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Fighter vs. Rogue or Monk


Advice

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Cheliax

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Tell us how this turns out when it happens, please, because it is going to be hilariously one-sided.


xn0o0cl3 wrote:
Tell us how this turns out when it happens, please, because it is going to be hilariously one-sided.

Will do! It should hopefully go down this weekend, I'll update then.


is the OP going to play against the GM?


Thomas Long 175 wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
To get things back on track though the GM is suggesting a damage dealing contest, not a "who will win if everyone plays smart" contest.

Damage dealing is easy though. Max monk strength a +7 take power attack use it or don't we can calculate later.

Monk will be 18+7+1(weapon focus)-4 (Power Attack)= 22 He gets 7 Attacks

so he can deal

22/22/17/17/12/12/7 at 2d10+15 or 26
26/26/21/21/17/17/12 at 2d10+7 or 18
Average AC for something CR appropriate is 37. (CR 20, 10 random monsters averaged)

Averaging it out with power attack you will deal 22.1 damage (you have a 25% hit chance on the first and 2nd attack and then 5% for every one after.This means if you look at each one individually (because they are individual rolls independent) you shouldn't land an average of even one attack per round.

Without Power Attack you will deal 29.7 damage average.

A fighter Maxing strength will have +7

His to hit will be +20+4+2+7-6(Power Attack) for +27 after Power Attack or +33 without it.

Damage
2d6+36 (10 STR + 18 Power Attack + 4 Greater weapon Special +4 Weapon Training)

so it's
27/22/17/12/7 for 2d6+36 or 43
33/28/23/18/13 for 2d6+18 or 25

Power Attack 43 damage/average.
w/o Power Attack 48.75

I intentionally left crit out of here because monks need to confirm their crits and will have lower crit values. Fighters auto crit and have their crit multiplier increase by 1. This will shift the imbalance more in favor of the fighter.

Please note I did these numbers for an average monster of equivalent cr which generally assumes you have magic items

I am just going by the OP, and you have provided the math. :)


As the others have stated: the fighter wins by a huge margin, nothing the monk or rogue can do, and even with magic, there is a counter to everything in the book that the fighter could take.

Fighter's name actually means something this edition: guy who fights, he's the best at it, and the few classes that can get near him, are situational, or they can only do it for so long because of spells and whatnot. Which even that's pretty much -ALL- paladin who gets a big pay off for having to deal with GMs who have a creepy obsession with making paladins lose their powers.


Dabbler wrote:
Crit range of 15-20, four attacks a round = 120% chance of a critical that is automatically confirmed - ironically the fighter has a better chance of landing a critical than the monk has of landing the quivering palm blow (95%).

I'm a little late, but I don't quite think math works like that.


Meophist wrote:
Dabbler wrote:
Crit range of 15-20, four attacks a round = 120% chance of a critical that is automatically confirmed - ironically the fighter has a better chance of landing a critical than the monk has of landing the quivering palm blow (95%).
I'm a little late, but I don't quite think math works like that.

It would be more precise to say that, on average, the fighter will get 1.2 critical hits per round.


ashern wrote:

So my buddy is playing in a new game and gets into a disagreement with the DM after the session. This DM swears that fighters suck in pathfinder and that rogues and monks are way better at dealing damage. Fast forward to the end of the discussion, the DM throws down a challenge.

Level 20 Fighter in a 1 on 1 fight versus a monk or a rogue. 20 point buy, Core book only....

And no magic items. (The DM claimed "they would all come out in the wash") Under those conditions, who do you think is better?

Christ thats no contest, fighter = best damage dealer without magic items a rogue would do NO sneak attack damage to him except if he went first.


Chengar Qordath wrote:
Meophist wrote:
Dabbler wrote:
Crit range of 15-20, four attacks a round = 120% chance of a critical that is automatically confirmed - ironically the fighter has a better chance of landing a critical than the monk has of landing the quivering palm blow (95%).
I'm a little late, but I don't quite think math works like that.
It would be more precise to say that, on average, the fighter will get 1.2 critical hits per round.

I'm a little rough on my math, but just thinking...

A crit range of 15-20 has a 6/20(or 3/10) chance of hitting that(15,16,17,18,19,20 is six numbers out of twenty sides of a dice). To put it in another way, the Fighter has a 14/20(or 7/10) chance of not getting a critical. Out of two attacks, the Fighter has a (7/10)^2, or 49/100 chance of not getting a critical. Out of four attacks, the Fighter has a (7/10)^4, or 2401/10000 or about 24/100 chance of not getting a critical. Get its reverse chance, and there's about a 3/4 chance of getting a critical at least once in a four-attack round.

