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Is this DM call fair?


Rules Questions

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A player in our group is multi-classing rogue and wizard.
The DM made the call that KN (any), means that for one skill point, he has one rank in ALL KN skills.

Now i know DM word is law at most tables....but this really seems unfair to the other players, who need to purchase ranks in KN skills individually.

What say you ?

Shadow Lodge

4 people marked this as a favorite.

Knowledge skills have to be purchased individually. He's objectively wrong according to the rules as written and intended.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

It's Knowledge (any), not Knowledge (all).

Andoran

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Is this all he's allowed? Will he have to start buying them individually if he wants more of a bonus than 4+Int mod?

If he just wants to have a smattering of all knowledges rather than deep knowledge, I don't see a problem.

If he thinks this is how the rules actually work, he's wrong.


Knowledge (any) doesn't even imply that...if it said "Knowledge (all)", then maybe I could see reading it that way, but even then it's a very long shot.


TriOmegaZero wrote:

Is this all he's allowed? Will he have to start buying them individually if he wants more of a bonus than 4+Int mod?

If he just wants to have a smattering of all knowledges rather than deep knowledge, I don't see a problem.

If he thinks this is how the rules actually work, he's wrong.

No. We are now at 8th level.

Everyone else has purchased ranks 1/1.
This character has spent 8 skill points in Kn (any), and has 8+3+ Int mod in all Kn skills.


No.


I really hope your DM is new.

Andoran

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
nighttree wrote:


No. We are now at 8th level.
Everyone else has purchased ranks 1/1.
This character has spent 8 skill points in Kn (any), and has 8+3+ Int mod in all Kn skills.

He needs to let every other player do this too then.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

1 person marked this as a favorite.

It's not RAW or RAI, but if it helps the party out, don't sweat it.

After all, the full BAB classes get proficiency in ALL martial weapons for free.... :-P

The wizard has to spend a ton of gold to learn ALL sorcerer/wizard spells....


This is not according to RAW and is a huge injustice to the rest of the players.


nighttree wrote:

No. We are now at 8th level.

Everyone else has purchased ranks 1/1.
This character has spent 8 skill points in Kn (any), and has 8+3+ Int mod in all Kn skills.

How hard did the player in question fight for this *insane* ruling? I would imagine it was a lot of whinging on and on about how 'the rulebook says' and assorted nonsense until the DM just gave in to shut him up.

Or the DM in question is incompetent and/or sleeping with the player in question in which case you might be screwed.

Either way that is the most laughably wrong interpretation of a rule's wording I have ever seen!


SmiloDan wrote:

It's not RAW or RAI, but if it helps the party out, don't sweat it.

After all, the full BAB classes get proficiency in ALL martial weapons for free.... :-P

The wizard has to spend a ton of gold to learn ALL sorcerer/wizard spells....

What you did there.

I saw it.

Grand Lodge

All he has to do is read the first paragraph of the Knowledge skill description to see that it's wrong.


Is anyone playing a Bard? I ask because this is particularly screwing them over. If not, then as long as the GM lets everyone else do it, just roll with it.

Cheliax

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

If that is how the GM wants to do it, then it is not a big deal. The problem is one player is getting special treatment. Either everyone should get it or no one should.


Pathfinder Modules Subscriber
SmiloDan wrote:

It's not RAW or RAI, but if it helps the party out, don't sweat it.

After all, the full BAB classes get proficiency in ALL martial weapons for free.... :-P

The wizard has to spend a ton of gold to learn ALL sorcerer/wizard spells....

"Trolololololol!" : P


1 person marked this as a favorite.
blahpers wrote:
SmiloDan wrote:

It's not RAW or RAI, but if it helps the party out, don't sweat it.

After all, the full BAB classes get proficiency in ALL martial weapons for free.... :-P

The wizard has to spend a ton of gold to learn ALL sorcerer/wizard spells....

"Trolololololol!" : P

Fixed.


Kn(Any) means you may choose any Knowledge skill.

Friend one: What flavour packet of Doritos would you like me to buy?
Friend two: Oh, any of them.

This means I can choose any of the flavours.

Friend one: What flavour packet of Doritos would you like me to buy?
Friend two: Oh, all of them.

This means I am now buying one of each.

All the Any means is that I can choose any KN skill to invest in, not that I get all.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Serisan wrote:
blahpers wrote:
SmiloDan wrote:

It's not RAW or RAI, but if it helps the party out, don't sweat it.

After all, the full BAB classes get proficiency in ALL martial weapons for free.... :-P

The wizard has to spend a ton of gold to learn ALL sorcerer/wizard spells....

