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2 people marked this as a favorite.

I have a masochistic streak a mile wide, so I'm going to go through a number of the Pathfinder feats and "update" them so they aren't so terrible anymore. First things first, I'm going to remove all of the following feats:

• Quicken Spell.
• Natural Spell.
• Point Blank Shot.
• Mobility.
• Endurance.
• Every single little piss +2/+2 feat.
• Crafting feats. These irritate me for a number of reasons.

With that being said, let's go through the feats in no particular order.

• Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Focus, and Greater Weapon Specialization. These feats give powerful disrespect to the fighter. Powerful disrespect, I say. +2 to attack and +4 damage? For a single weapon? Pathetic.

Weapon Focus
Choose a single weapon group (as described in the fighter class description). When using a weapon in that group, you gain benefits depending on your level.

1st level: +1 on attack rolls.
4th level: +2 on damage rolls.
8th level: +1 on attack rolls (+2 total).
12th level: +2 on damage rolls (+4 total).

Special: You may take this feat more than once. Each time you take it, it applies to a new weapon group.

• Power Attack/Deadly Aim. Boy, do these two irritate me. If you want to do your fightan thing, you need this feat to do damage. Now, the game pretends there's a trade-off because you're taking a penalty to damage, but you're almost always going to want to use PA/DA. In 3e, with the "slider" method of Power Attack, there was an illusion of choice, but that's completely gone in Pathfinder. Why are we even bothering pretending that this feat is anything other than free bonus damage with a penalty to attacks that pretends to balance it out? Might as well make it easier to use.

Power Attack
You gain a bonus on melee damage rolls equal to half your level (minimum 1).

Deadly Aim
You gain a bonus on ranged damage rolls equal to half your level (minimum 1).

• Iron Will, Great Fortitude, and Lightning Reflexes. They just aren't that great. +2 to a saving throw? That's just not that good, especially not when a cloak of resistance hands out a +5 bonus to all three of them. Best suggestion I have is to combine them with other, less-than-stellar feats.

Iron Will
You gain a +2 bonus on Will saves. In addition, you gain the benefits of the Blind Fighting feat. (Which I am too lazy to reproduce here.)

Great Fortitude
You gain a +2 bonus on Fortitude saves, and you gain +1 hit point per HD. (This feat replaces the Toughness feat.)

Lightning Reflexes
You gain a +2 bonus on Reflex saves and a +1 dodge bonus to AC. In addition, you can draw or sheathe a weapon as a free action. (This feat replaces the Quick Draw and Dodge feats.)

• Vital Strike. Lots of potential but it was ruined by a crappy feat chain. Also the mechanics of the feat itself are wonky.

Vital Strike
Prerequisites: Base attack bonus +6.
As a standard action, you can make a single attack at your highest attack bonus. If the attack hits, you do additional damage according to your base attack bonus.

+6: +2d8 damage (melee), +2d6 (ranged).
+9: +4d8 damage (melee), +4d6 (ranged).
+11: +7d8 damage (melee), +7d6 (ranged).
+13: +9d8 damage (melee), +9d6 (ranged).
+16: +12d8 damage (melee), +12d6 (ranged).

If you are wielding a weapon in two hands or two-weapon fighting, you do +1 damage per die rolled.

Special: You may use this ability with the melee attack at the end of a charge.

• Armor & Shield Proficiency feats. Is there anything more useless? Chances are that anyone who wants to use these feats can't cast in the armor anyway.

Armor Proficiency
You gain proficiency with all armor and shields.

• The above also goes for weapon training.

Martial Weapon Training
You gain proficiency in all simple and martial weapons.

Exotic Weapon Training
Prerequisite: Training in simple and martial weapons.
You gain proficiency in all exotic weapons.

• Skill Focus is terrible. Pathfinder attempted to make it better but didn't really.

Skill Focus
Choose two skills. You gain a +3 bonus to each of them.

Special: You may take this feat more than once. Each time you do, you choose two different skills.

• The two-weapon chain is awful, just awful. Too many feats at once with a ridiculously high stat prerequisite.

Two-Weapon Fighting
Your penalties on attack rolls for fighting with two weapons are reduced. The penalty for your primary hand lessens by 2 and the one for your off hand lessens by 6. You also get a +2 shield bonus to AC when fighting with two weapons.

In addition, once you have +6 BAB, you can make a second attack with your off-hand weapon at your full attack bonus (though you still take the penalties for fighting with two weapons). (This replaces the TWF, Improved TWF, and Two-Weapon Defense feats.)

• The various combat maneuver feats. Huge waste of resources.

Improved Combat Maneuvers
You do not suffer an attack of opportunity for attempting any combat maneuver. In addition, you gain a +2 bonus to your CMB and CMD, and you may freely intersperse CMB checks in place of attacks in a full attack (taking appropriate penalties as if the attack were an iterative attack).

• Cleave, Greater Cleave, Cleaving Finish, etc. How ridiculously lazy is it that Paizo reprinted 3e Cleave as Cleaving Finish? Shameful.

Cleave
As a standard action, make a melee attack at your highest attack bonus against an enemy within reach. If it hits, you may make an attack against another enemy within reach. You may continue to make attacks against enemies as long as you continue to hit, but you may not attack the same target more than once.

Whenever you drop a target (typically by reducing it to 0 or fewer HP), you may make a melee attack at your highest attack bonus against an enemy within reach. If you hit and drop that enemy, you may continue to make melee attacks until you miss or an enemy survives your onslaught.

• Shield feats. The shield fighter needs some love, but he ain't getting it with Paizo.

Shield Master
You gain a +1 bonus to your AC when wielding a shield, you do not lose your shield bonus to AC when performing a shield bash, and you do not suffer a penalty on attack rolls when using a tower shield. In addition, you may apply your shield bonus to your touch AC.

• Step Up and Step Up & Strike. So close, yet so far away.

Step Up
When an opponent that you threaten takes a five-foot step, you may take a five-foot step as an immediate action to follow him. This does not use up your five-foot step for the round. You may also make an attack of opportunity against your opponent when using this ability.

