| 13 people marked this as a favorite. |
Roaring furiously, the massive red dragon swooped down and landed in the middle of the castle courtyard, its mighty claws crashing into the ground and sending fountains of dirt and rubble of what was once an artfully tiled floor in all directions. This was the chance Valeros was waiting for, weapons ready he charged at the beast and brought his sword around. One swing, two, three, four; the gigantic monster howled in anger and pain as the brave warrior sliced its ankle open.
I can't be the only one who is bothered by this.
I actually came up with this after seeing some demo footage for the upcoming video game "Dragon's Dogma". As it stands with the rules the combat is very basic, little more than "move there, do attack XY", and that's fine most of the time, especially for beginners, but why not spice it up a little, make combat a little more dynamic and interesting?
Why not something a little more along the lines of this:
Another swing from the stone giant's club sent Seoni flying against a large rock, where she collapsed unconscious. That is about enough, Merisiel decided, as she ran towards the huge figure and after a nimble leap grabbed on to its makeshift belt. Before the giant realized what was happening she already clung to its back and shoved her rapier deep into its flesh between the shoulder blades.
Sure you could try to pull of such stunts with the current rules but A) it's generally ridiculously hard due to the high CMDs of bigger creatures (both because of their generally high strength and size bonuses), and B) There is no benefit to doing so.
So here is my idea for some special moves, they aren't really combat maneuvers but they depend somewhat on combat maneuver stats:
Cling:
As a standard action or as part of a charge instead of making a regular attack, you can attempt to cling to a creature at least one size category larger than you. Make a CMB check (this counts as a grapple attempt for the purposes of any feats or abilities granting bonuses to grapple checks) or climb check against the creature's CMD. When making this check neither you nor the creature you try to cling to gain any size bonuses or penalties to CMB or CMD.
If you succeed, you cling to the creature. If not, the creature gets to make a free attempt to trip you.
While you are clinging to a creature, you need one hand to hold on to the creature but can use the other normally. When attacking a creature you cling to the creature is denied its Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) against your attacks. An attempt to cling to a creature provokes an attack of opportunity from that creature unless you have the improved grapple feat or a climb speed.
Location and climbing a creature:
Depending on your size and that of the creature you cling to, there are different locations you can cling to, these are as follows:
*Creature is one size category larger than you: - Upper body (this is the frontmost half on a non-bipedal creature); -Lower body (this is the hindmost half on a non-bipedal creature)
*Creature is two size categories larger than you: -Each limb (arm, leg, wing), -hips/lower torso, -upper torso (including head), -tail
*Creature is three or more size categories larger than you: -Each lower limb (forearm, lower leg, wing forearm etc), -Each upper limb (upper arm, thigh, wing upper arm etc), -hips/lower torso, -middle torso, -upper torso, -tail tip, -tail base
Not every creature has all of these anatomic features. Sometimes a creature has unusual proportions such as oversized or undersized limbs (for example a giant centipede has comparably short legs for a creature of its size), in that case treat that location as if it were on a creature of a different size (for example when clinging to a gargantuan giant centipede as a medium character don't treat its legs as separated upper and lower limbs but as one limb each; or on a huge giant centipede treat the legs as part of the torso location they are attached to)
When clinging to a creature normally you start off by clinging to a part that is close to the ground this is, depending on the size of the creature this is usually the lower body, a leg, the lower leg or sometimes a tail or tail tip. Sometimes you might find yourelf in a higher position from where you can directly cling to a higher up location directly.
Moving from one location to another requires a successful climb check (the DC equals the creature's CMD without its strength and size modifiers) and does not provoke attacks of opportunity. If the check failed you stay in the same location. With each action you can move from one location to the next adjacent location (for example from the lower limb, to the upper limb, or from the upper limb to the part of the torso, the limb is attached to etc.).
When you are clinging to a creature's head, all your successful attack rolls automatically threaten a critical hits (you must still roll to confirm them). When clinging to the upper torso of a creature that is two size categories larger than you, you may attempt to target the head specifically, when doing sou you recieve a -2 penalty to your attack roll but the threat range of your weapon increases by one (20 becomes 19-20, 19-20 becomes 18-20, etc).
Standing/sitting on a creature:
While in any torso location (unless the creature stands erect, in which case only the upper torso location is viable) you may attempt to stand or sit on the creature you have been clinging to, doing so frees up your hands allowing you to use both of them. Standing or sitting requires a successful acrobatics check (DC equals the creature's CMD without its strength and size modifiers). If the check fails you don't stand or sit up but instead keep holding on with your hand. While standing or sitting you do not gain your strength bonus to CMD when resisting attempts to shake you off, additionally when standing, you take another -2 penalty. While standing or sitting you have all your hands free and you can make for example attacks with two-handed weapons. Attack rolls while sitting however take a -2 penalty because you have neither the free range to swing your weapon that oyu would have while standing, nor the safety of holding on to something while riding the creature.