"Trolololololol!" : P
Fixed.

Oh no!!!!!!! I didn't mean to get 9 feet tall and green, and not in the cool Bruce Banner way...


2 people marked this as a favorite.

I'm not clear on what the problem is. In my opinion, this is the sort of thing that is only a problem if someone makes is a problem. If it really bothers you that someone got an extra power and it makes you think the game is worse, tell the kid with the power and the GM outside of game day.

That said, if he got a magic genie in a bottle that only he could talk to and it answered questions with its knowledge, would that be a big deal? Do you guys overcome a lot of encounters or have your moments in the sun because you roll a knowledge skill?

In my opinion, those skills are just there to help flesh out the character. They aren't for hard mechanical benefit. The truth is, if you need to know something or should know something, you aren't going to have to roll for it. The GM will just tell you. The skill is extra. It reflects background.

Maybe the GM thinks that his character should be very knowledgeable and maybe it helps with immersion for them to reflect it on the character sheet. I think you should just let it go.


Dark_Mistress wrote:
If that is how the GM wants to do it, then it is not a big deal. The problem is one player is getting special treatment. Either everyone should get it or no one should.

This is only true when you have immaturity at the table. The people I play with don't care about this sort of thing. A couple of months ago I had a party where everyone was typical 4th level characters, but one of the PCs got an artifact that gave him a +8 to his STR, DR 10/- and the ability to fly at super sonic speeds. He could even fight while flying at low speeds, gaining +2 AC and Reflex. He was the only one with anything like that for like a month.

For several months before that, the sorcerer had the power to fly. No one else did. For months, she was able to fly super fast, perfectly, on top of all other normal powers.

You know what? No one complained. No a whisper. They just role played.

I can absolutely not sit at a table with people that do the fairs fair entitled, equal for all crap.


cranewings wrote:
Dark_Mistress wrote:
If that is how the GM wants to do it, then it is not a big deal. The problem is one player is getting special treatment. Either everyone should get it or no one should.

This is only true when you have immaturity at the table. The people I play with don't care about this sort of thing. A couple of months ago I had a party where everyone was typical 4th level characters, but one of the PCs got an artifact that gave him a +8 to his STR, DR 10/- and the ability to fly at super sonic speeds. He could even fight while flying at low speeds, gaining +2 AC and Reflex. He was the only one with anything like that for like a month.

For several months before that, the sorcerer had the power to fly. No one else did. For months, she was able to fly super fast, perfectly, on top of all other normal powers.

You know what? No one complained. No a whisper. They just role played.

I can absolutely not sit at a table with people that do the fairs fair entitled, equal for all crap.

And the rest of the characters walked uphill to AND from the dungeon! Through difficult terrain! And when they wanted to talk to each other, they TALKED! None of this Message cantrip or Telepathic Bond stuff you kids use!


Pathfinder Modules Subscriber

No, it isn't fair. That said, it only benefits the party, so why worry about it? Seems like a benefit to me.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
cranewings wrote:

I'm not clear on what the problem is. In my opinion, this is the sort of thing that is only a problem if someone makes is a problem. If it really bothers you that someone got an extra power and it makes you think the game is worse, tell the kid with the power and the GM outside of game day.

That said, if he got a magic genie in a bottle that only he could talk to and it answered questions with its knowledge, would that be a big deal? Do you guys overcome a lot of encounters or have your moments in the sun because you roll a knowledge skill?

In my opinion, those skills are just there to help flesh out the character. They aren't for hard mechanical benefit. The truth is, if you need to know something or should know something, you aren't going to have to roll for it. The GM will just tell you. The skill is extra. It reflects background.

Maybe the GM thinks that his character should be very knowledgeable and maybe it helps with immersion for them to reflect it on the character sheet. I think you should just let it go.

I cant figure out if this is trolling, or someone that just doesnt understand how the game works.

Shadow Lodge

2 people marked this as a favorite.
J3Carlisle wrote:
I cant figure out if this is trolling, or someone that just doesnt understand how the game works.

How the game works for many people is that all of the PCs cooperate. Most groups that I've been in haven't been involved in a PC vs PC arms race. If someone else got a cool power, we would all congratulate them and start thinking of ways to use it to the group's advantage, not immediately start whining that we couldn't do it too.


My current group is the first group I have come across who sort of gives a PC v PC arms race vibe - I've only ever cared about whether the group won or lost, whether I had 'a chance to go stand in the limelight' made about a pufteenth of difference to me; it was always about the big win.

