I think we can be reasonably sure there will be an announcement for a playtest coming soon this GenCon, despite the ReMaster, or perhaps especially because of the ReMaster. Returning to designing and playtesting two new classes now is a good time with the work on the Kineticist finished. Over the last few months, I have noticed what appear to be the occasional hints of what could be someday when the developers talk about class design in their videos and posts on the internet. Am I delusional... out of my mind... probably; but, that is beside the point!
I also think the the OGL fiasco and the subsequent rise of the ORC license and the ReMaster may have even influenced them in regards to this, too. Without the chains of the OGL and SRD to keep them beholden to sacred cows and "tradition", I think they can redefine the fantasy of many class concepts and appropriate some terminology for reuse in a new lexicon of class design. For example, now that they are doing away with the eight arcane schools of magic, they are possibly free to create something like a Necromancer, Enchanter, and/or Conjurer classes without a strict association with the Wizard class, if that is something they can see as a viable class design for.
The Paizo designers have mentioned previously that when it comes to 2nd edition they would like to create new classes when right inspiration strikes them and not just rehash old favorites that come with baggage, like the Inquisitor, or don't necessarily bring anything beyond a one-note ability, like the Bloodrager or the Slayer. I could see them creating classes that can focus on class abilities that combine economy of action with effects and flavor that are limited in quantity for strength and number of entities for conjurations, invocations, summons, and animations when it comes to simulating things like animating a few undead, making pacts with a couple of low-tier devils, conjuring a couple of constructed entities, and summoning several other extra-planar creatures that are not eidolons or come straight out of the Bestiary or Monster Core. They could be mechanical expressions of multiple monsters in a manner similar to troops, invocations, or even simulate effects similar to some of the kineticist's impulse effects. Any such designs could introduce elements of things they are learning from the removal of alignment, addition of sanctification, and the rejiggering of other game elements introduced in this ReMaster (maybe even do something a little more with Edicts and Anathema with concepts for pact magic).
So, I think it is rather possible and likely that we will see something like a Shaman and/or Conjurer, and/or a Necromancer class, maybe even the Medium or the Shifter class I have come across several folks predicting (including me). What do you guys think? What classes are we going to see announced at this coming GenCon for the next playtest?
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I'm hoping for shifter as something more actually martial than what a wild shape druid is, either wave caster or just not a caster to fully focus on the shifting for stuff fantasy (although part of me thinks that a theoretical shifter class will focus on more of the wild morph style of shifting, transforming parts to do things rather than full shape shifting)
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If it's a class, I'd bet good money it's a Shaman - it fits Tian Xia and any future Arcadia plans both.
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I’d be really surprised if they do do a class playtest. Happy to be surprised.
Hopefully a new class we haven’t seen before.
Shaman is almost a lock. Shifter would work with the theme, but we will see. Just over a week now.
Since we got a Lot of Dragon empires stuff incoming next year I could also Imagine something that moves anstep in that direction
So Shaman/animist and similar stuff comes to mind
We probably not going to See anything purely regional like Samurai or Ninjas (mit to mention that those are really easy to emulate already)
But I wouldn't scoff at it either If there's an opportunity to add new fun to the Game :P
Also with the kineticist about out I could imagine a sort of weapon master (kensei) character who makes a Lot of use of His class DC for new Tricks and stunts, although that could also be an archetype
Now that I think about it, it is kind of easier to find a uniqueenew flavor for casters then for martials, especially considering that Fighter alone can depict a Huge variety
Shifter seems like it would be something they could do via archetype. Just give it wild morph and wild shape. Probabaly without the +2 Status to attack. And the the various wild shape upgrade feats plus a few unique ones for ooze form and similar.
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Giving the Shifter any spellcasting or Focus point stuff would definitely disappoint me. Making it an Archetype would as well, as it is a concept that is definitely big enough for a full class and could easily have something like Druid orders or Sorcerer bloodlines where how you shift or what you shift into could be different. Kind of like the archetypes from the 1e Shifter.
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I expect one class or no class playtest if they're doing a book with shakeup mechanics (like a mythic book or a class archetype book).
