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Zolthux's Guide to the Gish


Advice

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Any particular reason sorcerer is better for barbarian than wizard or witch? While a Barbarian sorcerer is fairly thematic, it doesn't get much better than a barbarian witch for a war shaman.


My personal favourite Gish is Fighter 2 / Wizard 8 / EK 10, with that last level of Fighter taken allll the way at level 20. You still get level 9 spells (CL 19 with Magical Knack) and you do end up with a BAB of +16, for that extra attack in a round. Sure, it's one that's not likely to hit, but still.


Another possible combination is Gunslinger 1/Wizard (Spellslinger) 5/EK X.

It is only acceptable as a blaster, and many will argue that a straight spellslinger is better, what with the touch attack guns provide. HOWEVER, with EK you can use Deadly Aim on every shot, Rapid Fire on every full attack, and still probably hit every time.

Adding 1-5 to spell DC's because you have a magical gun is pretty sweet too, considering EK's suffer in the DC department.

Again, no doubt it is not as powerful as other EK builds (what with the 4! opposition schools) but it is a viable blaster.

EDIT: I only mention it because gunslinger is red, but in this case I would petition for Red/Green or Blue. Obviously gunslinger sucks for every other build ever.


First off I want to apologize that I have not been active for several weeks, as I have been busy with work and school (I'm going to a conference for 2 days at the end of the week, and also have a deadline approaching).

I am appreciative of people keeping this thread going with their suggestions, and I will continue writing my guide and answer questions when I get the free time to do so.

Cheliax

Looking forward to more of the guide!


Outsider player races (Aasimar, Tiefling, Ifrit, Sylph, Undine, Oread, Fetchling and Suli) are proficient in all martial weapons racially as part of outsider traits and can enter with just Wizard/Sorc levels.

Sczarni

deuxhero wrote:
Outsider player races (Aasimar, Tiefling, Ifrit, Sylph, Undine, Oread, Fetchling and Suli) are proficient in all martial weapons racially as part of outsider traits and can enter with just Wizard/Sorc levels.

Can I ask for a rules quote on this? I've never heard of this rule anywhere before.


It is indeed a rule, however the devs have made it clear that outsiders do NOT get said proficiencies if they take levels of a class. Such proficiencies are a benefit of racial hit dice.

Qadira RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, Contributor

A Brigand! wrote:
EDIT: I only mention it because gunslinger is red, but in this case I would petition for Red/Green or Blue. Obviously gunslinger sucks for every other build ever.

I disagree. It's quite decent when combined with diviner and foresight. Having a musket that deals 1d12x4 damage and being able to check if you are going to crit before you act is a great combo.

Qadira RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, Contributor

It's worth mentioning that your guide seems to ignore ranged bow/ caster gun/ caster type characters entirely. Also, the unarmed fighter archetype is a great way to pick up Kirin Style and later Kirin strike which lets you add twice your INT bonus to attacks once per round.

Also, if you use shape shifting spells for melee, having IUS is handy because you are going to invest in an amulet of mighty fists regardless.

Which reminds me... you should probably talk about shape shifting, Monstrous Physique has some pretty neat caster friendly shapes which snag you some nice things like flight plus a bunch of natural attacks. Gargoyle... is accessible with a third level spell. Fly 30, Strength bonus, and 4 primary natural attacks.


It's mentioned at one point it is focusing on the melee gish.

If it is expanded, (Seeker) Empyreal Sorcerer/Zen Archer Monk/Arcane Archer is a nice one. SAD everywhere.


Respect the effort, 2 quick comments:

Undead bloodline is made awesome by ablative barrier. Since It converts 5 points of damage to non-lethal damage, your 3rd level bloodline ability turns it into DR5/-. Furthermore, since NLD is not hit-point damage, IIRC RAW DR for NLD and DR for LD operate independantly. Short version: the DR5/- will stack with your best OTHER form of DR.