...I think. I don't have much confidence in my calculations.


Meophist wrote:
Chengar Qordath wrote:
Meophist wrote:
Dabbler wrote:
Crit range of 15-20, four attacks a round = 120% chance of a critical that is automatically confirmed - ironically the fighter has a better chance of landing a critical than the monk has of landing the quivering palm blow (95%).
I'm a little late, but I don't quite think math works like that.
It would be more precise to say that, on average, the fighter will get 1.2 critical hits per round.

I'm a little rough on my math, but just thinking...

A crit range of 15-20 has a 6/20(or 3/10) chance of hitting that(15,16,17,18,19,20 is six numbers out of twenty sides of a dice). To put it in another way, the Fighter has a 14/20(or 7/10) chance of not getting a critical. Out of two attacks, the Fighter has a (7/10)^2, or 49/100 chance of not getting a critical. Out of four attacks, the Fighter has a (7/10)^4, or 2401/10000 or about 24/100 chance of not getting a critical. Get its reverse chance, and there's about a 3/4 chance of getting a critical at least once in a four-attack round.

...I think. I don't have much confidence in my calculations.

They are correct... If you accept the -4 penality for 2 rapiers and twf, you will have 1-0.7^7 ~ 92% crit in a round

Andoran

Thomas Long 175 wrote:
ciretose wrote:

Perhaps you are unfamiliar with this feat.. But it is moot since it isn't core.

However what is core is that stunning fist causes paralysis for 1d6+1 rounds at 20th level.

Yes and it was pointed out on page 1 you can't use that feat. furthermore we've pointed out the fighter has a significantly high chance of making not only that save, but saving several times in a row based on how low your odds of success are even if you stack wisdom

Great. The fighter will have to do it about 20 times. Good luck with that.

Andoran

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Provided the monk can get off 20 attacks, which isn't a certainty.


without magic items the fighter wins.

with magic item but core only, the fighter still wins, unless they all try to imitate wizard: at level 20 they all could (the monk has better saves so I guess this will benefit him the most).


Fighter gets lured into an infinite hole, fighter loses. These things can happen.

Andoran

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

What's an infinite hole, and is it core?


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Its a hole. Leading to infinity. I think infinity is core....


Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber

I love the monk and even I know a well-made fighter will win 99% of the time.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Thomas Long 175 wrote:


Yes and it was pointed out on page 1 you can't use that feat. furthermore we've pointed out the fighter has a significantly high chance of making not only that save, but saving several times in a row based on how low your odds of success are even if you stack wisdom

I also think you're forgetting that Improved Great Fortitude allows you to reroll 1 save per day, not every save.

That said, the I think we all agree that the inital premise is wrong, a Monk does not, out DPR a figther, and if the monk does win the fight, it wasn't due to the high DPR.

Cheliax

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Jodokai wrote:
Thomas Long 175 wrote:


Yes and it was pointed out on page 1 you can't use that feat. furthermore we've pointed out the fighter has a significantly high chance of making not only that save, but saving several times in a row based on how low your odds of success are even if you stack wisdom

I also think you're forgetting that Improved Great Fortitude allows you to reroll 1 save per day, not every save.

That said, the I think we all agree that the inital premise is wrong, a Monk does not, out DPR a figther, and if the monk does win the fight, it wasn't due to the high DPR.

It's a terrible test.

If the monk wins, it's because the fighter rolled a low save. That's luck, not average probability (which is what a lot of optimization is about).

On the other hand, some people are stupid enough to think such a test. So they need to be put down.


If I was building the fighter, I would just build archery, buy a horse (it's not magic, don't know why nobody suggested it), and then pelt the monk or rogue from range while the horse moves, either double or a run. Sure there's a huge penalty on those attacks, but it's not like the monk or rogue will be too hard to hit. You also get to negate most, if not all, of the monk's mobility advantage.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
ashern wrote:
I just wanted to say thanks to everybody for the thoughtful contributions. It looks like my original thought about the fighter is justified, but a monk could definitely pull out some tricks. It seems like everyone agrees rogues would be toast though.