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Come to think of it, any playest would use the remaster rules. So it'll we do get a playtest we might also get some more information on upcoming changes alongside it so we can actually use the playtest. Much like they did with the recent remaster PDF for rage of elements.
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If we get a Mythic playtest, we definitely won't get a class playtest. I'd be fine with that, because there will be plenty to do just with the rules.
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Considering how badly mythic was supported I would not Bet in anything in that direction
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Honestly I don't expect a class playtest this year due still have many remaster books and other erratas needing to be done before try to implement a new class. But they may try to compensate in next year with something new.
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Giving the Shifter any spellcasting or Focus point stuff would definitely disappoint me. Making it an Archetype would as well, as it is a concept that is definitely big enough for a full class and could easily have something like Druid orders or Sorcerer bloodlines where how you shift or what you shift into could be different. Kind of like the archetypes from the 1e Shifter.
It doesn't help that we already have a class that can function as a shifter in combat with the animal barbarian, and wild shape focus spells are pretty available to other classes already.
That said, kineticist was a primal class and if another isn't coming out in call of the wild, I wouldn't bank on a 3rd book that will be primal themed. I wouldn't bank on getting a new class at all, honestly, and kind of hope they don't so they can focus on getting Player Core 2 right.
But if they were going to do it... Maybe some kind of minion mancy class? Summons have their place, particularly at low levels, but they aren't reliable enough to use as a primary style. Rituals aren't either and are costly to boot. Maybe you could introduce swarm or troop mechanics to get the feeling of controlling your own personal army. Call it the animator, and give it subclasses for undead, animated objects, animals, and... Something occult. Maybe dreams? Could be a tie in for Lovecraftian aberrations?
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Giving the Shifter any spellcasting or Focus point stuff would definitely disappoint me. Making it an Archetype would as well, as it is a concept that is definitely big enough for a full class and could easily have something like Druid orders or Sorcerer bloodlines where how you shift or what you shift into could be different. Kind of like the archetypes from the 1e Shifter.It doesn't help that we already have a class that can function as a shifter in combat with the animal barbarian, and wild shape focus spells are pretty available to other classes already.
I would not say animal barbarian really gives great shifter class fantasy, especially when I want to have it be part of the out of combat toolkit and as for wild shape I get to constantly read that druid can't have it be any stronger because well that's a full caster and running it multiclass with a martial (monk in this case, a strength of thousands game with druid free archetype) the half level feats ended up becoming a problem to me especially when part of the fun to me is having the variety in things to turn into
I thing that get a Shifter will be good. But I don't know if need to be a class. Probably an archetype that allows to get access to Wild Form feats 2 levels below like other specialized archetypes just solves the question.
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to be honest, shifter being added as an archetype would be such a disappointment that I'd wish it wasn't added to the game at all so I could at least have my hope for a future proper shifting class that isn't tied down by full caster
I would not say animal barbarian really gives great shifter class fantasy, especially when I want to have it be part of the out of combat toolkitGiving the Shifter any spellcasting or Focus point stuff would definitely disappoint me. Making it an Archetype would as well, as it is a concept that is definitely big enough for a full class and could easily have something like Druid orders or Sorcerer bloodlines where how you shift or what you shift into could be different. Kind of like the archetypes from the 1e Shifter.It doesn't help that we already have a class that can function as a shifter in combat with the animal barbarian, and wild shape focus spells are pretty available to other classes already.
Yeah, sorry, that was the point I was trying to make. A focus spell based archetype wouldn't offer that much we can't do already, and people probably don't want it to be essentially limited to one minute bursts of animal form.
Hoping for a totally new class myself than just a reboot of one of the old classes.
Tom
to be honest, shifter being added as an archetype would be such a disappointment that I'd wish it wasn't added to the game at all so I could at least have my hope for a future proper shifting class that isn't tied down by full caster
Shifter as an archetype is easier to do and will be portable between both martials and casters. Its something that even I can do pretty easily:
You gain the wild shape focus spell, which lets you transform into a variety of forms that you can expand with shifter or druid feats. If some of your own statistics is better than the form use it instead.
Also this archetype would get access to all other druid shapeshifting feats (Bizarre Transformation, Elemental Shape, Ferocious Shape, Form Control, Insect Shape, Monstrosity Shape, Plant Shape, Reactive Transformation, Soaring Shape, Thousand Faces) 2 levels higher like other specific archetypes does.
