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First, note that James Jacobs has taken things in a far more 'adult' direction than anyone prior in d20/OGL that wasn't Valar pres; those ogres arenot your Shrek drek. He's not at the wheel, though, so there's only so much the mighty Tyranosaur is allowed to get away with. And even HE couldn't keep the Powers that Be from turning brothels into dance halls.
Secondly, while I understand the impulse to roll eyes and drop snark-deuces on this thread, remember that this is the same game system that includes nymphs and satyrs and, last I checked, people had no problems with their overt lasciviousness. Or speculations on elven reproduction and its relationship to the development and maturation rates of offspring. And I would like to think that the very existence of this topic shows that people can regard sexuality in ways that are not purely the purview of succubi and followers of Lamashtu.
Third, this is a silly topic, but I tend to call 'wing it' on that front. I don't squick easy. I don't freak easy. And given I've actually done up a relatively clinical bit of fiction at some point detailing out the natures, weights, tastes, and consistencies of dwarven breast milk (among other things), I'm sure as heck not going to judge.
Creative Director
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And even before Hook Mountain! Go check out "Porphyry House Horror" back in Dungeon magazine, or the Book of Vile Darkness spells I designed for Dragon #300!
That said...
Things like pregnancy and fertility and heat and all that don't really have a place in Pathfinder's core rules. They DO have a place in the world, of course, but whether or not any one GM chooses to include this type of content in his/her game is up to them and the GM's players.
I honestly wouldn't call this a silly topic at all, but it's certainly one that attracts silly responses.
(And for what it's worth, they're still brothels in Golarion. I'm actually really quite disappointed that the design team/management didn't have the courage to call them that in Ultimate Campaign, but I guess it's just a sign of the times that we can go into great detail about violence but as soon as anyone talks about sex... the world freaks out...)
Anyway.
As for rules and the like on how some races might or might not go into heat, until we do a larger book about catfolk or whatever, that's gonna have to remain in the hands of individual GMs to decide.
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Just a quick question, do the more... beastial races... go into heat?
... ew. This might be the first kitsune thread that I don't want to post in. Oh well, time to man up, I guess.
Short Answer: Only if your GM says they do.
Long Answer: ... do you really want me to give you a long answer? Do you REALLY want ME to give you a long answer? <sigh> Okay.
Before we talk about how this might apply to a fantasy race, we need to talk about the estrous cycle, which is the fancy word for "heat." Now, I'm not going to go too far into detail considering that everything I'm about to say is easily research-able via a Google search, but how it ends up working is that most mammals either have a menstrual cycle (aka human females) or an estrous cycle (like foxes / cats / etc.). Species with estrous cycles are only really sexually active while they are "in heat," and that depends mostly on the critter in question. Foxes have seasonal cycles and typically mate in the spring so their pups can be born in the summertime while sheep and goats mate in the fall. This is known as "long-day breeders" for spring-types (the days grow longer) and "short-day breeders" for fall-types (the days grow shorter). Some animals, like domesticated dogs, have what is called a diestrous cycle, meaning that they go into heat twice a year, usually during the long and short seasons.
So, with all that backstory in mind, let's grab some of the mammalian bestial races for some notes. Don't forget that "bestial" isn't the best term to use, because estrous cycles are very much a mammalian thing.
Quick List of Mammalian Race-Alike Cycles
Catfolk: Seasonal, Fall & Winter, are also known to spontaneously enter heat.
Kitsune: Seasonal, Spring & Summer.
Ratfolk: Rapid and somewhat spontaneous, research indicates that high frequency of periodic lighting.
Vanara: Most primates menstruate in a similar manner to humans.
One more thing to note, monthly bleeding is associated with all types of mammalian pregnancies, not just the menstrual cycle, but animals that have estrous cycles possess membranes that actually absorb and re-assimilate the lost blood for its hormones, so said blood never actually leaves the female's body.
Personally, I think its up to your personal tastes. Having a heat cycle could lead to some interesting cultural quirks for these races, but it could also come across as being some of creepy and "rated R" to some players. Especially if you're American, as a culture we don't handle references to sexuality very well and this sort of thing is very likely to leave many players feeling a bit icky. That said, here are some suggestions:
Plan Holidays Around the Cycle. Most cultures are going to see having children as a good thing, so if you belong to a race where everyone gets kinky and has kids at the same times of the year, then you're probably going to see the cycle reflected in religion. Gods of children and birth are also going to likely be associated with the months that the race enters its estrous cycle. This is actually where the concept of goddesses like Persephone and Demeter being goddesses of earth and fertility came from, plants "are born" from the soil in spring just when many animals are being born as well.
Probably Scent-Focused. Remember, males technically do not go into heat. Most male animals are alerted to the coming of the estrous cycle by way of smell, and that scent is a cue for their bodies to also start preparing for the coming cycle. If you're a dude who doesn't want to be bothered by all of this, someone would have probably figured out to simply stay away from women for several months out of the year.
Relationships are Difficult. Because different people will likely enter heat at different times, it would likely be extremely difficult to commit to a relationship during those months. Depending on the strength of the pheromone, its possible that a guy who has been happily married for years would be compelled to run out and track down a lady in heat. You would expect members of such a race to adapt to this accordingly by either finding ways to dilute or hamper their body's ability to produce said pheromone or maybe committed relationships simply don't work the same way for such races as they do for humans. Maybe its all creepy twilight and given enough exposure, mates bond with one another via scent.
