Guide to the Arcane Trickster


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Sovereign Court

If anyone is still updating this guide I found something interesting. This only works assuming you allow racial spell-like abilities to count as spellcasting as per the recent ruling.

The Lashunta race has both mage hand and a 2nd level spell as spell-like abilities and are a 11 point base race found in the Inner Sea Bestiary. This means you could get into the class at 5th level (due to the 4 point skill requirements).

Also, in reading the Arcane Trickster again it seems like it can actually stack with any spellcasting class. So while you might need arcane casting to qualify you could actually advance divine casting with it.


I come bearing terrible news. Paizo has officially destroyed the AT:

http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9qqm

I have played a Sorcerer/Ninja/AT to 17 and a Wizard/Rogue/AT to 14(Who I was able to use rebuild rules and early entry rules, as he was a tiefling, to just catch his capstone) . After this ruling I can say I can see no way either of them would have been viable. This makes me very sad as they ruined my favorite class(ish thing). I was planning my third one using early entry when I found this ruling. It saddens me beyond belief.

You could make a divine trickster pretty easily with the new rules, using a tiefling or aasmir and the two worlds magic trait. This new ruling makes me that much sadder now, as that would have been (probably not optimal) very interesting to try out.


One ray is still viable. Not totally destroyed in my opinion still eminently playable.


You would never keep up with other classes. If you abuse early entrance it may be better, but if you played with people who have any degree of system mastery you would be sorely outpaced, they already were outpaced, you'd just be a worm.


The new Inquisitor base class will probably fill the niche, though. 6-level spell casting, up to 9d6 sneak attack, lots of skill options.


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Still disagree - there is more to the Trickster than just multiple ray + sneak attack damage, and this is not compromised in the slightest. Playing the game is way different than maximisation.


It could still have its niche, but in PFS, modules or AP's it is not very viable. Don't get me wrong, they have LOTS of other cool tricks, but you'll play entire levels that are nothing but scouting and combat. Sometimes 2 or 3 levels in a row if playing an AP. If your playing a less combat heavy campaign then it'd still be a great class. It can definitely play in subterfuge or political focused games, but those tend to be the exception, not the norm.

Ya, the investigator looks ok, it just feels incomplete to me. Of course its early in playtest so it will probably come out ok by the time its done.


for the Expert

what are your opinions of Tiefling and Sylph Arcane Tricksters?

and what do you recommend as alternative schools to Admixture Evocation?

Teleportation Conjurer:

i think a teleportation conjurer sounds workable, mostly for the 1st level school power (swift action 5 foot jaunt), and for enhanced access to such things as Obscuring mist, Acid Arrow, and summons to help flank with

Tiefling and Sylph, i beleive are viable alternatives to the elf

Sylph:

Sylph offers the same Racial mods with the following differences

Darkvision instead of Low Light Vision

feat chains that grant at will extraordinary flight and save money spent on a necklace of adaption

alternate racials that grant enhanced mobility, weather reading, and a defense bonus against ranged attacks, which helps against archers

Tiefling:

the baseline Tiefling in the Advanced Race Guide offers the racial modifiers of the elf, but with a charisma penalty in place of a constitution penalty

tieflings can qualify for arcane tricksters 2 levels early thanks to the recent FAQ. but even if you don't follow the FAQ, it doesn't do much to hinder them

the Tiefling has a hit point per level more than the elf, a +1 to fortitude over the elf, but at the cost of -1 to all charisma based skills. the hit points help a lot

the Tiefling has a low level feat that provides a nifty defensive boost (+2 to natural armor)

tieflings have the option of trading a useless ability for a prehensile tail, which can not only be concealed under a long enough skirt, but has the advantage of stowing and retrieving consumable items as a swift action, which frees your move action for something more useful. such as stepping out of the way to use that potion or scroll, or holding a 3rd metamagic rod.

Fetchlings:

Fetchlings seem like a good race for Sorcerer ATs

50% harder to hit in dim lighting or darker

option of gaining displacement twice a day

darkvision and low light vision

a free casting of disguise self once a day


My Wizard/Rogue trickster was a tiefling. It worked out excellent. Tail + Accelerated Drinker + Potion of vanish = Win. while not quite as good as the ninja trick, is very useful. Plus it has so many other good uses, mostly grabbing rods. Darkness is nice too as it gives you a lot of bonuses and SA against many foes. If an Int caster don't skimp on knowledge's, knowing your foes weaknesses and strengths are invaluable.