Divine hunter is listed as orange, but could probably be worth a green if you intend to never wear heavy armor (in which case it is a free feat, essentially, if you are only taking a 2-level dip). Moreover, precise shot is useful for rays/ranged touch attacks too. All in all, a situationally useful feat for free seems like a pretty decent deal.

Keep up the good work, looking forward to seeing the guide develop.

Andoran

I see you mention that fighter and EK levels stack for feat requirements, but you don't mention that taking the 2nd level of fighter and 10 levels of EK opens up both Greater Weapon Specialization along with Penetrating Strike. I would suggest taking the second level of fighter after all levels of EK since the real bonus of taking the 2nd level is the extra feats and you should be able to get both at 17th level (if you take Wizard5/Fighter1/EK10/Fighter1) without losing the extra CL until as late as possible. This also gets you up to a 16 BaB at 20th level netting you a 4th attack on your full attack actions while still getting 9th level spells.


I just got back to my hotel after spending a fun day at a conference (Well, for for me, it was a Transportation Engineering conference...how fun can it be talking about traffic lights really? lol), so I'm going to address some comments:

Quote:

I don't see why fighter should be better than ranger.

1 level gives you one feat instead of a +2 to hit/damage (guide: just this one it's worth a feat) 1/day till the BBEG dies, 4 skill points (1 level), +2 to reflex (it's worth a feat in itself, even though not one I would take), nice class skill selection (+3 to perception is golden, +3 to stealth can be good to for dex-based EKs).
Another level just means that you are forced to take your feat from a smaller selection (but surely you can find one you would take anyway) and net you +4 skill points, +1 to reflex.

Also, I think that, given the importance of saving throws in the game, the sorcadin should really be blue (I guess your reasoning is that your cha is not going to be sky-high, but it will still be high enough since you want to cast spells: that is worth 2 feats for me, and smite 1/day is good too).

Addressing the ranger thing: I believe I mentioned that both the Ranger Archetype is awesome, and that its +2 to reflex is its real advantage already. What I like about Ranger 2 is that you can get a free (limited) feat without having to meet the prereqs. I do concede that Ranger having perception as a class skill is, indeed, golden. Perception is the most important skill in the game after all.

However, I believe that this wouldn't be much of a guide if it didn't have a way to rank options. I think one of the biggest challenges for this guide is deciding what's preferable over what.

As I have it right now, looking strictly at generic vanilla builds (That is, without taking specific archetypes/builds into account) The "Ranking" (and I use that term loosely) is Fighter > Barbarian > Ranger > Paladin.

Fighter is at the top as it gets a feat each level for the first 2 levels (And feats are precious), plus the levels stack with EK for feats (Which is just good synergy and thus a solid choice)

Barbarian follows simply because it's instantly gratifying. Just as ranger can get a +2 to ATK/Damage and perception as a class skill, Barbarian gets that same boost in the form of Rage, and also gets perception. At level 2 the barbarian can get an extra attack in the form of Animal Fury/Lesser Fiend Totem

Ranger is here because vanilla ranger isn't as great as vanilla fighter or barbarian

Paladin is last because it only meshes with sorcerer.

I would also like to remind you that Orange does not mean "bad" in this case, it means "approach with an open mind". I think that if you are using these archetypes/builds to optimize the ranger part, you're being open minded when it comes to what you can use.

However, I will switch Ranger to green and Paladin to Orange. It's still a solid choice.

Quote:

What I'm saying is that that 1 level of martial is better spent in ranger than in figher: my point is that it's like having a level of fighter and spending that feat get one that gives you +2 ref, +4 skill points, +2 to hit/damage against 1 opponend 1/day until he dies and a lot of class skills. It's the kind of feat I'd take with my eye closed.

Yes, there are a lot of abilities that will not increase as you level, but who cares? Try to think like those abilities were never there in the first place, and compare what ranger gets you and what would fighter get you. It's still a very, very convenient trade off.

I hope my earlier wall of text addressed this also.

