stat blocks from the GMG. Certain buildings help your city's stats differently, even though they affect your kingdom the same. Or devise an entirely new stat. Off the top of my head, you could add an Appeal stat to kingdoms, which affects how people outside the kingdom feel about moving to it. Things that involve bringing people in might require an Appeal roll - maybe you need to make the check every time you build something, to see if you can attract the right people to run it, and higher level buildings have a harder check, but the basic amenities give a bonus...

    For generic buildings, you'd have groups of low-level buildings that all have the same stat, and the players can decide what to call it. For example, a "Basic Goods" building, which could be a Baker, Weaver, Carpenter, Barrel-maker, Smith, etc. Each one would give the same stats because they're mechanically the same thing, but they can be called different things. The same way the ruler could be a Baron, Duke, Head Honcho, or Prime Minister - the effects on the kingdom are the same. The Herbalist/Exotic Craftsman category could be "Specialty Goods". There could also be "Public Spaces" (Graveyard, Town Commons), "Food" (Granary, Brewery), etc. Obviously, you'd need more examples in each, but it would be an easy way to add lots of new buildings without needing to make them different at all.

    As yet another possibility, it would be nice if there was more interplay between buildings. Maybe have "tech trees" where you can't build a Tavern until you have a Brewery (or you can, but it doesn't provide the Economy boost, because it has to import drinks from outKingdom). You might not be able to build a Magic Shop unless there's a Caster's Tower, and you can't build an Academy until there's a Caster's Tower and a Library. The discounts could still trickle back down for building more of the lesser buildings, but it'd require you to get them first rather than rushing the big ones. Alternatively, you could require some buildings to be upgraded from lesser ones - a Keep becomes a Castle, for instance.

    More castle options would be nice, as would expanding the concept to the other "major" buildings if you can come up with ideas. I'm not in love with the whole idea, but my players are really looking forward to it. More environmental options could be useful, even if it's just a list of "Here's some modifiers to apply". I wouldn't miss them if they aren't there, though.

    Events could definitely use an overhaul, though. I like what you did to expand them in the current version of the book, but the framework they're based on is a bit flaky. Some events can be hard to adjudicate, for instance. What if the PCs want to get involved in an event that doesn't have space for them ("We want to arrest the Rowdy Adventurers, and fine them for the cost of repairing the tavern"), or don't want to get involved in an event that calls for them ("Our magister considers festivals beneath him - he'd never put on a performance there!"). Also, the "Until next event phase" rolls are often wasted, because no check of that type comes up, or the kingdom's auto-succeeding anyway. Not sure there's much you can do to fix that, though. I would like to see more events which have conditional effects. ("If you have a Granary, the food shortage is mitigated, and Consumption only increases by 50% for the next month." or "If you have more than one Noble Villa, the Feud drags in more people, increasing the check DC by 2 for each one") It might also be interesting if there was some way to influence events' likelihood, but that would probably be too complicated and hard to justify. Rules for increasing the number of event rolls based on kingdom size would be good, too, although then you might get conflicting ones. Maybe divide events into City-events (and each city gets one roll) and Kingdom-events (and you get one roll for the whole kingdom)?

    Quote:
  • How many players do you have in your group? How many actively take part in kingdom building/mass combat? How many actively do not participate in kingdom building/mass combat? Any particular reasons those players choose not to participate?
  • I have 6 players. It used to be only two were really into it, and two more kindof got involved with the decision making but didn't mess with the numbers. But then one of the two primary ones moved away just as we hit the pure kingdom building between book 2 and 3. So I created a very simplified spreadsheet on google docs that everyone could watch, and some more handouts, and now pretty much everyone except the new guy is pretty heavily involved. So not much advice I can offer there.

    Quote:
  • How much of a threat is Unrest to the players? Is it a regular problem they have to take into account or do the players view it as "our Assassin will reduce unrest to 0 next month?"
  • In general, it's ignored. Although they appropriated a magic item last month (and gained 5 unrest), and then failed to resolve the Monster Attack event (they decided to handle it themselves, but confused a random encounter for the actual threat, and called it done). That bumped them up to 9 unrest, and they kindof panicked. But the next month they just dumped a bunch of BP on unrest-reduction buildings, and they pushed it back down to trivial. (Side thought: If they had to make Appeal rolls to build the unrest-reducing buildings, and Appeal was penalized by Unrest, it would be a lot harder to get rid of.) So unrest is generally a stat that can be ignored, except for when it's a huge problem - there's no middle ground.

    Quote:
  • How important is magic items to your economy? Do you view it as a problem?
  • My group is just starting to get major items, but their BP totals have shot through the roof since they have. They can now afford just about any minor buildings they want, or can build a major one in a month or two. BP is still a limiter, but now it's much less of one, and as they get more majors and the economy goes higher, I expect it to just start stockpiling. Having a standing army at low levels would help, but I have issues with the army rules too.

    Quote:
    Thanks in advance.

    Thank you!


    PJ wrote:
    Old Drake wrote:

    No building/expansion during winter. Extra cost during harvest. Farms only start working in spring. Some other seasonal impacts.

    Didn't that really slow down building by not doing any thing in the winter? Did they cast control weather?

    Did it slow things down? Sure. But it was still plenty fast. Perhaps still too fast. Cities of thousands don't just appear. Thousands just don't migrate into a new country that quickly. Realistically it should probably have taken at least twice as long as it did to reach the population we had, if not even more time.

    As for control weather... it's 7th level. No, they didn't cast it. By the time they could do so, they didn't feel the need. And even if they did cast it, where would the people come from to live and work there? It's not like the roads are open for travel.


    1 person marked this as a favorite.
    DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:

    4) I reworked magic items so instead of giving a straight up BP hit, they only give a +1 (minor), +2 (medium), +5 (major) bonus to the economy check, at the end of turn. The Static DC makes it too easy to sell items. Generating items takes too long and there's no easy way to do it. Selling the items per district takes too long as well.

    I use the random item generator at http://www.dunknet.net/pathfinder.aspx. It makes generating the items much faster. I also don't bother rolling up minor items, or figuring out exactly which city produced which magic item (and thus what base value should be used for rerolls).


