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I am confused about reloading at the last convention where I ran a player with a gunslinger. Without stopping the table to review a load of things, I let things slide. I am reading the rules, and wondering if I missed a FAQ
What is the legal reload time for a one handed, and two handed firearm, and a double hackbut. Is it really a free action with rapid shot? It seems odd that someone is claiming that musket master applied a free action reload for other that weapons with musket in the name.
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1st: You're in the wrong forums, I believe you're hunting for the rules forums.
2nd: From the Paizo.com/PRD
Loading a Firearm: You need at least one hand free to load one-handed and two-handed firearms. In the case of two-handed firearms, you hold the weapon in one hand and load it with the other—you only need to hold it in two hands to aim and shoot the firearm. Loading siege firearms requires both hands, and one hand usually manipulates a large ramrod (which can be wielded as a club in combat).
The Rapid Reload feat reduces the time required to load one-handed and two-handed firearms, but this feat does not reduce the time it takes to load siege firearms.
Loading any firearm provokes attacks of opportunity.
Other rules for loading a firearm depend on whether the firearm is an early firearm or an advanced firearm.
Early Firearms: Early firearms are muzzle-loaded, requiring bullets or pellets and black powder to be rammed down the muzzle. If an early firearm has multiple barrels, each barrel must be loaded separately. It is a standard action to load each barrel of a one-handed early firearm and a full-round action to load each barrel of a two-handed early firearm. It takes three full-round actions by one person to load a siege firearm. This can be reduced to two full-round actions if more than one person is loading the cannon.
3rd: No, Rapid shot does not increase your reload rate. Rapid shot does, or alchemical paper shots. I would also as a GM make sure the player notates his replaced ammo costs, as this is a frequently forgotten factor of gunslingers by players when shots are VERY expensive.
4th: From Musket Master Archetype in the Paizo/PRD
Fast Musket (Ex): At 3rd level, as long as the musket master has 1 grit point, she can reload any two-handed firearm as if it were a one-handed firearm. This deed replaces the utility shot deed.
Rapid Reloader: At 1st level, a musket master gains Rapid Reload (muskets) as a bonus feat.
5th: So, here is the reload flow.
Start: Full Round
Fast Musket @ 3rd: Standard (Spend a grit)
Rapid Reload @ 1st: Move
Alchemical Paper shot: Free (Note: their failure chance goes up on the die)
Rapid Shot: Shoot as many times per base attack bonus rules.
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No restrictions for pfs that pertain to your specific questions, no.
So if the character was 6th+ level yeah he could get three shots off with rapid shot, rapid relaod, fast reload, and alchemical cartridges.
And yeah, double hackbut is technically legal to do that. Sad and cheesy, but legal. Just remember for future reference, it still takes a full round action to set up the gun's carriage.
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I thought there was a PFS specific restriction.what particular part do you think there would be a PFS restriction?
I think I was confused. Hence the post.
A double Hackbutt has two barrels though? You are firing each barrel three times? One barrels shot is 2d12?
It says under Rapid Reload:
"If you have selected this feat for a hand crossbow or light crossbow, you may fire that weapon as many times in a full-attack action as you could attack if you were using a bow."
A two handed firearm is not a crossbow.
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It says under Rapid Reload:
"If you have selected this feat for a hand crossbow or light crossbow, you may fire that weapon as many times in a full-attack action as you could attack if you were using a bow."A two handed firearm is not a crossbow.
The wording for Rapid Reload was adjusted in ultimate combat to take in Firearms.
This is how it would work.
First they need to set up the Double Hackbut which is a full round action
"This double-length rifle uses a pair of trunnions to mount its barrel into a swiveling mechanism fastened to a lightweight, two-wheeled carriage. It takes a full-round action to set up the carriage.
There is nothing to adjust that to make it quicker, though they can decide to fire it while it is not mounted
"Unlike other two-handed firearms, you must fire the double hackbut while it is mounted, or else firing it imparts a –4 penalty on attack rolls and the recoil knocks the wielder prone."
Though after the first shot they would be knocked on their ass
So assuming they decided to take the time to set up the carriage, to load the weapon would be a Full Round action for each barrel, most Gunslingers have the weapon preload for the first attack.
Rapid Reload Reduces that to a Standard action per barrel.
Alchemical Cartridge would reduce that to a Move action per Barrel
3rd Level Musket Master ability Fast Musket reduces that to a free action per barrel.
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Also, you can't fire both barrels with the same action. Each is their own action. If you could have, it'd call it out like in the double musket, but the Double Hack doesn't mention this, so it takes a separate attack for each barrel.
This musket has two parallel
barrels; each barrel can be shot independently as a separate
action, or both can be fired at once as the same attack. If both
barrels are fired at once, they must both target the same
creature or object, and the gun becomes wildly inaccurate,
taking a –4 penalty on each shot. Each barrel of a doublebarreled
musket uses either a bullet and a single dose of
black powder or an alchemical cartridge as ammunition.
