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Way to lower metamagic costs (sorcerer conjurer wants summon duration)?


Advice


All,

I really want to be able to use extend spell on my sorcerer's top level summons. I was wondering if there is any official way to get a -1 cost to extend spell or else take a feat that causes a penalty on a spell somehow so that you could stack it with extend and get x2 duration from the top summon.

The closest to this that I have found is Spell Specialization, which lets me pick a spell and apply +2 CL for 2 more rounds duration, and best of all, every even level the feat lets you move it to another spell in the same school, so I get to keep moving it to the top summon.

But +2 rounds is fairly unsatisfying.

I want to remain a pure Sorcerer, wild-blooded sage, for RP reasons. I am playing a goblin, and he is afraid of reading/writing, so he cant be a wizard conjuror. Also, if he was a Master Summoner with the Eidolon, he would probably worship the Eidolon, and I dont want the style feel of having the big perma eidolon. Also personally, I hate the Summoner class, and I hate keeping up with the mutations and etc.

Also, he has to be a Sage bloodline so I can cast from Int, and because my goblin *believes* he is a Wizard, and Sage fits best. Also, I dont want to be crossblooded. That would destroy the whole point of making my top summon better.

So I really wish I could find some way to make my summons last longer. I wish there was a bloodline that both let me cast from Int and gave me the wizard conjuror duration bonus or something.

Anyway, are there any options I have overlooked? Feats, traits, magic items? Tho magic items are usually a last ditch option, in that I want something for *every* time I cast, not just 3/day. Tho I guess I will take what I can get.

Help?

Thanks!


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

There are two traits which reduce the metamatgic cost to spells, and they stack! They are called Magical Lineage (from the Advanced Player's Guide) and Wayang Spellhunter (from the Dragon Empires Primer).

The former can apply to any single spell, and reduces the modified level by 1 after you've applied metamagic to it.

The latter works the same way, but must be put towards a 3rd-level or lower spell.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

A rod of metamagic


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

There is also Spell Perfection from the Advanced Player's Guide, which allows you to apply one free metamagic feat to a specific spell (among a myriad of other benefits).


If this isn't PFS, you could talk to the GM. Modify the Magical Lineage trait to apply to all summon monster spells, but make it a feat instead of a trait. Might be easy to sell if it's limited to extend spell only.


I guess I will have to do without. I need to be able to shift the effect to different spells as I level, so I will have to live with a duration of lvl+2 at best for my top summon.

Thanks for the replies!

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

There's always metamagic rods


Yeah, if I can get a metamagic rod, I will strongly consider it.


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Deluxe Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Card Game, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I would also go the rod route.

I believe the greater Metamagic Extend is only 24,500, which is one of the cheaper ones. And it will cover all level spells.

Unless you are consistently using other rods, instead.


Wow, pricey. :)

As much as I love D&D and now Pathfinder, I have since 3rd edition hated the fact that gold and magic item quantities are built into the power level of the game and that players can assume they can go to "ye olde magic shoppe" at any time. But thats a different soapbox. :)

Thanks!


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Well, I don’t know how difficult magic items are to get a hold of in your campaign. Believe me, I know how hard it is to get a hold of magic items. I am in the campaign right now where we are monsters and can't go to the “Olde Magic Shoppe” even if we wanted to.

But even with my GM, who is relatively stingy (which I like), a 24,500 GP item is affordable when you are at the level to cast those top level summons.

Besides, 24,500 GP is on the low end of the Greater Metamagic rods. Try buying a Greater Quicken. :)

Sczarni

Hobbun wrote:

Well, I don’t know how difficult magic items are to get a hold of in your campaign. Believe me,I know how hard it is to get a hold of magic items. I am in the campaign right now where we are monsters and can't go to the “Olde Magic Shoppe” even if we wanted to.

But even with my GM, who is relatively stingy, a 24,500 GP item is quite cheap when you are at the level to cast those top level summons.

Besides, 24,500 GP is on the low end of the Greater Metamagic rods. Try buying a Greater Quicken. :)

The low level ones aren't that bad...may as well start with the low end and graduate the the big leagues later...I thnk extend lesser is like 4k


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Deluxe Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Card Game, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Oh, I agree. It’s just the OP was just talking about ‘top level summons’, which would need the Greater rods, unless he was talking about ‘top summons’ for his current level.