As you can see, this quickly gets really freaky to talk about from a scientific standpoint (pun completely intended).
Why did you have Cosmo make me give you the long answer? :(
Things like pregnancy and fertility and heat and all that don't really have a place in Pathfinder's core rules. They DO have a place in the world, of course, but whether or not any one GM chooses to include this type of content in his/her game is up to them and the GM's players.
I think that full-out rules are a little too much. (I don't think I need to know the exact ability score penalties a pregnant lady suffers personally, just that she is probably nauseated and exhausted is enough for me.)
I honestly wouldn't call this a silly topic at all, but it's certainly one that attracts silly responses.
I tried my best not to be silly in my response. :(
(And for what it's worth, they're still brothels in Golarion. I'm actually really quite disappointed that the design team/management didn't have the courage to call them that in Ultimate Campaign, but I guess it's just a sign of the times that we can go into great detail about violence but as soon as anyone talks about sex... the world freaks out...)
In regards to the Kingdom Building rules, its actually rather jarring because it seems to have been a last-minute changes. A LOT of places throughout the book still refer to the building as a brothel; for example, all buildings that would discount a brothel still refer to it as a brothel instead of a Dance Hall.
As for rules and the like on how some races might or might not go into heat, until we do a larger book about catfolk or whatever, that's gonna have to remain in the hands of individual GMs to decide.
Again, I personally feel that information like that works better in the realm of flavor text and not actual game rules. It could end up being in the same vein as the age category rules, where people don't acquire smarts simply for getting older. While a positive generalization, the idea that all old people are smarter in age then they were in youth is still an incredibly broad generalization.
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And even before Hook Mountain! Go check out "Porphyry House Horror" back in Dungeon magazine, or the Book of Vile Darkness spells I designed for Dragon #300!
I am remiss in not noting those, as well, though I didn't haev all of my resources with me at the time.
That said...
Things like pregnancy and fertility and heat and all that don't really have a place in Pathfinder's core rules. They DO have a place in the world, of course, but whether or not any one GM chooses to include this type of content in his/her game is up to them and the GM's players.
I honestly wouldn't call this a silly topic at all, but it's certainly one that attracts silly responses.
That is how I should have phrased it, truthfully, and I'm glad you made the corrective distinction. While I don't think it's out of place for the setting or the core rules (possibly as one of any number of charts for Things that Complicate Relationships with NPCs and Provide Plot Hooks), I also tend to run games that DO venture well into areas both R and NC-17/X. And never gratuitously, surprisingly enough; if things 'go there', as it were, it is for a reason.
Perhaps the reason I consider it a silly topic is that, from a strictly Core Rules perspective, it's something that comes across as a GM discretion type of topic, if only to prevent min-maxing around that particular social behavior. Which is odd sounding until you consider the chaos that result from such sorts abusing charisma casters and becoming effectively diplo-pornomancers.
(And for what it's worth, they're still brothels in Golarion. I'm actually really quite disappointed that the design team/management didn't have the courage to call them that in Ultimate Campaign, but I guess it's just a sign of the times that we can go into great detail about violence but as soon as anyone talks about sex... the world freaks out...)
I think it's as much an understandable anxiety of having to deal with people who insist that anything with the word 'game' in it is de facto for children, while at the same time dealing with the frustration of those who grew up with the precursor games, and know for fact that it is not something that was ever really designed with 'kid-friendly' in mind, given many of the illustrations from the 1E books.
Anyway.
As for rules and the like on how some races might or might not go into heat, until we do a larger book about catfolk or whatever, that's gonna have to remain in the hands of individual GMs to decide.
Or, alternately, an opportunity for ambitious and slightly pandering and shamelessly money-grubbing third party publishers to carve out a niche?
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There's always a difference between handling a game maturely, and handling mature topics in an immature way. Many of the reactions around this topic focus on the latter, not the former. "Catfolk in heat" taps directly into a set of distinct, uncomfortable fetishism that...ties directly into the creepy guy at the table. No one really wants to game with that person, and no one really wants to see Paizo catering to them.
But, would rules like these really lead to that? Possibly not, though yes, they'll definitely be picked up by The Creepy Guy. It's inevitable. It could be a useful resource, though, if it's addressed more broadly, respectfully...and, the outcry may as well start now.
I believe firmly it would need headed by a female writer.
Pause.
Oh, yeah. I can hear the outcry, now. Yet, while a guy can relate to the topic, it is also true that it's never something he's experienced directly. For example, the start of menses is often an awkward, awkward, awkward social time for any female. I say this with respect...I'd want to see a female writer in part because most guys didn't grow up as an awkward 13 year old girl who's scared s*&&less of what just happened in the bathroom, and that's part of what this topic encompasses...your social impact. The experience of that 13 year old girl is vital to it.
A female would more likely to be aware of the societal constructs built to support such a cycle--or be more likely to ask about and research them. This is not to say a guy would not, only that women, historically, have "just handled it" and done so out of sight, often out of mind. It's one of the reasons that makes uncovering the history of these home crafts difficult--they weren't well, wars. They weren't the printing press. What value could they have?
Yet, historically speaking, there were entire cottage industries (haha). Home crafts were constructed to address the flow from mixtures of sheepskin and wool. So, how do the females in the society view it, internally? How do they handle it if it's seen as taboo by the men? The subject of menses, flow, periods, fertility and its history were often swept under the rug and were often handled "on the sly" by members of the female gender. Women made the crafts, and largely...well, men weren't aware of what side of a sheepskin you used to make a pad, how many you needed to keep on hand, which soaps to use to assure a cleaner fragrance, and so forth.