With the FAQ regarding racial abilities, a lot changes. I don't feel like going through all of them, but tieflings, sylphs, and a few other races look more attractive now.

"Any other race your game allows should give you benefits that up your two most important stats, and help your magic and/or sneakiness. Ratfolk make excellent wizard ATs, for example, if you’re able to play one." -My super-awesome guide

It's easier to gain early entry, so if you have bonuses to your main stats (or at least no penalties) and can start the class early, you'll be stronger sooner. I'd totally play any of the races U.M. mentioned above.

I was disappointed about the ruling on sneak attack, but, as many will agree, sneak blasting is fun, but hardly the only thing you do as a trickster.

You have a number of ways to jack over your enemies, and it doesn't have to always be direct damage, either.

My favorite part is scouting/spying. It's intense and fun to sneak past all the obstacles and get intel that will help the party win, or sabotage a trap, etc.


How about a male Gevet? With just 2 levels of Rogue needed to achieve 2d6 sneak attack, and the Magical Knack trait, you can keep a full caster progression. I'm planning on running one soon to try it out.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/3rd-party-races/louis-porter-jr-design-inc

Gevet Game Stats:

Standard Racial Traits
•Ability Score Racial Traits: Gevet are bright and agile but have little empathy towards others. They gain +2 to Dexterity, +2 to Intelligence, and -2 to Wisdom.
•Size: Medium. As Medium creatures, gevet have no special bonuses or penalties due to size.
•Type: Outsider blood. Gevet count as both outsider (native) and human for any effect related to race.
•Base Speed: Gevet base land speed is 30 ft.

Defense Racial Traits
•Resistant to fire (Ex): Gevet gain fire resistance 5. This resistance stacks with any other form of fire resistance they may gain.

Offense Racial Traits
•Vicious (Male only): Male gevet count as having one additional rogue level when determining sneak attack damage. Thus a 4th level male gevet rogue would have +3d6 damage. A character that does not have sneak attack gains no benefits from this ability.

Senses Racial Traits
•Darkvision: Gevet have darkvision 60 ft. (the can see in the dark up to 60 feet.)


Sorry to spam but I can't edit my previous post to tack a question on. Do PC's with Outsider (Native) have prof. with all martial weapons, or is that just creatures with that type? I'd plan to go into Eldritch Knight after AT if that's the case.

Or I could stay in Wizard and get the admixture lvl 8 ability as a capstone - all incoming spell damage is fire. Gevets have Fire Resistance 5 that stacks with other resistance after all ;)


That sounds good. 2d6 for 2 levels gives you a lot of what you'd want from 3 levels, except you'll not get the saving throws and +1 BAB. If your GM's cool with it, go for it.

Not sure about your 2nd question. Anybody else know?


I got a rules call from Fans of d20pfsrd.com (on facebook) - not unless he had a racial HD. I'd rather have 1 lvl of fighter in that case so I'll just stick to my full caster plan! ;)


Very interesting and useful perspective.

What are your thoughts on the Halfling traits- Fleet of Foot or Swift as Shadows? Easier sniping seems great, but 30' movement will always be there.


Yeah, I'd take those.


This guide makes several references to Blur, concealment and sneak attacking. For example "Blur gives you concealment, though, so you can sneak attack from a distance". How does that work, exactly?

Attacking from concealment doesn't deny the target their Dex bonus the way invisibility does, as far as I can tell. Neither does sniping. So where does the sneak attack come from?


You can use concealment to make a stealth check. Make it, and you can snipe that round for SA damage. You have to make the check again at -20 to do it next round, but, unlike Invisibility, it doesn't go away once you've attacked. If you have some cover or something to hide behind at the end of you turn, you can try it again next round.

Blur is less useful once you have Greater Invisibility. Until then, it's good because regular Invisibility is gone once you attack. You'll eventually have a ring of Invisibility, but it's still the low-level spell. So, at lower levels, try Blur for combat, Invisibility for scouting.

Sorry it took me so long to see your post! I should probably explain that better in the guide.