Shaking clinging creatures off:
If creatures are clinging to you, you may use a move action to attempt to shake one them off. Make a CMB check against the creature's CMD, without size modifiers to either and without Strength modifier to your CMB.
You can gain the following bonuses to your attempt to shake a creature off, if you fulfill the requirement:
-you use a standard action and a free prehensile limb (such as a hand) that the creature you want to shake off is not clinging to, to pull the creature off: both you and the clinging creature gain their size modifier to CMB/CMD, if any, and you gain your full STR modifier to your CMB roll.
-the creature is clinging to your tail, limb, tail base, head (unless your head is not movable independently from the body) or upper limb: You gain half your STR bonus (if any) to your CMB roll. You do not gain this bonus against a creature on your wing if you are flying.
-the creature is clinging to your tail tip or lower limb: you gain your full STR bonus (if any) to your CMB roll. You do not gain this bonus against a creature on your wing if you are flying.
If a creature is shaken off successfully, it falls to the ground, it may make an acrobatics check to reduce potential falling damage.
Attacking clinging creatures:
You can attack creatures clinging to you as if they were in a square threatened by you, however you may not attack a creature clinging to the body part that you are making the attack with. (For example you cannot attack a creature clinging to your right arm with your right-hand weapon.) The only exception is the head, you may always attempt up to one attack that is made with your head (like a gore or bite) against one creature clinging to your head each round.
You may attack creatures clinging to another creature but take a -4 penalty to attack rolls against such creatures.
A few related feats I thought of too:
Climbing blade
You lodge your weapon in the thick hide of the creature you're clinging to.
Benefit: You can use a light or one-handed piercing or slashing weapon to hold on to a creature you're clinging to instead of a free hand. If both weapons you wield are pirecing or slashing, you can attack with both of them as per the normal rules for fighting with two weapons.
Hitch
You wait for a creature to pass you to grab on and be taken along on a free ride.
prerequisites: Combat Reflexes and either Improved Grapple or climb 4 ranks.
Benefit: You may prepare an action to cling to a creature, the moment either enters your reach, or makes a melee attack against you.
----------------------
I know this is a huge wall of text and looks quite complex, but I think it would add some spice to a battle. It makes fights against big enemies more engaging and fights against tiny enemies more gribbly (imagine spiders crawling up your body), I tried to keep the body locations varied in benefits and disadvantages for the clinger, so people wouldnt just latch on to a dragons foot and attack the ankle while hanging from it instead of attacking the ankle from the ground, but have some incentve to make their way up to the body or even the head to put on some real hurt. I think this would also give melee characters a little more of a say in battles against large flying monsters (which particularly in the case of dragons should involve the whole party and not just the archer and wizard). I removed size and strength modifiers for many rolls mainly because those are the parts that make the whole deal basically impossible for most situations, but I also have a reason why it would make sense: Since the clinging creature is not actually trying to influence the larger creature as such, not pushing it or trying to hold it in place or anything, but simply trying to tough it and to stay in contact, while being taken anywhere the larger creature is going.
I would love to know what you think. Would it unbalance anything, is it too complex, or even too simple (in the sense that it is not taking something important into account)?
|
It looks pretty solid; complex enough to work but simple enough to understand. I've been looking for something like this forever to use in my games, ever since I played the game Shadow of The Colossus, and this looks perfect for that sort of thing. Hopefully you don't mind me borrowing it to use in my games (full credit given to you, of course). :)
Balance-wise, the only thing I think would pose an issue is the Climbing Blade feat, since you can attack with both weapons if you choose to. This combined with the automatic crit threaten on a creature's head would be rather nasty. Perhaps instead, the feat could require you to leave one weapon lodged in the creature's hide to hold on to, but for every round you stay clung to the creature in this way, the creature would suffer a small amount of bleed damage from the weapon. The feat should also have a prerequisite of some kind, even if it's just BAB +X or something similar.
Thanks :) Sure, go ahead. I post my ideas here both to get feedback and to share them with others.
I would consider tossing in a +2, limited, bonus to each feat. Climbing Blade could give a +2 vs being shaken off as long as a weapon is currently being used to Cling and Hitch could give a +2 bonus to initial Cling attempts when you have the readied action.
I've used something similar in my games, but having it laid out like that is very nice.
The auto threat at the head might be a bit much, especially if a creature's head is particularly armoured, a triceratops for instance, or just not that important to the creature, like a stone golem or some undead.
I don't argue against the idea, but alot of it is story-driven tactics. 4th edition tried to make combat more 'epic' by front-loading encounters with 'minions' and descriptive powers and abilities. the problem in that tactic is that a. you end up having to simply tell players which creature looks 'more powerful' and b. players usually grab the simplest/most powerful attacks and spam them.
I think they'd be good actions to add to the Combat Maneuver list, but intrinsically, a good gm should be able to adjudicate heroic actions like these through the existing system, without bloating the rules further.
