I am a 5th level Sorcerer with the Arcane bloodline. I have planned out my feats until 20th level, but was looking to see what others felt on my choices, and what suggestions you may have.
A little backstory. We are a monster group (Hobgoblins) that was driven out of our lands in the north from a powerful orc leader (BBEG). We have now established a small, hidden community, and being monsters, cannot go and buy items like normal (magical or mundane), so we have had to become self sufficient. We have established some ties with other nearby settlements, including attaining an ally in a relatively high level Paladin of 10th level (too long a story to tell here). But for the most part, we are on our own.
We have all the crafting and profession skills that are needed to build, repair, hunt and basically survive on our own. The land we live on is a relatively large continent (think Australia) completely surrounded by water, so we also do seafaring adventures, and even have our own keelboat now. But we need to be careful and remain hidden, not only due to the strong orc leader is starting to exert himself in our area (same one that drove us out further north), but we have to watch out for the (somewhat) nearby human towns and patrols, as well.
And to be clear, we are not evil. We are a neutral faction that split off together when running from the strong orc leader. It is the only way we would have been able to make nearby allies, especially with the Paladin.
I will now show my build:
Str 14
Dex 12
Con 14
Int 12
Wis 10
Cha 19 (w/ +2 headband)
Spells
1st Level - Magic Missile, Colorspray, Sleep, Mage Armor
Bloodline Spell: Identify
2nd Level - Glitterdust, Scorching Ray
Bloodline Spell: Invisibility
Feats
Due to the need for our self sufficient nature, I have chosen (and will choose) Magic Item creation feats. Therefore, I don't really want to switch these outs for anything else. Also, because I am of the Arcane Bloodline, I have decided to take a lot of metamagic feats to take advantage of the bloodline.
Metamagic feats are something new to me as I have never really used them before, so I thought it would be fun to try them out.
Here are the feats I have taken:
1st Deepsight
3rd Craft Wonderous Item
5th Craft Wand
Here are feats I am planning to take:
7th Craft Magic Armor and Arms, Still Spell (Bonus feat)
9th Empower Spell
11th Maximize Spell, Spell Focus (Bonus Spell)
13th Quicken Spell
15th Spell Perfection
17th Spell Penetration
19th Greater Spell Penetration (Haven't decided yet on bonus feat)
What I am asking is any suggestions, tips of other feats, keeping in the focus of my character that I have described. Or, if you feel the feats I have chosen are decent, please suggest if you feel a different order is more appropriate in how I choose them.
If you do suggest other feats, please, please suggest what feats you would replace them with. There are many feats I would like to take, but the difficult part is figuring out which ones to take out for the new ones. Right now I like my selection, but if you feel another feat is better, please suggest which one you would take out for it, and why you think the new feat would be better than it.
Finally, please do not suggest races, bloodlines or anything that I can no longer take or that is already established for my level. I appreciate it for future 'new' builds, but I am looking for suggestions on what race and bloodline I currently have.
Thank you to those taking the time to read! And thank you for any suggestions or tips. :)
I would strongly suggest Persistent Spell over Still Spell. Still Spell is VERY situational, whereas Persistent spell is consistently useful. I have run the numbers and Persistent Spell is equivalent to about a +3 or +4 bump to save DC.
I would use your next opportunity to switch spells to forget sleep and learn Grease or Silent Image.
Still Spell is an Arcane bonus feat, and Persistent Spell is not one of the bonus feat selections, so that is unfortunately not an option.
But I have been thinking about switching out Sleep (or Colorspray) for Grease. Possibly Silent Image as well, but I have always been one who likes the more direct route than subterfuge. :)
Once again, Still Spell is one of my Arcane bonus feats, so I can’t substitute it for Silent Spell.
And I’m not sure I want to take out one of my main level feats for Silent Spell.
I'd still suggest Persistent Spell over Empower Spell. It's useful for far more spells and it's a stronger effect for the same spell level bump. The combined effect with the Arcane bloodline arcana is very potent.
Even if all you ever do with Silent Image is create will-save-to-disbelieve walls and cover effects, it's an extremely powerful 1st level spell. You don't have to be that creative.
Create Pit is a favorite of mine for a level 2 spell. It takes an enemy out of the fight for rounds / level, it combos with a lot of other spells (like Stinking Cloud and Cloudkill), and it's especially great if you can convince your front line guy to spec towards bull rushing, or if you have summoned monsters with high CMBs. It's Reflex-or-suck which is good, and it ignores Spell Resistance and creates a powerful battlefield control effect.
It's a shame you don't have access to the human bonus spells. But I've been thinking about running a Hobgoblin campaign myself.
Improved Invisibility might be better than Still Spell (and it's actually a bonus feat!).
I probably wouldn't bother with Maximize Spell. Maybe Intensify Spell instead, if you're into blasting.
Craft Wand is a bit of an oddball choice, but wands of Magic Missile could come in handy.
What are the other PCs?
Well first of all I would suggest taking Disguise Self or at least getting a wand of it. That should allow you to pass as a human long enough to make purchases in Human settlements... or to avoid conflict if you cross passes with a patrol.