In that vein, we should ditch the use of the word "heat." That is, use terminology that establishes a more neutral, positive ground, such as fertility, fertility cycle, periods. If we use "heat", we dip directly into its connotations and more singular focus on a small part of the overall process. While terminology is a small thing, it can have a big impact on the tone of the book. The proper terminology helps ensure it will be given a more comprehensive, and respectful treatment. Remember, part of the book is going to be proving that anyone who brings it to the table isn't "that creepy, fetishistic guy." A respectful tone is part of that.
Such a book should, also, expand beyond "furry people." That is, it must be more than a cornerstone of a That Guy's fetish. That is, "cat people" are not the sole possessors of periods. This includes orcs and elves, too. Half-elves, with their odd genetics, could be an interesting subject. ...if they receive an odd sort of period, how do the women cope, and how much cussing is there until they figure out which parent it patterns after? Do the ones who get to deal with it more often than another sibling then secretly begin to plot that sibling's demise? >.>
Yes, the writer, publisher, of any such topic should realize that for many women it's a plague, a discomfort, an awkwardness, not a "yay, yahoo, let's talk about sex and have rituals." One of the less-secret uses behind birth control pills is being able to skip that little monster entirely.
I suppose that brings me to the final point: include equal information on the downsides. Or, at least, do not devote half the book to (or at all to) "heat makes the female want to have sex with anyone, this is especially true of catfolk." Include the discomfort, pain, and so forth associated with it. Address the social implications, including that yes, in some cultures women were forced to live outside of the society in huts (if they were lucky) during such times. Or, doctors develop medicines to assist with heavy flows. They've found the use of certain plants or fungi may give some relief to the sickness-feeling, which is a knowledge passed on by midwives...the adventuring buddies often think it's just tea, and never really understood why they had to take the trip to raid the caterpillar's lair. For many, it's like: Oh, f--*. Here it comes again.
Here are a few resources to help with the topic:
- History of the Pad
- Menstruation in 17th Century England
- Sewing Patterns for German Gear
- Impact of Access to Fertility Aids and Ability to Continue Education (addresses social embarrassment)
- The Effect of Menstruation on Attitudes Towards Women
From the last source, above: "Anthropologically, there is much evidence that women's menstruation has been feared, considered disgusting, and subjected to cultural taboos and concealment norms. ...that primitive man's fear of menstrual blood was greater than their fear of death, dishonor, or dismemberment."
...that's pretty frightening, isn't it? I believe in the last decade or so, there was a report of the US using women experiencing their periods as a means to get POWs to talk. They'd place a little blood on their fingers and just...threaten to touch them. Grown men who had faced down guns, been among combat since they were 9 years old...turned into shrieking children, cowering in the corner of the room...out of fear.
Brings out new ideas and ways to defeat a dragon, doesn't it? Come on, Tsar von Scissor-Fangs the Horrible, XVII. It's just a little blood...
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There's always a difference between handling a game maturely, and handling mature topics in an immature way.
(and a lot of other stuff with a lot of good points)
Fair enough, and something I could be in general agreement with, up to the point where, in an attempt towards equability and emphasis on realism, things transitioned into what could almost be referenced via XKCD as 'stop having fun guys' mode. In no means is an assumption made towards intention, though I have to note that invocation of 'That Guy' belies certain prejudices, expectations,a nd patronages of places best left undisclosed.
People familiar with L5R certainly know how much influence blood can have in the workings of magic, and it could go in some particularly perverse and disturbing directions if taken in a direction that is equal measures BoVD and Black Tokyo d20. I tend to think of things of that nature as being more the Witching or Oracular purview, personally, but that is coming from a vantage point where blood is life, and the use of blood to foster magic can either be a corruption of that life or an overwhelming enhancement on both the magics and the practitioners, though how the supercharging of energies that spur libidinous behavior is of course a subject for GM contemplation and general consensus-establishment with one's group.
That being said, and before people start screaming words that begin and/or end with y, I will note that the more animalistic-in-appearance races are not necessarily going to be evolved from said resembled kin-beasts, so stress atavism is not going to necessarily be applicable unless the animal-folk are a created race, instead of a naturally existing one. Just because certain vulpine creatures are reputed to be especially affectionate during their season doesn't mean it would carry over to a similarly doting nature in the case of similarly-appearing upright entities of magical nature.
Amusingly enough I think the same way in regards to races that might be dismissed as 'near-humans with accessories' - I've always figured elves for light menses, dwarves for being self-absorbing of any blood due to the sheer damned efficacy I would think being as high-constitutioned as they are would afford them, and gnomes don't necessarily have one, except when they do, and it's as random as they are, with no two being alike. Then again, I also speculate that kentaurides would 'wink' like mares, and due to being a juxtapositioning of intellect and instinct, be as capable as your average human of casual intimate interactions, but maintaining a level of cerebral detachment from the act, unless it IS during a particularly receptive point in the cycle, and then it's more of the emotional and overtly carnal perspective...but that's because I like messing about with the whole brute versus scholar aspect of centaur mythology.
..I wonder if there's a term for being 'That Guy' towards 'That Guy'. Antagonism inception?
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I think you make some great points overall, Ruggs, but there are a few that I'd like to address.