Shameless Thread Necro Go!

So I am a long time DM and I have the opportunity to join a game as a player, with aspirations of going to 16-20 level to do the whole story arc.

I know it's highly unoriginal now but using your guide as a road map and making alterations of my own, I will be trying to play a Tiefling Rogue, Admixture Wizard, Sleepless Detective, Arcane Trickster.

I normally wouldn't play anything I wouldn't allow, a level dip in a PrC for optimization of another PrC seems cheesy to the max. But the GM has allowed it so I won't fight it.

Because of my suffering BAB and need to get the alertness feat I have opted to forego weapon finesse and arcane armor training. I understand that my survival to AT will be difficult at best.

My GM thinks because of the alertness feat tax, not choosing a familiar would cripple me. I don't expect you to see this but if you do, I'd like to get your opinion on the matter. I understand I could get a scorpion and hide it for an init. bonus and the feat I need.

Some notes: following alternate racial rules, I got the prehensile tail feature, I lost my darkness 1/day, but gained detect evil 3/day and the see in darkness ability.

my stats (after racials) are-

Str- 11
Dex- 20
Con- 15
Int- 20
Wis- 10
Cha- 9

He told me he tries to keep close to the character wealth table, knowing I will need a ring of invisibility, likely a ring of evasion and I want a ring of sustenance, I am favoring the bonded ring.

I hate scribing scroll, I know I suck, but I got the approval to get the PFS swap and get spell focus (Evocation) in it's place.

My feat progression I am considering is:

1. Point Blank Shot
3. Precise Shot
5. Alertness*
7. Imp. Init.
9. Great Fort.
11. Spell Pen.
13. G. Spell Pen.
15. G. Spell Focus (Evo)

Thoughts and opinions welcomed


Point Blank Shot, Precise shot, and Weapon Focus (Ray)- Even ranged touch attacks miss. The question is, how often do they miss by exactly 1 or 2? How often do you use them? Is it worth two or three feats? Considering all the feats that will do far more for you to keep you alive and contributing, the answer is no. Big creatures have horrible touch ACs as a general rule, and even at a minus, you can usually hit. It isn’t like the old days, when a miss could hurt your allies. You got, or will get a belt, right?

Better to miss with a ray, than hit and watch it not work (Spell Penetration), or fail a fort save (Greater Fortitude), or get slaughtered because you thought you’d make it to 16th level without any armor (Arcane Armor Training). Sneak blasting is a fun feature of your character, but it’s not your raison d'être. It’s not that great.

I don't see any need for Alertness. Take Toughness, instead. Scouts need hit points worthy of their role.

Since you're starting at high level, ignore AAT. That's for surviving low level play, until you have +8 bracers.

Get a wand of True Strike and use it when you have the time. That won't be often, but it helps a lot when you can.

It's better to have Spell Penetration so that when you hit, the spell actually works.

JMO.


Alertness is required for the sleepless detective PrC or I wouldn't bother.

Also we just hit level 2, so I need to choose familiar or ring before next sesh. (2 weeks out.)

I'm hoping the full caster can mitigate some need for low level survival with buffs, shes using a very crowd control themed spell list.

Point blank shot was insanely useful, however I could forgo precise shot for weapon finesse as I did have to flank off Butch (the strong and fair) our trusty sword and board fighter once and it was pretty much worthless aside from giving him a +2 to hit...

I didn't manage to take any damage yet (except non-lethal from a fall) within these last two sesh. so that accounts for something right?

Cheers!


So... Rogue/Arcanist -> Arcane Trickster. How good is it?


Pip-Squeak wrote:

Alertness is required for the sleepless detective PrC or I wouldn't bother.

Also we just hit level 2, so I need to choose familiar or ring before next sesh. (2 weeks out.)

I'm hoping the full caster can mitigate some need for low level survival with buffs, shes using a very crowd control themed spell list.

Point blank shot was insanely useful, however I could forgo precise shot for weapon finesse as I did have to flank off Butch (the strong and fair) our trusty sword and board fighter once and it was pretty much worthless aside from giving him a +2 to hit...

I didn't manage to take any damage yet (except non-lethal from a fall) within these last two sesh. so that accounts for something right?

Cheers!

