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I hate rolling stats, if only because my dice are trolls. Ever since purchasing them, whenever I pick up 4d6 and roll them I always get middling numbers. My average set looks like this;
13, 14, 14, 13, 15, 14
I hate it. I refuse to roll with other people's dice because they aren't mine, I don't want my dice to find out I've been cheating on them. The last time that happened I botched a Willpower roll in Mage: The Awakening and ended up a Marauder.
You think that is average? Just because you will not have an 18 does not mean that's a middling array of numbers.
But this attitude is a perfect example why 4d6 drop the lowest is the way to go. With point-buy, it's about min-maxing stats to make sure that after race bump you have an 18. What this has done has turned players into thinking that the stat array above is average.
I suppose it depends. If I have a definite character concept in mind, (e.g., "I really want to play an elven rogue-sorcerer with a personality disorder"), then I prefer point-buy. If I am just starting a game, and have no particular idea what or who I want to play, then I prefer rolling the character.
I used to swear by 4d6 x 6 in any order, but over time, I've migrated to 3d6 x 12, taking the six of my choice in any order. The craziest system I ever played under was 5d6, re-roll 1's and 2's, and put them in any order, but that was 2nd edition where the bonuses were a very different animal than they are now.
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I hate rolling stats, if only because my dice are trolls. Ever since purchasing them, whenever I pick up 4d6 and roll them I always get middling numbers. My average set looks like this;
13, 14, 14, 13, 15, 14
I hate it. I refuse to roll with other people's dice because they aren't mine, I don't want my dice to find out I've been cheating on them. The last time that happened I botched a Willpower roll in Mage: The Awakening and ended up a Marauder.
You think that is average? Just because you will not have an 18 does not mean that's a middling array of numbers.
But this attitude is a perfect example why 4d6 drop the lowest is the way to go. With point-buy, it's about min-maxing stats to make sure that after race bump you have an 18. What this has done has turned players into thinking that the stat array above is average.
See, my experience has been exactly the opposite. With PB I've had characters without any 18s period and a fairly even stat spread; with dice rolls I have half the party with three 18s and a 20 and the rest with stats just barely above 10.
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I've been tossing around ideas for a good middle ground for a while.
So far the two I like the most are:
One array of stats is rolled (either by the DM or as a group). Everyone can lower one score and raise one score by 2 if they want to.
*or*
Everyone does their 4d6 drops the lowest x 6. Afterward compare the results and calculate the average according to point buy. Those that are below the average add points until they reach the average. Those that are above must lower their stats until they reach the average.
I hate rolling stats, if only because my dice are trolls. Ever since purchasing them, whenever I pick up 4d6 and roll them I always get middling numbers. My average set looks like this;
13, 14, 14, 13, 15, 14
I hate it. I refuse to roll with other people's dice because they aren't mine, I don't want my dice to find out I've been cheating on them. The last time that happened I botched a Willpower roll in Mage: The Awakening and ended up a Marauder.
You think that is average? Just because you will not have an 18 does not mean that's a middling array of numbers.
But this attitude is a perfect example why 4d6 drop the lowest is the way to go. With point-buy, it's about min-maxing stats to make sure that after race bump you have an 18. What this has done has turned players into thinking that the stat array above is average.
Those are pretty good stats. I would take that array over rolling any day.
I don't min-max either though. I think it creates for a weakness in the character waiting to be exploited.
By min-max I mean dropping unwanted scores as low as possible.
I usually use 4d6 drop lowest, 10 times, distribute as you like. Often ends up with pretty balanced characters in my experience.
Our current campaign, though, we decided to try out Point Buy, since we were having a new player join in.
I've played in a few "Iron Man" games before, and had a great time.
Iron Man = Roll your stats in order.
The last time I played that way, I ended up with a Fighter with the following stats:
STR: 9
DEX: 11
CON: 5
INT: 7
WIS: 6
CHA: 3And he was a dwarf, so he ended up with CON 7 and CHA 1.
He failed pretty much every single roll he tried, so the party focus became more about protecting him than caring about the actual plot.