Quote:

Nice guide, though I skimmed the Sorcerer bloodline and Witch patron sections.

The only thing wrong that I noticed was that you said you can get a rod of Still Spell. There are no rods of that feat. I assume it's because you must move to use the rod, hence defeating the purpose. :-)

Thanks! I assumed it would exist. I mean, you can hold the rod in one hand and the weapon in the other and use it. I should delete that then.

Quote:
The rod isn't listed in the CRB, APG, or other listings, however, if your GM allows it, it can exist of course. However, not PFS legal.

Well, given that pretty much every EK build relies on Magical Knack, (which isn't PFS legal either) that's a moot point ;D

Quote:

These reasons is why Gendarme cavalier is the best dip.

4 skills
Order
Mount
Free feat (Power Attack is a no brainer)
Challenge
All weapons and armor

How about this: If (When) I finish Feats and spells, I will cover other classes.

Quote:
Any particular reason sorcerer is better for barbarian than wizard or witch? While a Barbarian sorcerer is fairly thematic, it doesn't get much better than a barbarian witch for a war shaman.

BARBARIAN CARES NOT FOR INTELLIGENCE! CHARISMA TO SCARE SQUISHIES. STRENGTH TO TEAR THEM LIMB FROM LIMB, AND CONSTITUTION TO LAUGH AT PUNY ATTEMPTS TO HURT BARBARIAN.

But seriously, we got barbarian for raw strength. Barbarian 1/Draconic Sorcerer 4/Draconic Disciple 4/Sorcerer 1/EK 10 is scary. Powers of a level 13 sorcerer (With cloak), casting as a level 17 sorcerer, 16 BAB, +4 bonus to strength plus rage...That's just sheer power.

Quote:

+

My personal favourite Gish is Fighter 2 / Wizard 8 / EK 10, with that last level of Fighter taken allll the way at level 20. You still get level 9 spells (CL 19 with Magical Knack) and you do end up with a BAB of +16, for that extra attack in a round. Sure, it's one that's not likely to hit, but still.

When I get to feats, I will probably touch up on spell perfection: True Strike and Quicken Spell. Spend a lv1 spell and a swift action for a +20 to hit? Yes! Also, if you wanna be *That* Guy, you can argue that Magical Lineage + Perfect Quickened True Strike = level 0 spell slot. (I don't condone it, but speak to GM first)

That way your BAB will be 16/11/6/1+20 (Remember: True Strike is verbal only, so you can do it wearing armor or whatever)

Quote:

Another possible combination is Gunslinger 1/Wizard (Spellslinger) 5/EK X.

It is only acceptable as a blaster, and many will argue that a straight spellslinger is better, what with the touch attack guns provide. HOWEVER, with EK you can use Deadly Aim on every shot, Rapid Fire on every full attack, and still probably hit every time.

Adding 1-5 to spell DC's because you have a magical gun is pretty sweet too, considering EK's suffer in the DC department.

Again, no doubt it is not as powerful as other EK builds (what with the 4! opposition schools) but it is a viable blaster.

EDIT: I only mention it because gunslinger is red, but in this case I would petition for Red/Green or Blue. Obviously gunslinger sucks for every other build ever.

I think I mentioned already that I'm going for the melee gish build...I feel it's outside of the scope of what I wanted to make here.

Quote:

It's worth mentioning that your guide seems to ignore ranged bow/ caster gun/ caster type characters entirely. Also, the unarmed fighter archetype is a great way to pick up Kirin Style and later Kirin strike which lets you add twice your INT bonus to attacks once per round.

Also, if you use shape shifting spells for melee, having IUS is handy because you are going to invest in an amulet of mighty fists regardless.

Which reminds me... you should probably talk about shape shifting, Monstrous Physique has some pretty neat caster friendly shapes which snag you some nice things like flight plus a bunch of natural attacks. Gargoyle... is accessible with a third level spell. Fly 30, Strength bonus, and 4 primary natural attacks.