• Improved Critical I would like to simplify.

Improved Critical
All your critical hits automatically confirm.

• Run and Fleet both suck.

Fleet of Foot
Your base move speed increases by five feet. When running, you move five times your normal speed (if wearing medium, light, or no armor and carrying no more than a medium load) or four times your speed (if wearing heavy armor or carrying a heavy load). If you make a jump after a running start (see the Acrobatics skill description), you gain a +4 bonus on your Acrobatics check. While running, you retain your Dexterity bonus to your Armor Class.

• Diehard and Disruptive are unrelated aside from starting with the letter D, and yet they are both terrible.

Diehard
When your hit point total is below 0, but you are not dead, you automatically stabilize. You do not need to make a Constitution check each round to avoid losing additional hit points. You may choose to act as if you were at 1 HP, rather than dying. You must make this decision as soon as you are reduced to negative hit points (even if it isn't your turn).

In addition, your minimum negative hit points are equal to -10 - your Constitution score. If that makes sense.

Disruptive
All enemies that are within your threatened area cannot cast spells defensively. This only applies if you are aware of the enemy's location.

• Some more random feats drawn from a hat.

Nimble Moves
You may treat all difficult terrain as normal terrain.

Penetrating Strike
Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +5.
Your weapon attacks may ignore damage reduction based on your level.

5th level: DR 5/any.
10th level: DR 10/any.
15th level: DR 15/any.

Wind Stance
If you move more than five feet in a round, all ranged and melee attacks against you suffer a 20% miss chance.

Lightning Stance
The miss chance from Wind Stance improves to 50%.

Lunge
Your reach increases by five feet.

Discuss.


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Everything sounds overpowered. I hate it.

Also, Quicken Spell? REALLY!?!

Andoran

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

Now this I can get behind.

Penetrating Strike should be 'You may ignore a number of points of DR equal to your BAB'.


Quicken and Natural Spell... bad? What!?

Deadly Aim is far too powerful with your version, especially for Ray specialist casters.

Edit: TWF is close to okay, but I'd rather have more attacks with my off-hand than just two.


Quicken and Natural Spell aren't bad. They're just removed because I hate them both.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Deluxe Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Card Game Subscriber
Enchanter Tom wrote:

I have a masochistic streak a mile wide, so I'm going to go through a number of the Pathfinder feats and "update" them so they aren't so terrible anymore. First things first, I'm going to remove all of the following feats:

• Quicken Spell.
• Natural Spell.
• Point Blank Shot.
• Mobility.
• Endurance.
• Every single little piss +2/+2 feat.
• Crafting feats. These irritate me for a number of reasons.

I don't understand removing most of these. I could see removing Point Blank Shot as a pre-req for most archer feats is about it.

Enchanter Tom wrote:


With that being said, let's go through the feats in no particular order.

• Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Focus, and Greater Weapon Specialization. These feats give powerful disrespect to the fighter. Powerful disrespect, I say. +2 to attack and +4 damage? For a single weapon? Pathetic.

Weapon Focus
Choose a single weapon group (as described in the fighter class description). When using a weapon in that group, you gain benefits depending on your level.

1st level: +1 on attack rolls.
4th level: +2 on damage rolls.
8th level: +1 on attack rolls (+2 total).
12th level: +2 on damage rolls (+4 total).

Special: You may take this feat more than once. Each time you take it, it applies to a new weapon group.

One feat for all these bonuses? Seems a tad OP to me. Expanding the feats to an entire weapon group? That seems reasonable though, I like that idea.

Enchanter Tom wrote:

• Power Attack/Deadly Aim. Boy, do these two irritate me. If you want to do your fightan thing, you need this feat to do damage. Now, the game pretends there's a trade-off because you're taking a penalty to damage, but you're almost always going to want to use PA/DA. In 3e, with the "slider" method of Power Attack, there was an illusion of choice, but that's completely gone in Pathfinder. Why are we even bothering pretending that this feat is anything other than free bonus damage with a penalty to attacks that pretends to balance it out? Might as well make it easier to use.

Power Attack
You gain a bonus on melee damage rolls equal to half your level (minimum 1).

Deadly Aim
You gain a bonus on ranged damage rolls equal to half your level (minimum 1).

Others have said remove as feats and simply add as combat options, which I think is a better idea.

Enchanter Tom wrote:

• Iron Will, Great Fortitude, and Lightning Reflexes. They just aren't that great. +2 to a saving throw? That's just not that good, especially not when a cloak of resistance hands out a +5 bonus to all three of them. Best suggestion I have is to combine them with other, less-than-stellar feats.

Iron Will
You gain a +2 bonus on Will saves. In addition, you gain the benefits of the Blind Fighting feat. (Which I am too lazy to reproduce here.)

Great Fortitude
You gain a +2 bonus on Fortitude saves, and you gain +1 hit point per HD. (This feat replaces the Toughness feat.)

Lightning Reflexes
You gain a +2 bonus on Reflex saves and a +1 dodge bonus to AC. In addition, you can draw or sheathe a weapon as a free action. (This feat replaces the Quick Draw and Dodge feats.)

Unecessarily buffing already good feats in my opinion.

Enchanter Tom wrote:


• Vital Strike. Lots of potential but it was ruined by a crappy feat chain. Also the mechanics of the feat itself are wonky.

Vital Strike
Prerequisites: Base attack bonus +6.
As a standard action, you can make a single attack at your highest attack bonus. If the attack hits, you do additional damage according to your base attack bonus.

+6: +2d8 damage (melee), +2d6 (ranged).
+9: +4d8 damage (melee), +4d6 (ranged).
+11: +7d8 damage (melee), +7d6 (ranged).
+13: +9d8 damage (melee), +9d6 (ranged).
+16: +12d8 damage (melee), +12d6 (ranged).

If you are wielding a weapon in two hands or two-weapon fighting, you do +1 damage per die rolled.

