Are they really that good? I can't find a guide on them, is there one?
I don't like the idea of playing one as a Mr. Hyde, so no barbarian multiclass.
I imagine the PC as a kind of chef-gourmet, going around with kitchen knives slicing things to eat them, making drugs (extracts or mutagens slightly re-flavored) and poisons from them. I don't really know how to build it, except that as said I want to stay clear from barbarian (I'm playing one in another game and I'd like the vivisectionist to be a lucid killer, not a mindless death machine).
I'd like to be able to to utility stuff (which should not be so difficult) but mainly be a melee damage dealer (until now I don't know what to favor btw STR and DEX).
The PC should be relevant between levels 4-12. I've no other info about party composition since this is just a backup character in case of a nwe campaign starting (given our style of play there will probably be another arcane caster and a secondary healer plus something else, probably no dedicated buffer as none of us like playing one).
So, any advice?
Vivisectionists get sneak attacks... so I guess a lot of rogue stuff could be nice for you.
I guess going the weapon finesse+two-weapon route seems logical for any sneak-attacker?
If you want to emphasize the kitchen knife chef (are you gonna call him Steven Seagal? 8-) ) you could consider a dip into Ninja? That way you can buy rogue talents with feats (if you have the room for them).
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For the most part, follow the Rogue guides - you don't get Rogue talents, trapfinding, or evasion, but most of those are defense or out-of-combat; when it comes to offense, you have everything the rogue has and more. Personally, I like Dex-based builds, especially as they lend themselves to stealth more than strength-based builds.
Something to note is that if you choose the discovery Feral Mutagen, you get 3 attacks on a full attack while under the effects of mutagen - something you typically wouldn't get until 15th level. Feel free to combine this with the Beastmorph archteype if you don't mind losing poison (which you shouldn't - it's terrible for PCs, for the most part). Get an Agile Amulet of Mighty Fists (only 5000) and at 5th level you could be hitting for 11d6 + 1d8 + 3*your dex bonus, which could easily be 7 or more with your mutagen. Seems good.
Keep in mind that you also have access to a whole array of self-buffing extracts, and probably a handy-dandy assortment of alchemical items. (I love tanglefoot bags, personally.) At first level, you can buff your AC with Shield or improve your to-hit, dex, AC, and stealth with Reduce Person. At fourth level, you can buff your Dex or Strength via Cat's Grace or Bull's Strength, turn invisible, levitate, climb up walls, or vomit swarms. At seventh level, you can burrow, fly, give yourself a 50% miss chance, give yourself Haste... And it only gets better from there.
BTW, if you do Vivisectionist, your Dex will be more important than your Int. An int of 13 or 14 should be fine to start off with - you can improve it later with magic items to be able to prepare high-level extracts.
together with beastmorph they'll get very nasty
a few things to consider, eternal potion of improved invisibility (from a summoner)
Sap master
beastmorph gains pounce
those are just 3 good ideas, I do not recommend using all 3 together, it's too much like save or death spells.
But yes, vivisectionist are good, bombs are safer damage, but bombs are a resource you have to manage, sneak attacks are an opportunity you have to take advantage of, your choice. Both are good, both can be too good.
brace yourself.
flanking toad of doom is coming.
if you want to flank, you can always take preservationist and after you've collected them all, throw your arsenal of pokemons. Either your ennemy wastes an action to kill them, or you've got your flanking buddy.
And I heard summons were useful for other stuff too.
Can't beastmorph with it though, and sap master needs flat footedness (which is damn hard to come by).
Vivvisectionists are an alright class. They get overhyped on these boards because they outdo the rogue so well, but that's more the fault of rogue sucking mightily than anything else.
I haven't gotten a chance to play one yet, but they are hypothetically my favorite class in PF, since 3E rogue was my favorite class, and I have an affinity for playing creepy mutated freakshow characters (most commonly played rogue was a gender ambiguous changeling that goes into warshaper and sprouts a tail, horns, tentacle out of the mouth, or whatever else s/he wanted; played variations of that several times, loved it).
Definitely a fun, cool, competent class that is fairly well balanced. Not as powerful as the full (9th-level casting) spellcasters or summoner, but still strong enough to enjoy playing in nearly any group.
So if I get it right the favored route is going for natural attacks with high DEX and agile AOMF? As for the kitchen knives, daggers would be alright, so would be kukris, I didn't mean to suggest improvised weapons.