But, would rules like these really lead to that? Possibly not, though yes, they'll definitely be picked up by The Creepy Guy. It's inevitable. It could be a useful resource, though, if it's addressed more broadly, respectfully...and, the outcry may as well start now.
Well, considering this thread already exists, I think the following statement sums up every possible angle on this point:
"Creepers gonna creep."
Doesn't matter if you design for them or not, creepy people are going to be creepy. Censoring yourself to stop creepers is sort of like destroying a bridge because one of its floorboards was broken. Yeah, you don't have to worry about the broken floor board, but now you've also burned down a bridge.
Also, I'd imagine that for most people, a more detailed look on life cycles is requested simply because it allows players to better design their characters. Even to this day, the exact biological changes that elves and dwarves go through on their way to adulthood aren't very clearly defined. Ultimate Campaign gives us rough ranges, but doesn't tell us what a member of a given race actually looks like at every step of the way, nor does it tell us whether starting age is biological or cultural. That's a huge difference! Biologically speaking, you're an adult when you can reproduce. Culturally speaking, you're an adult when you meet the societal standers for adulthood, which can be anything from bedding your first woman to reaching a culturally significant number of years of age.
I believe firmly it would need headed by a female writer.
Pause.
Oh, yeah. I can hear the outcry, now. Yet, while a guy can relate to the topic, it is also true that it's never something he's experienced directly. For example, the start of menses is often an awkward, awkward, awkward social time for any female. I say this with respect...I'd want to see a female writer in part because most guys didn't grow up as an awkward 13 year old girl who's scared s~+@less of what just happened in the bathroom, and that's part of what this topic encompasses...your social impact. The experience of that 13 year old girl is vital to it.
I've met plenty of creepy women. While there are plenty of amazing female authors in the industry (Amber Scott comes to mind as a great example), the idea that women are automatically more mature about sexuality or intrinsically more qualified to write about it is itself sexist because it is assigning a specific mentality to a person based upon their gender.
In my post several posts up, I noted that all authors are human, and to bring this post back on-topic human females do not possess an estrous cycle. This means that, no, a human female is not more qualified than a human male to write about this topic because she has never had to deal with an estrous cycle. She can make predictions and assumptions based on her own experiences, but at the end of the day those hunches are just as good as a man's hunches. Also, fun factoid, the "scared out of your mind in a lavatory" scenario is unlikely to happen to a 13 year-old catfolk if her race possesses an estrous cycle because all mammals that possess an estrous cycle also possess an ovular membrane that reabsorbs lost blood into the body to be recycled. They wouldn't even have a "time of the month" considering that estrous cycles typically occur once during either the spring/summer or the fall/winter depending on the animal itself.
Also, its worth a mention that male humanoids whose females have an estrous cycle would also be affected by said cycle. When the female goes "in heat," she begins excrete a hormone that alerts nearby males that she is sexually active. If you've ever had a male dog, this drives THEM just as crazy as it drives female dogs. Although there is some research that suggests that human men might be somewhat affected by their partner's cycle, you can expect that the entire culture of a race with an estrous cycle would heavily revolve around said cycle.
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Just because certain vulpine creatures are reputed to be especially affectionate during their season doesn't mean it would carry over to a similarly doting nature in the case of similarly-appearing upright entities of magical nature.
I agree with your comments on evolution, because ultimately its up to the GM to decide where races come from. Are humans evolved from monkeys, or is it just coincidence that they look the way they do? Do keep in mind that in real life, people tend to think affectionately of other primates because we share many behavioral similarities with them. If the kitsune are cunning and foxes are cunning, they might look at hurting foxes with the same level of discomfort that we view hunting primates with. (Again, generalities and not reflective of every human being ever.)
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Racial Ecology by Fat Goblin Games is a handy book, but doesn't cover mating, how long a Catfolk is pregnant, do they have litters, or just one kit as humans generally only have one per pregnancy. It covered that if a Panthera and a Felidae have kits, they are normally Felidae, and that two Felidae *can* have Panthera kits, which are normally adopted by the higher class Panthera.
Still... I am interested in knowing EVERYTHING I can get my paws on, because I am writing a book about my Catfolk rogue, and I am a very OCD person. Perfection and exactness is required.
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Racial Ecology by Fat Goblin Games is a handy book, but doesn't cover mating, how long a Catfolk is pregnant, do they have litters, or just one kit as humans generally only have one per pregnancy. It covered that if a Panthera and a Felidae have kits, they are normally Felidae, and that two Felidae *can* have Panthera kits, which are normally adopted by the higher class Panthera.
Still... I am interested in knowing EVERYTHING I can get my paws on, because I am writing a book about my Catfolk rogue, and I am a very OCD person. Perfection and exactness is required.
Corrections required... Felidae and Panthera are not the names used by Fat Goblin, Felidae is the *cough* race of catfolk I created for a paranormal world I'm working on. The correct names are Felinae and Pantherinae.
Alexander:
Neither gender has a claim to maturity, you're right. When we're speaking of experience of a humanoid or humanoid-influenced race, the intent is to get behind the writing a set of experiences. While it may not be precisely the same as the horror and uncertainty of the 13 year old's first cycle, it's the closest our race is going to get.
The old adage is to write what you know and gather experience where you can't. If we're speaking of what the lifelong impact of one of these cycles has, and the primary members of the race who've been on discussion are the female ones...
...then it makes sense to have a solid writer onboard who's lived through as similar an experience as we can have. This is especially true as despite bestial characteristics, these are intelligent, reasoning creatures. That is, they'll carry much more emotional and intellectual baggage. They are going to be complex, experiencing anger, embarrassment, elation, confusion, or even shame. They will build social constructs around these events.