Again, trying to focus on melee builds. Ranged gishes get stupid around the time they can Manyshot/Rapid shot with giant bonuses...Of course, if that's your thing, This might be more up your alley

I've looked at unarmed fighter, but I'm not sure if it's proficient with martial weapons...I mean, it's unarmed. I could be wrong of course.

Spells will be discussed later.

Quote:


If it is expanded, (Seeker) Empyreal Sorcerer/Zen Archer Monk/Arcane Archer is a nice one. SAD everywhere.

I'm not familiar with Seeker. But I have heard about Empyrial/Monk...I think I mentioned comboing with Sohei

Quote:

Undead bloodline is made awesome by ablative barrier. Since It converts 5 points of damage to non-lethal damage, your 3rd level bloodline ability turns it into DR5/-. Furthermore, since NLD is not hit-point damage, IIRC RAW DR for NLD and DR for LD operate independantly. Short version: the DR5/- will stack with your best OTHER form of DR.

Divine hunter is listed as orange, but could probably be worth a green if you intend to never wear heavy armor (in which case it is a free feat, essentially, if you are only taking a 2-level dip). Moreover, precise shot is useful for rays/ranged touch attacks too. All in all, a situationally useful feat for free seems like a pretty decent deal.

Keep up the good work, looking forward to seeing the guide develop.

*looks at Ablative Barrier* NOW We're talking. If i used it at my table, i'd get called munchkin (Then again, I got called that already for running a verdant Sorcadin with Toppling Magic Missiles)

Refer to what I said regarding Divine Archer. I do like the fact you can get precise shot without the feat tax of PBS, but if you are in melee range and are blasting rays, something has gone wrong. Also, you are essentially 3/4 BAB with some dex shooting touch attacks. Come on!

Quote:
I see you mention that fighter and EK levels stack for feat requirements, but you don't mention that taking the 2nd level of fighter and 10 levels of EK opens up both Greater Weapon Specialization along with Penetrating Strike. I would suggest taking the second level of fighter after all levels of EK since the real bonus of taking the 2nd level is the extra feats and you should be able to get both at 17th level (if you take Wizard5/Fighter1/EK10/Fighter1) without losing the extra CL until as late as possible. This also gets you up to a 16 BaB at 20th level netting you a 4th attack on your full attack actions while still getting 9th level spells.

Good idea. I will mention the level it opens in the Fighter section, feats will be touched eventually, and those feats will be mentioned.

I hope this cleared some concerns, and as always, thanks for your input


for those at home keeping tabs on my real life (so, nobody), I finally graduated and started a full time job. Luckily, this means no more homework so I can use at-home time to continue writing :D

I started feats last night and such!


Just wanted to make a quick post, saying that I'm looking forward to seeing your complete guide. My next character will most likely be an EK and I really appreciate your insight.

Oh, and congrats to the graduation and the job! :)

Andoran

Are you planning on, or perhaps even just considering, adding an extra section on building for rays/ranged weapons?

I would personally be interested in this as one of my favorite options for wizard is the ray focused caster (specifically scorching ray). It may not be optimal, but it has always been a fun build for me.

Andoran

Ranger Section wrote:
You can take a second level in ranger and get a combat style feat. However, even with the new choices in the APG, there isn't anything that truly jumps out.

I am going to disagree. These may not be worth another hit to caster level and spell progression, but are worth mentioning, imo.

Archery style and Crossbow style allow access to Precise Shot which gives you one of the mandatory feats for ranged combat. This may not seem huge, but what if I just killed my target and the cleric is engaged with another mook 30 feet away. All I have left is a swift action this round and I decide to throw a quickened <insert ray spell here>. Without Precise Shot, I am eating a -4 on the attack roll. It is situational for a melee build, but useful. Eventually, you can even get Point Blank Master with your ray spells and start adding rays into your full attacks.