    I'm running a game that is still in the exploration phase of The Stolen Lands, hence we've not begun to tackle the Kingdom building parts of the game. Reviewing the rules and looking at the boards here, it seems that there's a lot of support for the system, as well as what sound like great suggestions.

    Knowing my group, and myself, I think the one thing that would impact us (and I suspect many others playing the game) in the most positive manner would be a web/smartphone app that handled/helped the kingdom building.

    I imagine something that would provide a simple step by step flowchart, of phases and necesarry rolls/decisions that need to be made in the phases, and output both the monthy progress and a yearly/multi-yearly output.
    What if it had a map section that allowed you to import a hex map and place settlements?
    What if you clicked on the settlement and it took you to a district map of the settlement and allowed you to place the building icons, thus build out your city?
    All of this information could feed into a database on the backend that would feed the upcoming month's flowchart/decision phase.

    Effectively, I love the spreadsheets that have been put together, it'd be really sweet if there was a standardized one (app) that was simple to use and easily accessible, that helped streamline the process.

    Thanks, I'm looking forward to where this will go!


    Another thing to consider adding: General espionage rules. Nothing fancy, just along the lines of "This is the cost/rolls associated with spying. For X level, you find out what hexes the kingdom has claimed and where the cities are. For Y level, you can find out what they have built." and so on.

    If you want to get fancier, you could build up espionage points against a target, and do counter espionage to lower the points someone's built up against you. Sortof how Civ IV does it.


    have to agree Jabberwonky with the app.
    At the moment I keep track with a excel sheet, but it grows bigger and bigger :) (And I found no Android App which allows me to use RN-Generator based on excel (e.g. for weather or random encounter))

    Shadow Lodge

    I'm using the Kingdom Building excel spradsheet that was developed on these boards to keep track of everything. I wouldn't be able to do it otherwise, because I have to keep track of 4 'kingdoms' within my party's confederacy, plus 2 additional NPC kingdoms I created, and Pitax and Mivon currently, so that's 8 different spreadsheets to track and maintain.

    I haven't modified the way magic items for BP works yet so right now my players are rolling in thousands of BP.


    I found the Book of River Nations wonderful, but really want more on diplomatic relations. Party is talking to different sides, and will eventually make friends, but until then they mostly just keep to themselves because there is no bonus to being buds with others.

    Andoran

    Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber

    Our group uses the rules in the BotRK and the extras in Wayfinder. they have full site of the books as that makes things easier.

    More buildings. evenets (even if at this stage they don't really have an impact) and environs are always good. The castle hasn't had much use yet as nothing directly benefits the kingdom (did I mention my players are towards the optimiser end of the spectrum). The diplomacy rules would be fun addition. My players impressed Lord Varn with their kingdom, but some rules on trading (even if only very high level) would have come in handy.

    There are 5 players. Two and a half of these are involved heavily in the kingdom building phase, while the other two aren't really interested/paying attention unless it somehow benefits theri characters directly.

    Unrest is not a problem for the kingdom. The highest it's ever been has been 2 early on and that was swiftly whittled down to nothing. The players could, and did, withdraw half the treasury for magic items, and the citizens barely raised a single 'tut'.

    MAgic Items make up the bulk of the economy but the rest is also very strong. At present Economy score is well over a hundred so it's not as if they'd be short of funds without magic items, but they contribute more than half on a normal roll. however, they are not the first economy booster building so the players are trying for some reason. Although they do love their cathedrals. It's not a problem, as they're not buying the items themselves to get themselves even more tricked out, just contributing to the already high economy. But they can, and have, built a town, including walls, watch offices and shops from scratch in one turn before now so the economy in general is pretty silly.

    Silver Crusade

    3 people marked this as a favorite.
    Dale McCoy Jr wrote:


  • Do you allow your players to use a copy of the kingdom building rules as presented in the Book of the River Nations: Complete Player's Reference for Kingdom Building? If no, why not? Are you using some modification to the rules? If so briefly describe these modifications?

  • Which of the following would you like to see in an expansion? More building? More castle customization options? More environmental options (i.e. desert, planar), More kingdom events? Other?

  • How many players do you have in your group? How many actively take part in kingdom building/mass combat? How many actively do not participate in kingdom building/mass combat? Any particular reasons those players choose not to participate?

  • How much of a threat is Unrest to the players? Is it a regular problem they have to take into account or do the players view it as "our Assassin will reduce unrest to 0 next month?"

  • How important is magic items to your economy? Do you view it as a problem?
  • 1. I gave my players everything except for the random events. There are some modifications. First is population. I ruled that a city's population is actually the sum of its Economy, Loyaly, & Stability scores x 25. The hex pop remains at 250. Second is mass combat. We do not use the mass combat rules at all. Instead we use the 3pp Warpath. My players wanted far more complexity, tactical, and strategy usage than what was available. We tried it once as written and didn't like it. It was quick, true, but it didn't 'feel' like mass combat to them. As a result, I've completly removed the Defense mechanic. I also use a Manpower mechanic. An army of 100 units takes 1 Manpower from the city. Manpower equals kingdom population divided by 1000. That was something someone posted here.

    I also changed a little bit of Magic Item Availability. A city needed a specific building in order to make certain magic items. For example, for Magic Weapons and Armor, the city needed a Smith and a Caster's Tower (or Academy) for there to be any of those types of items sold in the city.
    Also, using someone else's example here - I changed the way Taxation worked. Instead of a bonus to Economy, I use an Income Bonus Divisor based on the taxation leve. So Normal you would divide your Income roll by 5 (as in normal rules), but a Heavy rate, you'd only divide by 4, or No Taxes, you would divide by 8. I also use a few other modifications from folks here on the boards that deal directly with each rulership position - so I have rules for a Spy Network, Diplomacy, and Trade. It feels very Civilization-like the way it works. I've assigned certain buildings a trade good that they can produce, using the raw goods that the kingdom produces and those special goods provide other bonuses. For example, if the kingdom puts a mine in a mountain hex, that produces stone. If the city has a guildhall for stonemasons (I have my players indicate what kind of guildhall it is), then the cost of city walls is reduced by 1/4 or something like that...