The rogue can do some nasty things with surprise, or if has a flanking buddy, and he can always get through DR with all those sneak attack dice. Thing is, the rogue IS a support character in a fight and he never has to pretend otherwise. Flanking, he contributes a lot. Sniping or hitting from surprise, he does a lot. Solo, he's toast.

ashern wrote:
So, what if we allowed magic items but kept it core only, thoughts about who would do better?

No real change. The monk can get an astronomical AC, but the fighter's boost to his saves and his damage more than compensate for that. The fight may last longer, but it will have the same outcome.

ciretose wrote:
Thomas Long 175 wrote:
ciretose wrote:

Perhaps you are unfamiliar with this feat.. But it is moot since it isn't core.

However what is core is that stunning fist causes paralysis for 1d6+1 rounds at 20th level.

Yes and it was pointed out on page 1 you can't use that feat. furthermore we've pointed out the fighter has a significantly high chance of making not only that save, but saving several times in a row based on how low your odds of success are even if you stack wisdom
Great. The fighter will have to do it about 20 times. Good luck with that.

Three times, tops. On average, two.

The fighter strikes with a readied action for each spring attack the monk makes, and he hit first. On an average hit without Greater Vital Strike he's dishing out more than 1/3 of the monk's hit points.

So monk spring attacks, fighter uses readied action and hits him, monk bleeds, delivers quivering palm, 90%+ chance of saving. Monk runs away.

Monk attacks 2nd time, fighter uses readied action, monk bleeds more. Monk hits with stunning fist, fighter saves 75%-90% chance. Monk runs away.

Monk blows ki healing himself, fighter just waits.

Monk attacks 3rd time, fighter uses readied action, monk bleeds a lot more, hits with stunning fist, fighter saves with 75%-90% chance. Monk staggers away and heals again.

Monk attacks fourth time - at this point, according to the law of averages, the fighter crits. The monk is dead. Doesn't matter how many hit points he healed, a crit from the fighter will kill the monk in one hit, and he crits on 30% of hits with no need to confirm and +1 to the crit multiplier.

Andoran

TriOmegaZero wrote:
Provided the monk can get off 20 attacks, which isn't a certainty.

Let’s look at how I see it playing out and you tell me where I am wrong.

If the monk wins initiative, the monk spring attacks a quivering palm and gets behind cover. The monk can move at least 90 feet, and if he can get behind cover he is safe from range and charge attacks. Rinse, repeat with paralyzing attacks if quivering palm fails, doing 2d10 + str damage each attack with functionally adamantine weapons.

If the fighter wins initiative, they need to drop the monk in one round, presumably from range, with at least one attack auto missing, or I do the above. If he tries to ready an action to hit me when I spring, I wait him out. If I need to heal, I go ethereal, heal, then come back. I could also get shot on the run (Mobility is a monk feat) and plink away while hoping for crits until you stop readying. I’ve got 16 feats and get spring attack as a bonus feat, so I have plenty.

If there is no cover, I still can spring attack 90 feet, which is more than double the fighters movement, so same basic strategy, but invest more in Dex so I can get wind stance (I’ve got 16 feats) and go ethereal if I get in trouble and need to heal. I can take the bonus ki feat a few times to make sure I don’t run out.

But this is a horrible and pointless scenario.


ciretose wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
Provided the monk can get off 20 attacks, which isn't a certainty.

Let’s look at how I see it playing out and you tell me where I am wrong.

If the monk wins initiative, the monk spring attacks a quivering palm and gets behind cover. The monk can move at least 90 feet, and if he can get behind cover he is safe from range and charge attacks. Rinse, repeat with paralyzing attacks if quivering palm fails, doing 2d10 + str damage each attack with functionally adamantine weapons.

If the fighter wins initiative, they need to drop the monk in one round, presumably from range, with at least one attack auto missing, or I do the above. If he tries to ready an action to hit me when I spring, I wait him out. If I need to heal, I go ethereal, heal, then come back. I could also get shot on the run (Mobility is a monk feat) and plink away while hoping for crits until you stop readying. I’ve got 16 feats and get spring attack as a bonus feat, so I have plenty.

If there is no cover, I still can spring attack 90 feet, which is more than double the fighters movement, so same basic strategy, but invest more in Dex so I can get wind stance (I’ve got 16 feats) and go ethereal if I get in trouble and need to heal. I can take the bonus ki feat a few times to make sure I don’t run out.

But this is a horrible and pointless scenario.