Alertness the familiar grants you doesn't actually grant you the feat, so it technically wouldn't count as a prerequisite. If your GM will allow it to though take the familiar in a heartbeat, the greensting scorpion is always good.

I found point blank and precise shot extremely useful to both my tricksters. I use weapon finesse with the sorcerer/ninja one and he ended up dying. No thanks! Don't want to be that close to in the mix of things. Other peoples mileage may vary on that, but if I made another one I still wouldn't use weapon finesse again. If your GM allows retraining you can probably retrain point blank and precise at pretty high level when you can pretty much always hit touch, but its worth having through the low and mid levels.

I wouldn't bother with arcane armor training. My level 13 PFS AT has an AC of just 20. Not being able to be targeted is better than AC. I highly recommend Skill Focus Stealth - Dampen Presence - Hellcats Stealth.

Ventnor wrote:
So... Rogue/Arcanist -> Arcane Trickster. How good is it?

Probably not as good as you'd think. Your exploit pool doesn't increase. You have less spells and slower progression than a wizard, already being several levels behind in casting, you don't need that.


Under a bleeding Sun that's not actually correct. It does grant you the feat, it's just limited as it says.


Just a quick note: Snakebite Striker gives you a +1d6 SA on lvl1, as well as +1BAB, so you can enter the class at 5 pretty handily now, with only 2 lost caster levels.


If I wasn't the party skills monkey, I'd have considered alternatives for the first 1d6 SA.

That said I have already run into a few traps. I think the ability to deal with magical traps will be a boon worthy of the one dip in rogue.

Also I'm banking on the skills boost to make a difference that will keep me alive early on.

I'm paranoid, I carry multiple spell componet pouches, I intend on getting a backup spell book, and I worried a familiar will be more vulnerable than a ring. I understand the ring can be sundered or stolen just as easily, but here's the other problem: The character doesn't feel like a person who would have "a pet."

To some that may be a weak reason to gimp myself, I feel your pain trust me.

So: A. Does the Alertness feat granted by the Familiar work in the instance of qualifying for a PrC?

B. If A = Yes, the familiar will never effectively be over level 4 on the chart, How scared should I be regarding its safety/survival?


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Quote:
Alertness (Ex): While a familiar is within arm's reach, the master gains the Alertness feat.

You gain the feat -- just as if a magic item gave it to you. The issue is when the familiar is more than an arm's reach away you lose the feat again.

Now fortunately the general rules for prestige classes say that you don't lose your abilities only that you can't level in that class again until you meet the prerequisites again (specific classes can and will differ).

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Society Subscriber

using a Tiefling as base for the sla requirement:

Rogue 1/Snakebite Striker 1/Voide Elementalist 2/Arcane Trickster.

This way you actually are full casterlevel (with magical knack) and you'll only be 1 spelllevel behind a normal wizard (so 1 when he can cast 2, 2 when he can cast 3) and the void school ability spot weakness (however it's called) goes off casterlevel instead of wizard level. But yes, compared to rogue 3/wizard 1 you lost 10 skill points.

A: no clue really. Probably.

B: As for familiar safekeeping: Familiar Satchel.
There's also the more expensive option of Pathfinder Pouch with a bottle of air (provided the familiar weighs 8 lbs or less).


Pathfinder Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I prefer the arcane bonded ring because you can relatively easily use slight of hand to keep it from being found if you are searched. Wear gloves so that normally people can't see the rings on your hands and make sure it is plural so even if they suspect a ring they aren't sure which one.

There is disagreement on if the arcane bonded ring is (Ex) or (Su), if your GM agrees it is (Ex) then as an Arcane Trickster you should never enchant it. As (Ex) it wouldn't radiate magic unless you enchanted it. It shouldn't take up an item slot that way either. It would be like the divine focus, a focus used to cast spells and call in for that special spell but not magical on it's own.


Abraham spalding wrote:
Quote:
Alertness (Ex): While a familiar is within arm's reach, the master gains the Alertness feat.

You gain the feat -- just as if a magic item gave it to you. The issue is when the familiar is more than an arm's reach away you lose the feat again.

Now fortunately the general rules for prestige classes say that you don't lose your abilities only that you can't level in that class again until you meet the prerequisites again (specific classes can and will differ).