    2. I would like to see more castle customization options, right now the players aren't interested in them at all. But they need to be something more than bonuses to Kingdom stats. I've thought about some of the woundrous architecture from the old 3.0 Stronghold Builder's Guidebook might make a good addition. I'm not sure about environmental options, though I agree they should be included - that way you can use this book for something other than Kingmaker. What i'd be most interested in is racial options. How to make a dwarven clanhold, elvish specific buildings, halfling quarters within an existing city, ect. YES, yes, and yes to more events. I've almost exhausted through that list twice now and i'm starting to just make my own now.

    3. Unrest has been an issue twice and our kingdom is in its 7th year. Once when the kingdom was only 2 or 3 months old, some bad random events occured. The second time was during a war with a Troll King. Their armies were obliterated and the Unrest it caused was tremendous. Otherwise, unrest is not an issue. And we do not even employ an Assassin.

    4. At first magic items were minimal. But since the Magic Item Shop came into play (two more built since the first), the sell of magic items has ballooned the BP treasurey. The players never have fear of running out of BP and can build almost whatever they want each month. So I think it is a problem, but I'm not sure what to do about it. Without the magic item sales, they wouldn't have much BP to do much of anything with.

    5. Our biggest concern is that none of the Economy, Stability, Loyalty rolls ever seem to fail. All three stats are waaaaaay over the Control DC - and our kingdom has over 90 hexes right now. So they really have no fear whatsoever of any of those rolls failing. It's gotten so that we just assume that they succeed and don't roll anymore, since rolling just for the 1 isn't exciting.

    6. I would like to see more options for Diplomacy and Trade. I would also like to see something that each ruler can do. Like how the Warden can send out patrols to certain hexes and get Stability? bonuses or something like that? Embassies for the Diplomat. Spy Networks for the Spymaster. Assassin targets for the Assassin. Maybe have something like random events but have them only for a specific ruler to take care of.


    sirmattdusty wrote:


    I also use a few other modifications from folks here on the boards that deal directly with each rulership position - so I have rules for a Spy Network, Diplomacy, and Trade.

    Can you link to the post(s) you got those from? I don't think I've seen them, but I'd love to have them.


    1 person marked this as a favorite.
    DoomCrow wrote:

    , plus 2 additional NPC kingdoms I created, and Pitax and Mivon currently, so that's 8 different spreadsheets to track and maintain.

    Would you be willing to share these files? I would love to know how you envision the other nations :)

    Mivon, Pitax, NPC kingdoms huzzah!


    Dale McCoy Jr wrote:

    (edited...)

    [1] Do you allow your players to use a copy of the kingdom building rules.Are you using some modification to the rules? If so briefly describe these modifications?
    [2] Which of the following would you like to see in an expansion?
    [3] How many players do you have in your group? How many actively take part in kingdom building/mass combat?
    [4] How much of a threat is Unrest to the players?
    [5] How important is magic items to your economy? Do you view it as a problem?

    1 - My players have the full base kingdom-building rules, with the exception of events and a few buildings that I have designated as 'unlockables' (they won't become available until the kingdom meets certain criteria). I will give them rules on those buildings when they become available.

    2 - More events and/or advice on reconfiguring events so they don't feel repetitive. More building options outside of cities, particularly ones that are different from those available, but not mechanically superior/inferior...I'd like my players to have to think about what to put outside of cities just as much as they think about the inside.
    3 - Five players, all very engaged in Kingdom building.
    4 - None. They've been reasonably careful, and so have no unrest (a little early on, but not any more)
    5 - Once they started getting medium items, it was a game-changer. I don't know that I'd classify it as a 'problem' at this point, but it's definitely different.


    Locked Buildings are an interesting idea, it's a nice incentive for reaching a special kingdom size and they could help to regulate the "Magic item explosion" on early stages... have to think over it.

    Grand Lodge

    Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
    sirmattdusty wrote:
    Dale McCoy Jr wrote:


  • Do you allow your players to use a copy of the kingdom building rules as presented in the Book of the River Nations: Complete Player's Reference for Kingdom Building? If no, why not? Are you using some modification to the rules? If so briefly describe these modifications?

  • Which of the following would you like to see in an expansion? More building? More castle customization options? More environmental options (i.e. desert, planar), More kingdom events? Other?

  • How many players do you have in your group? How many actively take part in kingdom building/mass combat? How many actively do not participate in kingdom building/mass combat? Any particular reasons those players choose not to participate?

  • How much of a threat is Unrest to the players? Is it a regular problem they have to take into account or do the players view it as "our Assassin will reduce unrest to 0 next month?"

  • How important is magic items to your economy? Do you view it as a problem?
  • 1. I gave my players everything except for the random events. There are some modifications. First is population. I ruled that a city's population is actually the sum of its Economy, Loyaly, & Stability scores x 25. The hex pop remains at 250. Second is mass combat. We do not use the mass combat rules at all. Instead we use the 3pp Warpath. My players wanted far more complexity, tactical, and strategy usage than what was available. We tried it once as written and didn't like it. It was quick, true, but it didn't 'feel' like mass combat to them. As a result, I've completly removed the Defense mechanic. I also use a Manpower mechanic. An army of 100 units takes 1 Manpower from the city. Manpower equals kingdom population divided by 1000. That was something someone posted here.

    I also changed a little bit of Magic Item Availability. A city needed a specific...

    Sir, would you be willing to share your notes? I definitely would be interested in how you used these new rules. MY email is in my profile. Thanks!

    Silver Crusade

    Email has been sent.

    Andoran

    I would also like these rules you speak of. My group just finished Book 1 this weekend, but we won't be meeting for about a month, and it will give me plenty of time to digest new rules.

    E-mail:
    evandhimes@gmail.com

    Osirion

    Ditto here please. It sounds like some of your changes would fit in perfectly with where I am going in later books.