What about buffs? what are the staples?
I'll look into beastmorph later but I fear this is not what I'm looking for (no mr. Hyde), the same apply to sap master (which I knew is probably the most effective route but which I don't like for flavor)
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If by buffs you mean extracts/spells, try to get monstrous physique I as an extract. By the time you can afford it, get yourself a wand of monstrous physique I at that. These are probably the monstrous humanoids that you'd want to take the form of:
Each grant 4-5 natural attacks (Popobala's bite is 2D6!!), and since Monstrous Physique doesn't absorb your armor, you don't lose out on Total AC like most polymorph spells may do to characters that can wear armor. Getting a full-attack with sneak attack in one of these forms will net you a TON of damage, all by a paltry level 7.
Checked out beastmorph, it's really cool.
For monstrous physique, it may sond silly but I can't see where it does say that you get the creatures' natural attacks. Also, if the forms grants other benefits aside from those from feral mutagen, do you gain all benefits from both sources?
Other buffs? I just discovered that alchemists get neither greater magic weapon nor greater magic fang, such a pity!
As for discoveries, are there any useful for a vivisectionist? Right now I see only feral mutagen and combine extracts as useful.
With Beastmorph, you don't actually take the form of the creature. You just get to pick and choose which abilities you'd like, and they don't have to be from a creature that gets both. You do not actually use beast shape, just choose options from it.
Just because you cant make an extract of greater magic fang doesnt mean u cant buy a +5 gmf potion and use it with alchemical allocation as well as using amplify elixur or extend potion discovery to extend it...
Personally if I was to do a vivisectionist I probably would want to stick to natural weapons. Getting three attacks with sneak attack damage and maximum attack bonus plus strength and power attack (et al) should be enough to keep your damage where you want.
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I was skeptical of Monstrous Physique granting natural attacks, too, but it says so in the Polymorph school descriptor (look under Transmutation).
There are a few pretty handy discoveries for a vivisectionist. Spontaneous Healing essentially gives you a ton more HP, as long as you don't get hit by something that takes you out in one shot; Lingering Spirit can help with that. Tumor Familiar essentially gives you Alertness, plus your skill focus or save-improving-feat of choice. Also, I think oozes can flank, so Bottled Ooze could be quite nice. And Wings, of course, are just dandy to have - you get a free Fly for minutes = to your caster level each day.
If you want to go with daggers, you could get 2 extra arms (Vestigial Arm Discovery) and take the river rat trait (+1 dmg with daggers, it's a regional trait).
Now sure if that's too hulk for you, imho it's not?
Multi-weapon-fighting sneak-attacks with 4 arms sounds nasty. 8-)
Except Vestigial Arms dont give u extra attacks..
Ok someone needs to explain this to me...
The alchemist gains a new arm (left or right) on his torso. The arm is fully under his control and cannot be concealed except with magic or bulky clothing. The arm does not give the alchemist any extra attacks or actions per round, though the arm can wield a weapon and make attacks as part of the alchemist's attack routine (using two-weapon fighting). The arm can manipulate or hold items as well as the alchemist's original arms (for example, allowing the alchemist to use one hand to wield a weapon, another hand to hold a potion, and the third hand to throw a bomb). The arm has its own “hand” and “ring” magic item slots (though the alchemist can still only wear two rings and two hand magic items at a time). An alchemist may take this discovery up to two times.
Doesn't the first bold contradict the second bold?
Or would it allow you to dual-wield twohanded weapons? could be neat too...?
does not contradict, if you got 4 attacks, you can attack with 4 different weapons or 4 times with the same.
Yes you can dual-wield two handed weapons, probably more flashy than neat. Vivisectionist doesn't get its major damage from the weapon, and two-handed weapons are normally not agile.
But you can dualweld two-handed guns for the first round of combat when they are flat-footed and guns are bludgeoning and nonlethal when merciful is added.
Nothing says hello like a double-barreled pistol with sap master shot point blank in your face.
One of the nastiest DPR build i have come up with makes use of the Vivisectionist
At level 10, ranger 2/vivisectionist 8
The ranger gives you power attack without needing a 13 strength and profiency with a scimitar. Take the trapper ranger to get trapfinding.