This helps me a great deal thank you!

Damanta, My build has me as a full caster with magical knack already, I like the flow of your build though may consider something similar in the future or for an npc in one of my games.

BretI, I hadn't considered that so I will have to ask, but right now we are discussing a custom familiar option to fit the character's story. I'll update you all again if/when I actually reach trickster.

Scarab Sages

Necroposticon!

So with Snakebite Striker brawler, it's possible to Brawler 1/Rogue 1/ Wizard 2, and enter AT at 5th level, saving you a caster level without using PrCs.

I'm considering this for a touch-attack sneak attacker, but I'm wondering if a single class rogue may end up be better for that using major magic and the elf FCB.


Imbicatus wrote:

Necroposticon!

So with Snakebite Striker brawler, it's possible to Brawler 1/Rogue 1/ Wizard 2, and enter AT at 5th level, saving you a caster level without using PrCs.

Wouldn't you need to be a 3rd level wizard, entering at 6th? Unless you're abusing SLAs?

That said, snakebite striker looks like a really attractive alternative to rogue at first level. At first level you're trading 4 skill points and trapfinding for 2 hp, +2 Fort, Improved Unarmed Strike and +1 BAB. That looks pretty attractive! Going forward, you'll give up a rogue talent and access to Evasion -- which hurts -- but OTOH you'll get into AT a level early, meaning better spellcasting for the rest of your career. Why would you not do this?

Expert, would you consider adding this to the Guide?

Doug M.

Silver Crusade

If you were building an arcane trickster, and wanted to use the Evangelist prestige class to have higher BAB and other nice bonuses instead of straight AT progression, which deity would you choose?

I am thinking Pharasma would be a good one, because she is neutral, and the +2 sacred bonus to ATK with daggers is really nice.

Silver Crusade RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

With Accomplished Sneak Attacker an option, there's no longer a need to take that extra level of Brawler to get this done.


what do you think to use the new "Warlock" archetype for your spellcasting class?

It's only 6 level spells, but you can throw bolts... sneaked bolts too, so you can avoid to prepare too many rays and use your spells for defense or field control.
Bolts can be a melee weapon too if you need.


Of course there is also the the Eldritch Scoundrel now as well, single class into Arcane trickster with just one class.

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Darche Schneider wrote:
Of course there is also the the Eldritch Scoundrel now as well, single class into Arcane trickster with just one class.

Although it takes the same number of levels as other options, and has a worse spell progression.


Takes exactly 4 rogue levels to become an arcane trickster with Eldritch scoundrel. Only other one that can get there as fast is a rogue 1/wizard 3, and then you give up 1 caster level.

Once you get out of Arcane trickster the problem then becomes do you go wizard or rogue? If you go rogue You lose more caster levels. If you go wizard you don't get the sneak attacks and skills and the like.

For me, I'd want to play something that a bit more of a marriage between the rogue/wizard, even if it has worse spell progression. I know for others they want a wizard that does more damage.


Has anyone tried building an arcane Trickster that progresses divine spellcasting?
Or even an AT that progresses mystic theurge?


I had laid out an Oracle/Ninja Arcane Trickster when SLAs qualified for prestiege classes.

It used Waves Oracle + Water Sight and obscuring mist to fling shuriken out of the mist with flurry of stars, rapid shot and two weapon fighting.

The low BAB was problematic but it was hilarious to imagine. I tried using Evangelist to help cover the Arcane Trickers Chasis but losing another BAB at the first level of Evangelist made it not catch up in BAB until level 9 and not overtake until level 13.

Link

(Not much noted, I think I erased further details after the SLA change)


Darche Schneider wrote:
Takes exactly 4 rogue levels to become an arcane trickster with Eldritch scoundrel. Only other one that can get there as fast is a rogue 1/wizard 3, and then you give up 1 caster level.

Snakebite Striker 1/Wizard 3 with accomplished sneak attacker also works.

What you do afterwards is wizard, surely.

Silver Crusade RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

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Darche Schneider wrote:
Takes exactly 4 rogue levels to become an arcane trickster with Eldritch scoundrel. Only other one that can get there as fast is a rogue 1/wizard 3, and then you give up 1 caster level.