What type of caster are you going for? CC heavy, Buffer, DPS? I understand you want to craft but what do you concentrate on during combat... also another question... are you guys Evil Hobgoblins or a community of good Hobgoblins?
If your a good aligned group and the Orc is headed your way then making friends with the humans should be a top priority. They could be great allies if orcs enter your shared area.
Ok, finally have an opportunity to get back to some of the replies.
I'd still suggest Persistent Spell over Empower Spell. It's useful for far more spells and it's a stronger effect for the same spell level bump. The combined effect with the Arcane bloodline arcana is very potent.
Even if all you ever do with Silent Image is create will-save-to-disbelieve walls and cover effects, it's an extremely powerful 1st level spell. You don't have to be that creative.
Create Pit is a favorite of mine for a level 2 spell. It takes an enemy out of the fight for rounds / level, it combos with a lot of other spells (like Stinking Cloud and Cloudkill), and it's especially great if you can convince your front line guy to spec towards bull rushing, or if you have summoned monsters with high CMBs. It's Reflex-or-suck which is good, and it ignores Spell Resistance and creates a powerful battlefield control effect.
It's a shame you don't have access to the human bonus spells. But I've been thinking about running a Hobgoblin campaign myself.
I can tell you prefer control (over blasting) from the posts you have given, and that is completely fine. I do like control as well, but I do favor blasting over control, just for the fact I find it a bit more fun.
However, I do realize that control is more powerful overall, and currently have, and will have, my share of control type spells. Right now my spell selection is around 60/40 in favor of control, but when I get into my teens, I am going to probably be more in the area of 70/30 for blasting. That is why I have feats that go along with that.
May I ask why you feel Persistent Spell is more potent with the Arcane Bloodline?
I very well may use Silent Image yet. I had picked up a couple of Minor Image scrolls earlier on (through treasure) and they definitely came in handy. I also have had casters with Silent Image before, so I am not new to the spell. And I agree, quite useful.
Create Pit is definitely an interesting spell, I have never used that one before. I will need to think on using that one.
Improved Invisibility might be better than Still Spell (and it's actually a bonus feat!).
I probably wouldn't bother with Maximize Spell. Maybe Intensify Spell instead, if you're into blasting.
Craft Wand is a bit of an oddball choice, but wands of Magic Missile could come in handy.
What are the other PCs?
I'm assuming you mean Improved Initiative, not Improved Invisibility? That is a possibility, I chose Still Spell as there has been more than once where I've wished I had Still Spell in our campaign (tied up, being held, etc). But you (and others) are probably correct in that it is too situational.
As I said above, I do plan to concentrate more on blasting at higher levels as that is when the feats really become useful. May I ask why you prefer Intensify Spell over Maximize? I actually don't find Intensify useful until very high levels due to you need to have the caster levels to use the additional 5 dice.
I can see why you would think Craft Wand may be a bit odd for a Sorcerer. But part of our settlement, we do have classed NPCs that we have recruited over time (other monsters). For example, we have a Wizard, Cleric and Druid just to name a few. And my DM allows them to do cooperative crafting with me in regards to making wands. I already have crafted a Wand of Fireball with the Wizard.
The PCs that we have are is a 3 Fighter/2 Ranger, 5 Inquisitor, 5 Rogue and myself, a 5 Sorcerer. There are also a 2 Fighter/3 Wizard and 5 Ranger, but they are unfortunately rarely able to show up, so we normally take NPCs along instead. Even our friend who is playing the Inquisitor can't show up consistently, so a lot of times it's just myself, the Fighter/Ranger and the Rogue.
Well first of all I would suggest taking Disguise Self or at least getting a wand of it. That should allow you to pass as a human long enough to make purchases in Human settlements... or to avoid conflict if you cross passes with a patrol.
What type of caster are you going for? CC heavy, Buffer, DPS? I understand you want to craft but what do you concentrate on during combat... also another question... are you guys Evil Hobgoblins or a community of good Hobgoblins?
If your a good aligned group and the Orc is headed your way then making friends with the humans should be a top priority. They could be great allies if orcs enter your shared area.
It's ironic you bring that up in regards to Disguise Self. We do have a wand of it, picked up in treasure in an earlier adventure. It has been very useful the times we have used it.
We tried to have the rogue go into town to buy supplies one time (using the Disguise Self wand). He also had a couple points of the Disguise skill. However, he ended up getting discovered by a nearby guard patrol on the way to the store. That is an amusing story in itself, it's a miracle he made it out of town.
I'm pretty sure the whole thing was luck on the guards part, as normally our rogue can stealth easily enough to avoid patrols and his disguise skill (with the spell) was pretty good, on top of it. I'm guessing the guard rolled really well, but we've been kind of hesitant to try it again since then. However, that was a few levels ago, maybe he would have more success now.
I plan on concentrating mostly on blasting, with a bit of control here and there. As I said above, I am more in the area of 60/40 in favor of control right now, but I plan later on to be in the area of 70/30 in favor of blasting. Is it as effective as control, no, it's not. But I find blasting a bit more fun. And I think I am pretty good in choosing times when I need to cast those control spells.
We are neither good or evil, true neutral, actually. However, I would say with our actions over the campaign we definitely lean towards the good side.