If my GM was silly enough to hand the party Rogue 'Know (Walking Google)' then I'd be thrilled to bits and I would be working out how to mine that sucker for the party victory as hard as I could.

That said, it sure aint RAW.


Is it against the rules. Yes.

Is it unfair? Not really. Actually it helps your group.

Should you be complain about it? That is up to the your group. If you have other people in the party who have invested points in Knowledge skills and feel like they are being out-shined by the Wizard then sure. You might have a reason to complain.

Otherwise your having issue with the fact another party member got a nice new shiny toy and you didn't. I would personally ask the rest the group if they have an issue with it and if so direct the DM to this Forum or show him the rules in the book.


Multiclass into a class with KN and get the benefit if you're so jealous.


For those of you who see nothing wrong with one PC getting all the shine time, how long would you be okay with your PC being a wallflower in a game? I see this as no different from an Elminster game (where you are stuck watching the NPC be the hero).


4 people marked this as a favorite.

Seriously, all this 'quit being jealous' garbage is garbage: the GM has made an odious houserule here, and the OP is, imo, entirely in the right to be a little bent out of shape by it. HOW many Knowledge skills are there? X-1 extra skill ranks for wizards? REALLY? And people are just telling him (or her) to suck it up?

Don't get me wrong; I love wizards. But giving them ALL knowledge skills at the cost of one rank is (a) wrong and (b) freakin' ridiculous.


I didn't say "quit being jealous". I gave a solution.


ImperatorK wrote:
I didn't say "quit being jealous". I gave a solution.

Wasn't directed @ you in particular: you're not the sole perpetrator of the basic attitude citing jealousy. I'll grant you offered a solution. But the OP, imo, shouldn't HAVE to waste a level dip to play catchup to this affront against game balance. (NB: game balance is not my raison d'etre, but there are limits.)


I'm no perpetrator at all.


It's a silly ruling, but I wouldn't get upset about it, personally. Although I might ask to reallocate my skill points into Know (any) as well!

Cheliax

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Ask to put cross-class points into Knowledge(any), after all even if it isn't a class skill you can still put points into it, you just don't get the +3 for it being a class skill.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

2 people marked this as a favorite.

Play a half-elf bard, put ranks in Know (any), Skill Focus Know (any), and add bard's Bardic Knowledge to it too! Super-Genius!!!!

Shadow Lodge

I agree, it's a silly ruling. It'd be less silly if everyone else was allowed to reallocate their skill points, but overall, I just can't see getting worked up over it.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

What about Craft and Profession? Do they follow similar guidelines? Perform?


I think you guys are missing why this one individual has the gm bonus. It isn't a rules call based on rules interpretation or game balance. It is the gm stating that this one character happens to be super knowledgable and so has a gm granted ability or power from beyond the rules, and the OP just doesn't think that is fair.


nighttree wrote:

A player in our group is multi-classing rogue and wizard.

The DM made the call that KN (any), means that for one skill point, he has one rank in ALL KN skills.

Now i know DM word is law at most tables....but this really seems unfair to the other players, who need to purchase ranks in KN skills individually.

What say you ?

I say your GM needs to learn to read. Giving one player a bonus 9 skills points for every skill point spent on a knowledge skill is just stupid.

If he stands by this ruling, definately take a level of Rogue and abuse the crap out of this.

Andoran

cranewings wrote:
I think you guys are missing why this one individual has the gm bonus. It isn't a rules call based on rules interpretation or game balance. It is the gm stating that this one character happens to be super knowledgable and so has a gm granted ability or power from beyond the rules, and the OP just doesn't think that is fair.

Assuming this were true, the player is entirely right. It's blatantly unfair and shouldn't be allowed.

But I'm fankly not sure you're interpreting the situation correctly.


I read it as cranewings did also due to this statement-->".but this really seems unfair to the other players, who need to purchase ranks in KN skills individually."

If the GM is giving out custom power then everyone should get something. Now maybe the GM does plan to give something out later. The OP should talk to the GM to find out if everyone else gets something and if not they why.

If this is just blatant favoritism I would leave the table.


While I agree: not how the rules work. I am forced to wonder why? I could see a DM thinking that Wizards should just know tons of stuff. and they don't get many skills/level. Everyone assumes that a high Int will compensate for that, but maybe it doesn't....

Then I though, maybe the DM is just trying to piss off the other players, and I started to laugh. Sounds like something I do, just to remind players who is the DM. Maybe I'd eventually make up some secret origin so that it thematically makes sense. Every once in a while you got to mess with the players, just to keep them thinking.

It's not game braking, just irritating.