But I have a Lesser Extend rod and I like to use it with my Invisibility for our scouting missions.


I meant top summon at any given point for my current level. Which, as I will be joining the game at level 3, my top summon for my Sorcerer is "1". :)


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Deluxe Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Card Game, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Ah, ok, my misunderstanding, then.

Then I agree with ossian, I would think a Lesser Extend rod would be your best bet.

If you don’t have the funds now, they are only a few thousand GP, so it shouldn’t take long to save. And of course if you have access to purchasing one.


Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Remember that when spontaneous casters use rods they cast the spell as a full round action.


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Yes, unless you use Quicken.


leo1925 wrote:
Remember that when spontaneous casters use rods they cast the spell as a full round action.

Keep in mind that it doesn't make a std action a 1 round cast, but it makes it a full round action. Which means that a full round action cast will still take effect during the end of that full round action. This is something I got wrong for longer than I would like to admit, so I thought I would point that out.

With summons it makes the spell which IS a 1 round cast into 2 full round actions, unless you have some sort of ability that makes it faster such as sacred summons or summoner's ability, or quicken.

Personally I don't really like the idea of spending 2 full rounds to cast a summon that won't be around very long even with the extend. Any action economy picked up by a extended summon is eaten up by taking so many actions to do it. Only way to offset this is having some good swift or free actions that you can do before and after, and at low levels (when you need the spell extended more) I just don't see that.

Also, 3 rounds is not too shabby for a combat summon at low level, if your party is relatively optimized (not full munchin, just characters who choose to be effective at their role) combats at low level often last 3-5 rounds baring some annoying conditions or enemy tactics (or bad rolling). This is due to the fact that HP damage is strongest at low levels. 2d6+9 isn't uncommon for a 1st level fighter power attacking, and most CR appropriate creatures don't have the AC or HP to take that for very long (often not even once). My suggestion as a summoning caster is to just work at making your summons better so you don't need them as long. Augment summoning and the feat that lets you get more is better than just gaining a couple rounds of a less effective summon.


Good point. I think I wont worry about the extend now. I didnt know it made it take the extra round.

I guess I will get spell focus at 1st level and augment summoning at 3rd.

I am dubious about superior summoning. It can only give you an extra summon if you could get more than one, which means it only helps my next weaker summon monster spell. I am not sure I want to burn a feat for that when I may only occasionally cast the next weaker level of summon.

Heck, I am barely sure I even want augment summon now. In a way, I think that as a goblin sorcerer, I should take spell focus evocation at 1st and greater spell focus at 3rd. +2 hit/dam is nice, and +2 hp pet dice is nice. Still, I am just not sure.

Thanks


Animation wrote:

Good point. I think I wont worry about the extend now. I didnt know it made it take the extra round.

I guess I will get spell focus at 1st level and augment summoning at 3rd.

I am dubious about superior summoning. It can only give you an extra summon if you could get more than one, which means it only helps my next weaker summon monster spell. I am not sure I want to burn a feat for that when I may only occasionally cast the next weaker level of summon.

Heck, I am barely sure I even want augment summon now. In a way, I think that as a goblin sorcerer, I should take spell focus evocation at 1st and greater spell focus at 3rd. +2 hit/dam is nice, and +2 hp pet dice is nice. Still, I am just not sure.

Thanks

Augment summon is really strong. Its even strong when you cast a 2nd level spell with superiors summoning and get d3+1 guys. The two together gives you a huge boost in damage output and HP. Even over casting a single full level monster. I would personally like a trio (on average) of summoned celestial/fiendish eagles than a single wolf or goblin dog. On the summon monster 2 list I only like the elementals, depending if you can get ice (numbing cold causes staggered) or mud (entrap ability cause entangled, and if already entangled causes helpless). Another reason why augment summon is so good is these two elementals abilities are keyed off of their con. Ice elementals will do 1d4+3 +d3 cold and a DC 14 fort save or be staggered, and muds get d6+5 and a DC 14 entrap. That eagle though will get 3 attacks, each attack will do d4+2, and there will be many more attacks (9 attacks on average with superior summoning vs 1 with the lvl 2 elemental). More bodies also means that more enemies can be engaged, and more flanking opportunities for characters that care about that.