    E-mail:
    redcelt32@juno.com

    Silver Crusade

    Just so everyone knows, these aren't MY changes. all of them but one or two were created by other posters on these very boards. I just happened to collect the ones I liked. But i will send you what I have so you can take a look and see what we do.

    Grand Lodge

    I'd love to see what you've done as well.

    E-mail:
    lexstarwalker@gmail.com


    I'd like to see an option for a no-magic (or, no player/kingdom-created magic items) campaign.

    Also, it'd be good to have a simple online tool that randomly-generated maps. Click, there's a region. Throw in some simple logic so forests tend to be next to forests but not next to desert, rivers sometimes form lakes, and so on. The whole thing should seed those random exceptional qualities (resources, ruins, and such) as well.

    Cheliax

    I would also like to have a look at those changes, please! My players are approaching book 2 rapidly and I'd like to be prepared.

    Spoiler:
    dezhem@gmail.com


    sirmattdusty wrote:
    Just so everyone knows, these aren't MY changes. all of them but one or two were created by other posters on these very boards. I just happened to collect the ones I liked. But i will send you what I have so you can take a look and see what we do.

    You may not be the one who created them, but you are the one who collected and filtered them, which is definitely worth some credit. As the editor of the collection if nothing else. And it's definitely a good collection.

    Sczarni

    Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

    I'll drink the Kool-Aid. Shoot me a copy. tchubler85@gmail.com

    President, Jon Brazer Enterprises

    Zaruthustran wrote:
    Also, it'd be good to have a simple online tool that randomly-generated maps. Click, there's a region. Throw in some simple logic so forests tend to be next to forests but not next to desert, rivers sometimes form lakes, and so on. The whole thing should seed those random exceptional qualities (resources, ruins, and such) as well.

    I believe that Hexographer would bit a good and free starting point.


    Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
    sirmattdusty wrote:


    Email has been sent.

    I too would greatly appreciate a copy

    Shadow Lodge

    I'd love a copy as well.

    Email: Logan.holt@hotmail.com


    1 person marked this as a favorite.
    Dale McCoy Jr wrote:
  • Which of the following would you like to see in an expansion? More building? More castle customization options? More environmental options (i.e. desert, planar), More kingdom events? Other?
  • Originally I looked into the Kingmaker AP because someone recommended it as a more recent "D&D Rulership" rules than Birthright.

    I'm a member of a dwindling but hard-core band of Birthright PBeM players, and was/am hoping to find something to expand the hobby, enrich the concept of "D&D/Pathfinder with Lords and Ladies."

    I think the Kingmaker rules as they stand are good for the AP, but even in your modified/expanded version, so far, somewhat campaign-specific.

    1) They rely, especially early on, in the PCs facing a situation that will rarely obtain - the ability to start a kingdom by gradually expanding in unclaimed (under-claimed) land. This isn't something characters could do in, say, Andoran, or even elsewhere in the River Kingdoms - outside the Stolen Lands, unclaimed hexes are going to be rare.

    2) The rules as written focus too much on construction. While arguably the Birthright rules that form my basis of comparison pay too little attention to constructing buildings (such that over the years various of us have tried fan-created monumental buildings, and the like), the Kingmaker rules pretty much boil down to constructing buildings - IMO, too much "Sim City" and not enough "Civ" - and this from someone who loves building & detailing cities.

    3) It's too easily "gamed" - the rules were created as a backdrop to an adventure, with "flaws" the designer admitted too because they were made for a one-off and not as part of an ongoing game. Once players get familiar with the Kingmaker Kingdom-creation rules, I think they'll find them a bit monotinous and simple.

    4) Having read up on things, Kingdom-building is hard early on but then becomes a fairly simple matter. While this might be realistic, it's not good for characters to face their biggest challenges when they're noobs and less challenges as they become pros.

    5) Though characters can take different positions in the Kingdom, functionally it remains one realm, one coherent monolith. It would be nice to add niches within the Kingdom - again, compare with Birthright where not only are their Landed Realms, but also distinct Temple Realms, Guild/Trade Realms, and magical realms.

    6) Also IMO in a future/expanded version of Kingmaker-style Kingdom-running, it should be easier/not penalized, for PCs to each run their own realm (if as allies), again as it was in Birthright.

    7) IMO, and this is a personal wish, it would be nice if a rules revision lent itself to a PBeM/Play-by-Post Kingdom Rulership style D&D/Pathfinder game.

    8) The Kingmaker mass combat rules were deliberately highly abstracted; again the original writer pointed that out himself, along with the reasons why (which were good ones in the context of the AP), but there should be a more detailed set of mass combat rules.

    9) The Economy/Stability/Loyalty rules don't really work long-term, at least when it comes to making rolls. Different sorts of rules should be used; these might need to be rebuilt from the ground up. (I'm not saying the economics entirely needs to rebuilt from scratch, just these DCs). That said, you should be able to generate some reasonable income from taxation (not just buildings), and that probably should replace the income from magic item sales (which should not be eliminated entirely, but should be made more reasonable - I.E. not assume the sale is, essentially, pure profit, but after paying the creator, the staff, the maint in general, only a reasonable fraction of the gross sales receipts from magic items makes it into the "general fund." - or whatever other rationale one wants to use to make magic item sales less of the determining factor of how robust your Kingdom cam be; as already pointed out, without them, it's hand-to-mouth, without even financing an army, but with the magic shops, income grows too fast).

    Now while "Birthright" is my basis of comparison, and I find much to admire in that rules-set, especially as adapted and adopted by the aforementioned dwindling but hard-core set of people who still play it, I'm not trying to say "republish Birthright." However what I am suggesting is taking some from it - including, perhaps, lessons on what not to do - and incorporating them into an enriched and revised set of "Kingmaker" rules that would lend itself to longer-term play outside of the AP the original rules were created for.

    Grand Lodge

    Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
    Porphyrogenitus wrote:
    Dale McCoy Jr wrote:
  • Which of the following would you like to see in an expansion? More building? More castle customization options? More environmental options (i.e. desert, planar), More kingdom events? Other?
  • Originally I looked into the Kingmaker AP because someone recommended it as a more recent "D&D Rulership" rules than Birthright.