We have already thought about your advice of making allies with the humans, although, with the exception of the Paladin, we are more the silent ally.
As I said above, Ozai (the big bad orc) has begun to push further south with his armies and has been giving the humans a lot of headaches. We have struck here and there against Ozai's patrols/armies, but we always clean up afterwards.
Just recently, we helped the humans take down a new, large orc fort that was being built in a strategic location and would have really hurt the humans sea travel. We basically poisoned the orcs drinking water. It killed some of them, but mostly just made them very sick, where the humans followed it up with an attack on the fort and the orcs were in no condition to defend themselves, so they lost the fort.
But our strike was done secretly, only known to the Paladin, so there was nothing to report of us. And the times we have attacked 'bad guys' straight out, we killed everyone, or did so stealthy, so there was nothing to tell about us.
The Arcane bloodline arcana is +1 to the DC of any spells affected by metamagic feats, so Persistent Spell would mean the opponent needs to save twice at the increased DC in order to avoid the spell's full effect.
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At 5th level you might not want to have Sleep on your spell list, assuming your making something new. The spells cartel listed were pretty solid, and I'd even recommend a protection spell or Enlarge Person. You can always experiment and swap the spell out at 6th level too after all.
Going craft heavy isn't usually the best route for a Sorcerer just given that you'll need to rely on others for pre-req spells or spend money on scrolls that might not be for sale at the place your at. Yer not a 20 int wizard, so you might not be able to eat the big penalties for crafting very easily right away. You'd be better using those slots for your metamagic feats or nabbing those spell penetration feats when you'll need them more. You might be in a "self sufficient" town, but your still adventurers so your main source of gear should be actually adventuring. If anything a self-sufficient campaign should be more of a change of thinking towards less pre-planning out characters just in case you get a hold of something really amazing, especially if your GM doesn't traditionally include items in treasure holds that the PC's can us and instead just tosses out things randomly.
Just had the opportunity to get back to this thread now.
I didn't see in your stat block whether you were going with a familiar or arcane bond.
I like the familiar better (one of the birds in your situation would be my pick), but if you go arcane bond you could eventually make a ring a Ring of Chameleon power. That would save you a spell, but there are other rings you might want, like a Ring of the Ram.
Sorry, forgot to put that down. I went down the arcane bond route. I've done familiars before, and wanted to try something different. Also, there just wasn't a familiar I really wanted for my character.
I chose an amulet as my bonded item. I thought about a ring, but thought it would be too difficult to get a ring done up to combine magic item abilities (i.e. two items) as there are several rings I want to eventually wear for my Sorcerer, and I cannot switch out my bonded item, for obvious reasons.
The Arcane bloodline arcana is +1 to the DC of any spells affected by metamagic feats, so Persistent Spell would mean the opponent needs to save twice at the increased DC in order to avoid the spell's full effect.
Ah yes, of course, how could I forget.
I will have to keep Persistent Spell in mind. You recommended it over Empower Spell, correct?
At 5th level you might not want to have Sleep on your spell list, assuming your making something new. The spells cartel listed were pretty solid, and I'd even recommend a protection spell or Enlarge Person. You can always experiment and swap the spell out at 6th level too after all.
Going craft heavy isn't usually the best route for a Sorcerer just given that you'll need to rely on others for pre-req spells or spend money on scrolls that might not be for sale at the place your at. Yer not a 20 int wizard, so you might not be able to eat the big penalties for crafting very easily right away. You'd be better using those slots for your metamagic feats or nabbing those spell penetration feats when you'll need them more. You might be in a "self sufficient" town, but your still adventurers so your main source of gear should be actually adventuring. If anything a self-sufficient campaign should be more of a change of thinking towards less pre-planning out characters just in case you get a hold of something really amazing, especially if your GM doesn't traditionally include items in treasure holds that the PC's can us and instead just tosses out things randomly.
Yes, as I mentioned before, I was thinking about switching out Sleep for maybe Grease, or even Silent Image. The one thing about my DM is even though we may be in the levels above where Sleep would be effective, he doesn't always send us against equal CRs. He likes to do the 'wear down resources' before the larger battle sometimes, and we can find ourselves running into kobolds, goblins, etc. at higher levels, as well. Which is why I was thinking about keeping Sleep, but dumping Colorspray (due to short range). Or do you think it would just be more worthwhile to hit the small CRs with a well placed Fireball?
.Yes, I see what you are saying about the penalty for the craft feats for the Sorcerer, and I should be investing in my metamagic and spell penetration feats earlier on. However, I can't say I agree with depending wholly on adventuring for our wonderous items, magic armor and weapons. There are times our DM will place treasure, but most times he rolls, and that's what we get. I don't want to place our chances on a die roll of what we get compared to what we actually need.
And as we can't just go to the nearest town to sell the gear and buy magic items we need/want, I felt the best option is just to make our own so we have control over it. Nevermind the half price, as well. And it has worked out well. I actually have crafted a +5 to Spellcraft headband that I use only for crafting, and haven't run into a problem making items (that we can afford) by even Taking 10.
Do you mean other party members in taking the burden as putting points into the craft skill?
We do have party members who are putting points into craft to craft the base items, help build and upkeep the town (and our keelboat) or points into Profession to pilot our boat or make maps. So everyone is pitching in.