One thing I noticed about both blast spells and summons is that if you don't apply feats and/or meta magic to them, they tend to be underwhelming compared to playing a control caster. But if you do focus on making your summons or blasts better, they get to be really good. For instance a metamagic boosted fireball is usually better than a vanilla spell cast at the same level. In the case of summons, an augmented superior summon spell is quite often better than a single big summon.


The other thing I would point out is that after about 6th level, we usually find that fights are not lasting longer than the basic sum mon spell anyway. And if the fight does last longer, the summoned monster was probably killed and we need to cast another one anyhow.

And even with extend, they rarely last long enough to get to the next fight.


Ok, here is how I have my Goblin Sorcerer (Sage) talents and feats planned. I will be starting at 3rd level. My level 5 feat is undecided, and I would like advice on it.

Traits: Reactionary, Magical Lineage (Fireball)
1) spell focus conjuration
3) augment summoning
5) UNDECIDED
7 Bloodline) improved init
7) intensify spell
9) empower spell
11) maximize spell
13 bloodline) spell focus evocation
13) greater spell focus evocation
15) spell perfection (fireball)
17) spell penetration
19 bloodline) combat casting
19) greater spell penetration

For my undecided feat at level 5, I was thinking either spell specialization (summon monster) OR superior summoning OR greater spell focus conjuration. Also, while I only have feats listed, at level 15 note that I get +2 to the DCs of a school of my choice. I plan to pick evocation.

My initial level 1 spells are burning hands, summon monster 1, grease, and my bloodline spell is identify.

Any further advice would be appreciated, thanks!


I understand why you're doing it, But I wouldn't go with spell focus in 2 schools. I personally think there are plenty of good attack spells in the conjuration school. Those wcould be your primary attacks. Then just have a few attacks from other schools if they have some specific power you think you will really make use of.

I would get the combat casting early if at all. I've never played beyond 14th level. But from what I've read, it isn't much use by then. They say that if you've allowed someone to get that close and you are also taking enough damage to make the feat necessary, then you are probably dead anyway.

I probably wouldn't take both empower and maximize. They are too similar. Unless you are planning on eventually combining them I guess. I've never tried that.

Depending upon the campaign, you might very well need spell penetration and the greater long before that. We usually start seeing significant amounts of SR at around 8-10.


Well, I resent SR, but I resent spending 2 feats to oppose SR even more. I want to actually like my character concept. As much as I will no doubt be pissed when I start hitting spell resistance, I suspect I will be more pissed staring at my feat list wishing for something else.

If a character is gimped without spell penetration, maybe they should have just ditched those feats from the game and lowered SR across the board by 2.

As for evocation, I will be throwing a lot of it around. Goblins can use their class bonus to pick up lower level fire spells, so I will be doing lots of evocation.

I dunno. Maybe I could just sink all my money into stat boosting gear and push the evocation stuff back. But I have built my whole character around the fact that this goblin really wants an awesome fireball. Eventually he will cast a 15d6 maxed empowered intensified fireball, and use a quicken rod to cast another 15d6 intensified fireball in the same round. I will want the evocation focus, I think.

I guess I could take spell penetration at level 5 but I was kinda leaning towards the superior summoning.

Anyway, I will think about it. Stupid spell resistance.


Spell pen isn't really all that powerful. Its 10 percent improvement on your roll. Greater spell pen is 20 percent which is pretty decent, but once again, pretty situational. The biggest reason why people value it so heavily is there isn't many ways to modify that roll.

Also if you focus on conjuration you don't even have to worry about spell pen, as conjuration spells generally don't allow resistance, and summons certainly don't.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

There are PLENTY of ways to modify that roll! Chief among them is increasing your caster level any way you can (since it is essentially a caster level check).

Here are a few things that can help:

FEATS
Additional Traits (magical lineage)
Spell Penetration
Greater Spell Penetration
Piercing Spell
Spell Specialization
Varisian Tattoo
Spell Perfection (doubles bonuses from above feats)

MAGIC ITEMS
Candle of Invocation
Orange Prism Ioun Stone

I'm sure there are plenty more ways not listed here.