At 12th level, I could have the casting ability of a 12th level Magus, or an 11th level Wizard, but from the Wizard spell list?

Hmmm, 4th level spells, or 6th level spells? I wonder which one I'll choose.

Capping out at 6th or 9th level spells? Also a difficult choice.

As for losing a caster level, if only there was a trait that would raise my caster level.

Silver Crusade RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

Ellioti wrote:
Has anyone tried building an arcane Trickster that progresses divine spellcasting?

RAW clearly permits this.

Ellioti wrote:
Or even an AT that progresses mystic theurge?

Are you meaning that once you have a MT level, that taking AT levels would raise your "MT caster level" thus raising both your divine and arcane caster levels? That won't work. You don't really have a MT caster level for the AT to raise, you'd have say a Cleric and a Wizard caster level, only one of which can be raised by act AT level gain.


I think history has spanked Abraham Spalding really hard.

Thank you all for your continued study.


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Zahir ibn Mahmoud ibn Jothan wrote:
Ellioti wrote:
Has anyone tried building an arcane Trickster that progresses divine spellcasting?

RAW clearly permits this.

Ellioti wrote:
Or even an AT that progresses mystic theurge?
Are you meaning that once you have a MT level, that taking AT levels would raise your "MT caster level" thus raising both your divine and arcane caster levels? That won't work. You don't really have a MT caster level for the AT to raise, you'd have say a Cleric and a Wizard caster level, only one of which can be raised by act AT level gain.

It's an arcane class, only. Arcane Trickster.

That's the only way it's effective. The only thing a divine class could do is heal your allies.

The AT isn't about that. It uses arcane magic to be invisible, and cast wizard spells that do things clerics can't.


^. . . And cast Wizard spells that do things that Rogues/Ninjas/Slayers can't. (Or now, with the Thought Thief Prestige Archetype, cast Psychic or Psychic Bloodline Sorcerer spells for this purpose.)

Hey, you're still here! Welcome back!


Yes! I usually post under whatever alias I'm playing in games on here atm, but I've been here pretty much every day.

I love PF1, and don't want to even try PF2.


Two reflections on the guide (which I note is updated to 2017):

* While dwarves are not an ideal race for ATs, I'd never consider them red for the simple reason that dwarves are not bad at anything they put their minds to that doesn't require charisma. I.e., I'd rather be a dwarf wizard than a gnome wizard solely for the survivability factor in save-or-suck rocket-tag fests (since Glory of Old and Steel Soul are there).

* Most AT building advice focuses on acquiring as much caster crunch as possible; I'd like to suggest that it should not be considered automatically suboptimal to eschew this mentality. For instance, is a rogue1/AT10/WizardX (with a feat for Accomplished Sneak Attacker) really getting his money's worth out of the PrC at the cost of -1 casting levels and minus eight or so hitpoints (lost FCB from taking PrC levels rather than favored class levels)? --The problem is that the AT PrC doesn't enhance a caster class so much as it enhances a martial class. I.e., it might make you a slightly better caster, but it'll definitely make you a better rogue. So, try going into AT with a rogue's mentality rather than a caster's mentality:

01 uRogue1
02 wizard1
03 uRogue2
04 uRogue3
05 uRogue4
06 wizard2
07 wizard3
08 ATrickster1 ...etc.

Why would you do this? You might if your concept is of a rogue. I.e., you want Uncanny Dodge (a crucial component of your defense if you're a min/maxed dexterity build). You want Debilitating Injury. You want the 18 extra skillpoints. You want the two rogue talents and the extra feat saved by not having to take Accomplished Sneak Attacker. You want the free dex-to-damage without the annoyance of placing Agile on one or more weapons.

Are you stronger than a straight-classed fog wizard? Hell no. Are you stronger than a straight-classed rogue with Minor and Major Magic talents? Hell yes.


I think you're somewhat under-rating what you could do with going Arcane Trickster as a full caster (or almost full caster). That said:

Thinking along the same lines, if you were to combine Thug Rogue (3 or 4 levels) and Psychic(*) with the Thought Thief prestige archetype, you might be able to become a serious debilitating/controlling Rogue. I'll have to give this some more thought to figure out how well this could actually work.

(*)Or Psychic Bloodline Sorcerer, but I wouldn't recommend that.


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