What happens if a class grants a similar ability as a class modified by a template?

[Sensorghost]

For examplle if I have a Bard with the template "Archivist", which replaces several of the bardic perfomances with other abilities, and I take the prestige class Pathfinder Chronicler, that grants the bardic performance ability at 3rd level, do I get the replaced abilities back?

If run as described I would say yes, because the Chronicler grants you the ability as a lowr level bard. That is a 3rd level Chronicler acts as if he was a 1st level bard. This is how it is written in the book...

"Bardic Music (Su): At 3rd level, a Pathfinder chronicler
gains this ability, which functions like the bard class feature
of the same name, except that the chronicler’s effective bard
level is 2 lower than her class level. Levels in this class stack
with levels in any other class that grants a similar ability to
determine her effective bard level."

Does this mean that I get the "Inspire Courage" performance of a 1st level Bard, even though as an "Archivist" Bard replaces that performance with "Naturalist"?

[wraithstrike]

You get the bard ability, but you are not "getting it back". It is a function of the PrC entirely in this case, not the bard class.

Since the bard you are playing no longer has the ability you can't use the bard class levels to stack them. You only get the effective levels of bard that the PrC give you.

[Sensorghost]

So I would be able to use "Inspire Courage" 4 + Charisma modifier times a day, but "Naturalist" 4 + Charisma modifier + 10 (8 from 4 additional levels of Bard (You would need to a minimum of 5th level to meet prereqs of PrC)and 2 from additional level stacked from PrC) times a day?

[wraithstrike]

Sorry I completely misread your post. I assumed the Prc gave you inspire courage specifically, so I went and read the text for both classes. The Bardic Performance does stack, but Inspire Courage is not regained.

[Sensorghost]

Actually I like the misread solution. It requires a little bit more bookkeeping but that really wont be an issue.

Basically you are not required to be a bard to get the PrC, it just increases your effective bard level if you have levels in that class. This is similar to PrCs that grant effective spellcaster level increases.

In effect any Bard performance abilities that were replaced by a template would be regained at an effective level equal to the PrC - 2 + any other class levels that grant the same performance. The number of rounds the ability can be used would reflect that effective level. A 5th levle Bard / 3rd Level Pathfinder Chronicler would have a total of 14 + Charisma modifier rounds of Bardic Performance (see math above), but could only use 4 + Charisma modifier rounds on "Inspire Courage".

Thank you for your help.

[HermitIX]

The Pathfinder Chronicler's text says...

Bardic Performance (Su)

At 3rd level, a Pathfinder chronicler gains this ability, which functions like the bard class feature of the same name, except that the chronicler's effective bard level is 2 lower than her class level. Levels in this class stack with levels in any other class that grants a similar ability to determine her effective bard level.

Because the text says it stacks with the existing classes Bardic Performance and you traded The standard Bardic Performance for the Variant Bardic Knowledge. You continue gaining the variant Bardic Performances instead of the standard set.

You don't get Inspire Courage.

[wraithstrike]

Hermit X is correct. Nothing says you get the standard bard abilities. Even with the archtype(not template) you still have bardic performance.

You just have different abilities than normal. In short all the PrC does is boost what you already have. Notice that it never says it gives you anything as far as specific performances. It only stacks bard levels to determine how it advances.

How it advances is now determined by the variant version you took.

[Bobson]

It's worth pointing out that if you took an archetype that replaced bardic performance with something that does not count as bardic performance, then Pathfinder Chronicler would instead give you bardic performance as a bard (of two levels below your Chronicler level), which would not stack with your alternate ability.

No current archetype does this, but the Archaeologist comes close. It explicitly takes away bardic performance, but then gives you another ability that "is treated as bardic performance for the purposes of feats, abilities, effects, and the like that affect bardic performance."

[sirbiliwack]

I realize that this board is about a year old, but I need some clarification, and this is the only place I have seen anyone asking anything close to the question I'm trying to figure out.

So if I'm playing a Bard(archivist)5 and begin taking levels of Pathfinder Chronicler, when I reach Chronicler level 3 and gain the Bardic Performance ability my effective Bard level will be 6.

Does that then mean I will gain the "Lamentable Belaborment" bardic performance type that I would get as a 6th level Archivist?

I'm assuming yes, but I have seen things that made me question it, and would like a clearer answer.

[The Great Rinaldo!]

I have the same question. My Archivist is going to be taking her levels in Chronicler soon, and this is an important question. I'd like to suggest people mark this thread for FAQ to see if we can get a response.

[blahpers]

sirbiliwack wrote:

I realize that this board is about a year old, but I need some clarification, and this is the only place I have seen anyone asking anything close to the question I'm trying to figure out.

So if I'm playing a Bard(archivist)5 and begin taking levels of Pathfinder Chronicler, when I reach Chronicler level 3 and gain the Bardic Performance ability my effective Bard level will be 6.

Does that then mean I will gain the "Lamentable Belaborment" bardic performance type that I would get as a 6th level Archivist?

I'm assuming yes, but I have seen things that made me question it, and would like a clearer answer.

Yes.