    I'm a member of a dwindling but hard-core band of Birthright PBeM players, and was/am hoping to find something to expand the hobby, enrich the concept of "D&D/Pathfinder with Lords and Ladies."

    I think the Kingmaker rules as they stand are good for the AP, but even in your modified/expanded version, so far, somewhat campaign-specific.

    1) They rely, especially early on, in the PCs facing a situation that will rarely obtain - the ability to start a kingdom by gradually expanding in unclaimed (under-claimed) land. This isn't something characters could do in, say, Andoran, or even elsewhere in the River Kingdoms - outside the Stolen Lands, unclaimed hexes are going to be rare.

    2) The rules as written focus too much on construction. While arguably the Birthright rules that form my basis of comparison pay too little attention to constructing buildings (such that over the years various of us have tried fan-created monumental buildings, and the like), the Kingmaker rules pretty much boil down to constructing buildings - IMO, too much "Sim City" and not enough "Civ" - and this from someone who loves building & detailing cities.

    3) It's too easily "gamed" - the rules were created as a backdrop to an adventure, with "flaws" the designer admitted too because they were made for a one-off and not as part of an ongoing game. Once players get familiar with the Kingmaker Kingdom-creation rules, I think they'll find them a bit monotinous and simple.

    4) Having read up on things, Kingdom-building is hard early on but then becomes a fairly simple matter. While this might be realistic, it's not good for characters to face their biggest challenges when they're noobs and...

    Porphyrogenitus, I too am a huge fan of Birthright. Can you point me to a link or send what you have converted to 3.5 or Pathfinder to my email which is in my profile. I'd greatly appreciate it.

    Grand Lodge

    Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
    PJ wrote:
    Porphyrogenitus wrote:
    Dale McCoy Jr wrote:
  • Which of the following would you like to see in an expansion? More building? More castle customization options? More environmental options (i.e. desert, planar), More kingdom events? Other?
  • Originally I looked into the Kingmaker AP because someone recommended it as a more recent "D&D Rulership" rules than Birthright.

    I'm a member of a dwindling but hard-core band of Birthright PBeM players, and was/am hoping to find something to expand the hobby, enrich the concept of "D&D/Pathfinder with Lords and Ladies."

    I think the Kingmaker rules as they stand are good for the AP, but even in your modified/expanded version, so far, somewhat campaign-specific.

    1) They rely, especially early on, in the PCs facing a situation that will rarely obtain - the ability to start a kingdom by gradually expanding in unclaimed (under-claimed) land. This isn't something characters could do in, say, Andoran, or even elsewhere in the River Kingdoms - outside the Stolen Lands, unclaimed hexes are going to be rare.

    2) The rules as written focus too much on construction. While arguably the Birthright rules that form my basis of comparison pay too little attention to constructing buildings (such that over the years various of us have tried fan-created monumental buildings, and the like), the Kingmaker rules pretty much boil down to constructing buildings - IMO, too much "Sim City" and not enough "Civ" - and this from someone who loves building & detailing cities.

    3) It's too easily "gamed" - the rules were created as a backdrop to an adventure, with "flaws" the designer admitted too because they were made for a one-off and not as part of an ongoing game. Once players get familiar with the Kingmaker Kingdom-creation rules, I think they'll find them a bit monotinous and simple.

    4) Having read up on things, Kingdom-building is hard early on but then becomes a fairly simple matter. While this might be realistic, it's not good for characters to face their biggest

    ...

    And Sir, I did get your email thanks. I'll make use of them.


    1 person marked this as a favorite.

    3.5E BRCS is available at www.birthright.net downloads here: http://www.birthright.net/forums/downloads.php?do=cat&id=6 (which includes many Feats and some Regent-specific skills)

    Some of the more variant rules that are currently being used in a PBeM are here: http://voltumna.cjb.net/legacyofblood/reign/rules.php

    And a PBeM using more traditional 3.xE characters is here: http://brpbem.net/

    A lot of that stuff could be mixed & matched with Kingmaker to create various Actions characters can engage in with monthly Rounds (which fits well with Kingmaker's monthly resolution system, too).

    P.S. I hope I didn't sound too critical in my initial post. While I originally looked into the AP for the Kingdom-running rules specifically, I found the AP as a whole to be very very interesting and well crafted, and the RAW for building a Kingdom in the Stolen Lands works very well with the AP, and I'll certainly be among those interested in seeing a revised & expanded version of the rules, suitable for wider use.

    I'd also be keen on seeing Golarion's cities in "Kingmaker" City District style - what Absalom, Korvosa, Oppara, Westcrown &tc look like as "Kingmaker" cities - especially since at the end of, say Council of Thieves path, PCs might have some influence if not governance in such a city or region.

    Grand Lodge

    Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
    Porphyrogenitus wrote:

    3.5E BRCS is available at www.birthright.net downloads here: http://www.birthright.net/forums/downloads.php?do=cat&id=6 (which includes many Feats and some Regent-specific skills)

    Some of the more variant rules that are currently being used in a PBeM are here: http://voltumna.cjb.net/legacyofblood/reign/rules.php

    And a PBeM using more traditional 3.xE characters is here: http://brpbem.net/

    A lot of that stuff could be mixed & matched with Kingmaker to create various Actions characters can engage in with monthly Rounds (which fits well with Kingmaker's monthly resolution system, too).

    P.S. I hope I didn't sound too critical in my initial post. While I originally looked into the AP for the Kingdom-running rules specifically, I found the AP as a whole to be very very interesting and well crafted, and the RAW for building a Kingdom in the Stolen Lands works very well with the AP, and I'll certainly be among those interested in seeing a revised & expanded version of the rules, suitable for wider use.

    I'd also be keen on seeing Golarion's cities in "Kingmaker" City District style - what Absalom, Korvosa, Oppara, Westcrown &tc look like as "Kingmaker" cities - especially since at the end of, say Council of Thieves path, PCs might have some influence if not governance in such a city or region.