Natural Weapons style allows access to Aspect of the Beast. Two claw attacks or one additional attack while using a manufactured weapon. Add in Half-Orc racial trait Toothy and we have 3 natural attacks or two additional while using a manufactured weapon. These weapons can be wielded in the same round as you cast a spell, do not suffer the negative attack modifier for iterative attacks. You could easily end up with 3 attacks at full BAB by level 2. The real downside here is that "enchanting" your weapons is quite expensive (either permanency or Amulet of Mighty Fists or just cast a lot of greater magic fang).


Zolthux wrote:

I think I mentioned already that I'm going for the melee gish build...I feel it's outside of the scope of what I wanted to make here.

Again, trying to focus on melee builds. Ranged gishes get stupid around the time they can Manyshot/Rapid shot with giant bonuses...Of course, if that's your thing, This might be more up your alley

Considering these statements I would change the Title of your Guide then to possibly a Guide to the EK. If you are only considering it that is.

There are a ton of other classes/combo's that fall under "Gish"

Magus - Gish in a box
Arcane Archer - Archer Gish
Druid - Can be build as a Gish
Wizard Spellslinger/Gunslinger is a Wizard gun gish.
Empyreal Sorcerer/Zen Archer Monk/Arcane Archer gishes that use unarmed and archery
Summoners can be built as a Gish
Synthesis is basically a Gish in a box
Arcane Trixter is a Rogue gish
Dragon Disciple makes a wonderful Gish

If you are concentrating on just EK then the guide title should reflect that. Other then that. I like the guide so far.


Nipin wrote:

Are you planning on, or perhaps even just considering, adding an extra section on building for rays/ranged weapons?

I would personally be interested in this as one of my favorite options for wizard is the ray focused caster (specifically scorching ray). It may not be optimal, but it has always been a fun build for me.

Given that a lot of people like to use dervish dance, and given that DEX is such an important stat, I should.

I've used ray builds before when making arcane tricksters. It's fun to hit when rolling 2's :D

I like your suggestion of using quickened scorching rays as part of the attack action, though I don't know if I'd want to take weapon focus, weapon specialization and point blank master. I mean, why not just attack, 5-foot step, quickened Scorching Ray?

don't get me wrong, I see the benefit. You're dishing out an extra 12d6 damage a turn. However, if I were to do that I'd rather use Intensified Shocking Grasp. Maybe throw in Spell Perfection (Already having Intensified and Quicken Spell, meeting 2 of the 3 prerequisite feats) and burn a level 2 spell slow to deal 10d6 as part of my attack action.

Going back to saving your party member from a mook: You're right, that's the kind of thing that would straight up save a party member. But you gotta remember that a touch attack at 3/4 BAB has a pretty high hitchance. Especially if you are dex-based.

As for the caster level thing: I think that extra caster level is very precious. As I said before, losing 3 caster levels should be your limit, and would need a LOT of return (Divine Grace, opening up Rage Powers maybe) to justify it.

Final Thought: Ray builds I think are better suited to arcane trickster builds. You have a lower BAB but you can catch enemies' flatfooted touch AC's. Though if you have a familiar, you can give it a wand of <whatever> ray and take advantage of its 3/4 BAB and probably high dex.

@Dragon: You're correct, I need to change that.

And one more thing: I'm going to bump up Ranger from Orange. Getting Perception and stealth and class skills, 6 skill ranks, and +2 to Reflex is pretty friggin awesome. Also, Freebooter archetype for a move action +1 to attack and damage with no duration.


Reading the description of the evocation-school for the wizard, it looks like you mix something up wit the admixture sub-school. Maybe I'm jut reading it wrong but your guide sounds like you lose intense spell and keep force missile. I'm pretty sure it's the other way round.


fixed it

Grand Lodge

Love the work...great read so far.


Hey guys,

So I had a thought last night, I was thinking incorporating in my guide if people think it's a good enough idea.

Regarding Armor vs casting, a Klar is like a fancy spiked shield, except that the shield part is treated as a light shield and the weapon part is a one handed melee weapon (not light Source).