The Double Hackbut isn't a double barreled weapon unless customized. The "Double" part of the name refers to the double length of the barrel.
3rd Level Musket Master ability Fast Musket reduces that to a free action per barrel.
Wrong. It's reduced to a swift action.
A two handed firearm cannot be reloaded as a free action by any means, but you can reduce the actions to as quick as a swift.
Also, there is no such thing as a two barreled double hackbut.
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Wrong. It's reduced to a swift action.A two handed firearm cannot be reloaded as a free action by any means, but you can reduce the actions to as quick as a swift.
Also, there is no such thing as a two barreled double hackbut.
I confused the the capacity of 2 with 2 barrels.
But it is a free action not a Swift.
Fast Musket makes it load as a one handed firearm
At 3rd level, as long as the musket master has 1 grit point, she can reload any two-handed firearm as if it were a one-handed firearm.
One-handed weapons take a standard action to load
It is a standard action to load each barrel of a one-handed early firearm
Rapid Reload reduces this to a Move action
The time required for you to reload your chosen type of weapon is reduced to a free action (for a hand or light crossbow), a move action (for heavy crossbow or one-handed firearm).
Alchemical Cartridges reduces it to a free action
Alchemical cartridges make loading a firearm easier, reducing the time to load a firearm by one step (a full-round action becomes a standard action, a standard action becomes a move action, and a move action becomes a free action)
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Pardon me for being dense. I read the rules, and they didn't speak to me as clearly as I thought. I also read the sources and failed my "reading comprehension" roll. Thanks for the perspective.
The capacity of two implied two rounds, does that mean a double load instead, two charges and one bullet?
I put one in the gunslinger on Herolab, and indeed it comes out as three attacks at 2d12 in one round. Even with a full round setup, you shoot, roll the cart 5 feet, and shoot again. Its like a belt fed automatic weapon.
It sounds RIPE for an errata.
I see Two things as a disadvantage to that gun, though given the initial issue is a PFS play thing i dont know how applicable this would be in general.
The first is the Carriage screams sunder me :) and the Second bit is since the carriage itself likely doesnt come with rubber bouncu wheels moving it about on anything resembling rough terrain or stairs would i assume be difficult.
This is all stuff id think easily applicable in a home game, but As i do not play PFS i don't know how much leeway DM's have for this sort of thing.
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I made a thread about 4 months back whining about the infinite cheese potential of the double hackbut and nobody listened to me.
I hate to say I told you so but...
Can we just say that the double hackbut isn't suitable for PFS play and errata the range on the double barrel musket to 30ft and save us all a lot of pain, please?
Where does the double hackbut get it's "2" capacity from? It's a single barreled muzzle loader. And i doubt it was given a capacity of 2 to make up for how weak it was...
I get it's supposed to be a "miniature" canon, but cannons have a three round loading procedure. Shouldn't the hackbut have a two to three round loading procedure as well?
Also, if a large creature can wield a medium hackbut two handed... Can a medium creature wield a small hackbut as well? If not, why not? It's the same proportion.
Where does the double hackbut get it's "2" capacity from? It's a single barreled muzzle loader. And i doubt it was given a capacity of 2 to make up for how weak it was...
It's probably a typo or a mistake (i.e., mixing it with "double-barreled").
I get it's supposed to be a "miniature" canon, but cannons have a three round loading procedure. Shouldn't the hackbut have a two to three round loading procedure as well?
The culverin is a miniture cannon. A double hackbut is a large-bore, long-barreled musket.
Also, if a large creature can wield a medium hackbut two handed... Can a medium creature wield a small hackbut as well? If not, why not? It's the same proportion.
Nothing preventing it, although at 4,000 gp for a small double-hackbut instead of 1,500 gp for a medium musket, it's a pricy way to increase damage from 1d12 to 2d10 (at -2 on attack rolls; DPR will only increase slightly because of the penalty).
Nothing preventing it, although at 4,000 gp for a small double-hackbut instead of 1,500 gp for a medium musket, it's a pricy way to increase damage from 1d12 to 2d10 (at -2 on attack rolls; DPR will only increase slightly because of the penalty).
Add Vital Strike in.
4d10 is a huge increase over 1d12
+ A double hackbut has more range.
Going from 1d12 avg (6.5) to 2d10 avg (11) is on average a 4.5 increase. Better than the trade off for deadly aim (which most gunslingers I've seen consider very useful). And probably worth the 2.5k by itself for a gunslinger.Nothing preventing it, although at 4,000 gp for a small double-hackbut instead of 1,500 gp for a medium musket, it's a pricy way to increase damage from 1d12 to 2d10 (at -2 on attack rolls; DPR will only increase slightly because of the penalty).