15 point buy half elf
Str 10
Dex 15 + 1(level) + 2(racial) +4(belt) +4 mutagen = 26
Con 13 + 1(level) = 14
Int 14
Wis 12
Chr 8
Extract of heroism give you a +2 to hit and +2 to all saves
+2 scimitar + Weapon finesse + dervish dance gives you 2 attacks at a +20/+15 for ad6 + 10 damage a swing
Feral Mutagen give you a claw/claw/bite. Get a Agile Amulet of Mighty Fists. Multiatack will drop the penalty for using these attacks with a scimitar down to -2.
Extra Limb discovery and use it to wield your scimitar to keep both of your claws free for attacks.
This build can put out 50-70 damage against AC 24 with a full attack. When flanking against a favored enemy, the damage goes up to around 140 a round.
With celestial armor and a barkskin extract, you will be looking at an AC of around 35 with around 80 hp. More than enough to survive frontline combat.
On top of this you have access to things like extracts of invisibility, which are great for scouting.
The biggest problem with this build is the will save. Even with Iron Will, Indomidable Faith, Heroism, and a cloak of resistance +2, it only has a will save of +9 at level 10.
This character can easily replace a rogue.
Ok someone needs to explain this to me...
The alchemist gains a new arm (left or right) on his torso. The arm is fully under his control and cannot be concealed except with magic or bulky clothing. The arm does not give the alchemist any extra attacks or actions per round, though the arm can wield a weapon and make attacks as part of the alchemist's attack routine (using two-weapon fighting). The arm can manipulate or hold items as well as the alchemist's original arms (for example, allowing the alchemist to use one hand to wield a weapon, another hand to hold a potion, and the third hand to throw a bomb). The arm has its own “hand” and “ring” magic item slots (though the alchemist can still only wear two rings and two hand magic items at a time). An alchemist may take this discovery up to two times.Doesn't the first bold contradict the second bold?
Or would it allow you to dual-wield twohanded weapons? could be neat too...?
This seems to be inconsistent with how other multi-armed species operate. As far as I know, they all get multiple attacks.
Except Vestigial Arms dont give u extra attacks..
- Take Vestigial Arm Twice for two arms.
- Fight with a light weapon or one handed weapon in each vestigial arm as two weapon fighting.
- Use Feral mutagen to get claw natural attacks on two original arms.
- Make iterative weapon attacks with vestigial arms and two natural attacks with claws as secondary attacks at -5.
- Take Multi-Attack to reduce feral natural secondary attack penalty from -5 to -2.
Would this be legal?
First of all 50-70 damage at 10th for a full attack doesnt qualify as "nasty", it qualifies as slightly above average at best. Second the extra limb discovery doesnt give you extra attacks it only allows you to use the arms as part of your regular attack sequence or to hold things i suppose. So for your example you wouldnt get your claw/claw/bite and your 2 scimitar attacks in the same round... Only 1 or the other.
I would like this clarified by faq or somthing as it seems to condradict itself alot..
First of all 50-70 damage at 10th for a full attack doesnt qualify as "nasty", it qualifies as slightly above average at best. Second the extra limb discovery doesnt give you extra attacks it only allows you to use the arms as part of your regular attack sequence or to hold things i suppose. So for your example you wouldnt get your claw/claw/bite and your 2 scimitar attacks in the same round... Only 1 or the other.
No, 50-70 is normal damage for most melee classes. So in a straight up toe to toe fight you are matching a fighter in damage while having about 20 less hp and 5 more AC.
It is the 140 damage per round with a flank and favored enemy bonus that is painful. Even without the FE bonus you are looking at 120-130 damage.
You can combine your normal iterative attacks with natural attacks, but all natural attacks count as secondary attacks and thus are at a -5 to hit. The multiattack feat drops the penalty for secondary attacks to -2.
So without the vestigial arm, you can make 2 scimitar attacks at your normal to hit, 1 claw attack at -5(-2 with MA), and 1 bite at -5(-2 with MA). All the vestigial arm does is allow you to make a second claw attack since you are wielding the scimitar in the vestigial arm.
The only other hitch is that multiattack is a monster feat, so it is under the DM's discretion if the player is allowed to take it or not.
Except Vestigial Arms dont give u extra attacks..
Would this be legal?- Take Vestigial Arm Twice for two arms.
- Fight with a light weapon or one handed weapon in each vestigial arm as two weapon fighting.
- Use Feral mutagen to get claw natural attacks on two original arms.