Special: You may use this ability with the melee attack at the end of a charge.

Vital strike is another I've seen recomended as a combat option. A feat letting you do it at the end of a charge would be nice though. Those numbers seem excessive.

Enchanter Tom wrote:


• Armor & Shield Proficiency feats. Is there anything more useless? Chances are that anyone who wants to use these feats can't cast in the armor anyway.

Armor Proficiency
You gain proficiency with all armor and shields.

• The above also goes for weapon training.

Martial Weapon Training
You gain proficiency in all simple and martial weapons.

Exotic Weapon Training
Prerequisite: Training in simple and martial weapons.
You gain proficiency in all exotic weapons.

I like the weapon training part, but not so much a fan of the armor part. Most exotic weapons aren't very good to be worth a feat each.

Enchanter Tom wrote:


• Skill Focus is terrible. Pathfinder attempted to make it better but didn't really.

Skill Focus
Choose two skills. You gain a +3 bonus to each of them.

Special: You may take this feat more than once. Each time you do, you choose two different skills.

Another unneeded buff to an already good feat.

Enchanter Tom wrote:


• The two-weapon chain is awful, just awful. Too many feats at once with a ridiculously high stat prerequisite.

Two-Weapon Fighting
Your penalties on attack rolls for fighting with two weapons are reduced. The penalty for your primary hand lessens by 2 and the one for your off hand lessens by 6. You also get a +2 shield bonus to AC when fighting with two weapons.

In addition, once you have +6 BAB, you can make a second attack with your off-hand weapon at your full attack bonus (though you still take the penalties for fighting with two weapons). (This replaces the TWF, Improved TWF, and Two-Weapon Defense feats.)

Two-weapon fighting isn't the optimal option usually, it would be interesting to see the numbers on this. Not sure the random shield bonus makes that much sense to me at least.

Enchanter Tom wrote:

• The various combat maneuver feats. Huge waste of resources.

Improved Combat Maneuvers
You do not suffer an attack of opportunity for attempting any combat maneuver. In addition, you gain a +2 bonus to your CMB and CMD, and you may freely intersperse CMB checks in place of attacks in a full attack (taking appropriate penalties as if the attack were an iterative attack).

A maneuver based character does have issues, but I think that's more with how CMD is determined. Lumping them all together seems to make for one overly strong feat.

Enchanter Tom wrote:

• Cleave, Greater Cleave, Cleaving Finish, etc. How ridiculously lazy is it that Paizo reprinted 3e Cleave as Cleaving Finish? Shameful.

Cleave
As a standard action, make a melee attack at your highest attack bonus against an enemy within reach. If it hits, you may make an attack against another enemy within reach. You may continue to make attacks against enemies as long as you continue to hit, but you may not attack the same target more than once.

Whenever you drop a target (typically by reducing it to 0 or fewer HP), you may make a melee attack at your highest attack bonus against an enemy within reach. If you hit and drop that enemy, you may continue to make melee attacks until you miss or an enemy survives your onslaught.

I prefer Paizo's cleave (just lose the -2 AC penalty).

Enchanter Tom wrote:

• Shield feats. The shield fighter needs some love, but he ain't getting it with Paizo.

Shield Master
You gain a +1 bonus to your AC when wielding a shield, you do not lose your shield bonus to AC when performing a shield bash, and you do not suffer a penalty on attack rolls when using a tower shield. In addition, you may apply your shield bonus to your touch AC.

No opinion on.

Enchanter Tom wrote:

• Step Up and Step Up & Strike. So close, yet so far away.

Step Up
When an opponent that you threaten takes a five-foot step, you may take a five-foot step as an immediate action to follow him. This does not use up your five-foot step for the round. You may also make an attack of opportunity against your opponent when using this ability.

Seems way too strong in my opinion. Being able to follow someone trying to 5' step away AND make an AoO against them? That's just obscene.

Enchanter Tom wrote:

• Improved Critical I would like to simplify.

Improved Critical
All your critical hits automatically confirm.

I'd have to test that one. Seems like it could be too strong in some cases, too weak in others.

Enchanter Tom wrote:

• Run and Fleet both suck.

Fleet of Foot
Your base move speed increases by five feet. When running, you move five times your normal speed (if wearing medium, light, or no armor and carrying no more than a medium load) or four times your speed (if wearing heavy armor or carrying a heavy load). If you make a jump after a running start (see the Acrobatics skill description), you gain a +4 bonus on your Acrobatics check. While running, you retain your Dexterity bonus to your Armor Class.

Combining Run and Fleet into one sounds good.

Enchanter Tom wrote:

• Diehard and Disruptive are unrelated aside from starting with the letter D, and yet they are both terrible.

Diehard
When your hit point total is below 0, but you are not dead, you automatically stabilize. You do not need to make a Constitution check each round to avoid losing additional hit points. You may choose to act as if you were at 1 HP, rather than dying. You must make this decision as soon as you are reduced to negative hit points (even if it isn't your turn).

In addition, your minimum negative hit points are equal to -10 - your Constitution score. If that makes sense.

No opinion.

Enchanter Tom wrote:

Disruptive

All enemies that are within your threatened area cannot cast spells defensively. This only applies if you are aware of the enemy's location.

No.

Enchanter Tom wrote:

• Some more random feats drawn from a hat.

Nimble Moves
You may treat all difficult terrain as normal terrain.

No opinion.

Enchanter Tom wrote:


Penetrating Strike
Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +5.
Your weapon attacks may ignore damage reduction based on your level.

5th level: DR 5/any.
10th level: DR 10/any.
15th level: DR 15/any.

Has potential.

Enchanter Tom wrote:

Wind Stance

If you move more than five feet in a round, all ranged and melee attacks against you suffer a 20% miss chance.

Seems a tad strong.

Enchanter Tom wrote:

Lightning Stance

The miss chance from Wind Stance improves to 50%.

No opinion as of yet.

Enchanter Tom wrote:

Lunge

Your reach increases by five feet.