Note I said DPR will only increase slightly, not damage per hit. Effectively, a character using a small double hackbut instead of a medium musket will miss 10% more often. Generally, each +1/-1 on attack rolls is roughly equal +2/-2 damage on DPR (it gets more complex when factoring in multiple attacks); so the -2 penalty for being inappropriately sized would reduce the effective damage of the small double hackbut to about 7 vs. the 6.5 for the medium musket (assuming all other bonuses/penalties are the same) for DPR.
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I made a thread about 4 months back whining about the infinite cheese potential of the double hackbut and nobody listened to me.
I hate to say I told you so but...
I enlarge and rapid shot, multi-shot, deadly aim shot, clustered shot the enemy for 2d12 touch damage and paper cartridges!!! LOL!!! I WINZOR PFS!!! ikilld tarrasque in 1 rnd!
Can we just say that the double hackbut isn't suitable for PFS play and errata the range on the double barrel musket to 30ft and save us all a lot of pain, please?
Sorry, but enlarge doesn't affect projectiles and multishot can't be used on guns.
It's probably a typo or a mistake (i.e., mixing it with "double-barreled").
I hope it is.
The culverin is a miniture cannon. A double hackbut is a large-bore, long-barreled musket.
Not mechanically speaking, no. The double hackbut is closer to a canon than the culverin. Both, in how it is operated and damage potential.
In fact, the hackbut overshadows the culverin in every single way for the same price. It even has a cannon-like cart to lug around on so it doesn't depend on terrain for support, deals more damage and it's lighter, too.
A hackbut should be an oversized musket, with the small version dealing 1d12 and the medium version dealing 3d6. Instead, the damage is more like a small cannon with it's 2d12 output overshadowing every single firearm in the book.
I would actually make the thing a single man siege engine, similar to the light ballista, which actually deals very similar damage to it.
Wait a minute... The culverin says it's a scatter weapon on the description, but it still has a range marked. Is that the range for regular shots or the cone size? Actually, being a huge bore firearm, should it even be using the same bullets as the other guns?
Free actions don't take any time at all, though there may be limits to the number of free actions you can perform in a turn.
No errata needed. If you do not think it is feasible to reload a weapon more than once/turn then limit the number of times that free action can be performed in a turn.
I am still not seeing anything that contradicts RAW, or would consider unbalancing. Is there something I am missing?
Eh, since the topic itself is pretty broad, we (or is it just me?) are bringing up other concerns, like:
A single two handed firearm (Double Hackbut) is far better than all other two handed firearms. As written, anyway.
The hackbut should be a siege engine, toned down slightly or all the other guns need to be bumped up a notch.
The hackbutt also has a listed capacity of 2 when it is a single barreled firearm.
The double musket is actually worse than the double pistol and the fire lance is just a very expensive javelin throw that doesn't get a strength bonus and may explode on your hands.
The Blunderbuss is the only scatter weapon with a range increment of "special" for no discernible reasons.
The original question was just a rules clarification on reloading times, which was already addressed.
The hackbut just seems to be a weapon that can be fired twice before needing to be reloaded.
I am trying to egg anyone on, but I am really not seeing the unbalancing part. It all seems RAW and balanced to me.
RAW? Yes. It is exactly as it is written. Balanced? I don't think it is. You have a weapon that deals as much damage as a siege engine (Light Ballista) yet is far easier to operate and load.
And no, it cannot be fired twice before needing to reload. It's a single barreled muzzle loader.
The whole braced against a wall or suffer penalties sounds restrictive.
Double Hackbuts have a built in brace (like siege engines) and don't require you to have appropriate terrain around you.
Per RAW, the carriage is an integrated part of the weapon and the thing doesn't occupy extra space and isn't slowed down due to it's method of maneuvering.
You can house rule these things, of course, but the rules treat it as a regular weapon you spend a full round deploying the first time. And there is nothing saying you need to fold it up ever again, so, by RAW, you can deploy it when you bought it and never worry again.
The cart and everything are just fluff for "Spend full round action deploying weapon so it doesn't penalize you, use as normal firearm".
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My concerns were for Pathfinder Society so RAW (subject to the campaign guide) is essential.
Outside of RAW:
Its a very long carriage gun with a ramrod for loading. It is a tall assumption that anyone can shove the rammer down the barrel three times a round in six seconds, while aiming three times. Movement is not restricted so you can even roll the cart five feet over any non-difficult terrain, while loading and shooting.
I have seen dog mounted halfling paladins charge and single shot demons while smiting with a lance, and they do less damage than what this weapon can do every time after the first round.
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One thing that I don't see mentioned above is that rapid reload only applies to a single type of weapon. Therefore, although a musket master gets rapid reload (musket) for free, he still needs to spend one of his feats on rapid reload (double hackbut) in order to reduce the reload time on a double hackbut.