Hiring a female writer in this instance is not unlike the discussion of a favorite soccer team. While anyone may study for years and be qualified to speak about the team, the experience of an actual soccer player is going to intrinsically, have a different slant to it, though they are both informative.
Now, having a female writer among the writing leads doesn't exclude having male writers. Both are going to bring experiences to the table from different parts of it. For example, it'd be nice to have a male writer to describe the social counterpart--how did they react as a boy when they first found out about half their race doing these strange things? How has their attitude and reaction changed over time?
...How much Eeeeeew! did the guy have as a boy at 13? What sorts of pranks did they play on girls in attempting to come to their own understanding? Did they play them as solo, or were they more comfortable in groups? What did they do if they noticed a spot on the girls' clothes? Was it fascinating? Scary? Terrifying? ...funny?
For the female writer, what's it like going to the store for the first time with your mother to buy tampons or pads? Did you go? Did your mom go for you? What then, might it be like for one of these beings just making this discovery in their life and realizing they'll have to learn to deal with it, for the next however many years?
All of this is true, Ruggs, but you still completely dodged my point that:
A) An estrous cycle would have a lot less, "ewwwww" than real humans actually do.
B) Both males and females are biochemically effected by an estrous cycle, so the boys are "doing strange things" too.
That's the real reason you don't need to have a woman writing about the topic. (Remember that the OP is asking whether specific races go into heat, not for an in-depth look at adolescence for every playable race in the game.) If you have any experience with owning a dog or cat, you probably have more experience on the topic than a woman who hasn't witnessed the effects of an estrous cycle on an animal does.
Also, in your Soccer example, I would imagine that if you want a non-biased view on the game, a soccer player is not the person to talk to. Why? That "different slant" you're referring to is bias, which doesn't really work well when you're trying to take an informative approach on a topic. In which case, someone who has actually familiarized themselves with soccer and studied the game is better qualified to write about it because there is less chance of personal bias interfering. I also don't think that a true expert on the topic doesn't have to ever have experienced said topic personally in order to be considered an expert. Knowledge is really the key here. For example, Einstein pioneered modern Physics, but he never experienced the slowing of time that would be experienced by someone moving at light speed.
And if we're being truly realistic, the ability to bring personal experience to the topic isn't really a bonus here, because the level of depth that such experiences would bring really isn't appropriate for Pathfinder currently and would undoubtedly cause the product to be distanced from the game as a result. Paizo is not going to graphically write about this topic and the 3PP OGL License has a specific clause that says a product cannot contain themes like this:
You must use your best efforts to preserve the high standard of our trademarks. You may not use this License for products that the general public would classify as "adult content," offensive, or inappropriate for minors.
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Then you approach it like the 'sex talk' we all got in 6-7th grade. Don't go into the 'kinky' stuff. Take a look at it as if this was Animal Planet describing the life cycle of a creature. Which is what I think the OP is after. As am I. When does it start? When does it stop? I seriously doubt they would be the exact same as a human.
I probably did it a little too indirectly, and it didn't come across as clearly.
We're speaking of intelligent, thinking creatures with complex reasoning and emotion.
Although they may possess a snout and some of its instincts, they are at a point in evolution where they're going to consider both their actions and their consequences. Even if we take those instincts to the extreme, and dip into one of the creepier fantasies--that is, the female's brain shuts off and she will attempt to mate with anything in sight as hormones suddenly overrun her... we run into some sharp social difficulties, aside from it being associated with...well. Creepy fetishism.
The first one we run into is that in comparison to a dog, these are more highly reasoned and highly emotionally complex beings. They'll craft social constructs and evolve culture around these events in both obvious and subtle ways. Their religion will get involved. No more is it a matter of idealized, "simple" biology. In other words, they'll overthink it.
Now, I get that these are based on animals...I wonder if the difference in thought here is on the number of parallels. That is, the basic idea behind part of my own argument is: if you're writing about a version of feminine cycles, you'd want to have a feminine writer on board. Likewise, if you're going to write about a version of a male response, you'd want the counterpoint. For example, while a woman can research the teasing that goes on at 13 by a boy, her writing about it will very likely be fundamentally different.
While biology factors in, social constructs for reasoning beings play a heavy role. That may be the part that is more difficult to explain. So I'll throw things into the complete left field for a moment. For example, with some races, the cultural experience of a transgender person may be valuable. I love my transgender friends very much, and if I was writing about a species that changed their gender over time...due to say, something outside of their control...then having a transgender writer onboard would be aces.
I probably am not going to be able to get you to change your mind, though. I guess in the end, that's less my purpose than bringing out a broader view of the social considerations and constructs. With some work, maybe such a book as this one will not turn into what's been described as a creepy embarrassment. That is, a mature topic handled in a mature way.
I'm a little floored on this part, though: if the argument is now that this is offensive to minors and none of this matters anyway, then that's going to cover most of this topic. Writing about a young kid's embarrassment or an adult's adjustment and the social construct is probably less R-rated than describing how, as an example...and let me be blunt for a moment here: a cat-folk loses her mind and is forced to mate (engage in non-consensual sex) with any male in sight. ...except it's consensual, because it's biological.
That's a piece of the dark, under bellied part that this topic engages, that many of the posters and commenters have nodded and said: the fetishism forums are that-a-way. Maybe it's something Paizo, or a 3PP will never include.