Seems a tad strong to simply add 5' reach without any penalty whatsoever for only a feat.


4 people marked this as a favorite.

Do you comprehend at all the meaning of the words balance, judiciousness, moderation, and restraint? Almost every single one of your posted examples are over-the-top by a country mile, dude.

No. Just . . . no.

Master Arminas

Andoran

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

Over the top for your game maybe, ma.


Enchanter Tom wrote:
Quicken and Natural Spell aren't bad. They're just removed because I hate them both.

That's a terrible excuse.

RPG Superstar 2013 Top 8

I like how TOZ plays along with Tom's trolling. Top-notch stuff.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Some nice effort here!
I always thought the "save bonus" feats were hopelessly underwhelming, and the same goes for skill feats. +1

"Balancers" will rightfully frown be wary of your approach and results, but I'd use a lot of these - in some cases tweaked (Vital Strike most probably) and I'd give them to foe NPCs as well. It ALL depends on balance... ;)


Do fighters and humans still get all the bonus feats? If so:

Human Fighter 12 with Great Axe +2 and Full Plate +2 (my math may be off)
STR 22
DEX 14
CON 10
INT 9
WIS 10
CHA 8

AC 24
Fort +10
Ref +6
Will +6

+19/+14/+9 (1d12+22, 20/autoconfirm/x3, Blindfighting, ignore DR 10)
+19 (1d12+7d8+29, 20/autoconfirm/x3, Blindfighting, ignore DR 10)

Feats
1 Weapon Focus
1 Power Attack
1 Iron Will
2 Great Fortitude
3 Lightning Reflexes
4 Combat Reflexes
5 Step Up
6 Vital Strike
7 Cleave
8 Improved Critical
9 Disruptive
10 Penetrating Strike
11 Lunge
12 Improved Combat Manuevers

So, I can full attack, beginning with a trip (giving them -4 AC from prone), then when I kill them, I can kill the next few guys with my extra reach, and prevent anyone near me from casting, and ignore DR, and with all those attacks 1 in 20 will do triple damage, and I can do all of this all day long.

Who would play anything but human fighters?


Flak wrote:
I like how TOZ plays along with Tom's trolling. Top-notch stuff.

Successful Troll thanks poster for poster's support.


Quote:
Do you comprehend at all the meaning of the words balance, judiciousness, moderation, and restraint? Almost every single one of your posted examples are over-the-top by a country mile, dude.

In what ways? +2 attack, +4 damage is not strong, not in any way whatsoever.

Quote:
So, I can full attack, beginning with a trip (giving them -4 AC from prone), then when I kill them, I can kill the next few guys with my extra reach, and prevent anyone near me from casting, and ignore DR, and with all those attacks 1 in 20 will do triple damage, and I can do all of this all day long.

If you have an absolutely perfect turn in which all the enmies are perfectly lined up, all that is possible. But it's certainly unlikely. You'll also have to remember that at such a level, the wizard is capable of turning his enemies to stone.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Deluxe Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Card Game Subscriber
Enchanter Tom wrote:
If you have an absolutely perfect turn in which all the enmies are perfectly lined up, all that is possible. But it's certainly unlikely. You'll also have to remember that at such a level, the wizard is capable of turning his enemies to stone.

Not when the fighter standing next to him won't let him cast defensively, and hits him for enough damage he loses the spell. And +4 damage on that attack is similar to a -20% chance of success on the concentration check.


With lunge, you cover a pretty big area. A 10 foot radius (assuming I've got my numbers right) covers most of the average dungeon room. Also, with step up, no one is safely leaving that room. Actually, I should trade off +2 STR for more DEX in that build. The extra AoO and AC would probably be worth it given how little of the damage and attack is coming from STR.


Too much hyperbole. No one is auto-killing, auto-tripping, auto-petrifying anyone.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Xzaral wrote:
Not when the fighter standing next to him won't let him cast defensively, and hits him for enough damage he loses the spell. And +4 damage on that attack is similar to a -20% chance of success on the concentration check.

You're going to freak when you hear this, but in editions prior to 3e, even a single point of damage would disrupt a wizard's spell. And those spells had casting times of longer than a standard action. And wizards had fewer hit points.


master arminas wrote:

Do you comprehend at all the meaning of the words balance, judiciousness, moderation, and restraint? Almost every single one of your posted examples are over-the-top by a country mile, dude.

No. Just . . . no.

Master Arminas

Yo, I heard you like feats. So I added feats to your feats, which are now mega-feats. Balance? Psshaw.

Tom wants more, so he has altered the feats, so that they give more and greater benefit. He clearly does not like small bonuses.

I think +2 attack and +4 damage is quite strong, don't like the giant bags of dice in the vital strike (but never liked vital strike), although Tom is right about prior editions. Although, some spells were quick to get off, other took a long time.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Deluxe Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Card Game Subscriber

Yes, and I'm not playing those editions anymore.

EDIT: Also previous editions didn't have AoOs.


Xzaral wrote:

Yes, and I'm not playing those editions anymore.

EDIT: Also previous editions didn't have AoOs.

Wizards be powerful enuff, dawg. Gotta let them fighters have some things.


Enchanter Tom wrote:
Xzaral wrote:
Not when the fighter standing next to him won't let him cast defensively, and hits him for enough damage he loses the spell. And +4 damage on that attack is similar to a -20% chance of success on the concentration check.
You're going to freak when you hear this, but in editions prior to 3e, even a single point of damage would disrupt a wizard's spell. And those spells had casting times of longer than a standard action. And wizards had fewer hit points.

Yes, I started playing in that edition. Tell you the truth, I didn't mind Wizards and Illusionists (and Sorcerers when 3rd added them) getting that d4 hit . . . why? Because their spells made up in spades for it. And that edition of the World's Greatest Game, also featured weapon speed, and such things as restrictions on the wealth certain character classes could accumulate, and only demi-humans could multiclass. Dual classing being restricted to humans only and VERY restrictive. There were no bonus spell slots per day, no cleric domains, and you were happy when you found--not bought, but found--a +2 weapon. When 18 was the absolute maximum ability score of a human--19 for some demi-humans in certain stats. 25 was as high as the chart went.