Free actions don't take any time at all, though there may be limits to the number of free actions you can perform in a turn.No errata needed. If you do not think it is feasible to reload a weapon more than once/turn then limit the number of times that free action can be performed in a turn.
But then apply that ruling across the board.
It says you can limit the number of free actions in a turn, but specifies one or more. So the most you can limit is "2" free actions per turn.
So, while this will cripple medium level gunslingers (and any other ranged attackers), keep in mind how it affects others also.
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Double Hackbut is not a musket, nor does it mention anything about "muskets" in it's name.I don't understand this comment.
It is a two-hand firearm, so it follows the same rules for a two-hand firearm, also a Musket Master can use them.
Rapid Reloader: At 1st level, a musket master gains Rapid Reload (muskets) as a bonus feat
This. It is not a musket, thus he'd have to burn another feat on Rapid Reload, to get the ability to have reloads be a free action.
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Double Hackbut is not a musket, nor does it mention anything about "muskets" in it's name.I don't understand this comment.
It is a two-hand firearm, so it follows the same rules for a two-hand firearm, also a Musket Master can use them.
Rapid Reloader: At 1st level, a musket master gains Rapid Reload (muskets) as a bonus feat
This. It is not a musket, thus he'd have to burn another feat on Rapid Reload, to get the ability to have reloads be a free action.
Sorry was not arguing that, I think we were arguing different things.
I thought you were stating that all the Musket Master abilities required the Musket.
I am aware he still needs to get another rapid reload feat.
I hate to say I told you so but...I enlarge and rapid shot, multi-shot, deadly aim shot, clustered shot the enemy for 2d12 touch damage and paper cartridges!!! LOL!!! I WINZOR PFS!!! ikilld tarrasque in 1 rnd!
Let's examine this a moment.
Enlarge would cause using it more difficult within a confined space due to your, and it's, size - and that is it! Because as soon as the leave the muzzle, it's no longer effected by Enlarge. (Mind you, if there becomes some variant of Gravity Bow, then you can bring this discussion back up).
Multi-shot? I assume you mean Manyshot - which only effects bows (and not even crossbows, let alone firearms), because there is no feat or spell I can find for 'multi-shot'.
Deadly Aim doesn't apply in the first range increment - because it can't be used with Touch Attacks, which all firearms are in the first increment. So, yeah, it's still going to be hard to hit that Tarrasque with Deadly Aim.
Also, keep in mind that the misfire in that scenario is 1-3, which is pretty significant, all things considered.
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Deadly Aim doesn't apply in the first range increment - because it can't be used with Touch Attacks, which all firearms are in the first increment. So, yeah, it's still going to be hard to hit that Tarrasque with Deadly Aim.
Range and Penetration: Armor, whether manufactured
or natural, provides little protection against the force of a
bullet at short range.
Early Firearms: When firing an early firearm, the attack
resolves against the target’s touch AC when the target is
within the first range increment of the weapon, but this type
of attack is not considered a touch attack for the purposes
of feats and abilities such as Deadly Aim. At higher range
increments, the attack resolves normally, including taking
the normal cumulative –2 penalty for each full range
increment. Unlike other projectile weapons, early firearms
have a maximum range of five range increments.
Advanced Firearms: Advanced firearms resolve their
attacks against touch AC when the target is within the
first five range increments, but this type of attack is not
considered a touch attack for the purposes of feats such as
Deadly Aim. At higher range increments, the attack resolves
normally, including taking the normal cumulative –2
penalty for each full-range increment. Advanced firearms
have a maximum range of 10 range increments.
Deadly Aim works just fine with guns at any range.
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Also, if a large creature can wield a medium hackbut two handed... Can a medium creature wield a small hackbut as well? If not, why not? It's the same proportion.Nothing preventing it, although at 4,000 gp for a small double-hackbut instead of 1,500 gp for a medium musket, it's a pricy way to increase damage from 1d12 to 2d10 (at -2 on attack rolls; DPR will only increase slightly because of the penalty).
Actually Ultimate Combat specifically calls out Large or larger creatures firing double hackbuts one size smaller without being knocked prone
I hate to say I told you so but...I enlarge and rapid shot, multi-shot, deadly aim shot, clustered shot the enemy for 2d12 touch damage and paper cartridges!!! LOL!!! I WINZOR PFS!!! ikilld tarrasque in 1 rnd!
Let's examine this a moment.
Enlarge would cause using it more difficult within a confined space due to your, and it's, size - and that is it! Because as soon as the leave the muzzle, it's no longer effected by Enlarge. (Mind you, if there becomes some variant of Gravity Bow, then you can bring this discussion back up).
I think the point of enlarge person is to avoid having to set up the gun
All this considered you can still fire a gun while prone, so i don't know why it's such an issue, ok maybe moving will be an issue but that'd be it.