I currently have a 15th-level character who has a +33 modifier to beat spell resistance (+38 with piercing spell). That's autopass against pretty much everything.


Most of those ways are somewhat situational. Though it kinda proves the point that you don't absolutely need spell pen, yet why spell pen is still popular.

Magical lineage is -1 adjustment for one spells metamagic. Not sure what this is for other than to adjust for piercing spell. Its only 1 spell though, so it better be the bread and butter of that character against SR.

Piercing spell is a metamagic, so takes a full round action for a spontaneous caster (assuming std action spells), and a higher level slot should it not be a magical lineage spell. Not a bad candidate for a rod.

Varisian tatoo is a cool feat, +1 CL to a school you already have focus in and a cantrip.

Spell perfection is also another one of those "works on your signature spell only" feats. Takes a high level to get, and many campaigns including adventure paths don't play that much at that level.

That Ioun stone is 30k, not even cheap if you make it yourself.

Spell specialization is amazing for casters looking to only use one school, if you are looking at being an effectively 1 school caster, this is better than spell pen if you only can take 1.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
notabot wrote:
Magical lineage is -1 adjustment for one spells metamagic. Not sure what this is for other than to adjust for piercing spell. Its only 1 spell though, so it better be the bread and butter of that character against SR.

Sorry, I meant to say Gifted Adept. Magical Lineage is one of my personal favorites and must have slipped in there by accident.

I had a friend who played a scrollmaster wizard. With a few feats and other abilities he managed to make it so his caster level when using scrolls was his level +6 or thereabouts. He was actually MORE powerful when using scrolls!


Nice! Thanks for the replies. My feat order is more or less set, assuming I dont change my mind about spell penetration. Still not sure what I'll do with the level 5 feat. I am also toying with taking Dazing Spell instead of Empower.

Maybe I could shift everything around (down) and take spell perfection on Chain Lightning or something also at 17th. :)

Anyway, thanks to everyone for the advice!


Animation wrote:
Well, I resent SR, but I resent spending 2 feats to oppose SR even more...

I don't understand this. Do you resent characters having abilities that increase their natural armor score?


Animation wrote:
... As for evocation, I will be throwing a lot of it around. Goblins can use their class bonus to pick up lower level fire spells, so I will be doing lots of evocation... I have built my whole character around the fact that this goblin really wants an awesome fireball. Eventually he will cast a 15d6 maxed empowered intensified fireball, and use a quicken rod to cast another 15d6 intensified fireball in the same round. I will want the evocation focus, I think...

Ok, from the way the thread started I thought it was being built around summoning.

Blasters are lots of fun. Even if lots of people say they aren't optimal, they are a kool. If you are building it around blasting evocation spells, then I would take those earlier and wouldn't take take all those for the summoning school.

Also, if you are planning on heading into heavy use of fireball, I would definitely recomend selective spell to try and not burn your allies with 30d6 of fire.


notabot wrote:
With summons it makes the spell which IS a 1 round cast into 2 full round actions, unless you have some sort of ability that makes it faster such as sacred summons or summoner's ability, or quicken.

No, it doesn't. The "full-round action cast for metamagic" only applies to standard action spells :D


Kydeem,

I am really building around BOTH summoning and blasting. I am less focused on control as such (tho I am tempted to take Dazing Spell instead of Empower, but I'm not quite sure yet).

I find control frustrating overall, at least in terms of making a god wizard and building for it. Control is effective, but it isnt what I enjoy, really. I like summons and blasting, and I kinda wanted to combine them in one character.

I also happen to be playing a goblin sorcerer for various reasons, and I want to be good at the stuff that would be obviously fun for a goblin. Goblins like all magic, but in particular they love fire magic. Their racial favored class option is to pick up any FIRE spell that is less than their max casting level. So I just figured I would go with lots of Evocation. On the other hand, because some things will have SR and/or be immune to fire, I needed another option. I could have gone for feats or options that let me do damage as other elements, but I just thought that little goblins would LOVE summoning massive (to them) monsters to kill stuff for them.

So basically, I am 50% blaster, 50% summoner. Mix and match.

I will probably go with Superior Summoning at level 5. I might go with Dazing Spell there or in place of Empower. We'll see.