I have fond memories of that game.

But that is not the game we play today. In many respects, I prefer that older game. But it isn't Pathfinder.

And in Pathfinder, bonuses to attack and damage are already so prevelant and so high that if you don't see the harm in adding a single feat--with the only pre-req being proficient in the chosen weapon group--that gives a scaling bonus on both attacks and damage, then I feel sorry for you, sir. It would become a must-have feat posssessed by any character who ever planned on swinging a sword, a hammer, a mace, a box, an ex, a staff, or a fist. And if a feat is no longer an option, but something EVERYONE must have in order to keep pace with everyone else in the game, then it is by defination too good of a feat.

In my own humble opinion.

Master Arminas

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Deluxe Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Card Game Subscriber
Enchanter Tom wrote:
Xzaral wrote:

Yes, and I'm not playing those editions anymore.

EDIT: Also previous editions didn't have AoOs.

Wizards be powerful enuff, dawg. Gotta let them fighters have some things.

Giving them options is one thing. The changes you're recommending would negate a wizard. No quicken spell for a free action spell, unable to cast defensively, 10' reach so they can't 5' out of range anyway with no adjacent deadzone, which doesn't matter since they'll just follow you AND get an AoO against you.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Quote:
The changes you're recommending would negate a wizard. No quicken spell for a free action spell, unable to cast defensively, 10' reach so they can't 5' out of range anyway with no adjacent deadzone, which doesn't matter since they'll just follow you AND get an AoO against you.

Ignoring the range of defensive options a wizard has at his disposal, of course, which include mirror image and flying and various other such spells. But the point was to render the wizard gravely imperiled when within the fighter's reach, as it should be.

Quote:
And in Pathfinder, bonuses to attack and damage are already so prevelant and so high that if you don't see the harm in adding a single feat--with the only pre-req being proficient in the chosen weapon group--that gives a scaling bonus on both attacks and damage, then I feel sorry for you, sir. It would become a must-have feat posssessed by any character who ever planned on swinging a sword, a hammer, a mace, a box, an ex, a staff, or a fist. And if a feat is no longer an option, but something EVERYONE must have in order to keep pace with everyone else in the game, then it is by defination too good of a feat.

If it offends thee, pluck it out. Or I could simply make the benefits of the feat scale based on fighter levels.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I am reminded of a Chelixian zoo that I once visited in another life.
A hulking green monster bellowed at me from within a towering cage.
At the base of the cage was a sign mounted on a small bronze plate.
I knelt for a better look, wary of the beast before me.
The sign read, "Please, do not feed the Troll."

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Weapon focus: Pick a Weapon. You gain +1 to hit with that weapon.
If you are a Fighter, you may instead double your Weapon Training bonus From class levels with that weapon.

Great Fort/Light Reflex/Iron Will: You gain a Good Save progression of the appropriate save, or +2 to that save.

Vital Strike Progression and Penetrating Strike should be based on BAB, not levels. BAB should be precious and useful.

==Aelryinth


Enchanter Tom wrote:
Quote:
The changes you're recommending would negate a wizard. No quicken spell for a free action spell, unable to cast defensively, 10' reach so they can't 5' out of range anyway with no adjacent deadzone, which doesn't matter since they'll just follow you AND get an AoO against you.
Ignoring the range of defensive options a wizard has at his disposal, of course, which include mirror image and flying and various other such spells. But the point was to render the wizard gravely imperiled when within the fighter's reach, as it should be.

If a fighter gets within arm's reach of a hostile wizard, he is ALREADY gravely imperiled, as you put it. Feats exist that make that wizard a sitting duck if he tries to cast in the threatened area; more allow a fighter to follow the wizard on a 5' step away even when it isn't the fighters turn; the fighters raw damage means that few wizards will be able to successfully get off a spell in those circumstances.

Look at Disruptive and Spellbreaker, and Stand Still, and Lunge, and Step Up. You are searching for a solution to a problem that does not exist. And doing so in such a way to unbalance the game itself.

But you will do what you will do. I am done arguing.

Master Arminas


slacks wrote:
Too much hyperbole. No one is auto-killing, auto-tripping, auto-petrifying anyone.

Exaggerating maybe, but I don't think it's quite hyperbole.

Take a Ghaele. It's CR 13, but the numbers aren't that much higher than the fighter's. I don't have time or energy to run a test fight between the two right now, and I doubt my fighter from earlier is as strong as it could be, but I suspect that once the Ghaele got into range, it'd be in trouble.


Flak wrote:
I like how TOZ plays along with Tom's trolling. Top-notch stuff.

Actually... I don't think he is. Have you see the Kirthfinder rules?

Shadow Lodge

Some days even I don't know when I'm trolling.


To the OP, I love your changes. My only gripe is binding Iron Will and Blind Fighting. That rubs me a little wrong.

In my house rules, I let the improved save feats put you on the good feat advancement table if you aren't on it already. The improved version gives you an extra +2 and a reroll. If you are already on the good table, you can just take the improved version.


Xzaral wrote:
Enchanter Tom wrote:
Xzaral wrote:

Yes, and I'm not playing those editions anymore.

EDIT: Also previous editions didn't have AoOs.

Wizards be powerful enuff, dawg. Gotta let them fighters have some things.
Giving them options is one thing. The changes you're recommending would negate a wizard. No quicken spell for a free action spell, unable to cast defensively, 10' reach so they can't 5' out of range anyway with no adjacent deadzone, which doesn't matter since they'll just follow you AND get an AoO against you.

I agree with the OP. Back in 2e everyone thought the wizard was fair. It wasn't until they gave 5' steps, concentration checks, and tripled the number of spells per day of the highest level that they became OPed.

RPG Superstar 2013 Top 8

Quote:
Have you see the Kirthfinder rules?