Therefore, it is possible to use it as both a weapon and shield with the feat Improved shield bash (you hit someone with it, and don't lost the AC bonus)

As a weapon, it's a 1d6 X2 one handed martial weapon
As a shield, it's a +1 to AC with 5% ASF

Now, the (flavor) description of the klar says

Traditionally a Shoanti blade bound to the skull of a horned spirestalker (a breed of Storval Plateau giant gecko), in recent years the armorers of southern Varisia have started crafting these bladed shields from iron.

meaning that it is possible to make the shield part from metal.

So how about getting a mithril Kral, getting improved shield slam, and enhancing the shield part for more AC, while supplementing the armor slot with mage armor (and later on, bracers)

For 26k, you can get yourself a +5 Mithril Kral, which grants an AC bonuc of +6 and no ASF chance. Moreover, combined with Mage armor, this is a nice +10 boost to AC. Or spend another 25k on a +5 Haramaki for an AC bonus of +12

The downside is that you have a weapon that hits only for 1d6, and will crit only 5% of the time. On the other hand, now you have an actual AC value, and don't need to waste your swift action to cast spells.

Would this work? thoughts anyone?


Not sure how this would work or not. To be honest, I think it would only lead to a lot of pointless rules discussion. Maybe mention it in the guide under equipment as a questionable option and let each GM sort it out.

Personally, I don't think it's woth the hassle. If you needa shield bonus, just cast shield.

Grand Lodge

Why go through all that for 0% ASF?!?

+5 mithril light shield is +6 ac, 0% ASF
+5 darkleaf leather armor is +7 AC 0% ASF
+5 defending weapon enchantment on the shield is another +5
Dex +5 at least
Defelection +5
Natural armor +5

43 AC ain't too bad...before buffs.

Grab shield mastery and you can even dump all the weapon enhancement to defend and you still have the shield enhancement that will kick in when you shield bash. As a bonus, this feat tree incluedes shield slam. If you go universalist, the basic ability lets you lauch a melee weapon and attack. You shield is a melee weapon. Melee shield attacks are shield bashes...shield bash while having shield slam lets you bullrush what you hit. I love doing capt. america stunts :P .


wouldnt darkleaft leather armor have -5% asf? the way i understood it, it lowers the asf by 10% to a min of 5.

the reason i suggested focusing on the shield is that it can be used as a weapon as well, allowin usage of a shield and weapon, while still freeing the spellcasting hand.

I guess a celestial shield solves these issues.

Grand Lodge

Grr...missed the min 5%...so I guess silken armor or haramaki is the way to go then.

You don't need to do all that to leave a hand free. Switch sword to shield hand as a free, cast, switch back as a free and be on your marry way. Remember that if this does not work, clerics and druids are also a kinda screwed as well...BUT the paladin who was the standard sword and shield type would basically end up being spell-less...which is why when I brought up this issue (and the lack of the somatic weaponry feat...which fixes this issue and then some as you can cast with even heavy shields that paladins and clerics would most likely use), JJ basically said it's a free to switch things around...basically hands are free for spell casting with a light shield.


Any more Feats coming our way?


I second the desire to include ranged builds. Though the OP can disagree, i understand. This might need another guide . . .


I note that you seem to be neglecting one "melee class" build option—the Magus 1/Wizard 5 method of entering EK (with all EK levels then enhancing wizard casting).

The one magus level gets you:

* Your necessary all-martial weapon proficiency.
* The ability to Spell Combat anything on the magus spell list (does not say you have to cast it from a magus slot, so you can spell combat using magus list spells in your wizard spell slots).
* 3 additional cantrip slots and 1+bonus 1st level slots (though always at CL 1)
* 3+Int Mod additional 1st-level spells known (Magus spellbook class feature)
* 1+Int Mod point Arcane Pool (not great, but the +1 you can do stacks with a magic weapon up to +5)
* +2 in both Fort and Will saves
* UMD as a class skill

That leaves you inferior at raw melee than a fighter level and combat feat, yes, but cast-and-full-attack in the same action is a powerful option for the melee EK.