Or do you mean someone, a non-caster, taking Master Craftsman? Yes, they could, but I felt as the main spellcaster it would be best I would do so. And also, it was something I wanted to do. I have never crafted before now. I didn’t like the burning of xp in 3.0/3.5, and when Paizo did away with it in Pathfinder, I wanted to try it out.
I will admit, Wizard would have been a better choice. However, I have always preferred Sorcerers over Wizards, and with the ability to take +5 DC for spells I don’t know, I can live with that.
And yes, it does hurt on my own feat selection to better my character, but I am willing to make that choice. If I went to my friends (other party members) and said I don’t want to take ‘x’ Item creation feats, they would have no problem with that. This is something I wanted to do.
Ah yes, of course, how could I forget.
I will have to keep Persistent Spell in mind. You recommended it over Empower Spell, correct?
Personally, I would, yes. Persistent Spell can apply to most of your spells, control and blast alike. Using it increases the likelihood of your spells taking full effect (and, by consequence, increasing the expected damage when applied to a blast spell).
I just noticed you took Craft Wand -- a much weaker option for a sorcerer than it is for a wizard, since every spell you know is already at your fingertips. Is your goal to grant other party members access to spells you know that they need to use frequently? Which spells in particular do you have in mind for wand creation?
Please take no offense at what I’m about to say, but I did explain this already in the thread on why I took Craft Wand.
Here is what I said above, and still holds true:
I can see why you would think Craft Wand may be a bit odd for a Sorcerer. But part of our settlement, we do have classed NPCs that we have recruited over time (other monsters). For example, we have a Wizard, Cleric and Druid just to name a few. And my DM allows them to do cooperative crafting with me in regards to making wands. I already have crafted a Wand of Fireball with the Wizard.
Basically put, with the cooperative crafting of the other classed characters (NPCs) it allows me to have more spell options than my limited selection. Also, I will be able to craft cure wands with our Cleric NPC (he is now 3rd level) and when I can raise my Use Magic Device up to a good enough level (at a 12, now), I can craft a Cure Light Wounds or Cure Moderate Wounds and be able to use it at a decent success rate when we do not have a healer with us. Also, Cure wands are never a bad thing to have.
And thank you on the suggestion for Persistent Spell, I will seriously think about taking it.
All of your spells are focused on YOU. That's ok, but you can really get quite a lot done indirectly.
If you bother to calculate it out, Haste is FAR more damage than Fireball will ever be.
Sure, sure, blasting is fun, and it's worked well so far. But let's face it, you'll never be 2nd level again. As you continue to gain levels, you'll fight more and more creatures with spell resistance or energy resistance or evasion, or all three.
You will come to a point, someday, where you are facing enemies that you cannot affect at all with blasting. Go ahead, flip though and look at the monsters that you fight at 10th level....
...now that you are back, please consider spells that help your allies.
This higher level opponent is also why you do NOT need a third casting feat.
It's nice to be able to make a necklace of fireballs. Or a wand of fireballs. Or a flaming sword. But if you can do all three, you have now spent three feats (which is a LOT of feats) on doing fire damage.
Even worse, you're going to start running into fire-proof enemies soon, if you haven't already.
You could do fire damage with Wondrous Items already. So, spending a third feat gets you almost no return. That's not efficient.
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If you're really concerned about your group and your ability to help them, then don't you owe them good decisions?
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Example: Caster one makes three keen weapons for the party. Seems like the kind of thing that would help, right? We're going from +1 to +2 magic weapons, so that's +6000 gp each. Total cost = 18,000.
Caster two makes a wand of keen edge. Takes a bit more time to set up, but can be used by more people, and used on more people. Total cost is 11,250, which is thousands less.
Most important, caster two has a spare feat. That's what, 25% percent more feats at this level? That's a big deal.
I'm assuming you mean Improved Initiative, not Improved Invisibility?
D'oh! Yes.
As I said above, I do plan to concentrate more on blasting at higher levels as that is when the feats really become useful. May I ask why you prefer Intensify Spell over Maximize? I actually don't find Intensify useful until very high levels due to you need to have the caster levels to use the additional 5 dice.
For spells that do 1d6/level damage, Maximize is just barely better than Empower (e.g. 52.5 vs. 60 damage for a CL 10 fireball); it's mostly redundant, unless you can find a bunch of spells that do d8/level or d10/level. You're probably right that Intensify Spell isn't that great either (although note that an Intensified Empowered Fireball starts doing more damage than a Maximized Fireball starting at level 12). Maybe Reach Spell, Dazing Spell or Piercing Spell would be better. (As noted, Persistent Spell is probably the best, but I think it's a bit cheesy.)
I can see why you would think Craft Wand may be a bit odd for a Sorcerer. But part of our settlement, we do have classed NPCs that we have recruited over time (other monsters). For example, we have a Wizard, Cleric and Druid just to name a few. And my DM allows them to do cooperative crafting with me in regards to making wands. I already have crafted a Wand of Fireball with the Wizard.
Makes sense, although it doesn't look like there are a lot of wand-users in your usual party. CLW wands, maybe.