It was great, tough fun.
If I was an adventurer and that guy wanted to join my group, I would give him a silver piece and tell him to go back to what ever village he was the idiot of.
I hate rolling stats, if only because my dice are trolls. Ever since purchasing them, whenever I pick up 4d6 and roll them I always get middling numbers. My average set looks like this;
13, 14, 14, 13, 15, 14
I hate it. I refuse to roll with other people's dice because they aren't mine, I don't want my dice to find out I've been cheating on them. The last time that happened I botched a Willpower roll in Mage: The Awakening and ended up a Marauder.
You think that is average? Just because you will not have an 18 does not mean that's a middling array of numbers.
But this attitude is a perfect example why 4d6 drop the lowest is the way to go. With point-buy, it's about min-maxing stats to make sure that after race bump you have an 18. What this has done has turned players into thinking that the stat array above is average.
That's not middling or average at all. That's a 28 point buy.
Digression: I remember that in one thread someone was claiming that point buy encourages dump stats, so for a lark I rolled up three sets of stats:13, 11, 14, 12, 7, 15
12, 12, 15, 13, 14, 5
11, 13, 14, 8, 15, 10Voila! Instant proof that rolling encourages dump stats. ;-)
It's all in the psychology and what you do with the system. Rolling a low number and tucking it away where it will do little harm isn't the same as deliberately choosing to have a low number so you can afford to have a higher number in your array. You are stuck with it in a stat rolling system, you choose to pursue it in a point-buy system. I know which player I generally have more sympathy for when the low stat comes around to bite him in play.
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Stubs, the term 'dump stat' has been around longer than the point buy system. A dump stat when rolling is a stat that you place a bad roll into. Back when it was 3d6 take them as they fall there were no dump stats since you could not choose to dump anything. But as soon as 'place them where you like' came along the dump stat was born.
- Gauss
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The problem with rolling stats, especially six-siders, is that not all dice are created equal.
Besides gaming dice, most gamers have extra d-6s, probably coming from numerous board games. Many d-6s that accompany board games are dimpled. Dimpled die are by definition loaded towards 5 and 6s because the dimples on MOST d-6s are the same size dimples. Therefore there is more weight on the 1's and 2's opposite the 5 and 6s. A real roll will be weighted to land on 5's and 6's more, resulting in higher rolls. I've had many players in my games who used this method years ago when I was a teen until I figured it out.
How I learned and how I love is roll 2 columns of 6 using 4d6, reroll 1's drop the lowest. Choose which column you like best for your stats, rearranging within that column as you see fit. I guess I got spoiled early on not having stats below 10. Our DM said this was because adventurers tend to be above average in stats, and stats below 10 were usually reserved for peasants and such.
13
15
14
11
17
16
14
15
14
13
15
10
In that case, I would have went for column 1. Now, I have recently gone for rolling just 1 column, but being able to mulligan a stat. By keeping the lowest number you rolled, you can then roll perhaps 2d6 plus 6 (reroll 1's) to replace your second lowest. So say you roll 8, 8, 12, 13, 15, and 17. You could keep one of the 8's, then pitch the other 8 for (let me roll it..) 2+6+6=14. Then you'd have 8, 14, 12, 13, 15, and 17. I'd play that character.
We almost switched to point-buy for one game when we caught the gamer at the opposite end of the table from the DM bumping his dice. After an 18, 14, 17, we caught him switching a d6 from a 2 to a 5. We let him keep the character, but watched him like a hawk for the rest of his rolls. 3rd session, his character drowns under a young dragon carcass while everyone else was arguing the best way to lift it off him.
It's all in the psychology and what you do with the system. Rolling a low number and tucking it away where it will do little harm isn't the same as deliberately choosing to have a low number so you can afford to have a higher number in your array. You are stuck with it in a stat rolling system, you choose to pursue it in a point-buy system. I know which player I generally have more sympathy for when the low stat comes around to bite him in play.
Now I'm wondering what would happen if someone joined your group and refused to tell you whether his stats came from rolling or point buy.