Grand Lodge

see wrote:


* The ability to Spell Combat anything on the magus spell list (does not say you have to cast it from a magus slot, so you can spell combat using magus list spells in your wizard spell slots).

I don't think this works the way you seem to think it works. The ability says you can cast a spell from the magus spell list...but if your using your wizard class to cast shocking grasp, I don't think it's a spell from the magus spell list so much as it is a spell from the wizard spell list. There is even an arcana that specifically does what you are describing so yeah, I doubt this is legal...and I would be hard pressed I would think to find a GM that would allow this. I certainly would rule against this.


I was wondering if anyone had a good list of melee focused spells form the wizard spell list?

I have a dex based TWF/Dimensional Agility EK build I have been working on and I really need all the bonus to damage and hit I can get.

Thanks,
Hexen

Grand Lodge

Well, twilight knife will always give you flank.

Tactical acumen will give you a bonus to hit and AC when the source is from positioning (like say flank).

Heroism and greater heroism will give you +2/+4 morale to hit.

Moment of greatness will let you use the spell to double the morale bonus for one roll.

Then there is debuffs.

A rimed elemental aura (cold) will fatigue anyone who fails the save and entangle with no save if they take the cold damage...every round they are near you.

And then there is the big middle finger combo of sleet storm (no save blind effect that is pretty hard to get past) + echolocation (so YOU can see just fine in the sleet storm).


Cold Napalm wrote:
I don't think this works the way you seem to think it works. The ability says you can cast a spell from the magus spell list...but if your using your wizard class to cast shocking grasp, I don't think it's a spell from the magus spell list so much as it is a spell from the wizard spell list.

Then why was the wordy expression "from the magus spell list" used? If it was supposed to be limited to just spells prepared as a magus, it could just use the less wordy "magus spell", like it does in the parts of the class rules under the headings "Weapon and Armor Proficiency", "Spell Recall (Su)", "Medium Armor (Ex)", and "Heavy Armor (Ex)".

Cold Napalm wrote:
There is even an arcana that specifically does what you are describing

No, Broad Study lets you use spells from other class lists, which is substantially, er, broader, and more powerful, than using only spells from the magus class list (however you managed to prepare them).

I mean, yes, I can see how some GMs might rule the other way, but this one thinks it's fairly clear that if you've got a castable spell that's on the magus spell list, it doesn't matter what class you're casting it with.

Grand Lodge

see wrote:


I mean, yes, I can see how some GMs might rule the other way, but this one thinks it's fairly clear that if you've got a castable spell that's on the magus spell list, it doesn't matter what class you're casting it with.

By fairly clear, you mean not at all clear? Because a quick search on the topic brings up quite a bit of contested posts. And honestly, when something is hotly contested, it isn't considered a given...and as such does not really belong in a general guide to a class in all honesty. Hey if you DM lets you do it...that's awesome. However, considering that there seems to be a rather big chuck that will say no (think about it...thread that is this old and nobody before you didn't come up with this? Think that maybe the way you think it works isn't as common as you think it is?) .


Even assuming Jason Buhlman stupidly used a long and literally wrong phrase in some parts of the magus class description in place of a shorter phrasing well-established to mean what you contend he meant, taking a level in magus is the only way not discussed by the guide as the dip to get the martial weapon proficiency to get into EK. It should be listed as one of the possibilities, if only in passing with the gunslinger and cavalier lines.


Cold Napalm wrote:

Well, twilight knife will always give you flank.

Tactical acumen will give you a bonus to hit and AC when the source is from positioning (like say flank).

Heroism and greater heroism will give you +2/+4 morale to hit.

Moment of greatness will let you use the spell to double the morale bonus for one roll.

Then there is debuffs.