To rkaus2:
You won’t get any disagreement with me on Haste, phenomenal spell. I have always taken it, even as a Sorcerer. We are a little less than a thousand XP from leveling (to 6th), and have been debating on taking Fireball or Haste. Either way, even if I took Fireball at 6th level, I would be taking Haste as soon as I received another 3rd level known spell.
I’ve casted buff spells and control spells, but I’ve also casted blast spells, even at higher levels. I’m not new playing a Sorcerer, even at higher levels. I know how to help my party, and I feel have done a pretty good job at it.
I am just new to using metamagic feats, so I was looking for suggestions from others what they feel would be better on those feats, or what order they would take the feats.
But please do not try to insinuate I do not help my party, or I am ineffective in helping them, because it has far from being the case.
However, I will take some of your suggestions in mind. Thank you.
Since you have other low level casters to help you make various wands, you may want the staff-like-wand to get the most use out of them.
I'm not sure what I would switch out for it though. Probably one of the meta magics. I do like meta magics for a sorc, but you have more of them then I think I would use consistently. But that may just be me.
Hogarth,
You bring up some good points about Maximize. Maybe I will switch that out with Dazing or Persistent. And why do you think ‘Persistent’ is cheesy?
As for wand users, you are right, most times we don’t have a lot of them in our party. But the wands are more for myself, or the times we do have other casters in our group. The wands give me the flexibility to cast spells I normally cannot cast in combat (due to my limited known spell list).
You bring up some good points about Maximize. Maybe I will switch that out with Dazing or Persistent. And why do you think ‘Persistent’ is cheesy?
It's just really good! :-)
Seriously, being able to lower the target's chance of saving from 50% to 25% (say) is a big advantage and I'm not sure if raising the spell level by 2 is balanced. But I have no personal experience with it and YMMV, of course.
Ok now that I know your going for blasting. Intensify and Empower are two very good feats for blasters. I wouldnt go without taking both.
Spells
1st Level - Magic Missile, Colorspray, Sleep, Mage Armor
Bloodline Spell: Identify2nd Level - Glitterdust, Scorching Ray
Bloodline Spell: Invisibility
Hobbun, if I implied you can't play the game, or anything like that, I'm sorry. That's not what I mean. But when I look at this spell list, I see a spell list which is almost entirely attack spells. Even for a blaster, that's a surprise. Yes, blasting the enemy to death does help the party, of course. But it won't always work, and I don't see a plan B, unless it's turn invisible and run away.
Lets take a closer look:
At first level, I see three attacks (60%), one utility spell (identify) and one defense (mage armor).
At second level, I see two attacks (67%), and one utility spell.
You're a bit of a glass cannon, and it doesn't appear you would do well against an enemy blaster. You could also have trouble with brute enemies that can do a lot of damage quickly, like trolls.
Furthermore, three of your spells (sleep, color spray, and glitterdust) are similar = make a will save or you're out of the fight. Glitterdust is great because it also reveals enemies, but sleep and color spray overlap quite a lot. I'd trade one at 6th level.
You do not have a spell yet that targets reflex or fortitude, so I'd put that on the 'to do' list. Against high AC foes, you have scorching ray and magic missile. That's good to see.
Against foes with spell resistance, there's very little that you can do. That's something to fix as well. Options include SR = no spells, or party buff spells. You also have no defense vs. grappling, so that's a worry as well.
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I'm going to encourage you to include the metamagiced spells on your spell list. So, next level, you can cast third level spells. What to take?
Before you decide, remember that you are also getting still invisibility, and something like empowered magic missile, or extended glitterdust as third level spells.
If you can already do damage with your third level slots, then haste edges out fireball for pick one, at least in my book.
rkaus2, sorry if I sounded a bit snippy, but the 'now don't you owe them good decisions?' hit a nerve.
But anyways, your evaluations are very accurate and I do need to make changes. Wonderful post, this is exactly what I was looking for in regards to input. Thank you!
As for my 1st level spells, I had planned on switching out Color Spray or Sleep. I was leaning more on Color Spray. However much I love the spell, I do find it very limiting in it's range, due to I am usually not that close to the enemies.
Again, I do agree with you that I do have holes in some areas of spells, but then it is difficult to cover all those areas in two spell levels, especially with a Sorcerer. As I get higher level, and having more known spells, it will be easier.
But if you have recommendations for my first two spells levels to cover some of those holes, please feel free to give suggestions.
Also, as for having no spells against SR, don't you think it's a bit early to worry about that right now? We haven't run into anything with SR as of yet, but I do agree it is something I will need to keep in mind soon enough. It's too bad the orbs are no longer in Pathfinder.
I was leaning towards Haste for my first 3rd level spell, and after your post, I think I am going to stay with that first thought. I have enough damaging spells earlier on, especially the Scorching Ray, where I can make do for now.
For spells that do 1d6/level damage, Maximize is just barely better than Empower (e.g. 52.5 vs. 60 damage for a CL 10 fireball); it's mostly redundant, unless you can find a bunch of spells that do d8/level or d10/level. You're probably right that Intensify Spell isn't that great either (although note that an Intensified Empowered Fireball starts doing more damage than a Maximized Fireball starting at level 12).