If we're going to say it's a mature topic and would need handled by a mature label, then that opens the rest of this up, and we're pretty much back to where we started. I'm just a little surprised you pulled that card, I guess, is all. I've never disagreed that the whole of this was a mature topic. I'd just like it handled in a mature way, which I think we can agree on.
Now, I get that these are based on animals...I wonder if the difference in thought here is on the number of parallels. That is, the basic idea behind part of my own argument is: if you're writing about a version of feminine cycles, you'd want to have a feminine writer on board. Likewise, if you're going to write about a version of a male response, you'd want the counterpoint. For example, while a woman can research the teasing that goes on at 13 by a boy, her writing about it will very likely be fundamentally different.
I feel like I'm beating a dead horse at this point, but the thing about writing a product like this is that an estrous cycle does not solely affect the female critter. It affects the males of the species too.
When a woman menstruates, the biggest response that one expects to give or receive is, "Ew, gross!" and that's about it. Think about if humans had an estrous cycle. When your lady (or any lady you happen to be around, really) went through her time of the month, you would know at a subconscious, biological level that she is in heat. You would be able to smell it in her breath and likely hear it in her voice. And those subliminal cues would drive you mad. Your brain would receive the subconscious clues and begin producing hormones en mass, your entire body would become aware that there is a sexually active female nearby and at a biological level, yearn for interaction with said female.
The menstrual cycle is undeniably feminine. An estrous cycle is gender neutral because although it is triggered by a female, it affects males just as much as it does the female herself. It is such an alien concept to us that while a female author could certainly write about it, she would not be an authority on the subject and if we're getting really picky, she would not be an authority on how a man might react in that situation, or what sort of societal norms might spring up as a result of having a culture where both genders effectively menstruate in their own way at the same time. A male-dominant race might view women as succubi (a woman's whims literally clouds a man's mine) while the process might cause women to take a dominant role in society because it is women who decide when children are born and they would basically command the sexual urges of men by being the initiators of the estrous cycle.
While biology factors in, social constructs for reasoning beings play a heavy role. That may be the part that is more difficult to explain. So I'll throw things into the complete left field for a moment. For example, with some races, the cultural experience of a transgender person may be valuable. I love my transgender friends very much, and if I was writing about a species that changed their gender over time...due to say, something outside of their control...then having a transgender writer onboard would be aces.
I would agree that consulting a transgendered person makes a lot of sense in this case. And I would agree that consulting a woman when talking about how the menstrual cycle affects a woman makes a lot of sense as well. But the big point that I've been trying to make, and that you keep ignoring, Ruggs, is that this thread asks whether or not certain races go through heat. "Going through heat" is referred to as the estrous cycle and is biochemically different from the menstrual cycle; as I mentioned above, the estrous cycle is triggered by females but also affects males on a biochemical level. No human woman is going to have the experience to describe how a 13 year old boy might react to experiencing this biochemical change for the first time. 13 year old boys might be experiencing the production of hormones for the first time, but we're talking about a literal mass production of hormones the second one of his peers enters the cycle. It would be like being hit with the full hormonal force of being a teenager at once over the course of a day or two, and then having it subside back down to "normal" adolescent levels. Since the only creatures we could ever hope to consult on what this might be like are dogs, cats, horses, rats, foxes, etc., we're not going to be able to get much first-person advisement on the topic and we're going to have to use our imaginations when dealing with it. The idea that women would be better at making something like this, which affects both genders, seems sketchy to me.
If we're going to say it's a mature topic and would need handled by a mature label, then that opens the rest of this up, and we're pretty much back to where we started. I'm just a little surprised you pulled that card, I guess, is all. I've never disagreed that the whole of this was a mature topic. I'd just like it handled in a mature way, which I think we can agree on.
I do agree on that, but the reason I, "Pulled the card" is simply because any amount of depth on the subject that would require consultation would probably be deemed too graphic for Paizo or the OGL. If this topic was ever addressed, it would probably be nothing more than something like this:
"Unlike humans, kitsune females possess an estrous cycle and enter a season of intense hormonal activity during the spring and summer months. As a result, most kitsune are born during the winter and spring festivals celebrating this increased romantic activity abound in kitsune culture."
Which doesn't prevent such a product from being written; it just means that it can't use the Pathfinder Compatibility License/Logo.
Yeah ... but that sort of does prevent the product from being written. If you can't use the PCL, you can't refer to any Pathfinder Roleplaying Game mechanics. At all. Which would mean that all of the races that people WANT to see done ... couldn't be done. Not really, anyway. Plus, you would probably alienate most of the industry's talent from the project, because most of the bigwigs are going to want to product PDFs that they can actually market and sell on Paizo.com, which is a major player in the PDF selling business.
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It would certainly make brothels featuring these sorts of races extremely interesting. Imagine the advertisements. "Come for our spring special: experience the exotic wonders and passionate love of distant lands. Disclaimer: limited time only." Heh. Ah. I think I'll actually use that...
Shoot, man, I'm not ignoring you. I'm presenting an alternate viewpoint. We're intersecting at some points, sure--we're also sliding past on others, and that's fine. It's what disagreements do, which is kind of awesome in my book. I'm actually addressing your point fairly regularly--however, because of differing views, maybe you aren't seeing it that way.