I would consider tossing in a +2, limited, bonus to each feat. Climbing Blade could give a +2 vs being shaken off as long as a weapon is currently being used to Cling and Hitch could give a +2 bonus to initial Cling attempts when you have the readied action.
Yeah maybe that's right. I will think about it.
I've used something similar in my games, but having it laid out like that is very nice.
The auto threat at the head might be a bit much, especially if a creature's head is particularly armoured, a triceratops for instance, or just not that important to the creature, like a stone golem or some undead.
I guess you're right, but then I wanted to give people some incentive to try and reach the creature's vital parts. It would be both taxing and rewarding to do. On the one hand you have to succeed on a series of grapple and climb checks, provoke one attack of opportunity, and climb for a few rounds (meaning you also forego your Dex bonus to AC) but once you're there you get to deal a lot of damage.
I tend to just use a grapple check for these situations. For example my son wanted to jump onto the back of a giant spider the other day and pummel it to pieces. One quick grapple check later and I had him riding it's back.
Edit: Basicaly everything that you mention in your abilities above are things that I adjuticate on the fly using the existing grapple rules. I am not saying that there is anything wrong with your suggestion, they seem well thought out. I simply prefer to keep things simple and the existing mechanic works for me (with a bit of on the fly modification).
I see where you're coming from. A simple grapple check in my opinion wouldn't really convey the feel and on top of that, grappling a CR appropriate huge or even bigger creature by normal rules is a futile endeavour.
I don't argue against the idea, but alot of it is story-driven tactics. 4th edition tried to make combat more 'epic' by front-loading encounters with 'minions' and descriptive powers and abilities. the problem in that tactic is that a. you end up having to simply tell players which creature looks 'more powerful' and b. players usually grab the simplest/most powerful attacks and spam them.
I think they'd be good actions to add to the Combat Maneuver list, but intrinsically, a good gm should be able to adjudicate heroic actions like these through the existing system, without bloating the rules further.
Unlike you I don't find the Pathfinder rules bloated at all. It actually in my opinion is rather basic. The bulk of the books are monsters and character options. the actual rule system is just a few pages. And Ive played games with much more bloated systems.
I tried to make the whole mechanic so that players will have to decide, they take both advantages and disadvantages when clinging on to something that might be affecting them more or less depending on their build.
I guess this system in its idea is mainly for players who like the narrative part as much as the GM, who just want to go out and do awesome stuff. And this allows specifically martial characters to pull some really awesome stuff, which also helps them along higher level, when casters throw around fireballs, summon mighty demons or literally work miracles whereas the martial characters normally still only swing swords, and tip people over. With this they can do the really cool stuff that you only get to see in books, comics and movies.
Why does this remind me of Iron Heroes?
I don't know. I have no idea what Iron Heroes is.
I don't mean this to sound flippant at all but why not simplify it even more by using an Acrobatics check, with the DC based on the situation? I like quick resolution and we usually find ways to use the existing rules to resolve situations like the example you used.
dotbump
Pretty cool, but I wonder if it would come up often enough to be a standard manouver. This sounds similar to how I would run a skill challenge in 4e.
What happens if a character has a climb speed (i.e. using the ninja trick)? Normally they could climb much faster than normal, would they still be limited to moving between adjacent locations? If a creature is particularly large it seems like it would take longer to move around than if the creature were smaller.
I love it .... Really LOVE it.
All I can think of is Shadow of the Colossus. Hmm maybe combine this theme with the called shots rule in UC.
Acrobatics to jump, DEX or grapple check, followed by a climb check, then a called shot maybe with a bonus/penalty based on the situation, and then you got a nice brutal combat where a hero rides the dragon into the ground. (10 points to anyone who can name the obscure reference).
Great now I want to throw my players against a Titan and use this... thanks... just when my Video Game Inspired Situations had run out...
| 7 people marked this as a favorite. |
I stole this idea for my own house rules, and I came up with this:
Clinging is a combat maneuver for "grappling" any creature two or more size categories larger than yourself. You attempt a Clinging Maneuver using your CMB, Acrobatics, or Climb check, vs. the target's CMD. All modifiers that affect attack rolls affect this check. If you make the cling attempt by dropping down on the giant opponent from above, you gain a +10 to the initial cling check.
If you succeed on the initial check, you are clinging. You count as grappled, but your opponent does not and is not impeded in any way. You may attack a creature you are clinging to (as per the normal grappling rules) or you may attempt to move to a point where the target creature cannot attack you. This is something like "pinning"; you make another check on your turn at a +5. If you succeed at this check, you gain the "Hidden" condition vs. the target creature. (Hidden: +2 to attack rolls, no dex to AC, no line of site)
The creature may attack you normally if you are not hidden. Even if you are hidden, the creature can try to shake you off with a standard action. This forces another CMB, Acrobatics, or Climb check for the clinging character. Failure causes the character to be flung (as per the "Snatch" monster feat).