How would that exactly work with Empower and Intensify? Let's use your example of a 12th level caster. You are casting Fireball, I'm assuming it would be Intensified (brought to 12d6) and then Empowered to 18d6?
I second persistant spell. It's the most powerful metamagic in the game, hands down. We've houseruled it to +3 levels and banned the rods and it's STILL the most commonly chosen metamagic feat. For a reason.
You can patch holes for a while with scrolls. And there are some good environmental spells like create pit and grease that affect the target by affecting the world they live in.
Persistent spell is good, but Dazing spell at least to me seems so much more broken. Each blast you do has a massive chance of being a save or suck for the enemy, as you can just functionally take your opponents out of the fight without them being able to act for several turns. Actually, come to think of it, Persistent spell and Dazing spell also combine very well. Also, if you're going the heavy metamagic route, why not take craft rod so you can take advantage of your metamagic feats in the fullest? I would take craft rod over one of the other crafting options.
I would take Quicken Spell 11th level as well. You really want to be casting two spells per turn as quickly as possible. It's just such a good option, you really want to be doing it sooner rather than later.
I don't usually find quickening most 1st level spells to be worth a 5th level slot. Although grease sometimes is.
I'm not a big proponent until you can quicken at least the 2nd level spells.
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Ok, after hearing a lot of the suggestions and ideas, here is my revised spell list:
1st level: Magic Missile, Grease (switched out Color Spray), Sleep, Mage Armor
Bloodline Spell: Identify
2nd level: Glitterdust, Scorching Ray
Bloodline Spell: Invisibility
When attaining first 3rd level spell: Haste
Revised Feat list:
1st Deepsight
3rd Craft Wonderous Item
5th Craft Wand
Feats yet to take:
7th Craft Magic Armor and Arms, Spell Focus (Bonus feat)
9th Empower Spell
11th Persistent Spell
13th Quicken Spell, Improved Initiative (Bonus Feat)
15th Spell Perfection
17th Spell Penetration
19th Greater Spell Penetration, Combat Casting (Bonus Feat)
I got rid of Maximize and Still Spell, put in Persistent and Improved Initiative. I also added Combat Casting as my 19th level Bonus Bloodline spell. I was hoping to still fit Dazing Spell in there, but just don’t know where to put it.
I am also debating on getting rid of Greater Spell Penetration. However, I don’t want to replace it with Dazing as my penetration for SR would be too low, so I was thinking of putting in Piercing Spell, instead.
If we go epic, I guess I can then add Dazing Spell and Greater Spell Penetration.
Please let me know what you think.
You keep saying I haven’t told the composition of my part, however, I have:
The PCs that we have are is a 3 Fighter/2 Ranger, 5 Inquisitor, 5 Rogue and myself, a 5 Sorcerer. There are also a 2 Fighter/3 Wizard and 5 Ranger, but they are unfortunately rarely able to show up, so we normally take NPCs along instead. Even our friend who is playing the Inquisitor can't show up consistently, so a lot of times it's just myself, the Fighter/Ranger and the Rogue.
If you are asking what ‘each’ person has for feats, skills or spells, I can’t give you a detailed list.
I am not the only caster in the party, but I am a lot of the times. Just due to the fact a couple of the other PCs can’t show more times than they are able to. However, we usually will have an NPC take their place. Although, as I’ve said, we do have other caster NPCs.We have established a contact in a large elven town (besides the Paladin) where we can buy items. However, until I get Teleport (quite far in the future), it is a long trip to get there. In the area of weeks by boat.
Charm Person is a powerful spell, but just not one I want to take. Besides, I would rather have the defense towards my AC as it is quite pitiful at 11. Granted, you could say not a huge difference in having an additional +4, especially at that AC, but it has saved me more than once with the small CR creatures with ranged attacks.
Not exactly what you mean by my character being ‘piecemeal’, I feel I’ve given a good description in my previous posts on the focus of our campaign and what I am looking to do. I went down the Arcane bloodline route, so, along with the Item Creation feats, would like to focus on Metamagic feats due to the obvious bonus for my bloodline.
So I’ve been asking for suggestions on metamagic that work well together, and are good to take as I haven’t really had much experience in taking metamagic feats in the past. Not really sure what else to tell you.
So does anyone else have any comments or suggestions on my revised build?
I’m sorry if I came across as that way. Yes, as I said it originally hit a nerve when rkaus2 made a comment to me on making good decision to help my party , but I did apologize, told him his suggestions were very helpful (and they were) and thanked him.
If I came across as unappreciative towards you, I did not mean to, James.
As for my other party members, the problem is there are only usually 3, sometimes 4, mainstay PCs with us at a time. If we are short, then our DM will run one of the aforementioned NPCs (on the class we are short on).
But I will do my best to list the abilities I remember from the other party members.
3 Fighter/2 Ranger: He is focusing on TWF. He actually wields two weapons, one weapon considered as a double weapon. I believe he has a short sword and a bastard sword right now. He has Power Attack and just picked up Double Slice at 5th level. He also has a +3 Strength bow and wears mithral scale mail
Stat-wise I believe he has both a 16 Str. and Dex and a 14 Con. (We get a bonus +2 Con and Dex for being Hobgoblins).
