Spells and Sneak Attack


Rules Questions


This is probably answered somewhere but I can't seem to be able to find the answer in the CRB. Anyway, I'm about to start playing in a game as a Wizard/Rogue making his way into the Arcane Trickster prestige class and the Surprise Spells ability got me thinking. Before I get that ability am I able to sneak attack with spells? I thought I was able to with spells that only targeted one creature but now I'm beginning to wonder. Thanks in advanced.

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Felgoroth wrote:
This is probably answered somewhere but I can't seem to be able to find the answer in the CRB. Anyway, I'm about to start playing in a game as a Wizard/Rogue making his way into the Arcane Trickster prestige class and the Surprise Spells ability got me thinking. Before I get that ability am I able to sneak attack with spells? I thought I was able to with spells that only targeted one creature but now I'm beginning to wonder. Thanks in advanced.

If the spell requires an attack roll, and you meet the requirements for sneak attack, than yes you can. For example, using scorching ray during the suprise round on a flat-footed opponent would allow sneak attack. Melee touch spells against targets you flank would also work.

Btw, there is some disagreement about whether you can get sneak attack multiple times for multiple scorching rays. I advise that you ask your GM before such a situation comes up and go with their ruling.


As long as normal sneak attack rules apply (flanking, stealthed, invisible, or anything else that makes them lose their dex bonus) then all spells that require an attack roll may have sneak attack


ryric wrote:
Felgoroth wrote:
This is probably answered somewhere but I can't seem to be able to find the answer in the CRB. Anyway, I'm about to start playing in a game as a Wizard/Rogue making his way into the Arcane Trickster prestige class and the Surprise Spells ability got me thinking. Before I get that ability am I able to sneak attack with spells? I thought I was able to with spells that only targeted one creature but now I'm beginning to wonder. Thanks in advanced.

If the spell requires an attack roll, and you meet the requirements for sneak attack, than yes you can. For example, using scorching ray during the suprise round on a flat-footed opponent would allow sneak attack. Melee touch spells against targets you flank would also work.

Btw, there is some disagreement about whether you can get sneak attack multiple times for multiple scorching rays. I advise that you ask your GM before such a situation comes up and go with their ruling.

I thought it was ruled that you could as long as you had improved invisibility since they still lose their dex bonus even after the spell is cast because you're still invisible


Thomas Long 175 wrote:
I thought it was ruled that you could as long as you had improved invisibility since they still lose their dex bonus even after the spell is cast because you're still invisible

It's not about being invisible, it's whether the rays are all one attack:

Sneak attack applies to any attack you make with an attack roll against a foe denied their dexterity.

AKA: There's no difference between doing 3 scorching rays and three thrown daggers as far as sneak attack cares. In the vast majority of situations, the target will become aware of you after that first hit, though, so the 2nd and 3rd scorching ray or dagger would often not get sneak attack at that point.

And of course, if you're arguing that all three rays hit at once—that's effectively one attack, and that means that you only get sneak attack once. That's not how the spell's described, though.

That's a fairly old post, I recall some more discussion, but can't seem to find it at the moment.

There's also a FAQ item about surprise spells.


Felgoroth wrote:
I thought I was able to with spells that only targeted one creature but now I'm beginning to wonder. Thanks in advanced.

It's not target, but rather ranged touch spells that you are looking for.

Things like acid arrow. You don't need a target (hence you can attack a square) but do need to make a ranged touch attack.

Talk to your DM on how they rule spells that make multiple, simultaneous ranged touch attacks in regards to sneak attack. If they allow it on all of them consider a pure rogue/alchemist that is seeking a ring of telekinesis... However once the DM sees TK making a number of simultaneous ranged attacks equal to the CL (i.e. a CL 9 TK spell from a level 9 rogue dealing 54d6 dice in damage before other modifiers) that ruling might change.

This is considered an issue, as many see it the only way for the AT to stay viable. I would rather suggest that you have talks with your DM as they might alter the class a bit to make it more arcane and trickstery rather than trying to live on scorching rays and this ruling.

-James


Grick wrote:

It's not about being invisible, it's whether the rays are all one attack:

Sneak attack applies to any attack you make with an attack roll against a foe denied their dexterity.

Yes but as long as they remain invisible the enemy still loses their dex bonus. It's not like stealth or the 3rd level invisibility where as soon as you take a hostile action you lose your invisibility. Last I checked they are denied their dex bonus until improved invisibility wears off


Thomas Long 175 wrote:
Yes but as long as they remain invisible the enemy still loses their dex bonus. It's not like stealth or the 3rd level invisibility where as soon as you take a hostile action you lose your invisibility. Last I checked they are denied their dex bonus until improved invisibility wears off

That's not the issue. Whether you're invisible, or they're flat-footed, or denied dex for whatever reason, it still matters if each ray is an attack, or if the spell itself consists of one attack.