Also there's still room on the page for Paizo to come up with some new feats like she did with Beastmaster.
A Shifter archetype is something that I don't know why Paizo designers choose to not do once this is pretty easier to do, it's well demanded, flexible and isn't a game breaking.
Maybe they are reserving to do it as a class but being honest I think that an archetype is way more flexible.
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to be honest, shifter being added as an archetype would be such a disappointment that I'd wish it wasn't added to the game at all so I could at least have my hope for a future proper shifting class that isn't tied down by full casterShifter as an archetype is easier to do and will be portable between both martials and casters. Its something that even I can do pretty easily:
You gain the wild shape focus spell, which lets you transform into a variety of forms that you can expand with shifter or druid feats. If some of your own statistics is better than the form use it instead.Also this archetype would get access to all other druid shapeshifting feats (Bizarre Transformation, Elemental Shape, Ferocious Shape, Form Control, Insect Shape, Monstrosity Shape, Plant Shape, Reactive Transformation, Soaring Shape, Thousand Faces) 2 levels higher like other specific archetypes does.
Also there's still room on the page for Paizo to come up with some new feats like she did with Beastmaster.
A Shifter archetype is something that I don't know why Paizo designers choose to not do once this is pretty easier to do, it's well demanded, flexible and isn't a game breaking.
Maybe they are reserving to do it as a class but being honest I think that an archetype is way more flexible.
Check the PF2 Shifter thread for many many different ideas on what a PF2 Shifter should be able to do and how it could be done. Your idea covers a few of that, but definitely not all things people wanted for their Shifter PC.
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I question the value of a class playtest at such a strange point in the game’s development cycle. I desperately want to playtest a shaman, but if it is a caster, what spells will it be using? If the playtest happens before the player core 1 is even out, it just feels like the data gathered is going to be of less value than waiting until winter.
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I question the value of a class playtest at such a strange point in the game’s development cycle. I desperately want to playtest a shaman, but if it is a caster, what spells will it be using? If the playtest happens before the player core 1 is even out, it just feels like the data gathered is going to be of less value than waiting until winter.
Just integrate a summary of Remastered changes that impact the class, like the one for RoE, and done.
But I would see it for one class, not for two.
And I think it would be a good way to keep the community invested in PF2 during the transition period and maybe even more accepting of Remastered.
It would require a minimum of making available every spell in one tradition (maybe more), as well as enough magical items to cover 20 levels of play, so essentially all the magic items.
And then the data you collect is going to be a hodge-podge of players using OGL options and ORC or ORC designed options, and while that could be situation that PF2 is going to face for the rest of its edition cycle, I think it could muddle the data if a bunch of feedback about the fun of the class and its ability to perform its expected roles is mixed between players playing with certain options feeling one way and players not playing with those options feeling another.
It is not impossible that it happens anyway, it just seems like October is not that far away and it would be a lot more useful to playtest a class with the full set of remastery rules in players hands than the confusing situation we currently have, where people are arguing about how effective certain changes will be without knowing how all the pieces fit together.
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Well being announced and having it go live just might be in 2 different timelines, that should work and as I recall the books are off to the printers already it should work if playtest starts in Nov/Dec :)
just a thought that things are not just one thing or another, it can be flex as well, or so I hope anyways, or could be something else as well!!
Tom
Yeah I dunno, with core 2 coming out next gencon, I'm not convinced we'll get a new class? Maybe later in the year next year but I doubt we'll get the traditional gencon release
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Given the history of playtest classes of being generally weak with useful feedback being more about the potential gameplay loop and pain points there, it probably doesn't matter if it's before or after the remaster.
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The problem with the inquisitor is that nobody's quite sure what it is. Like the 1e version of the class was pulled in a lot of different thematic directions.
I'd rather see the Shaman and Shifter, TBH.
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I'm really not sure that "Shaman" is problematic in this context. As I understand it, there's really two ways in which the term is bad and both are earth specific:
1) Modern people doing "neo-pagan shamanism" run the risk of "being culturally appropriative" (in the same way that a lot of what goes on here is cultural appropriation, I guess.)