"Don't...know...whether...to...have...sympathy...or...not!"
<head asplode>
Rolling is actually faster for me, because allocating all the points for point-buy can take forever for indecisive players. Even if they do it in advance, you've got to check their math. And there's no reason people can't roll in advance -- I often allow it, on the assumption that anyone who would cheat on initial attribute scores is the type of sod who will be very unhappy in my home game anyway, and probably wouldn't join it in the first place.
That's not in any way an argument against point-buy; just a refutation of the claim that "rolling takes too long."
5d6, drop two lowest, in order, has its charms for closing the gap between MAD and SAD.
Rolling six ability scores literally takes five minutes. Max.and then there is the time element. At least for my group, we meet and play after work. With point buy we do not have to burn a session on rolling stats.
It is not the rolling that takes the time -- it is all the decisions that you cannot make until after you have rolled your stats. An unexpectedly high or low roll can easily drive a change of plans.
Has anyone ever tried combining random rolls with point buy? What you would do is roll 5 of your 6 stats, assign them randomly to ability scores, and then set the last ability score to whatever your leftover points would give you.
Rolling six ability scores literally takes five minutes. Max.and then there is the time element. At least for my group, we meet and play after work. With point buy we do not have to burn a session on rolling stats.
It is not the rolling that takes the time -- it is all the decisions that you cannot make until after you have rolled your stats. An unexpectedly high or low roll can easily drive a change of plans.
Has anyone ever tried combining random rolls with point buy? What you would do is roll 5 of your 6 stats, assign them randomly to ability scores, and then set the last ability score to whatever your leftover points would give you.
What happens when the 5 numbers that are rolled are all so high you have to drop that 6th stat so low that a sentient creature can't function with it?
What happens when the 5 numbers that are rolled are all so high you have to drop that 6th stat so low that a sentient creature can't function with it?Rolling six ability scores literally takes five minutes. Max.and then there is the time element. At least for my group, we meet and play after work. With point buy we do not have to burn a session on rolling stats.
It is not the rolling that takes the time -- it is all the decisions that you cannot make until after you have rolled your stats. An unexpectedly high or low roll can easily drive a change of plans.
Has anyone ever tried combining random rolls with point buy? What you would do is roll 5 of your 6 stats, assign them randomly to ability scores, and then set the last ability score to whatever your leftover points would give you.
Either reroll all stats, or set up the system so that each ability score roll is based on how many points you have left.
I used to love rolling. In fact, it took me a very long time to go over to point buy.
In 2nd Edition AD&D, stats were much less important. For most stats there was no difference between an 8 and a 14. Now, that's just not true, stats heavily influence the power of a character. A rolling method that once yielded characters close in power, (not equal, but close) now is the difference between a 10 and 40 point buy. That's huge! It's the equivalent of using the standard array, then rolling 1d4 for starting level.
I've tried other methods of rolling, but most of them just skewed scores higher. Instead of of 10 - 40 point characters, now we get 35-50 point characters, a lot closer together, but now we have the problem that I don't like to play 50 point characters. The game isn't as well balanced at that level, and, I feel, is less fun.
Finally, I decided that it wasn't randomly generating stats that I liked, it was rolling 4d6 6 times, because that was the way I generated stats for most of my life. That method just doesn't work as well anymore. :(
Rolling is actually faster for me, because allocating all the points for point-buy can take forever for indecisive players. Even if they do it in advance, you've got to check their math. And there's no reason people can't roll in advance -- I often allow it, on the assumption that anyone who would cheat on initial attribute scores is the type of sod who will be very unhappy in my home game anyway, and probably wouldn't join it in the first place.
Yeah, so you trust them not to cheat when you allow rolling, but you don't trust them when it comes to simple math? ;)
[...]now is the difference between a 10 and 40 point buy.
? More like 10 and 80.
Look at my stats (rolled by the GM), worth 70 points.
Yeah, so you trust them not to cheat when you allow rolling, but you don't trust them when it comes to simple math?
Two separate points, that were unfortunately juxtaposed!