I agree with you that those tactics are probably the best for the monk, but with on a 20 point buy, you either 1. aren't pumping wisdom, and will have an easy save DC, or 2. aren't pumping dex, and will have a worse initiative, or 3. are not pumping strength and will do little damage (assuming you finessed so as to still be able to hit). You just can't boost everything without stat items. That's the thing that I think in the end would hurt the monk the most.

However, I could be wrong. Build that monk out and see where the numbers fall.


ciretose wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
Provided the monk can get off 20 attacks, which isn't a certainty.

Let’s look at how I see it playing out and you tell me where I am wrong.

If the monk wins initiative, the monk spring attacks a quivering palm and gets behind cover. The monk can move at least 90 feet, and if he can get behind cover he is safe from range and charge attacks. Rinse, repeat with paralyzing attacks if quivering palm fails, doing 2d10 + str damage each attack with functionally adamantine weapons.

If the fighter wins initiative, they need to drop the monk in one round, presumably from range, with at least one attack auto missing, or I do the above. If he tries to ready an action to hit me when I spring, I wait him out. If I need to heal, I go ethereal, heal, then come back. I could also get shot on the run (Mobility is a monk feat) and plink away while hoping for crits until you stop readying. I’ve got 16 feats and get spring attack as a bonus feat, so I have plenty.

If there is no cover, I still can spring attack 90 feet, which is more than double the fighters movement, so same basic strategy, but invest more in Dex so I can get wind stance (I’ve got 16 feats) and go ethereal if I get in trouble and need to heal. I can take the bonus ki feat a few times to make sure I don’t run out.

But this is a horrible and pointless scenario.

You are assuming there is cover. The OP's question was not about who wins when brains are invovled are what might happen if this an actual fight with both sides having lost all of their gear. This is a pure damage dealing context.

If the goal is just to see who would win(ignoring the damage part) my money is on whoever the better player is.


wraithstrike wrote:


If the goal is just to see who would win(ignoring the damage part) my money is on whoever the better player is.

Completely concur. A smart player can usually make up for a slightly weaker character.

Andoran

I actually had it with or without cover.


ciretose wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:


If there is no cover, I still can spring attack 90 feet, which is more than double the fighters movement.

You can not do it every time. You start at 10 ft of the fighter then spring attack in the end of your turn you are at 80 ft of the fighter, how would you make a second spring attack and still stay away of the range of a charge?

Cheliax

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

While I am of the camp that the monk supporter(s) is fighting a losing battle here (obviously), I do have to wonder what the fighter's supposed to do if the monk decides to ignore him every time he readies an action?

Wait, answered my own question - Next turn, pull out the bow, full attack. Or if the monk was silly enough to stay within 60 feet, charge.

Cheliax

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Nicos wrote:
ciretose wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:


If there is no cover, I still can spring attack 90 feet, which is more than double the fighters movement.

You can not do it every time. You start at 10 ft of the fighter then spring attack in the end of your turn you are at 80 ft of the fighter, how would you make a second spring attack and still stay away of the range of a charge?

This is a good point. Unless you're dumping ki into your move speed, the only way to stay out of the fighter's charge range is to start your spring attack somewhere between 10 & 25 feet away from the fighter, which is not a place you can afford to be.


And every turn the Fighter readies an action to hit the spring attacking monk, he's able to move up 30 ft closer.

Unless this hypothetical battlefield is conveniently littered with cover spots all over both for the monk to duck behind and to block the path of the fighter's charge and ALSO has no sort of outer barriers to limit just how far "back" the monk's able to keep this up.

In any case, monk's ranged options suck and will do little vs. DR 5, and if he tries to blow his ki healing up, he'll run out pretty fast. Fighter could probably afford to just hang around readying till monk tries to bite.

Andoran

Monk has +60 movement. Not 60 total. Base movement is 90.

Andoran

Full attack with bow will have the 50 miss chance I noted above, in addition to the instant miss of one attack.

And the monk can still spring attack with the quivering palm or paralyisis.

Andoran

I only spring back 45 feet, or make sure there is no straight line to charge.


And the Fighter can charge 60. And if melee-based will definitely have Lunge (monk might, too, depends how you build it) and possibly a reach weapon. So monk needs to leave at least 70 ft of space if not more between himself and the fighter at the end of his spring attack to not just get charged. That 70 ft away leaves him w/ 20 to move up to the fighter in the first place, making use of this tactic round after round untenable barring generous amounts of obstructions on the battlefield but nothing also causing difficult terrain (dropping monk to speed 45 kills this tactic dead, even if fighter's also been cut to speed 15).