2) Using it as a grouping term for "primitive" spiritual beliefs in a reductive fashion is a hallmark of colonialism.
But in a roleplaying game we actually want a term that applies to the holy man, the wise woman, the medicine man,the spirit talker, the sage, the curandero, the Jhākri, the Juju Doctor, the Sangoma, the Dukun, etc. that lots of different cultures have as a key part in those people's religious traditions, and nothing like this is supported by either the "Cleric" or "Oracle" classes, IMO. I don't know if it's any more problematic to use a grouping term in a game context like this that describes both "a Siberian-themed spiritual leader" and "an South-American-themed spiritual leader" than it is to use "cleric" for both "someone inspired by a Priest of Apollo" and "a Vedic Priest."
The game absolutely needs more diversity in "ways people worship" than the current system of "devote yourself to a god" or "worship nature".
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Personally I'd be very surprised if there's a new class to playtest considering they're currently busy revamping the entire system. I enjoy playtests, but that seems like alot to ask right now. Then again, maybe I'm wrong?
Well it seems like we had a book on Arcane, Primal, and Occult so perhaps the next book would be more divine in nature? Maybe we could see the Inqusitor make its debut in 2e along with some divine archetypes. Hopefully we could see a Sin Eater archetype in such a book.Thaumaturge is already inquisitor, I believe. It's a fusion of that and occultist.
I'd buy a rerelease of shaman though.
Ugh Thaumaturge being Charisma based was such a disappointment for me. Reinforces the whole "Why be smart when you can be pretty?" idea. I mean, didn't we cover that territory already with Sorcerer, Bard and Oracle? Thaumaturge should've been Intelligence or Wisdom based, at least imo.
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Personally I'd be very surprised if there's a new class to playtest considering they're currently busy revamping the entire system. I enjoy playtests, but that seems like alot to ask right now. Then again, maybe I'm wrong?
I expect the "next new class" was well underway before the decision to break from the OGL was made. Like the Kineticist Playtest Analysis blog was in October of last year, and the ORC announcement was in late January.
The next new drop of classes might be delayed though.
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Remember it's not only the remaster books, paizo has to figure out what to do about almost every book released so far. Some won't need a ton of attention (guns and gears) but others will need a lot (secrets of magic).
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Remember it's not only the remaster books, paizo has to figure out what to do about almost every book released so far. Some won't need a ton of attention (guns and gears) but others will need a lot (secrets of magic).
They have been working on Remastered very intensively for months now. The first books are already done. I think a single new class playtest could be on the plate.
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The problem with the inquisitor is that nobody's quite sure what it is. Like the 1e version of the class was pulled in a lot of different thematic directions.
I'd rather see the Shaman and Shifter, TBH.
I think Divine skilled attacker is a pretty good summary of the theme for Inquisitor based on the PF2 Inquisitor thread.
But a James Jacobs post from some weeks ago (IIRC) implied that such a class would get a new name in any case and that it was not planned for the moment.
Personally I'd be very surprised if there's a new class to playtest considering they're currently busy revamping the entire system. I enjoy playtests, but that seems like alot to ask right now. Then again, maybe I'm wrong?I expect the "next new class" was well underway before the decision to break from the OGL was made. Like the Kineticist Playtest Analysis blog was in October of last year, and the ORC announcement was in late January.
The next new drop of classes might be delayed though.
I think you're right. Player Core 2 comes out next July, meaning it's almost certainly the GenCon book. The playtest we're getting would have been for the GenCon book, meaning that the book it's in will come out in the fall the way Guns & Gears did. We would have gotten the Tian Xia books in November if not for Player Core 1 and GM Core, so there's precedent. I think we'll still get the playtest at the usual time, so the developers will be able to take a bit more time finishing it up. They deserve it after the whole situation!
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Interestingly enough, we have not yet gotten any kind of heads-up that a playtest (class or otherwise) is even happening - those usually were given ~2 weeks ahead, and we are now exactly a week away from GenCon with nothing to go on.
That said, Paizo seems to have hinted enough at the possibility of a non-class playtest that I think we might just get that this year, but I suppose we'll find out soon enough.
Two new classes then!