    Ditto! and Thanks for the links.


    Dale McCoy Jr wrote:
  • How important is magic items to your economy? Do you view it as a problem?
  • One suggestion: Differentiate between Magic Items "earned" by the PCs (recovered in adventures, crafted by themselves, or however), for which they receive "full value" when sold (2 BP/ 8 BP / 12 BP), that way 1) they don't feel "cheated" when selling/converting their own items/treasure into BP this way and 2) there is a way to "boost" otherwise potentially low treasuries, and items generated by buildings (such as Blackmarkets, Academies, and Magic Shops), where they only receive some suitable fraction of that value.

    As it stands the RAW is problematic both from a gameplay sense, and from a realism sense. As JJ pointed out, the PCs can't just seize magic items that appear in their cities (without being tyrants), because those items aren't theirs to begin with - presumably they belong to some NPC crafter, tradesman, or itinerant who put them up for sale.

    But then it also doesn't make sense that the same value converts into the PC's treasury in a way equivalent to what they'd get if they owned the item outright themselves and sold it. Rather, they should get some proportion of the gross proceeds ("full value"), under 50% (which is what they get as "sellers of their own crap"), but non-negligable. This represents "national taxes."

    Probably this can be anywhere from 20-30% of the item's value (which is 40-60% of the sale price, or current BP intake).

    So "Minor" items sold this way would produce ~1 BP, "Medium" items ~4 BP, and "Major" items ~6 BP.

    I notice others seem to have "house-ruled" something similar, but as far as I've seen with a quick glance through postings, 1) not while differentiating between items "owned by the characters" outright and "items that just managed to pop up in their cities through no effort of their own," and which, realistically, form more of the background economy as a whole than the Kingdom's Treasury's Proceeds and 2) not with this rationale for the distinction.


    I look at the income from sales of magic items very differently. It's not a matter of the Kingdom simply swiping a percentage of sale price (either from building-generated or donated items), it's a measure of economic activity generated by the sale.

    When a magic item hits the markets, it attracts potential buyers. Most of those buyers (all but one) don't end up buying the item, but they do stay in the city for a bit, spending money on lodgings and services, possibly buying other, smaller items, etc.

    The actual buyer, if there is one, may well be a merchant or reseller, who is here to purchase the item, but is also buying and selling other trade goods, hiring guards, etc, etc. If you fail to sell the item, it simply did not have enough draw to affect your economy.

    I think you get into trouble any time you try to directly relate BP to money. You can infuse your economy with cash, generating BP (i.e. economic activity), or you can skim off the top, getting money but damaging the economy, but it's never really 'adding' or 'taking' BP directly.


    The real difference of opinion is we're looking at "economic activity" differently; I don't equate BP-to-cash; but I also don't equate "all economic activity = treasury activity," along the lines of "any time anyone does anything in the Kingdom, it becomes a resource available for the characters to command."

    Admittedly the way things are described it certainly can lead to that interpretation, but, IMO, then you're more of a Queen of an ant hive than ruling a Kingdom.

    Plus, if things really worked the way you describe, then there would be some income for even all the unsold magic items your cities have: cretinous NPCs come in, paw through the waerz, generating economic activity which equates to PBs directly and exclusively available for the PCs to develop their kingdoms with.

    I tend to think there's more (arguably much more) going on in the Kingdom's economy and activities than is directly accessible for the PCs to control in building their kingdom; the BPs they get are just the "skim" available to the rulers, their "cut of the take" in the form of taxation, *some* in-kind services owed to them as liege lords (which isn't 100%), and the like.

    If it's not, then the PCs are running a Kingdom unlike that of any other(s) in Golarion, and certainly not one they would want to spend any time in whatsoever if they weren't in charge of it. Look at it as you would if the players *weren't* the rulers, but instead were engaging in normal activities - and everything they do (everything, not just, say, 20-30% or so) - gets directed by some guy with a crown.

    Furthermore, if you look at the rest of Golarion (or anywhere else for that matter), not nearly every action everyone takes gets transformed into resources available for the rulers to direct into new infrastructure construction projects (or armies); "'Shovel-ready' was not as shovel-ready as we expected," as Obama put it.

    BP that the characters receive available for them to use as inputs into developing their Kingdom is just some fraction of total economic activity. Further, interpreting it this way (the correct way) gives a solid rationale for fixing one of the aspects of the current Kingmaker rules that are widely considered "broken" (or at least a bit broken. . .or at least too easily exploitable), without "robbing" PCs of the benefit of items they obtain from their own activities (adventures, crafting, and the like which can then be used to "infuse [their] economy with cash" - with "THEIR" in this case being "the entire amount they infuse is available for them to direct, naturally, since it is their own resources."

    BP just represents that fraction of the economy available for their direct command. If it were otherwise, then all of Golarion's economics revolve more around magic item sales than I think most people envision - and the one "unusual" country where it does isn't unusual anymore.

    Grand Lodge

    Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
    Porphyrogenitus wrote:

    The real difference of opinion is we're looking at "economic activity" differently; I don't equate BP-to-cash; but I also don't equate "all economic activity = treasury activity," along the lines of "any time anyone does anything in the Kingdom, it becomes a resource available for the characters to command."

    Admittedly the way things are described it certainly can lead to that interpretation, but, IMO, then you're more of a Queen of an ant hive than ruling a Kingdom.

    Plus, if things really worked the way you describe, then there would be some income for even all the unsold magic items your cities have: cretinous NPCs come in, paw through the waerz, generating economic activity which equates to PBs directly and exclusively available for the PCs to develop their kingdoms with.

    I tend to think there's more (arguably much more) going on in the Kingdom's economy and activities than is directly accessible for the PCs to control in building their kingdom; the BPs they get are just the "skim" available to the rulers, their "cut of the take" in the form of taxation, *some* in-kind services owed to them as liege lords (which isn't 100%), and the like.

    If it's not, then the PCs are running a Kingdom unlike that of any other(s) in Golarion, and certainly not one they would want to spend any time in whatsoever if they weren't in charge of it. Look at it as you would if the players *weren't* the rulers, but instead were engaging in normal activities - and everything they do (everything, not just, say, 20-30% or so) - gets directed by some guy with a crown.