Also, Spring Attack has a little note you seem to have overlooked: "You cannot use this ability to attack a foe that is adjacent to you at the start of your turn."

Once the Fighter closes with the monk, no more spring attacking. He could try to withdraw (if he can go around a corner to avert a charge and make the whole thing pointless) or hit and tumble away (at half speed), but...he's pretty boned at that point.

Cheliax

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
ciretose wrote:
Monk has +60 movement. Not 60 total. Base movement is 90.

Right, so the farthest away from the fighter you can possibly at the beginning and end of your move is 45 feet - start your spring attack 45ft away, end it 45ft away. Still within the fighter's charging range. To be outside his charge range, you'll have to end your spring attack at 65ft away or higher, which means you'll have to start your attack from either 25, 20, 15, or 10 feet away from him. Not something you can keep pulling off.


If the monk's doing 45 + 45 but using obstacles to block a charge...AND the fighter's not just readying to hit him... lunge + reach weapon...he can just mov action and close that gap if he's prepared.

Or not play the monk's game. Use his move action to mve back 15 ft or so further from the monk and use his ready action to advance after the monk as he springs back. Monk will have only about as much movement left as fighter has, so he gets trapped if he tries to spring attack. He could just refuse to SA unless fighter is 45 ft or closer, and end up with a mexican standoff. Probably his best hope of surviving the fight, really.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Seems to me that Fighter wins most of the time but not all the time vs the monk. I'm guessing the fighter should win 75% of time in this contest.

Once you add in the other core books (APG, UM, and UC) the fight between the fighter and monk goes to more 50/50.

As for the rogue, there is nothing the rogue can do. The fighter will slaughter them. At best the rogue should just try to escape.


wow, so ciretose is still ignoring what the topic of the thread is: DPR not 'winning'? how cute.

Quote:

If the monk wins initiative, the monk spring attacks a quivering palm and gets behind cover. The monk can move at least 90 feet, and if he can get behind cover he is safe from range and charge attacks. Rinse, repeat with paralyzing attacks if quivering palm fails, doing 2d10 + str damage each attack with functionally adamantine weapons.

If the fighter wins initiative, they need to drop the monk in one round, presumably from range, with at least one attack auto missing, or I do the above.

The fighter doesn't need to drop the monk in one round.

(though he has a higher chance of doing so vs. the monk doing so against the fighter)
Ready Action works just great against Spring Attack tactics. If you use Greater Trip, their Spring Attack Full Round Action is kind of over at that point anyway, regardless, you are interrupting their actions with your Readied Action.

Effectively, to try to compete in this game, the monk will need STR and WIS maxed, no room for DEX, so they will not really benefit much in the AC department from WIS to AC (it's just replacing DEX) and their INIT will be lower than a Fighter who is maxing STR and DEX/CON equally. If the Monk goes DEX instead of STR, the Fighter can still hit their AC just fine, and all they've done is be able to spend a fit to have the same attack bonus on melee and a decent attack bonus on archery (which no class abilit works with), while gimping actual damage (i.e. the purpose of this contest as much as ciretose wants to ignore that).

Besides the above two posters' points that even 90' speed doesn't allow infinitely repeatable spring attack outside of the fighters' charge range (to end outside requires starting WELL inside range, or vice versa), the fighter has other options: running to catch up with monk (putting them adjacent), or using a horse (as already mentioned) which will even let them get an attack off. as also already mentioned, just riding around on a horse full attacking with a bow is a decent strategy as well, the number of attacks mean a high chance of critting, which quickly leads to monk death. negating 1 attack per round on the mount is child's play.

Andoran

Schrodinger's fighter is wearing light armor and using a reach weapon now?

A single object prevents charging. Withdrawing is fairly easy when you can dimension door or go etherial. Or just burn a ki for the extra 20 feet they may need in a given round. I will have 10 ki + wisdom + extra ki from feats if this is all I am trying to do.

I am just doing this until the quivering palm or paralyisis works in a given round.

It is cheesy, but it works.


StreamOfTheSky wrote:
Probably his best hope of surviving the fight, really.

But not a good way to win a DPR contest.


ciretose wrote:
Schrodinger's fighter is wearing light armor and using a reach weapon now?

que?

ciretose wrote:
A single object prevents charging. Withdrawing is fairly easy when you can dimension door or go etherial. Or just burn a ki for the extra 20 feet they may need in a given round. I will have 10 ki + wisdom + extra ki from feats if this is all I am trying to do.