Deadmanwalking wrote:
cranewings wrote:
I think you guys are missing why this one individual has the gm bonus. It isn't a rules call based on rules interpretation or game balance. It is the gm stating that this one character happens to be super knowledgable and so has a gm granted ability or power from beyond the rules, and the OP just doesn't think that is fair.

Assuming this were true, the player is entirely right. It's blatantly unfair and shouldn't be allowed.

But I'm fankly not sure you're interpreting the situation correctly.

No. It should be allowed. I always play with people who are their to RP, not jealously lord over other characters powers.

Lots of RPGs create unbalanced characters. Nightbane, for example, it is normal for a pc group to have a superstrong superdiminsional being wielding magic, sword, and skills working with an ex-government agent with no martial arts and basic shooting skills. It is because the players are their to RP, not play fair is fair. The fair is fair climate is mostly a d&d environment thing, and for me, one of its least attractive features.

I think letting one player have something special, especially something as benign as skill ranks, is a good test to find out who the difficult people are at the table so you can ask them to leave. I'd have the OP out of my group so fast his head would spin.

Andoran

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

What if the player the OP is talking about starts lording his knowledge checks over the rest of the party?


Pretty much makes this feat pointless:...

Breadth of Experience
Although still young for your kind, you have a lifetime of knowledge and training.

Prerequisites: Dwarf, elf, or gnome; 100+ years old.

Benefit: You get a +2 bonus on all Knowledge and Profession skill checks, and can make checks with those skills untrained.


cranewings wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:
cranewings wrote:
I think you guys are missing why this one individual has the gm bonus. It isn't a rules call based on rules interpretation or game balance. It is the gm stating that this one character happens to be super knowledgable and so has a gm granted ability or power from beyond the rules, and the OP just doesn't think that is fair.

Assuming this were true, the player is entirely right. It's blatantly unfair and shouldn't be allowed.

But I'm fankly not sure you're interpreting the situation correctly.

No. It should be allowed. I always play with people who are their to RP, not jealously lord over other characters powers.

Lots of RPGs create unbalanced characters. Nightbane, for example, it is normal for a pc group to have a superstrong superdiminsional being wielding magic, sword, and skills working with an ex-government agent with no martial arts and basic shooting skills. It is because the players are their to RP, not play fair is fair. The fair is fair climate is mostly a d&d environment thing, and for me, one of its least attractive features.

I think letting one player have something special, especially something as benign as skill ranks, is a good test to find out who the difficult people are at the table so you can ask them to leave. I'd have the OP out of my group so fast his head would spin.

There is difference between jealousy and being concerned about an a GM being impartial.

The GM allowing the rule of cool to break a rule is one thing. One person and one person only, getting a permanent rules exception like this is entirely different. It is also possible that knowledge skills are very useful in that group's games. I know in my games I give a lot of information for high checks so it would be a significant advantage and amount of spotlight time if I were to allow that for only one player.

You can't really compare RPG across the board either, and say if one RPG handles nonbalanced characters well then they all can. As an example Mutant and Mastermind and Exalted both can have characters in the same group of vastly different power levels but still function. Pathfinder/D&D is not so friendly with such things. Mechanical disadvantage can affect RP greatly also due to how mechanical the game is in nature.
Example-->Fighter with ranks in diplomacy, taking Skill focus and Persuasion, and keeping up with the guy who did not dump charisma or even surpassing him. Yeah the GM can invoke rule 0, but mechanically that fighter has a good chance to be the party face so you can't pretend like RP'ing is all that matters.


I can see it from both perspectives. Its definatly not intended.

I probably wouldnt like it, but then I usually invest alot of points in whatever knowledge skills are available the class im playing. It would kinda make that pointless even though nothing says two people cant roll a knowledge check.

But then if no one takes issue with it then I can see it being ok too. I mean its not like it hurts the game in general.


Pathfinder Modules Subscriber
Alitan wrote:

Seriously, all this 'quit being jealous' garbage is garbage: the GM has made an odious houserule here, and the OP is, imo, entirely in the right to be a little bent out of shape by it. HOW many Knowledge skills are there? X-1 extra skill ranks for wizards? REALLY? And people are just telling him (or her) to suck it up?

Don't get me wrong; I love wizards. But giving them ALL knowledge skills at the cost of one rank is (a) wrong and (b) freakin' ridiculous.

Hmmmm....

...Nope, still don't see a problem. The GM didn't penalize the other PCs by giving one of them a boon.

Reread your post; you'll find that nowhere in there have you given a reason why this is "odious", "wrong", or "freakin' ridiculous". You simply asserted it.

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