    Furthermore, if you look at the rest of Golarion (or anywhere else for that matter), not nearly every action everyone takes gets transformed into resources available for the rulers to direct into new infrastructure construction projects (or armies); "'Shovel-ready' was not as shovel-ready as we expected," as Obama put it.

    BP that the characters receive available for them to use as inputs into developing their Kingdom is just some fraction of...

    Great argument. What would your recommendation be to the Kingdom Building rules of Pathfinder.


    Actually, I agree that BP does not represent all economic activity, only the portion that the rulers have the direct capability to influence. For that matter, I'd abstract it a level further.

    Much of the 'BP Treasury' is IMO, not gold or valuables at all, but is instead political capital. The Duke does not (as a general rule) say, "Put a shop in the Northwest District of my capital", or "Build a Noble Villa and find someone to live in it." What he does is manipulate the tax laws, grant charters and perhaps redirect guard patrols so as to encourage a shopping district to spring up, or to lure one of the country gentry to build a manor in the city. In these cases, the BP 'spent' is his manipulation of the economy behind by his political power to make things happen.

    Parks, Castles, Town Halls...these are likely direct spends from the treasury. But which is more likely, that the King emptied his treasury in order to build a Cathedral to Iomedae, or that he granted a land charter and called for a holiday festival during which volunteers can help with the construction of the Cathedral. Both the charter and the holiday have a short-term negative effect on the economy (hence BP spent), but little of it is 'writing a check'.

    This is just how we've been playing it, and it's worked pretty well for us so far.


    Ramarren wrote:
    Much of the 'BP Treasury' is IMO, not gold or valuables at all, but is instead political capital.
    I'd agree with that and rather than quibble with anything I'll draw out of our discussion a suggestion for the expansion:
    PJ wrote:
    Great argument. What would your recommendation be to the Kingdom Building rules of Pathfinder.

    Provide more flavor/detail about just what it means to do X or Y in your Kingdom, details and suggestions for variant flavors for each Leadership Role as well.

    In Birthright some of the accessories, such as "The Book of Regency," did "the anatomy of a law holding" or "temple holding" or "guild holding" - describing what sort of flavors it might take and several varieties of flavor.

    For the PF Kingdom Building Rules there could be a discussion - it doesn't have to be long - of just what it means to "decide to construct an X" in the Kingdom, and the rationales for what it entails including why the BPs aren't directly at the PC's finger tips (such that dipping too much into it represents seizing stuff). This then would easily differentiate between "things the characters own directly, themselves" (such as any magic items or other loot they donate to the Kingdom, and thuss might receive more of a direct net benefit from) and things they don't.

    Like said - Castles and Palaces belong to the rulers (not necessarily as their private property but certainly as "national/state" property - and, heck, this being medieval, it does amount to "The Lord's Demesne"), but the town Brothel probably isn't "theirs" and whatever rake-off they get from it is in the form of taxes, protection money, or whatnot. Much of this would be in the form of flavor-text differentiations between various categories of Kingdom Development Items (buildings, land, resources, and the like), which then might lead to explanations of why they get X rather than Y direct benefit from structures of N sort (mostly "privately owned") vs. structures/items of S sort (things mostly "state owned/player owned").

    So then there might be at least two broad categories of developments (buildings and otherwise): Ones where the *players* are deciding what development gets done in their Kingdom, but the *characters* aren't necessarily directly involved, and others where the general presumption is the characters really are (these would include all those that are generally considered to fall under the responsibility of normal government activities - city walls, castles, watchtowers, most town halls [though in a decentralized/chaotic Kingdom with vassals and semi-independent "chartered cities," the PC rulers might not be commanding, but other government officials; anyhow they still fall into this broad category), probably most roads, the Royal Palace (if all the PCs can afford at a certain stage is a Mansion or Villa, then they might be the ones commanding that, too, at least for one such structure), and the like.

    Also an expansion to the Kingmaker rules should, IMO, cover just what PC Rulers can and can't do with NPC "assets" of their Kingdom. a Ruler potentially has a variety of Henchmen/women - just look at some of the ones that (no spoilers) serve the King of Pitax, and throughout the AP not only is it possible that PCs recruit various NPCs to their banner, it's suggested.

    On the one hand one wants PCs to feel like rulers - and have their Royal Champions, and the like - and of a sort that aren't so completely helpless as to be worse than useless. But on the other hand a rein (not reign) needs to be kept on this so NPCs don't become the heroes and/or aren't used by the PCs to do the job of heroes.

    Though. . .that said. . .depending on how big the expansion gets, there might be rules or suggestions on how Players could "double-hat" it: have their "main PC" who is in a leadership role, and one or more "subalterns" that they run on side quests/adventures. (That's not usually most people's cup of tea, but I've known some groups that have done it).

    Osirion

    Porphyrogenitus wrote:

    Also an expansion to the Kingmaker rules should, IMO, cover just what PC Rulers can and can't do with NPC "assets" of their Kingdom. a Ruler potentially has a variety of Henchmen/women - just look at some of the ones that (no spoilers) serve the King of Pitax, and throughout the AP not only is it possible that PCs recruit various NPCs to their banner, it's suggested.

    On the one hand one wants PCs to feel like rulers - and have their Royal Champions, and the like - and of a sort that aren't so completely helpless as to be worse than useless. But on the other hand a rein (not reign) needs to be kept on this so NPCs don't become the heroes and/or aren't used by the PCs to do the job of heroes.

    I agree wholeheartedly. I tried to demonstrate this to my party by having raw materials, laborers, and a specific # of days of expert crafters (pre-paid) show up when the party got their 50 BP initially. This was in the hope they would not see the BP as chests of gold sitting in a royal treasury every turn. Lately BP have shown up more as political favors or influence with merchants as well(be nice to the wool merchant and he tells his friend the clothier to relocate to the new kingdom).