I have, and they're awesome, but it's basically a different system. Every gripe in this thread is that E.T.'s suggestions are not balanced with the rest of Pathfinder. That's totally moot when it comes to Kirthfinder. Not that I have too strong an opinion either way, here.


All threads are trolls, but some threads are more trollish than others. Take this thread as being less trollish.


Being a little bit of a troll is much like being a little bit pregnant. You either are, or you aren't. There is no little bit less.

Master Arminas

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Deluxe Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Card Game Subscriber
cranewings wrote:
Xzaral wrote:
Enchanter Tom wrote:
Xzaral wrote:

Yes, and I'm not playing those editions anymore.

EDIT: Also previous editions didn't have AoOs.

Wizards be powerful enuff, dawg. Gotta let them fighters have some things.
Giving them options is one thing. The changes you're recommending would negate a wizard. No quicken spell for a free action spell, unable to cast defensively, 10' reach so they can't 5' out of range anyway with no adjacent deadzone, which doesn't matter since they'll just follow you AND get an AoO against you.

I agree with the OP. Back in 2e everyone thought the wizard was fair. It wasn't until they gave 5' steps, concentration checks, and tripled the number of spells per day of the highest level that they became OPed.

In 2e the wizard was fair, when compared to the mechanics of how the game operated. This is not 2e and comparing it to 2e isn't valid, just nostalgia.


Enchanter Tom wrote:
All threads are trolls, but some threads are more trollish than others. Take this thread as being less trollish.

That's some fine trolling there dood.

RPG Superstar 2013 Top 8

This might be the best thread on the homebrew forums ATM, no joke.


master arminas wrote:

Being a little bit of a troll is much like being a little bit pregnant. You either are, or you aren't. There is no little bit less.

Master Arminas

I like Ron Paul, too, but that doesn't mean that trolls can't be less trollish once in a while.


Making some feat revisions per suggestions.

Penetrating Strike
Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +6.
Your weapon attacks may ignore damage reduction based on your base attack bonus.
+6: DR 5/any.
+11: DR 10/any.
+16: DR 15/any.

Power Attack
You gain a bonus on melee damage rolls equal to half your base attack bonus (minimum 1).

Deadly Aim
You gain a bonus on ranged damage rolls equal to one-third your base attack bonus (minimum 1).

Weapon Focus
Prerequisites: One level in fighter.
Choose a single weapon group (as described in the fighter class description). When using a weapon in that group, you gain benefits depending on your fighter class level.

1st level: +1 on attack rolls.
4th level: +2 on damage rolls.
8th level: +1 on attack rolls (+2 total).
12th level: +2 on damage rolls (+4 total).

Special: You may take this feat more than once. Each time you take it, it applies to a new weapon group.

Wind Stance
Prerequisite: Tumble 5 ranks.
When you move more than five feet in a round, ranged and melee attacks suffer a 20% miss chance against you.

Lightning Stance
Prerequisite: Tumble 10 ranks.
The miss chance from Wind Stance improves to 50%.

Now, on to some new feats.

• Arcane Armor Training/Master. Two feats to reduce your ASF by 20%. By using a swift action. This is less bad without Quicken Spell (u mad, wizards?), but is still not worth it.

Arcane Armor Mastery
Prerequisite: Caster level third.
You reduce the total arcane spell failure of the armor and shields you wear by 20%.

• Combat Expertise gives me fits. If you want to encourage Int-based fighters, you need to give them some incentive to divert points from their other stats to do so.

Combat Expertise
Prerequistes: Intelligence 13
You may add one point of your Intelligence bonus to your AC, CMB, and CMD for every two points of base attack bonus you have (with a minimum of a +1 bonus).

• Bodyguard is a turd. You can use up an AOO to attempt to improve an ally’s AC. By +2. That’s awful.

Bodyguard
When an ally within your reach is attacked, you may use an attack of opportunity to improve your ally’s AC by +2 or your shield bonus, whichever is higher.

• Rapid Reload is a very much bad feat that needs to stop sucking so crossbow archers have a reason to exist.

Rapid Reload
All weapons you wield that have a reload time of one standard action or less have their reload times shortened to a free action. Weapons that you wield with reload times greater than a standard action have their reload times shortened to a move action.

• Death or Glory is perhaps the most disappointing feat I have ever read, even worse than the 3e Toughness.

Death or Glory
Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +6.
As a standard action, you can make a single melee attack roll against a creature, rolling twice and taking the better result. This attack deals additional damage, but the creature may immediately make an attack of opportunity against you in response (after you have finished rolling damage against it). However, the damage from the creature’s attack of opportunity is multiplied in a like fashion, making this quite a gambit. This damage done by you and the creature depends on your respective base attack bonuses.

+6 BAB: Double damage.
+11 BAB: Triple damage.
+16 BAB: Quadruple damage.

If you score a critical hit against the creature, you do not multiply the damage further. Just assume that you rolled max damage on your damage roll.

• Feinting should be a viable combat tactic, not something that punishes rogues for trying to get in their sneak attacks.

Improved Feint
You can feint as a move action, and your opponent loses his Dexterity bonus against your attacks until the end of your next turn. In addition, you may treat your attack bonus as being equal to your HD when resisting a feint.

• In Harm’s Way needed to be beefed up slightly. Only using it 1/round is disappointing.

In Harm’s Way
Prerequisite: Bodyguard.
When using your Bodyguard feat and an attack hits your ally anyway, you may opt to take damage and all other associated effects (poison, disease, etc.) for him.

• Manyshot is pointless. The 3e incarnation was to allow archers to make a plethora of attacks with a standard action. The Pathfinder version exists to improve full attacks. The system needs to give a reason not to be full attacking each round.

Manyshot
Prerequisite: Precise Shot, base attack bonus +6.
As a standard action, you can make a number of ranged attacks against your enemies. You make a number of ranged attacks depending on your attack bonus (see below), each of which is made against a separate foe. These attacks are all made at your highest attack bonus, and they do additional damage based on your attack bonus (again, see below).