Menses is a fairly specific type of cycle, and we can't say that it's the only acceptable cycle for a humanoid. Ideally, no matter the type, the input of both genders would be ideal. I'm actually basing this on some of the ideas you've put forward. For example, when writing of the response of the male... Consider the hormone levels of the teenage boy and just how strong those can be. Unlike the say, pig, a man who's been through the years of being a boy could well bring that experience to the table. He can imagine, better than a woman, what it might be like to have had that intensified.
To speak of the opposite end of the coin, a female does not possess that cycle type. What she does experience is a strong, culturally-driven imperative (and teaching) driving how she conducts herself based on a reproductive imperative tied intrinsically to her biological form. She too experiences a heightened attraction, though it tends to be more seasonal.
Unfortunately for us, culturally and historically, information regarding how women adapt to these imperatives has existed within a culturally mandated black-out. That is, culture dictated that it be kept so secretive that information associated with these instances existed primarily in oral tradition. I believe this to have been a mistake...but it does raise an additional question as to if these beings would be so willing to discuss it with the opposite gender.
It's an interesting topic, and I hope you're enjoying it as well.
One thing that struck me that you'd mentioned specifically, is the idea of women being treated like sirens. I'm not sure if you're interested in expanding on that within your own writing, but have you considered that one of the reasons behind the severity of the burka is that women are considered to trigger a basic, near-uncontrollable urge in men?* **
That is, the female form is considered so evocative, so provocative, that it needs covered and isolated for the safety of the male. I'm only aware of one culture*** where the male is required to wear a veil because of the perceived inability of women to control themselves. If there are others, please speak up as you seem to have some knowledge on the topic, and I'll add them to my reading list.
* This is not to say that this is the only reason given for the existence of the burka, just that it's one of them.
** Women who wear the burka have also expressed a unique discomfort with its removal. That is, they described: now feeling the hungry and demanding eyes of men roving over them, and feeling both unprotected and frightened. The burka was, then, their armor against the perceived male response. To be specific: I am not arguing that males have uncontrollable urges. To be more specific, I'm presenting a cultural example where the perception of a lack of control has influenced the cultural mandate.
*** If memory serves, it's a tribal culture near the Egyptian area.
Truth be told, I personally vary these particular details up from campaign to campaign, and from world to world, because catfolk on one world may actually be the descendants of uplifted base creatures, while outright created and thereby rendered inapplicable to a earlier evolutionary template.
This also varies with magnitude and extent of 'catness' involved.
Tangential to this, when I ran a game with Vanara, they ended up being something of an analog, culturally, of Vedic India approximating the Gupta Empire period, if only because for being as carefree and social as they are, they served as the appropriate race to produce an in-game analog to the Kama Sutra, though rendered somewhat difficult for humans to approximate due to a lack of tails. While seen as an essential componant of social regard as well as familial planning and continuation (a happy, active couple produces many happy offspring, or so goes the thought process), for them the techniques and awareness of their intimate nature were simply part of life, and not something scandalous or obscene. It was not to invite a bonobo comparison, by any means, but the Vanara were most certainly the most casually intimate of the races in said setting.
This is made stranger when there was the aspect of being attracted predominantly to their own kind, and having an outsized reputation as frantic fornicators with anything that moved, when the reputation was unfairly attributed; physical intimacy was more of a, to purloin a term, 'Rishathra' type of interaction. It just happened to be misinterpreted as a measure of libido, when that is only partially correct.
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Hmm. The mythical Vanaras were ascetics. Hanuman was completely celibate. In this, he was held to exemplify yogic practice that was non-Tantric; he is, of course, a follower of Vishnu, and Tantricism is generally linked to Shaiva and Devi-based yoga.
Still, monkeys as exemplifying discipline and sublimation of eros is something that may be a bit weird to non-Hindus.
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Hmm. The mythical Vanaras were ascetics. Hanuman was completely celibate. In this, he was held to exemplify yogic practice that was non-Tantric; he is, of course, a follower of Vishnu, and Tantricism is generally linked to Shaiva and Devi-based yoga.
Still, monkeys as exemplifying discipline and sublimation of eros is something that may be a bit weird to non-Hindus.
This is true, and part of the appeal in drastic contrast to their actual real world mythological analogs; sometimes, flipping tropes is a delight in and of itself.
However, the interpretation was also in part an excuse to have a chance to make a pun about fornicating like primates, a phrase that does not so much perplex or offend the Vanara as much as exasperate them.
"What they do is out of instinct and out of joy. and as such is a pure and beautiful thing, no matter how much it might offend your mores. However, they cannot fully understand the act in the way that we do, and as you might, and it should not be condemned or compared when the comparison is not completely apt."
Good thing I don't have lagomorphic beings in my game...
I believe firmly it would need headed by a female writer.
One of the two BOEF authors was Gwendolyn Kestrel, who also did several WOTC books.
I have personally played two different catfolk females (I love cats. what can i say?)... GMed two campaigns containing both Catfolk and elves And over the YEARS I've introduced a boatload of nonhuman NPC into games... And when you actually STOP and think this topic through to the logical conclusion it becomes a bit self-explanatory
Elves, and Dwarves: Both of these races are much LONGER lived than humans and yet both are supposedly rarer than humans. Which at FIRST would seem to be counter-intuitive. IF a matted pair of elves, or dwarves, is capable of one offspring every... 10 to 12 months for any real percentage of there lifespan? The elves should be overrunning your game world… and they aren't. And neither are the Dwarves, nor the Hobbits. So the answer must be one of the two elements above. Either elves have a vary narrow window of fertility. (Say 12ish years following puberty?) Or go for extended periods between fertility cycles (A child once every two to three hundreds of years?) The only alternative to this set of possibilities may be an incredibly high rate of infant mortality within the race (80 plus percent?). And when you think about this 3rd alternative, this has the potential to make elves the most tragic of all the races available for the PCs
Hobbits: Gandalf himself has offered up one possible answer in this case… that the hobbit population is slowly being melded into the human population of the game world, and will in only a few more generations be indistinguishable from the human population. For this to be the case MOST LIKELY means that human DNA contains more dominant genetics than dose the hobbit bloodline, and the interdiction of even a few samples of the more dormant will be more than adequate in the long run.