As for skills, his strengths (7 or more) are Survival, Perception (through the Ranger levels), Climb, Stealth, and Craft:Armorsmithing. I believe he also has Knowledge: Nature, as well as a few other skills, but they are lower than 5. Oh, and his HPs are in the mid 60s.
5 Rogue: I couldn’t tell you his stats. I believe he has a 19-20 Dex and mainly attacks with his short sword. His skills are more focused, his Stealth, Perception and Disable Device are well over 10. (I believe his Stealth and Disable Device may even be 15). Ironically, he has the best Diplomacy of the group at 9. Also, he is our captain when going out on the sea. He has Profession: Mariner and Craft: Boat. Also, he has Craft: Weaponsmithing.
I know one of his Rogue talents is Fast Stealth, but I am not sure on his other one. Feat-wise I believe he has Precise Shot and has a talent (or feat) that helps on damage with his short sword. HP-wise, I believe he has around 30.
I guess I should tell you my skills, as I haven’t done that yet. I don’t have my character sheet in front of me, but from what I recall my Spellcraft is 10, Knowledge: Arcana 8, Knowledge of the Planes 9, Profession: Cooking 5, Climb 2 (Strength modifier), Diplomacy 4 (Cha. Modifier), Bluff 4 (modifier) and Use Magic Device 12.
We are the ‘main three’ that show up. The other three I list I know very little about, but will try to tell you as much as I can. And they show up as they are just are very busy. Either being married, having kids, school, or a combination of the first two. All of which I completely respect and understand.
5 Inquisitor: Again, don’t know a lot about him. I believe his two strong stats are Wis (I think 16) and Dex 14. He uses a masterwork heavy repeating crossbow.
Spell-wise, I know he has taken Cure Light and Cure Moderate as part of his spell list. So he is our ‘healer’ when he is able to play.
With the exception of Spellcraft and Profession: Masonry, I could not tell you what he has for skills.
5 Ranger: She cannot show up all that often due to getting her masters. Because of that, I have really no idea where her character is at, and it probably actually needs to be updated a couple of levels for how long she has missed.
But from what I recall before, she is going down the ranged route. Her skills are pretty standard for a Ranger. Strong in Knowledge: Nature, Survival, Perception, Stealth. I believe she even has Knowledge Geography.
2 Wizard/3 Fighter: This is the character I know the least about as he has shown up the least. I believe he is at second level right now, so the 3 Fighter is a guess. However, he did say he planned to go down the Eldritch Knight route, and wanted to take a couple levels of Wizard and then go into Fighter before going to the prestige class. But what he truly would level his character to, is hard to know for sure. I pretty much consider him a non-factor right now.
And finally, as mentioned above, we have our share NPCs that help round out our party when some can’t make it. We have a very good balance on classes we are missing. Wizard, Cleric, Bard and Monk. Nevermind the plethora of NPC experts at town that helps us keep our community going.
I hope that was more helpful. Again, I apologize for coming across as too defensive and/or not appreciating input, it’s definitely not the case.
It is difficult, making a sorcerer to be the only magic item crafter because it takes so many feats and you don't have the extras of the wizard.
I would at least request the inquisitor as a full caster to take at least one of them to ease your burden. Maybe the arms and armor.
Maybe one of the multiclass casters could eventually take craft wand since that will never need the high level spells.
I would consider some defensive type feats to replace them. Toughness, iron will, combat casting (much sooner), etc... But that kinda depends on the campaign, group, and GM. If you never find yourself failing saves or getting beat down, you may not need it.
Then you may want the spell focus and greater spell focus to up your spell DC's as much as possible.
Toppling spell would be nice if you want to go heavily into force spells for your blasting.
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Some of the piecemeal may be because you spell selection doesn't seem to narrow down toward a concept like many people do.
I believe you said you want to be a blaster, but 3 of your small selection of spells are really more of a debuffer/controller type of spell.
As a blaster are you looking toward elemental damage or maybe force damage? If elemental, all 4 or concentrating on 1?
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As far as spells, I think what some people are saying is that instead of focusing on what spells you have now, you should focus on what spells you will eventually have in total. Many people seem to start with level 20 spell list then work backward to when they will pick each one. I don't usually do that. I find that can give me a selection that is unsurvivable at lower levels.
One thing I try to do is get at least 1 each of defensive, offensive, buff, and utility spells at each spell level before I start doubling up on offensive spells. however, it is best if you can find some that do double duty. Glitterdust is a prime example. Offensive and utility.
You have 3 offensive 1st level spells. To me that seems heavy. Not completely unreasonable though, they are all good spells. I would probably switch one out for a more utility type spell. Summon Mon I to spring traps, flank, and scout. Detect secret doors if you don't have a good searcher. Detect undead if you have been seeing alot of them. Minor image can be very versatile and amusing.
Also, for you next offensive spell, I would try to find one you like that targets a fort save.
Well, I can ask if he wants to take Arms and Armor, but again, he rarely shows up. Also, as I said before, taking the creation feats is something what I wanted to do.
I do understand I am 'watering' myself down with the item creation feats. I know I am far from an optimized caster, and that's ok.