If each ray is an attack, then three rays means three sets of sneak attack dice.

If the spell is only one attack, then you only get one set of sneak attack dice even if you hit with three rays.


Grick wrote:
Thomas Long 175 wrote:
Yes but as long as they remain invisible the enemy still loses their dex bonus. It's not like stealth or the 3rd level invisibility where as soon as you take a hostile action you lose your invisibility. Last I checked they are denied their dex bonus until improved invisibility wears off

That's not the issue. Whether you're invisible, or they're flat-footed, or denied dex for whatever reason, it still matters if each ray is an attack, or if the spell itself consists of one attack.

If each ray is an attack, then three rays means three sets of sneak attack dice.

If the spell is only one attack, then you only get one set of sneak attack dice even if you hit with three rays.

Oh ok I thought you were contesting whether he would still get the sneak attack even if he remained invisible. I would think it would be obvious they are different attacks because they can target different people and all require separate attack rolls


What are the arguments against each attack roll being an attack?


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Ok, I pretty much figured it out based on the responses I've seen. I was just wondering about how the sneak attack worked with spells. Essentially what I've gathered is that I need to make some sort of attack roll with the spell against an enemy denied it's dex to deal sneak attack damage, unless I've got surprise spells.

Honestly, my character isn't going to be the scorching ray build (evocation is actually one of my opposition schools). The real reason I decided to go into the Trickster was because my character is acting as the parties face and I was originally just going to play a straight Enchanter but I decided I wanted to dip into the Charlatan Rogue variant to get Grand Hoax and then I figured the Arcane Trickster would be a nice choice because I get more skill points (something I enjoy) and some other nifty abilities. It also helps my character out when we run into things at higher levels that are immune to mind affecting-effects by allowing me to hit them with spells and deal sneak attack damage (sometimes anyway).


Cheapy wrote:
What are the arguments against each attack roll being an attack?

JJ: "And of course, if you're arguing that all three rays hit at once—that's effectively one attack, and that means that you only get sneak attack once."

However, here someone said (for scorching ray) they're fired simultaneously, James said he would let all the rays deal sneak attack damage. Which is the same thing he was saying earlier, when he thought they were fired in series. I think that discussion might have been related to invisibility, rather than the attack situation, but without good quoting in those threads it's hard to tell.


Can you use sneak attack with Vampiric touch increasing the number of temporary hit points you gain?


Pesh Master wrote:
Can you use sneak attack with Vampiric touch increasing the number of temporary hit points you gain?

Technically the spell does say you gain temporary hp equal to the damage you deal not the damage the spell deals, so there's nothing that excludes extra damage piled onto the spell


Pesh Master wrote:
Can you use sneak attack with Vampiric touch increasing the number of temporary hit points you gain?

Yes.

Other questions for your DM will include: if you empower a damaging spell or if the spell has a save for half, do these alter the sneak attack damage? I.e. is that damage part of the spell? It doesn't matter which way it's ruled.. it just needs to be ruled and then ruled consistently with both.

-James


The damage is a part of the spell. It's not in addition to it. It's extra damage, not an additional side pool of damage.

JB

Jason Bulmahn wrote:

DR does not negate sneak attack damage. The sneak attack damage is not a special effect that accompanies the attack, it is part of the damage roll.

Hope that clears it up.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing

Emphasis mine.


so a maximized spell will deal maximum sneak attack damage? Maybe is not that much OP compared to other classes, but still seems a bit exploitative.

Edit: at the 14th level, 1 5th level spell could deal 72 + 3 x 6 x 6 = 72+108= 180 damage. Seems a bit on the high side if you consider you still have a great deal of optimization you can do on it.


Dekalinder wrote:

so a maximized spell will deal maximum sneak attack damage? Maybe is not that much OP compared to other classes, but still seems a bit exploitative.

Edit: at the 14th level, 1 5th level spell could deal 72 + 3 x 6 x 6 = 72+108= 180 damage. Seems a bit on the high side if you consider you still have a great deal of optimization you can do on it.

That's not high at all especially for 14th level and a 5th level spell. At that point any character whose devoted to doing damage should be seeing damage that's at least well into the 100's/ turn


This is not "devoted to do damage", is just a Trickster casting a spell. If you want to try "devoted to do damage" try stacking on top of it empower, specialization, magical lineage, spell perfection at 15th, a dip of crossblooded sorc for +2 damage per dice of both the spell and the sneack attack ecc.


yes the 180dmg is per-optimized so ya not bad.

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