A rimed elemental aura (cold) will fatigue anyone who fails the save and entangle with no save if they take the cold damage...every round they are near you.

And then there is the big middle finger combo of sleet storm (no save blind effect that is pretty hard to get past) + echolocation (so YOU can see just fine in the sleet storm).

Interesting


Some useful addition for Gishes: the Caster's Tattoo from Inner Sea Magic allow (swift action, 1/day) to both Silent and Still cast a spell.

Tattoo magic in general is useful for a gish: False Focus with a tattoed holy symbol (notably, worth exactly 100Gp) is arguably better than Eschew material.
Also, even if it does involve some GM judgement, it's more or less arguable that it should be possible to tattoo with the appropriate feat any metamagic rod, for always available metamagics like Quicken and Intensify.


Don't forget the scarred witch doctor


My fav gish is fighter 1/wizard 5/AA 4/EK 10. Good BAB and 9th level spells.

Taldor

I don't know if this has been suggested yet, but I was interested in a ranged gish build.

Does this seem viable; Gunslinger 1/Spellslinger 5/Eldritch Knight X


Sorry for the severe necropost on this one, but I couldn't find the rules on it and this is a discussion thread for a guide and I imagine it will be posted in again in the future anyway.

I know you've already said why you're not doing anything with the Gunslinger, it is a Wisdom based class to be fit into an already MAD prestige class and that you're looking at melee based gishes and not ranged. However, I think if you just alter what you're looking to get out of the Gunslinger, it becomes very attractive.

The Gunslinger DOES possess proficiency with all Simple and Martial weapons, the only requirement the martial class actually needs to give for you to qualify for Eldritch Knight.

Now, when you compare it to the Fighter, which seems to currently be the gold standard for the melee 5-10% of the build, you get the same d10 hit die, a much better skill selection with more skill points to boot, +2 Reflex along with the +2 Fortitude you would normally get, firearm proficiency, a gun, the gunsmithing feat, and the grit features. You do lose out on the armor proficiencies though.

The Grit features is where your contention about being a Wisdom based class lays. For this, I say just treat grit as a small secondary ability. Likely, you'll want a +1 in your Wisdom to start with anyway, as Perception is that good. And while a Headband of Mental Prowess(Int/Wis) is roughly 3x more expensive than an equal Headband of Vast Intelligence, you do get an extra +1/2/3 to your Wisdom Modifier for this. All in all, this gives you up to 4 Grit Points to use at the start of a day.

Then we drop down to your other contention, you're not offering advice on a ranged Gish. To that I say, what melee Gish isn't going to have a decent bow on him? Yeah, you've got your spells and all that, but a bow is always a useful weapon to have. So why not just replace that complimentary bow of yours with a complimentary gun? A Gunslinger, despite its name, doesn't require the use of a gun, whatsoever.

I specifically liked the Gun Tank archetype. You gain back your armor and shield proficiencies, for anyone who likes their Celestial Full Plate, and you replace the relatively useless deed that lets you take a 5-foot step at the cost of being the subject of AoOs and gives you Light Fortification for a grit point.

So, all in all, if you treat the Gunslinger as a melee class instead of the ranged class it was meant to be, I think it looks pretty attractive.

Taldor

Double-necro.

I'd lik to add to Suichimo's post by saying that you could also use the Mysterious Stranger archtype for Gunslinger to run it off of Charisma instead of Wisdom. Then you'd be using the same primary stat as a Sorcerer or Bard and solve the MAD issue entirely.


Salazzar Slaan wrote:

Double-necro.

I'd lik to add to Suichimo's post by saying that you could also use the Mysterious Stranger archtype for Gunslinger to run it off of Charisma instead of Wisdom. Then you'd be using the same primary stat as a Sorcerer or Bard and solve the MAD issue entirely.

or even run empyreal sorcerer


With the errata stating SLAs can stand in for PrC prereqs (like the one for EK), do you plan to update this guide with a section devoted to races/classes that can get around the five levels of caster class requirement?

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