1. If you trust them, they can do both things at home.2. If you don't trust them and make them roll in front of you, you'd also presumably not trust them not to fudge the math, so you'd need to check it.
In either case, the time needed is the same for both methods (zero for case 1; 5 minutes or less for case 2).
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Yeah, so you trust them not to cheat when you allow rolling, but you don't trust them when it comes to simple math? ;)
I don't trust anyone when it comes to simple math. We do it so often, you come to expect oversights. :)
I knew someone that accidentally read the box weight instead of the quantity when doing an inventory.
I prefer point buy as a player because I hate either dominating the arena where another character may want to play (for example a fighter with enough stats to toss a 15/17 into Charisma which is equal or higher than the sorcerer who rolled low. ) and, even more so, I don't want to be the sorcerer in that case either. Not everyone feels the same way about being weaker than others or stronger than others. I like to optimize, but in non-optimizing groups I'll optimize something like buffs, social or something other than damage so as to not dominate combat play (dominating the social arena is another thing though...).
I prefer point buy as a DM because my players are more even to one another. Additionally, I know what to expect. Many players will have a +4, 2 +2's, a +1 and a -1. Nearly every character will have at least one -1 or -2, possible two -1's. (using 20 point buy). The highest stat I have to be afraid of is the 20 Int wizard. Most other classes can't afford to drop the other stats low enough to afford that. You don't have to worry about a player with nothing below a 14 who can't fail any skills, saves, attacks, etc and another player who fails every skill, save and 20% more attacks than the other player. It makes the game more reliable, which I like. It is all opinion.
Rolling is actually faster for me, because allocating all the points for point-buy can take forever for indecisive players. Even if they do it in advance, you've got to check their math. And there's no reason people can't roll in advance -- I often allow it, on the assumption that anyone who would cheat on initial attribute scores is the type of sod who will be very unhappy in my home game anyway, and probably wouldn't join it in the first place.Yeah, so you trust them not to cheat when you allow rolling, but you don't trust them when it comes to simple math? ;)
[...]now is the difference between a 10 and 40 point buy.? More like 10 and 80.
Look at my stats (rolled by the GM), worth 70 points.
I looked over your stats when you mentioned it before. Your DM rolled an 18 (to which I gather you added +2 for a 20), two 17s, two 16s, and a "low" score of 15. The average of 4d6 drop the lowest is 12.24 iirc (the math is tortuous). Typical ranges are 10-15. It's better than 3d6 of course (with a 10.5 average) but it doesn't usually produce monster stats. That would take really lucky roles or loaded dice. Or a different generation method. I've generated literally thousands of NPCs using this method in the last three decades or so (it was Method I in the 1979 AD&D DMG and informally used before that) and a few PCs as well. Very few have measured up to your PC. Consider yourself lucky and don't look a gift horse, or GM, in the mouth :D
Me and my buddy Cyderak prefer rolling.
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What happens when the 5 numbers that are rolled are all so high you have to drop that 6th stat so low that a sentient creature can't function with it?Either reroll all stats, or set up the system so that each ability score roll is based on how many points you have left.
Oh, you mean like what I created on a lark back in the day? (linky)
Here it is again in case you don't want to follow that link:
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The basic premise is that each roll you make is dependent on how many points you have remaining. Whatever your roll is, removes (or adds) points from your remaining points. The odds on the roll is intended to include the entire range of stats in point buy (7 to 18, etc), up to how high your remaining points would allow.
Chart: What to Roll
17+ points (7-18): 1d12 + 6 (avg 12.5)
13-16 points (7-17): 2d6 + 5 (avg 12)
10-12 points (7-16): 3d4 + 4 (avg 11.5)
7-9 points (7-15): 4d3 + 3 (avg 11)
5-6 points (7-14): 1d8 + 6 (avg 10.5)
3-4 points (7-13): 2d4 + 5 (avg 10)
2 points (7-12): 1d6 + 6 (avg 9.5)
1 point (7-11): 2d3 + 5 (avg 9)
0 points (7-10): 1d4 + 6 (avg 8.5)
If you finish with points leftover, you may add them to whatever stats you rolled to increase them (point buy style).