Would I be gimping my blasting too much by only taking Intensify and Maximize? Should I even try to fit in Dazing Spell, considering that the daze will "only" be for 3 rounds (fireball usually)?

I wish I had room for Spell Perfection Chain Lightning also. :)

Thanks!


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Daze is HUGELY powerful; three rounds of daze is usually enough time for your buddies to carve the thing into mincemeat while it just stands there not fighting back. And if you can daze multiple monsters ...


So between Dazing, Empower, and Superior Summons (for use on my next-lower Summon Monster to get packs) which TWO of those would be best for the feat line-up posted above?

Anyone?

Thanks!


stringburka wrote:
notabot wrote:
With summons it makes the spell which IS a 1 round cast into 2 full round actions, unless you have some sort of ability that makes it faster such as sacred summons or summoner's ability, or quicken.
No, it doesn't. The "full-round action cast for metamagic" only applies to standard action spells :D

Quote:

Sorcerers and Bards: Sorcerers and bards choose spells as they cast them. They can choose when they cast their spells whether to apply their metamagic feats to improve them. As with other spellcasters, the improved spell uses up a higher-level spell slot. Because the sorcerer or bard has not prepared the spell in a metamagic form in advance, he must apply the metamagic feat on the spot. Therefore, such a character must also take more time to cast a metamagic spell (one enhanced by a metamagic feat) than he does to cast a regular spell. If the spell's normal casting time is a standard action, casting a metamagic version is a full-round action for a sorcerer or bard. (This isn't the same as a 1-round casting time.) The only exception is for spells modified by the Quicken Spell metamagic feat, which can be cast as normal using the feat.

For a spell with a longer casting time, it takes an extra full-round action to cast the spell.

>> note the last line


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Tricky. Empower and Dazing both boost blasting, while Superior Summons is the only one that boosts summoning. I'd probably take Spell Focus (conjuration) and Augment Summons before Superior Summons, frankly, and SF/conjure would boost some blast spells as well, not all of them are evocation.. But of those three, if you want to be 50-50 I'd have to recommend Superior Summoning and one of the two others.

I'd probably take Dazing before Empower. Summon something, then cast Dazing X next round and let your summoned creatures and/or buddies whomp on the guy that's not fighting back.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Dazing is great, but not as good as people make it out to be. The DC is almost always going to be 3 lower than your top end spells, which means you aren't going to be dazing a lot of creatures with it unless they were already rather weak to begin with.


Remco Sommeling wrote:
>> note the last line

Sorry, don't know what I've smoked to miss that. You're completely right.


Ravingdork wrote:
Dazing is great, but not as good as people make it out to be. The DC is almost always going to be 3 lower than your top end spells, which means you aren't going to be dazing a lot of creatures with it unless they were already rather weak to begin with.

On the other hand, the amount of reflex targeting control spells is limited*, while reflex is quite often a bad save for enemies.

*there are of course reflex-targeting control spells, but for a spontaneous caster picking up a good number of these would severely reduce the number of fort- and will-targeting control spells as well as other spells.


Dazing is pretty good on spells that affect multiples. Reason being is multiple monsters tend to have lower CR due to how appropriate encounters work. Heck my PCs hated it when I got off a dazing magic missile, 5 targets, 2 PCs fail their save. Made that encounter much more dangerous for the party being down 1/3 of the party actions for a round.

I like MM for daze since it doesn't allow saves, and auto hits. I also like it with toppling spell. Toppling is only +1, and tripping your opponent can seriously impact combats. Just got done with a combat with grease and trips and groundbreaking (rage power) everywhere. Half the combat PCs and monsters were getting knocked prone every other round. Of course like dazing, it doesn't work all that well against higher CR monsters unless they are leveled NPCs that aren't fighter types.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

notabot: Dazing spell uses the spell's save, or if there isn't one (like magic missile) they get a will save at the spell's (effective) DC.


I was referring to the fact that they don't get to save against the damage, so it will trigger. Sorry that wasn't clear, I know that they get a save against the daze effect.

Reason why it matters is rogue evasion, if they can make their save against say a dazing fireball, the daze part doesn't get to trigger. I really hate to fight against evasion characters as a caster.

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