- Make iterative weapon attacks with vestigial arms and two natural attacks with claws as secondary attacks at -5.
- Take Multi-Attack to reduce feral natural secondary attack penalty from -5 to -2.
Yes, it is legal. The vestigial arms do not give you attacks, but can wield weapons normally. Your regular arms give you claw attacks if you are not wielding a weapon in that hand.
Also, feral mutagen gives you a bite attack. So at level 10 you are looking at +8 BAB +8(dex) +2(heroism) = +18 to hit base. 2 attacks with each light weapon at +17/+12, 2 claw attacks at +16, and 1 bite attack at +16. If you take the 2 levels of ranger, you are looking at +2 hit/damage on each attack against favored enemies, and +2 to hit and 4d6 damage per attack when flanking.
The main reason I go scimitar/dervish dance over TWF is feat cost. Between multiattack, weapon finesse, TWF, ITWF, and Iron Will, you are already at 5 feats. I prefer the dervish dance route because it requires one less feat, and doesn't require agile weapons to be effective. You don't lose very much damage because you go from two +1 agile kukris to a one +3 scimitar. The extra +2 to hit and +3 damage on the scimitar makes up for the loss of 2 attacks.
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Except Vestigial Arms dont give u extra attacks..
Would this be legal?- Take Vestigial Arm Twice for two arms.
- Fight with a light weapon or one handed weapon in each vestigial arm as two weapon fighting.
- Use Feral mutagen to get claw natural attacks on two original arms.
- Make iterative weapon attacks with vestigial arms and two natural attacks with claws as secondary attacks at -5.
- Take Multi-Attack to reduce feral natural secondary attack penalty from -5 to -2.
Looks quite right. Now, the question would be: how much money do you have at your disposal? If you want to remain versatile, I suggest focusing on DEX, getting an Agile Amulet of Mighty Fists, a projectile ranged weapon (bow, crossbow, sling, gun) to hold in the vestigial arms, and improved unarmed strike through kicking. This allows you to make ranged or melee(+natural weapons) full-attacks without having to switch/drop weapons in combat. This also allows you to always threaten creatures in melee range of you. You also alway have two hands (claws) free to grab what you may need from your items.
However, feral mutagen alone will not allow you to get multi-attack, if it helps at all. Some GMs may require that the natural weapons at your disposal be permanent, not granted by a temporary ability. You would also need 3 natural attacks. If you're willing to be a Half-orc and splash 2 levels of a Natural Weapons style Ranger, you could get a permanent natural bite attack and two natural claw attacks.
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Except Vestigial Arms dont give u extra attacks..
Would this be legal?- Take Vestigial Arm Twice for two arms.
- Fight with a light weapon or one handed weapon in each vestigial arm as two weapon fighting.
- Use Feral mutagen to get claw natural attacks on two original arms.
- Make iterative weapon attacks with vestigial arms and two natural attacks with claws as secondary attacks at -5.
- Take Multi-Attack to reduce feral natural secondary attack penalty from -5 to -2.
Yes, it is legal. The vestigial arms do not give you attacks, but can wield weapons normally. Your regular arms give you claw attacks if you are not wielding a weapon in that hand.
Also, feral mutagen gives you a bite attack. So at level 10 you are looking at +8 BAB +8(dex) +2(heroism) = +18 to hit base. 2 attacks with each light weapon at +17/+12, 2 claw attacks at +16, and 1 bite attack at +16. If you take the 2 levels of ranger, you are looking at +2 hit/damage on each attack against favored enemies, and +2 to hit and 4d6 damage per attack when flanking.
The main reason I go scimitar/dervish dance over TWF is feat cost. Between multiattack, weapon finesse, TWF, ITWF, and Iron Will, you are already at 5 feats. I prefer the dervish dance route because it requires one less feat, and doesn't require agile weapons to be effective. You don't lose very much damage because you go from two +1 agile kukris to a one +3 scimitar. The extra +2 to hit and +3 damage on the scimitar makes up for the loss of 2 attacks.
One important fact that you are missing is that all of your natural attacks are going to be doing significantly less damage then the scimitar.