    The second one was a bit trickier for me, since my party had a bit of trouble transitioning from adventurers into leaders of a colony. I tended to have NPCs like Kesten and Oleg be cooperative with the party and take initiative on their behalf if they saw things that needed doing, sort of filling in the gaps so they didn't fall on their faces too much. They kept wanting to consult with the party about their activiities, and when the party engaged them, they became part of the building process. A few times they brushed them off, and now they are having to deal with a few difficulties caused by too much NPC independent thought unchecked over a long period.

    Some things I would be interested in hearing about from other GMs:

    What things represent BP to your party?

    Were all your NPCs lower level than the party, or were some comparable?

    Do you have much politics in your game? How much do they influence kingdom building?


    redcelt32 wrote:
    The second one was a bit trickier for me, since my party had a bit of trouble transitioning from adventurers into leaders of a colony. I tended to have NPCs like Kesten and Oleg be cooperative with the party and take initiative on their behalf if they saw things that needed doing, sort of filling in the gaps so they didn't fall on their faces too much.
    Oleg's wife is good for that, too, which is one reason it's recommended she take the "Councilor" job .
    Quote:
    What things represent BP to your party?

    To them? Or for them? PCs tend to envision piles of treasure no matter what and one of the important aspects of the Kingdom-running thing is weening them from it. (I still lapse into talking that way a lot).

    This is a really good summary of what they should be trained as representing BPs though:

    Quote:
    I tried to demonstrate this to my party by having raw materials, laborers, and a specific # of days of expert crafters (pre-paid) show up when the party got their 50 BP initially. This was in the hope they would not see the BP as chests of gold sitting in a royal treasury every turn. Lately BP have shown up more as political favors or influence with merchants as well(be nice to the wool merchant and he tells his friend the clothier to relocate to the new kingdom).
    Concise, which is one thing I fail at.
    Quote:
    Were all your NPCs lower level than the party, or were some comparable?

    In general, from BR experience and other such, I've found that helpfully friendly NPCs/assistants should be 2 or more levels lower than the lowest-level party member. Sometimes there can be exceptions where they win the loyalty of someone at or even slightly above their power-level, but such people should level at a lower rate than the PCs (so eventually these guys will fall behind the characters. In any event they should never be seen as tools to do the job of the heroes - the PCs - for them). Some helpful NPCs might never level at all, or very slowly.

    But key helpful/friendly NPCs should never (or rarely) become seen by the party as a hindrance/burden. Sure the PCs are the protectors of their realm but as rulers they get to have help in that; including, when safe in their own palace, protectors/bodyguards that are actually useful at their job - not in *entirely* making things too safe for the party, but not so woeful that the PCs end up feeling they're bodyguarding their own guards.

    Rule of thumb: for any of the Leadership Roles that the PCs do not fill themselves, they should be happy to have the NPC who fills it as their allies. Sure there should be occasional intrigues among the NPCs, and disagreements between them that the PCs get to adjudicate, but it shouldn't seem like a trial by ordeal for them, and they shouldn't be constantly envying the kind of Generals, Marshals, Wardens, royal champions &tc that other Kingdoms have while they seem to have to scrimp by with 0-level Hopeless Character Nobody's, scrubs, and second-stringers. (Unless that's a theme the PCs like and want, that is). (This IMO is a real balancing act, populating the Royal Court with useful, but not overwhelmingly great, non-player characters). IMO any expansion should devote a section to helping DMs achieve this sort of balance.

    Quote:
    Do you have much politics in your game? How much do they influence kingdom building?

    Caviate: I haven't actually run Kingmaker yet. I hope to have the opportunity. What attracts me to it is the fact that it's a 3.xE/PF way to have political intrigues, adventures, and the like. If I ever get a chance to run it, or play it, politics will probably play a big role in determining the shape of the Kingdom's development. It should be more than "we'll grab this hex 'cause we need more farmland. We found a resource there so we'll grab a line of hexes to it so we can develop it, this river and lake looks nice on the map [a big draw for me - geographically pretty areas], lets develop the hexes around it" - all that stuff can and should play a role but so too should be "we need to shore up a border here because of the machinations of our neighbors. We want to make sure we get this land before so and so does. We need a buffer between this and that. The people of Hex Y are a problem, we need to bring them under our sway so they'll stop being a problem. Lady Leia has sent us a message saying "Oh, PCs-wan, you're our only hope," and has offered to be our vassal if we will protect her lands, so we're going to absorb those hexes."

    Politics would be what PCs can and should do in the time between AP encounters, and will be what makes their Kingdom fun to continue to play in (even if with heirs) after the AP ends, or in other contexts (which I assume the expansion is for - allowing people to use an expanded set of rules to develop and run Kingdoms outside of the Kingmaker AP).

    1 to 50 of 60 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | next > last >>
    Paizo / Messageboards / Paizo Publishing / Pathfinder® / Pathfinder Adventure Path / Kingmaker / Kingdom Building Survey All Messageboards

    Want to post a reply? Sign in.

    ©2002–2014 Paizo Inc.®. Need help? Email customer.service@paizo.com or call 425-250-0800 during our business hours: Monday–Friday, 10 AM–5 PM Pacific Time. View our privacy policy. Paizo Inc., Paizo, the Paizo golem logo, Pathfinder, the Pathfinder logo, Pathfinder Society, GameMastery, and Planet Stories are registered trademarks of Paizo Inc., and Pathfinder Roleplaying Game, Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Pathfinder Adventure Path, Pathfinder Adventure Card Game, Pathfinder Player Companion, Pathfinder Modules, Pathfinder Tales, Pathfinder Battles, Pathfinder Online, PaizoCon, RPG Superstar, The Golem's Got It, Titanic Games, the Titanic logo, and the Planet Stories planet logo are trademarks of Paizo Inc. Dungeons & Dragons, Dragon, Dungeon, and Polyhedron are registered trademarks of Wizards of the Coast, Inc., a subsidiary of Hasbro, Inc., and have been used by Paizo Inc. under license. Most product names are trademarks owned or used under license by the companies that publish those products; use of such names without mention of trademark status should not be construed as a challenge to such status.