| 39 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Answered in the FAQ. 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Hey everyone,
Take a look at the on an object paragraph for grease
The spell can also be used to create a greasy coating on an item. Material objects not in use are always affected by this spell, while an object wielded or employed by a creature requires its bearer to make a Reflex saving throw to avoid the effect. If the initial saving throw fails, the creature immediately drops the item. A saving throw must be made in each round that the creature attempts to pick up or use the greased item. A creature wearing greased armor or clothing gains a +10 circumstance bonus on Escape Artist checks and combat maneuver checks made to escape a grapple, and to their CMD to avoid being grappled.
Up until now, everyone I know has read this to mean that if you make your first Reflex save, the effect doesn't happen--you pull the weapon out of the way of the conjured grease, or whatever. Everything after the 'if' that follows my bolding is under the 'if' clause. This isn't the only spell that uses that confusing version of 'if' (suffocation comes to mind).
However, recently I've seen the interpretation that even if you make your first save, the spell is going to last for 1 minute per level on your weapon. I see where this interpretation could come from in the text, but I don't agree. Since both of us are in PFS, it would be good to figure out which way is right. If we can't figure it out at all, we can always FAQ this.
Thanks!
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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| 2 people marked this as FAQ candidate. |
I'm going ahead and FAQing it right now.
If the first save can negate the entire spell, then why doesn't the Save entry say "Reflex negates (see text)" instead of just "see text"? Additionally, does "avoid the effect" mean "avoid the item being coated" or "avoid dropping the item"?
If the first save does NOT negate the entire spell, then why bother pointing out that an unattended item is always affected?
Regardless of which interpretation is correct, wording needs cleanup. Therefore, everyone please click the FAQ button! :)
I read it like you do: Initial reflex save to avoid the effect. If you make that first save, you've avoided the effect and your item is not greased.
If you fail, and the item gets greased, then you drop it. Each round you try to fiddle with the greased item, you make another save.
To read it otherwise, you're not avoiding the effect (the effect is having a greased item), you're avoiding the consequences of the effect for one round (dropping it).
Up to now, I've seen most DMs rule it as the grease staying on regardless of the first save and took it as RAW till I looked more closely at the spell wording when I started playing more casters. I agree w/ the OP, the wording doesn't justify that sort of interpretation. But FAQing just in case.
If the first save can negate the entire spell, then why doesn't the Save entry say "Reflex negates (see text)" instead of just "see text"?
Negates: "The spell has no effect on a subject that makes a successful saving throw."
If it negates, then if someone makes their save to not fall prone when the ground they're standing on gets greased, then they can walk through it all they like.
It could be clearer, though. I would suggest changing "avoid the effect" to something that specifies that the item does not get greasy.
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Oooh! Even better, if someone makes the reflex save to not have an item get greased, the grease should miss like a splash weapon. Roll d8 for direction and one square gets greased the same as if it was cast on an area.
Every game needs more hilarious greasing.
I'm going ahead and FAQing it right now.
If the first save can negate the entire spell, then why doesn't the Save entry say "Reflex negates (see text)" instead of just "see text"? Additionally, does "avoid the effect" mean "avoid the item being coated" or "avoid dropping the item"?
If the first save does NOT negate the entire spell, then why bother pointing out that an unattended item is always affected?
Regardless of which interpretation is correct, wording needs cleanup. Therefore, everyone please click the FAQ button! :)
I think the reason for the See text is that the Reflex save against the other version does not negate the puddle of Grease being there (and possibly requiring more saves if your acrobatics is awful) and also that if you fail the first save against an object, it won't negate after that. I think it has enough confusing provisos that they just wrote 'See text'.
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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If the first save can negate the entire spell, then why doesn't the Save entry say "Reflex negates (see text)" instead of just "see text"?Negates: "The spell has no effect on a subject that makes a successful saving throw."
If it negates, then if someone makes their save to not fall prone when the ground they're standing on gets greased, then they can walk through it all they like.
That's why it would say "Reflex negates; see text", not just "Reflex negates". It's just hard for me to accept a spell having no effect whatsoever on a successful save without there being a "negates" in the Save entry.
Even so, the more I think about it the more I'm starting to agree with you guys. I'm still not happy with the wording, though.
If the first save can negate the entire spell, then why doesn't the Save entry say "Reflex negates (see text)" instead of just "see text"?Negates: "The spell has no effect on a subject that makes a successful saving throw."
If it negates, then if someone makes their save to not fall prone when the ground they're standing on gets greased, then they can walk through it all they like.
That's why it would say "Reflex negates; see text", not just "Reflex negates". It's just hard for me to accept a spell having no effect whatsoever on a successful save without there being a "negates" in the Save entry.
Even so, the more I think about it the more I'm starting to agree with you guys. I'm still not happy with the wording, though.
The wording could really be improved. Try suffocation on for size as well in that regard. I think it's even worse. It ends after a single round of being staggered if you make the first save, but it requires a massive amount of staring to notice that (since if you fail the first save, you have to make a bunch more saves, and it's easy to read it in such a way that you always have to make all those saves).
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| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
Well for what it's worth, my first level sorc has used it on weapons in 2 PFS scenarios. Both of the GM's used the same interpritation.
The weapon was greased for 1 minute. The wielder had to make a save each round to keep ahold of it.
Not saying we were right, but all 3 of us read it that way. The 'save means it is not coated' never even occured to us. I can easily see how it can be read that way now though.
I'm just not sure.
That would take it from a great spell, to just a so-so spell in my opinion.
I have always interpreted it to mean that you have to make that reflex save every round, even if the first one is made. FAQed.
Is a wall or rope a creature is climbing considered an attended object? How would this effect the climb DC.
The rope should certainly be considered "employed by a creature" so there should be a save.
Technically, he's got to drop the rope if he fails. So I would have him fall, I guess. Then reflex each round to use the rope as normal.
It's odd that the spell doesn't specify object size. I would think they would want to limit it to objects that are at least somewhat less than 10 feet. Fortunately, SKR ruled that the planet isn't an object.
There is an enemy with the following ability
Fountain of Blood (Ex)
As a full-round action, a blood knight can spray blood from its armor in a great cascade. Each creature within a 15-foot radius is covered in blood and must succeed on a DC 20 Fortitude save as though it had ingested the blood knight’s poisonous blood. The blood fills the area until the blood knight’s next turn. Creatures entering the spray while it persists are subject to its effects, but a creature can be affected only once per round. The area covered by the blood spray becomes coated as though by a blood slick and remains slippery for 6 rounds, or until the blood is washed away with at least 5 gallons of water or other liquid, or burned away with normal or magical fire as a full-round action.
Creatures and objects within the area that do not have total cover are coated with the blood, which functions as a grease spell for the purpose of using and handling items (DC 20 Reflex save negates). Failure means the item is immediately dropped. A creature coated in blood gains a +10 bonus on Escape Artist checks. Once the blood knight has used its fountain of blood attack, it must wait 1d4 rounds before it can do so again. Blood knights are immune to any blood knight’s fountain of blood.
So it would seem to me that a save does negate the greasing of an item.
Official Rules Response
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FAQ: http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9qnp
Grease: If an opponent casts this spell on my item, and I succed at my initial save, what happens?
The spell description says "an object wielded or employed by a creature requires its bearer to make a Reflex saving throw to avoid the effect," so succeeding at your save means you avoid the effect—the spell is negated and there is no grease on your item.
The design team is on fire this week!