Remember secondary attacks are at -5 to hit (-2 with multiattack) AND 1/2 strength to damage (or 1/2 Dex to damage for agile) and 1/2 power attack bonus as well.It's not that big a deal at high levels but before 10th level (and if you aren't getting your Sneak Attacks off) can really make a difference on your damage output.
edit: Agile weapon lets you use your Dex bonus as your strength bonus for damage. Secondary attacks penalize that bonus the same.
Looks quite right. Now, the question would be: how much money do you have at your disposal? If you want to remain versatile, I suggest focusing on DEX, getting an Agile Amulet of Mighty Fists, a projectile ranged weapon (bow, crossbow, sling, gun) to hold in the vestigial arms, and improved unarmed strike through kicking. This allows you to make ranged or melee(+natural weapons) full-attacks without having to switch/drop weapons in combat. This also allows you to always threaten creatures in melee range of you. You also alway have two hands (claws) free to grab what you may need from your items.
One of the nice things about the Vivisectionist is that you can avoid the cost of some magic items via extracts. Heroism and Barkskin both have the 10 min/level durations which is the same as your mutagen.
My equipment list to aim for at level 10 is
Celestial Armor(22.4k)
Cloak of Resist +2(4k)
+2 scimitar(8.3k)
Ring of Protection +1(2k)
Agile Amulet of Might Fists(5k)
Handy Haversack(2.2k)
Belt of Dexterity +4(16k)
That comes to just under 60k, a level 10 character should have around 62k. Grab a +1 bow for those times when you absolutely have to use ranged attacks.
That will get you a 34 AC with a barkskin extract active. Use a shield extract to get up to a 38 AC for critical fights.
Most of a rogue's (and vivisectionnist's) damage doesn't come from the weapon's size... but rather the sneak attacks?
I thought the more sneak attacks you get, the better?
7th level vivisectionnist gives you 4th level spells/potions and greater invisibility... as a start. You get plenty more to play around with to get those sneak attacks in?
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Most of a rogue's (and vivisectionnist's) damage doesn't come from the weapon's size... but rather the sneak attacks?
I thought the more sneak attacks you get, the better?7th level vivisectionnist gives you 4th level spells/potions and greater invisibility... as a start. You get plenty more to play around with to get those sneak attacks in?
actually from a DPR standpoint a rogue using a single 2handed weapon out does a a TWF rogue
actually from a DPR standpoint a rogue using a single 2handed weapon out does a a TWF rogue
and a twohanded rogue vs a 4weapon/claw rogue?
One important fact that you are missing is that all of your natural attacks are going to be doing significantly less damage then the scimitar.
Remember secondary attacks are at -5 to hit (-2 with multiattack) AND 1/2 strength to damage (or 1/2 Dex to damage for agile) and 1/2 power attack bonus as well.
It's not that big a deal at high levels but before 10th level (and if you aren't getting your Sneak Attacks off) can really make a difference on your damage output.
edit: Agile weapon lets you use your Dex bonus as your strength bonus for damage. Secondary attacks penalize that bonus the same.
Actually, I do account for that. That is why I strongly prefer the dervish dance route. It gives you 2 attacks which do your full dexterity and power attack bonus to damage. The TWF route gives you 2 off hand attack at half dexterity and half power attack at the cost of a -2 to hit on all attacks due to TWF, with an additional -2 to hit and -3 damage on the weapon attacks because you are using 2 +1 agile kukri instead of 1 +3 scimitar. Also, the TWF route requires you burn 2 discoveries on vestigial arms.
Great, now you made me go a recalculate everything rather than trying to quote from memory the results of numbers I crunched 2+ months ago.
Dervish Dance with +3 scimitar, Vestigial Arm, Agile Amulet of Mighty fists
Normal - 39.3 damage per round
Power Attacking - 50.8 damage per round
PA + favored enemy - 67.2 damage per round
PA + FE + flanking - 136.2 damage per round
2 +1 Agile Kukri, 2 vestigial arms, two weapon fighting, Agile Amulet of Mighty Fists
Normal - 39.4 damage per round
Power Attacking - 44.2 damage per round
PA + favored enemy - 63.3 damage per round
PA + FE + flanking - 139.2 damage per round
So at the low end, the TWF route nets you a whopping .1 DPR. At the high end you gain 3 DPR, at the cost of 1 extra feat and 1 extra discovery.
Most of a rogue's (and vivisectionnist's) damage doesn't come from the weapon's size... but rather the sneak attacks?