The item creation is part of my character, it is something I want, so I would like to keep them. I wasn't looking for suggestions so much on to replace the creation feats, but what others suggest on the space I have left for metamagic feats, which is also part of the focus of my character.
And to be clear, I was originally looking at a 70/30 split in favor of blasting over control down the road. However, after some good posts on suggestions, I may actually go more with control and buffs.
I appreciate the suggestions on the defensive feats, but I am ok without those. Like I said, I want to keep the item creation feats in place.
To be honest, I didn't have a focus on a certain element in regards to my blasting. What I was thinking of doing was picking 'good' blasting spells and if I need to change elements, I going to try and get metamagic Elemental rods.
That's a great tip on having at least one offensive, buff and utility spell each level. We are ok for secret door searching, but I may go for Summon Monster 1. So would you suggest not going with Grease when switching out Color Spray?
And finally, do you know which 2nd level spells target fortitude saves?
Thanks for the great tips and suggestions.
And finally, do you know which 2nd level spells target fortitude saves?
Consider Frost Fall.
Stinking cloud is a great fort save spell, and blocks charge lines and vision too.
It's third level, though.
...What I was thinking of doing was picking 'good' blasting spells...
You know, with that many metamagic feats, you could get by with as few as five blasting spells, and then modify them as needed...
1st: Magic Missile
2nd: Scorching Ray, Glitterdust
3rd: Fireball, Empowered Magic Missile
4th: Empowered Scorching Ray, Persistent Glitterdust
5th: Empowered Fireball, Persistent Fireball, Quickened Magic Missile
6th: Disintegrate, Quickened Glitterdust, Quickened Scorching Ray
7th: Empowered Persistent Fireball, Quickened Fireball
8th: Empowered Disintegrate
9th: Quickened Empowered Fireball
And this is why metamagic feats are cool for sorcerors.
We are ok for secret door searching, but I may go for Summon Monster 1.Consider the Mount spell instead of Summon Monster 1. The duration difference is insane and the mount is actually more durable.
You might consider leadership instead of craft arms & armor. Have the cohort take that feat and a few others. Have him & the followers reinforce your current base of operations. Done right this might be a perfect fit for you. You would still be crafting the wondrous items, but at the same time the cohort could be making the arms & armor.Do you have any traits? If there is a single spell that you decide to focus upon there are a few traits that will augment it very nicely.
As for 'dabbling' in blasting.. it doesn't work all that well. Decent blasters need to be built around blasting to scale well. Consider the blasting that you will do as softening for the other PCs rather than 'blasting' and I think that you will meander into a decent mix.
I would swap out scorching ray for something else. Create Pit is nice in that it also creates a 10x10 pit that monsters will not be crossing.. beyond getting some of the enemy to fall/be split with their comrades it can help funnel the remaining ones. I would think towards this as you say you tend to have a small party. Command Undead is also nice. I typically call it the 4th level spell that requires only a 2nd level spell slot. If you are finding a decent number of undead this is just purely awesome.
-James
You asked about traits, I have both Reactionary (+2 Init.) and History of Heresy (+1 against Divine spells). If I had forethought, I would have taken Magical Lineage. Maybe my GM will let me swap out.
I've been told more than once that Create Pit is one to take. I think I will do so, although not sure I want to switch out Scorching Ray for it. I've always liked the damage of Scorching Ray, especially now with Empower.
And I can live with the caster who 'softens' up the opposition for the rest of the party. As I said, I do realize I am by no means a focused and true blaster. I am actually finding it kind of fun this time in using more control spells.
Thank you for all the suggestions and tips, James.
I'd reconsider taking a ring as your bonded item. You mention that you want a lot of rings for your sorcerer and dont want to fill the slot. I reccomend you reread the arcane bond description. A lot of people seem to miss this for some reason.
You're considered to have Craft (X) for whatever bonded item you choose. That's one of your rings for half price and a spellcraft roll. I notice you don't have craft ring, and this seems the most surefire way to get your hands on the loot I want, and you can already craft amulets with your craft wondrous item feat.
Would it be too late to make the switch?
That'd be my only advice for improving your character. Your initial build seems fine to me.
Seriously?
You get a free magic item creation feat that covers whatever slot you choose for your bonded item?
Yes, I did miss that if that is the case.
Could you please quote that part of it, please?
Edit: Just looked it up...wow. How did I miss that.
A wizard can add additional magic abilities to his bonded object as if he has the required item creation feats and if he meets the level prerequisites of the feat. For example, a wizard with a bonded dagger must be at least 5th level to add magic abilities to the dagger (see the Craft Magic Arms and Armor feat in Feats)
Although that applies only for your bonded item. I wouldn't be able to make another ring.
Either way, it would be worthwhile to check with my DM to switch. Thanks for pointing that out!
So what? Make a feather falling ring of wizardry and protection, +4
Yeah, it'd only apply to the single item so I may have oversold it a bit, so you couldn't craft two rings, and you have to hit the caster level requirement (7th for a ring) before you can do so.
But I'll be damned if it isnt one of the coolest class feature of any class, and rkraus is right in that you can combine the effects via the item creation rules (albiet for a pretty exorbitant price, if I recall).
Good luck with your game.