+6 BAB: Three attacks, +1d8 damage.
+11 BAB: Four attacks, +2d8 damage.
+16 BAB: Five attacks, +3d8 damage.

• Sidestep I do like, but not that it uses up your five-foot step. Or that you have to remain in the opponent’s threatened area. Or that it doesn’t apply against ranged attacks. (PROTIP: Paizo, we don’t really care if a character gets an extra five-foot step in a round. It’s not THE END OF THE WORLD that characters can move slightly farther than their move speed.)

Sidestep
Prerequisite: Dexterity 13.
Whenever an opponent misses you with a melee or ranged attack, you may move 5 feet as an immediate action.

• Spring Attack remains awful. Why? I do not know. Possibly because the writers of 3e and Pathfinder abhor the concept of fighters moving around in combat, which makes loads of sense.

Spring Attack
Prerequisite: Tumble 5 ranks.
As a full-round action, you can move up to twice your speed and make a single melee attack without provoking any attacks of opportunity due to movement. You can move both before and after the attack, but you must move at least 10 feet before the attack and the total distance that you move cannot be greater than twice your speed. You cannot use this ability to attack a foe that is adjacent to you at the start of your turn.

Your attack does additional damage based on your base attack bonus.

+1 BAB: +2d6 damage.
+6 BAB: +4d6 damage.
+11 BAB: +7d6 damage.
+16 BAB: +10d6 damage.

In addition, when you have 10 ranks in Tumble, you may make a second melee attack against a second creature.

• Strike Back is a good idea, but ultimately is a tit. You have to be level 11 to use it? Dumb. Also, readying actions is a lose-lose situation in a game of full attacks, unless you’re doing extra damage.

Strike Back
Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +5.
You can ready an action to make a melee attack against any foe that attacks you in melee, even if the foe is outside of your reach. Your attack does additional damage based on your base attack bonus.

+1 BAB: +1d8 damage.
+6 BAB: +3d8 damage.
+11 BAB: +6d8 damage.
+16 BAB: +9d8 damage.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Allow me to chime in personally that I share the OP's concerns almost across the board, and have already addressed them in my home game (referenced above as "Kirthfinder"). Tom -- rather than re-invent the wheel wholesale, you can feel free to steal, modify, or deface ideas from here.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Penetrating Strike
Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +6.
Your weapon attacks may ignore DR (damage reduction) equal to half your base attack bonus.

Thoughts?

Andoran

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

I already said I thought it should be equal to BAB. Half BAB would be an acceptable compromise.


Updated list below. I'm thinking of revamping the various +2/+2 feats to make them suck less (rather than simply boosting Skill Focus), but that is going to be a fair bit of work in and of itself.

Arcane Armor Mastery
Prerequisite: Caster level third.
You reduce the total arcane spell failure of the armor and shields you wear by 20%.

Armor Proficiency
You gain proficiency with all armor and shields.

Bodyguard
When an ally within your reach is attacked, you may use an attack of opportunity to improve your ally’s AC by +2 or your shield bonus, whichever is higher.

Cleave
As a standard action, make a melee attack at your highest attack bonus against an enemy within reach. If it hits, you may make an attack against another enemy within reach. You may continue to make attacks against enemies as long as you continue to hit, but you may not attack the same target more than once.

Whenever you drop a target (typically by reducing it to 0 or fewer HP), you may make a melee attack at your highest attack bonus against an enemy within reach. If you hit and drop that enemy, you may continue to make melee attacks until you miss or an enemy survives your onslaught.

Combat Expertise
Prerequistes: Intelligence 13, at least one level in fighter.

You may add your Intelligence bonus to your AC and CMD in place of your Dexterity bonus. All the same restrictions apply (such as maximum Dexterity bonus). You may also add your Intelligence bonus to your CMB in place of your Strength modifier.

Deadly Aim
You gain a bonus on ranged damage rolls equal to one-third your base attack bonus (minimum 1).

Death or Glory
Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +6.

As a standard action, you can make a single melee attack roll against a creature, rolling twice and taking the better result. This attack deals additional damage, but the creature may immediately make an attack of opportunity against you in response (after you have finished rolling damage against it). However, the damage from the creature’s attack of opportunity is multiplied in a like fashion, making this quite a gambit. This damage done by you and the creature depends on your respective base attack bonuses.

+6 BAB: Double damage.
+11 BAB: Triple damage.
+16 BAB: Quadruple damage.

If you score a critical hit against the creature, you do not multiply the damage further. Just assume that you rolled max damage on your damage roll.

Diehard
When your hit point total is below 0, but you are not dead, you automatically stabilize. You do not need to make a Constitution check each round to avoid losing additional hit points. You may choose to act as if you were at 1 HP, rather than dying. You must make this decision as soon as you are reduced to negative hit points (even if it isn't your turn).

In addition, your minimum negative hit points are equal to -10 - your Constitution score. If that makes sense.

Disruptive
Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +5.

All enemies that are within your threatened area cannot cast spells defensively. This only applies if you are aware of the enemy's location.

Exotic Weapon Training
Prerequisite: Training in simple and martial weapons.

You gain proficiency in all exotic weapons.

Fleet of Foot
Your base move speed increases by five feet. When running, you move five times your normal speed (if wearing medium, light, or no armor and carrying no more than a medium load) or four times your speed (if wearing heavy armor or carrying a heavy load). If you make a jump after a running start (see the Acrobatics skill description), you gain a +4 bonus on your Acrobatics check. While running, you retain your Dexterity bonus to your Armor Class.

Great Fortitude
You gain a +2 bonus on Fortitude saves, and you gain +1 hit point per HD.

Improved Combat Maneuvers
You do not suffer an attack of opportunity for attempting any combat maneuver. In addition, you gain a +2 bonus to your CMB and CMD, and you may freely intersperse CMB checks in place of attacks in a full attack (taking appropriate penalties as if the attack were an iterative attack).

Improved Critical
Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +5.

All your critical hits automatically confirm.