I thought the more sneak attacks you get, the better?7th level vivisectionnist gives you 4th level spells/potions and greater invisibility... as a start. You get plenty more to play around with to get those sneak attacks in?
The normal counter to this is that a rogue is much less likely to hit. Normally, a rogue who goes for TWF and/or natural attacks will be missing a lot due to the hit penalties. A normal finesse rogue at level 10 will have a +7 BAB, 22 dex with a belt of dexterity, and two +1 agile weapons. That is net +12 to hit with your primary attacks and +7 to hit with iterative attacks. Against a AC 24 target, you are only going to land about half of your attacks WITH a flanking bonus.
One of the huge advantages of the vivisectionists is access to the heroism extract +2 to hit on all attacks for 10 minutes/level and it stacks with almost everything. Add to that the dexterity mutagen(which also stacks really well) for another +2 to hit with a +2 to damage, and a straight vivisectionist has a +4 to hit advantage over a straight rogue. Easy access to natural attacks via feral mutagen is just gravy.
Finally, when you have a 26 dexterity with agile weapons or dervish dance, you are looking at +8 damage on every main hand attack that lands and +4 damage to every natural attack, even when you cannot sneak attack. The vivisectionist can do sneak attack damage, but they can do passable damage even when they cannot sneak attack.
So at the low end, the TWF route nets you a whopping .1 DPR. At the high end you gain 3 DPR, at the cost of 1 extra feat and 1 extra discovery.
And how would that calculation look with dual-wielded Elven Curve Blades? Just to get an idea? I'm bad at pure numbers. (would the two blades become +2 since you would not need that amulet?)
One of the huge advantages of the vivisectionists is access to the heroism extract +2 to hit on all attacks for 10 minutes/level and it stacks with almost everything. Add to that the dexterity mutagen(which also stacks really well) for another +2 to hit with a +2 to damage, and a straight vivisectionist has a +4 to hit advantage over a straight rogue. Easy access to natural attacks via feral mutagen is just gravy.
Finally, when you have a 26 dexterity with agile weapons or dervish dance, you are looking at +8 damage on every main hand attack that lands and +4 damage to every natural attack, even when you cannot sneak attack. The vivisectionist can do sneak attack damage, but they can do passable damage even when they cannot sneak attack.
hmm, but if you are not interested in those sneak attacks... wouldn't you be better off playing a bard? maybe an arcane duelist? you'd get arcane strike for free (I believe alchemists don't qualify?), if you add all the possible buffs you should be almost equal and you'd boost your party too with those songs.
I thought if you loose one of your class' main abilities (bombs) for something else (sneak attacks) those should be worth it? are bombs and senak attacks so negligible? :-(
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So at the low end, the TWF route nets you a whopping .1 DPR. At the high end you gain 3 DPR, at the cost of 1 extra feat and 1 extra discovery.And how would that calculation look with dual-wielded Elven Curve Blades? Just to get an idea? I'm bad at pure numbers. (would the two blades become +2 since you would not need that amulet?)
RAI, I believe TWF was intended for weapons that can be held in one hand each, as there are no calculations for 'off-hand 2-handed weapons' in regards to attack penalties or damage bonuses from strength.
If you wanted to go only by what is stated in the PRD, it looks like you would take a -4 penalty on each attack (assuming you have the TWF feat), since an Elven Curve Blade is not a light weapon. The 'off-hand' Elven Curve Blade would take only a 1/2 strength mod to damage (or DEX if you get the Agile weapon property).
I could be wrong in my interpretation, but that's what makes this concept stink to high heaven: there's WAY too much not touched upon in the rules, mechanically.
So at the low end, the TWF route nets you a whopping .1 DPR. At the high end you gain 3 DPR, at the cost of 1 extra feat and 1 extra discovery.And how would that calculation look with dual-wielded Elven Curve Blades? Just to get an idea? I'm bad at pure numbers. (would the two blades become +2 since you would not need that amulet?)
Not really, part of the trick to this build is taking advantage of the fact that a +1 amulet of might fists is only 5k gold and you don't have to make it +1 before adding other enhancements, thus you can have a +0 agile amulet of might fists for 5k.
2 +2 agile elven curved blades(18k each) = 36k.
1 +3 scimitar(18k) + 1 Agile Amulet of Might Fists(5k) = 23k
2 +1 agile elven curved blades(10k each) = 20k
For a level 10 character, getting 2 elven curved blades up to +2 and agile is possible, but it will each over half of your budget, and you still need a cloak of resist and armor.