Catfolk: Catfolk have a noticeably shorter lifespan than do humans. And this fact dose undoubtedly account for a major element in the question of the rarity of the race within the game world. Yet even with the ability of a mated pare to only produce a ‘small’ litter of say 2 to 3 kits per mating cycle… the shorter lifespan should not be sufficient to keep the population of these creatures in check. My own explanation for this has normally been that A.) Catfolk enter in to puberty slightly latter in the life cycle than do humans (about 16 or 17 years of age) and shortly there after (either in the late summer or early fall of the indivigual’s18ish? year.) enter there first heat/matting rut. And I as the GM begin imposing penalties in both the PCs intelligence and wisdom, until either the PC capitulates, or for the entire week long window of fertility. IF the breading is successful a litter of two or three kits will be born about 10 moths latter. I personally say that CFs subsequent matting cycles are dependant on the levels of stress hormones and relate back to the kits already in the family so that a new matting cycle only begins when the stress of raising (Preteen?) offspring is lessened.
I know. I’m a total geek for having taken the time to think all of this out… and each GM needs to be able to add his or her own unexpected twists and turns to this topic just to keep the players guessing and on there toes. But if any of the above ideas work within your own campaign… Help yourself.
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Then you approach it like the 'sex talk' we all got in 6-7th grade. Don't go into the 'kinky' stuff. Take a look at it as if this was Animal Planet describing the life cycle of a creature. Which is what I think the OP is after. As am I. When does it start? When does it stop? I seriously doubt they would be the exact same as a human.
If a youth ever starts asking the depraved questions, they're gonna run into a wall of these:
"Westeth! Can you tell me about bondage?"
"Certainly! I'd enjoy discussing the holy bonds of matrimony!"
Back to the original topic... as a woman, I have to deal with a monthly visitor that includes plenty of real-life headaches (pun intended). I have zero interest as a player or GM in dealing with "PCs in heat" in Pathfinder/D&D, my fun escape from real-life stress.
I might make an exception for pon farr in a Star Trek RPG, but then I'd only have to deal with it once every seven years.
I know the discussion has moved afield of this, but my vote is Kitsune and catfolk, maybe. Weres, probably not.
When I wrote The Kitsune Compendium, I took a strong stance of, "No. No heat." Aside from being senselessly icky, having a flush of uncontrollable emotions as implied by going into heat doesn't make sense from an evolutionary standpoint. This is a race that is designed to be able to camouflage in with humans. Why would it have vestigial mammalian estrous cycle when A) a humanoid's life cycle can't support such a development cycle and B) the nature of the cycle could potentially usurp the creature's primary survival mechanisms (the shapeshifting).
The ONLY support that I could possibly see for an estrous cycle in kitsune is if their scent remains consistent between forms. Then a "heat cycle" could essentially alert a kitsune to a suitable mate who may or may not be disguised. But still, its a stretch and as I said, its a needless detail that doesn't add at all to the game.
Yet one more reason why animal people don't exist (as species) in my home setting.
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Now I'm just remembering the story of the party druid that liked to experiment in their free time with wildshape.
Graik (Dwarven Rogue): Jordan (Human Paladin), where's your horse, lad?
Jordan: Jitska (Human Druid) offered to take them to the stables so I could get straight to setting up our room in the inn, why?
Graik: I think ya know why, lad...
Jordan: Oh... Oh!
Now I'm just remembering the story of the party druid that liked to experiment in their free time with wildshape.
Graik (Dwarven Rogue): Jordan (Human Paladin), where's your horse, lad?
Jordan: Jitska (Human Druid) offered to take them to the stables so I could get straight to setting up our room in the inn, why?
Graik: I think ya know why, lad...
Jordan: Oh... Oh!
So Jitska stayed up all night to "Get Loki"? {obligatory bard accompaniment}
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So Jitska stayed up all night to "Get Loki"? {obligatory bard accompaniment}Now I'm just remembering the story of the party druid that liked to experiment in their free time with wildshape.
Graik (Dwarven Rogue): Jordan (Human Paladin), where's your horse, lad?
Jordan: Jitska (Human Druid) offered to take them to the stables so I could get straight to setting up our room in the inn, why?
Graik: I think ya know why, lad...
Jordan: Oh... Oh!
Apparently. I heard this story second hand elsewhere on the forums, though I can't seem to find the precise original. The story, and the moment of the paladin's realization, were just too awesomely precious to forget.
I like how the threads that started out trying to be somewhat serious (the succubus grappling thread and, to varying degrees, the many eidolon threads) quickly devolved into innuendo and entendre, while this thread, which started out pretty obviously trashy, turned into a serious discussion about copyrights, biology, gender divides, and how sex itself is treated in American culture.
those ogres arenot your Shrek drek
Well, I think Pathfinder ogres are pretty tame, but I have 4chan friends, sooo...