Improved Feint
You can feint as a move action, and your opponent loses his Dexterity bonus against your attacks until the end of your next turn. In addition, you may treat your attack bonus as being equal to your HD when resisting a feint.

In Harm’s Way
Prerequisite: Bodyguard.
When using your Bodyguard feat and an attack hits your ally anyway, you may opt to take damage and all other associated effects (poison, disease, etc.) for him.

Iron Will
You gain a +2 bonus on Will saves. In addition, you gain the benefits of the Blind Fighting feat. (Which I am too lazy to reproduce here.)

Lightning Reflexes
You gain a +2 bonus on Reflex saves and a +1 dodge bonus to AC. In addition, you can draw or sheathe a weapon as a free action. (This feat replaces the Quick Draw and Dodge feats.)

Lunge
Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +5.

Your reach increases by five feet.

Manyshot
Prerequisite: Precise Shot, base attack bonus +6.

As a standard action, you can make a number of ranged attacks against your enemies. You make a number of ranged attacks depending on your attack bonus (see below), each of which is made against a separate foe. These attacks are all made at your highest attack bonus, and they do additional damage based on your attack bonus (again, see below).

+6 BAB: Three attacks, +1d8 damage.
+11 BAB: Five attacks, +2d8 damage.
+16 BAB: Six attacks, +3d8 damage.

Martial Weapon Training
You gain proficiency in all simple and martial weapons.

Mounted Combat
Prerequisite: Ride 1 rank.

Once per round when your mount is hit in combat, you may attempt a Ride check (as an immediate action) to negate the hit. The hit is negated if your Ride check result is greater than the opponent's attack roll.

When you are mounted and use the charge action, you may move and attack as if with a standard charge and then move again (continuing the straight line of the charge). Your total movement for the round can't exceed double your mounted speed. You and your mount do not provoke an attack of opportunity from the opponent that you attack.

Nimble Moves
You may treat all difficult terrain as normal terrain.

Penetrating Strike
Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +6.
Your weapon attacks may ignore damage reduction based on your base attack bonus.

+6: DR 5/any.
+11: DR 10/any.
+16: DR 15/any.

If your opponent has damage reduction greater than the amount you can ignore, you may reduce his effective damage reduction by the amount you ignore. For instance, if you attack a creature with DR 15/adamantine when you have a +7 attack bonus, you may treat it as having DR 10/adamantine instead.

Power Attack
You gain a bonus on melee damage rolls equal to half your base attack bonus (minimum 1).

Rapid Reload
All weapons you wield that have a reload time of one standard action or less have their reload times shortened to a free action. Weapons that you wield with reload times greater than a standard action have their reload times shortened to a move action.

Shield Master
You gain a +1 bonus to your AC when wielding a shield, you do not lose your shield bonus to AC when performing a shield bash, and you do not suffer a penalty on attack rolls when using a tower shield. In addition, you may apply your shield bonus to your touch AC.

Sidestep
Prerequisite: Dexterity 13.

Whenever an opponent misses you with a melee or ranged attack, you may move 5 feet as an immediate action.

Spring Attack
Prerequisite: Tumble 5 ranks.

As a full-round action, you can move up to twice your speed and make a single melee attack without provoking any attacks of opportunity due to movement. You can move both before and after the attack, but you must move at least 10 feet before the attack and the total distance that you move cannot be greater than twice your speed. You cannot use this ability to attack a foe that is adjacent to you at the start of your turn.

Your attack does additional damage based on your base attack bonus.

+1 BAB: +1d6 damage.
+6 BAB: +3d6 damage.
+11 BAB: +5d6 damage.
+16 BAB: +7d6 damage.

In addition, when you have 10 ranks in Tumble, you may make a second melee attack against a second creature.

Step Up
Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +5.

When an opponent that you threaten takes a five-foot step, you may take a five-foot step as an immediate action to follow him. This does not use up your five-foot step for the round. You may also make an attack of opportunity against your opponent when using this ability.

Strike Back
Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +5.

You can ready an action to make a full melee attack against any foe that attacks you in melee, even if the foe is outside of your reach.

Two-Weapon Fighting
Your penalties on attack rolls for fighting with two weapons are reduced. The penalty for your primary hand lessens by 2 and the one for your off hand lessens by 6. You also get a +2 shield bonus to AC when fighting with two weapons.

In addition, once you have +6 BAB, you can make a second attack with your off-hand weapon at your full attack bonus (though you still take the penalties for fighting with two weapons). (This replaces the TWF, Improved TWF, and Two-Weapon Defense feats.)

Vital Strike
Prerequisites: Base attack bonus +6.

As a standard action, you can make a single attack at your highest attack bonus. If the attack hits, you do additional damage according to your base attack bonus.

+6: +2d8 damage (melee), +2d6 (ranged).
+9: +4d8 damage (melee), +4d6 (ranged).
+11: +7d8 damage (melee), +7d6 (ranged).
+13: +9d8 damage (melee), +9d6 (ranged).
+16: +12d8 damage (melee), +12d6 (ranged).

If you are wielding a weapon in two hands or two-weapon fighting, you do +1 damage per die rolled.

Special: You may use this ability with the melee attack at the end of a charge.

Weapon Focus
Prerequisites: One level in fighter.

Choose a single weapon group (as described in the fighter class description). When using a weapon in that group, you gain benefits depending on your fighter class level.

1st level: +1 on attack rolls.
4th level: +2 on damage rolls.
8th level: +1 on attack rolls (+2 total).
12th level: +2 on damage rolls (+4 total).

Special: You may take this feat more than once. Each time you take it, it applies to a new weapon group.

Wind Stance
Prerequisite: Tumble 5 ranks.

When you move more than five feet in a round, ranged and melee attacks suffer a 20% miss chance against you.

Andoran

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

For Penetrating Strike, when you have a BAB of +6, do you only ignore DR of 5 or less, and still take the full penalty against DR 10, or do you subtract the 5 from any DR encountered?


Good question. The latter (more favorable) interpretation is correct, though the former is probably easier to use. I might have to change that at some point.

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