My personal preference would be for only getting a +2 scimitar and spending more money on defense. I am only using the +3 scimitar in my comparisons because I am trying to make comparisons of items with equal value, and you can't get a +0 agile kukri. Getting a +3 scimitar at level 10 would probably force me to get rid of the celestial armor in favor of a mithril shirt.
hmm, but if you are not interested in those sneak attacks... wouldn't you be better off playing a bard? maybe an arcane duelist? you'd get arcane strike for free (I believe alchemists don't qualify?), if you add all the possible buffs you should be almost equal and you'd boost your party too with those songs.I thought if you loose one of your class' main abilities (bombs) for something else (sneak attacks) those should be worth it? are bombs and senak attacks so negligible? :-(
It isn't that I am not interested in the sneak attack damage. I am trying to strike a healthy balance between sneak and non-sneak attack damage.
The problem with focusing exclusively on sneak attack damage is that in real combat, you can't always get a flank. What if your melee friend has to retreat to heal or to go deal with the bad guy that is harassing cleric. You cannot count on always having a flank available, and you don't get improved invisibility until 9th level.
With a scimitar, you are doing 1d6 + 8(dex) + 6(power attack) damage with a 30% chance to crit if you get improved critical. That is an average of about 23 damage per attack. 4d6 sneak attack does an average of 14 damage. So on your primary attacks, 60% of your damage is normal damage and not dependent on flanking. A rogue has a really hard times putting out this kind of base damage.
With a more balanced build, you have the ability to charge in and do solid damage. The natural attacks adds a nice chunk of damage, but they are really just fluff, unless you get a flank or a surprise. When you get a flank, your damage skyrockets.
You want to be able to make the most of the sneak attack damage, but you don't want to be dependent on sneak attack to do damage.
So at the low end, the TWF route nets you a whopping .1 DPR. At the high end you gain 3 DPR, at the cost of 1 extra feat and 1 extra discovery.And how would that calculation look with dual-wielded Elven Curve Blades? Just to get an idea? I'm bad at pure numbers. (would the two blades become +2 since you would not need that amulet?)RAI, I believe TWF was intended for weapons that can be held in one hand each, as there are no calculations for 'off-hand 2-handed weapons' in regards to attack penalties or damage bonuses from strength.
If you wanted to go only by what is stated in the PRD, it looks like you would take a -4 penalty on each attack (assuming you have the TWF feat), since an Elven Curve Blade is not a light weapon. The 'off-hand' Elven Curve Blade would take only a 1/2 strength mod to damage (or DEX if you get the Agile weapon property).
I could be wrong in my interpretation, but that's what makes this concept stink to high heaven: there's WAY too much not touched upon in the rules, mechanically.
Yeah, I think I remember seeing rules for a marilith wielding 3 greatswords, but that may be from back in my 3.5 days. By all the RAW I can find, the best you could to is a falchion or elven curved blade with a kukri in your off-hand.
The other problem with that is that you would have to go strength. Agile weapons do not get the 1.5 damage modifier to dexterity the way a strength using two-handed weapon would. You could go for a 26 strength instead of dexterity, but you would need to spend a lot more on armor(in both profiency feats and gold) to get a decent AC.
Ok, crunched up an alternate build the Two-hander + an offhand weapon opens up one fun option.
Ranger 2/Vivisectionist 8
Str 15 + 1(level) + 4(belt) + 4(mutagen) +2(racial) = 26
Dex 12
Con 14 + 1(level) = 14
Int 14
Wis 10
Chr 8
Two Weapon Fighting, Power Attack, Improved Critical(Falchion)
2 vestigial arms
+2 Falchion(10k)
+2 Kukri(10k)
+2 Large Mithril Shield(5k)
+2 Mithril Breastplate(8k)
+2 Ring of Protection(8k)
+2 Cloak of Protection(4k)
+4 Belt of Might(16k)
29 AC with an extract of barkskin.
Fighting with 2 weapons AND a shield.
Normal damage - 37.3 DPR
Power Attack - 45.7 DPR
PA + Favored Enemy - 58.9 DPR
PA + FE + Sneak Attack - 76.4 DPR
Edit: just realized that this build doesn't quality for ITWF, you need to get TWF as a ranger bonus feat.