But the Fighter isn't wasting any resources while dealing with this tactic.

ciretose wrote:
I am just doing this until the quivering palm or paralyisis works in a given round.

And every quivering palm/etc is being met by a Readied Attack with a higher chance of working.

Yes, both sides have SOME chance of 'winning', but you haven't shown why the Monks' is HIGHER.
Nor anything relevant to the actual terms of the debate, DPR...

Andoran

Actually the op was a 1 on 1 contest. The dm did say that he believed. The monk and rouge. Coukd out dpr, but that wasn't the challenge as I read it.

I'm on a horse.


ciretose wrote:

Schrodinger's fighter is wearing light armor and using a reach weapon now?

A single object prevents charging. Withdrawing is fairly easy when you can dimension door or go etherial. Or just burn a ki for the extra 20 feet they may need in a given round. I will have 10 ki + wisdom + extra ki from feats if this is all I am trying to do.

I am just doing this until the quivering palm or paralyisis works in a given round.

It is cheesy, but it works.

I mentioned the reach weapon idea a long time ago. I also mentioned the fighter taking improved unarmed strike in case he were to get disarmed.


ciretose wrote:

Full attack with bow will have the 50 miss chance I noted above, in addition to the instant miss of one attack.

And the monk can still spring attack with the quivering palm or paralyisis.

Wind stance only gives you 20% concealment. Lightning stance is the one with 50% concealment, but it requires you to double move or withdraw, which means no attacks that round.

Also note that "Schrodinger's fighter" is wearing heavy armor, not light armor. He gets his full movement speed and a very high max dex bonus in heavy armor thanks to armor training.

Another thing to consider. What if the fighter uses a net or tanglefoot bags?


wraithstrike wrote:


I mentioned the reach weapon idea a long time ago. I also mentioned the fighter taking improved unarmed strike in case he were to get disarmed.

just buy spikes for the armor, you save a feat.


ciretose wrote:


If he tries to ready an action to hit me when I spring, I wait him out.

How does one wait out an opponent in such a scenario exactly?


Nicos wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:


I mentioned the reach weapon idea a long time ago. I also mentioned the fighter taking improved unarmed strike in case he were to get disarmed.

just buy spikes for the armor, you save a feat.

Or just rely on the Fighter's capstone, which, aside from the other benefits stated in this thread, also prevents the fighter from being disarmed.


ashern wrote:


I wish I was trolling, I really do. This DM is basing a fighter's ability to do damage off of a 11th level dwarf fighter that uses a shield and axe and does 1d8 +11 per hit. He aparently thinks that all fighters are that effective.

Also, my money would be on the 2 vs 1, especially if the monk/rogue are built to disarm/lock down the fighter.

Honestly it all depends on the builds.

A Dwarf Fighter will have a movement of 20, period.

A level 20 monk gains +60 movement. So to be out of the range of the fighter, all the monk has to do is pull off a Dodge Mobility Spring attack combo. The monk literally needs to have 50 feet of movement to win. The Monk's stunning fist ability can permanently blind an opponent if he fails the save. Quivering palm is an instant death hit.
Hell Stunning fist can paralyze a target for 1d6 rounds.

Dodge Mobility Spring attack + Stunning fist

Rinse repeat until the target fails the save, then coup de grace.


alientude wrote:
Nicos wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:


I mentioned the reach weapon idea a long time ago. I also mentioned the fighter taking improved unarmed strike in case he were to get disarmed.

just buy spikes for the armor, you save a feat.
Or just rely on the Fighter's capstone, which, aside from the other benefits stated in this thread, also prevents the fighter from being disarmed.

If the monk try to grapple then the fighter uses the spikes.


xn0o0cl3 wrote:
ciretose wrote:
Monk has +60 movement. Not 60 total. Base movement is 90.
Right, so the farthest away from the fighter you can possibly at the beginning and end of your move is 45 feet - start your spring attack 45ft away, end it 45ft away. Still within the fighter's charging range. To be outside his charge range, you'll have to end your spring attack at 65ft away or higher, which means you'll have to start your attack from either 25, 20, 15, or 10 feet away from him. Not something you can keep pulling off.

The DM statted the fighter as a Dwarf. Last I checked Dwarves move 20 feet per round.

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