The result is that you gain stats you didn't completely plan out (might not get that 18, etc), but it's entirely balanced next to normal point buy.
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Enjoy rolling those d3s! :)
*Edit*
Given Kirth Gersen's opinion on fairness, I'm curious on his opinion of this one.
I did it as a joke to someone's comment in that other thread, but I'm genuinely curious to see how it would play out in a group. I might "force" my next GM'd game to roll in this method (20 pb, because I feel it gives a better chance at a nice spread of stats for MAD classes).
2.0 made me hate rolling for stats, im just not lucky enough.
3.0-3.5 our group went exclusivley used point array. fair and easy.
in path finder we are also on point array.
we all like the idea of point buy, but as a dm with discalculia its pretty difficult to confirm.
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The more I read the more I'm becoming enamored with GM-given arrays. Actually used to play with a DM who did it that way and I still managed to make some very powerful characters. (My Gnome Beguiler rules you)
17 14 14 12 10 8 One great stat, two good stats, two average, and a dump, no min-maxing.
Or 15 14 13 12 10 8 if you are super worried about the party being OP'd.
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I've always been in love with rolling dice for stats. It is the thrill of the gamble -- the willingness to surrender to fate an influence upon the kind of character one may be playing... In fact, given the vast menu of options on the default character creation, I like that rolling trims one's options somewhat and could encourage one to play characters one might otherwise have never had the notion to try. Shouldn't gaming encourage some experimentation? (Tangential thought: If rolling reduces choices, isn't that good from a game management point of view with respect to indecisive players?)
Of course one can always refuse bad results -- nothing says one must play a game with them. Indeed, rolling stats actually encourages a measure of good communication between a GM and his/her players at the table. Part of the social aspect of gaming is the "contract of respect" between everyone present, and a good GM will offer options to unlucky players, because what's the point of participating in the game if one has a valid reason to feel miserable with what one has to work with? (Valid reason being something obvious to player and GM.)
Point-by speaks to me of something cold, mechanical and "always perfect". Which is odd because I also see the merit of BP in terms of mechanical fairness and for competitive personalities at the table. Min-maxers/Power-gamers love it, and I understand that because I've played like that with GURPS where optimizing the math was built into the game experience. But D&D/Pathfinder to me just begs a more organic approach that comes from rolling and seeing what fortune offers -- there's something "magical" about that! lol
Ultimately, I think PB is best for convention play and competitions between players who are strangers, while rolling fits a more relaxed game between friends in home games.
I can power game with rolled stats, provided they are decent. :)
Most extreme example of bad roll for stats I've ever experienced:
I once played in what was described as a 'hardcore' campaign.
"Roll 6 sets of 3d6 arrange in what ever order you want. What you get is what you got."
I had 15, 13, 11, 11, 10, 8
For that method I actually did fairly well.
We start playing and I eventually realize that everyone else has multiple abilities that are 16+ and nothing low. I said something about how that was hard to believe that everyone else rolled that well on a throw of the dice. They all got very mad at me, we never said you could only roll them once. Apparently they would sit there and roll 6 sets of 3d6 dozens of times until the got a set of ability scores they like and I was just supposed to know that.
And of course since all the players (except me) had really high stats he would bump the stats of all the NPC's and monsters by at least 2, often 4 or more on every stat. So I found myself trying to play with stats worse than the beggar children.
Typical example of roll for stats:
Usually seems that everyone's stats actually come out pretty close to a point buy build. Except for 1 guy. He either has god like stats and is bored because he outshines everyone and is not threatened. Or he has crap stats and is constantly struggling to survive and feels he is a loadstone holding the group back.
I have seen it work ok. If you have:
Mature players who don't get all upset about it.
Play a fast & short campaign (so your not stuck with a gimped character for a year and a half).
Have a GM who will say "No that is too far above or below everyone else, reroll it."
Very RP heavy / combat light campaign.
I haven't usually seen enough of those factors for it to work well, so I prefer point buy.