Magic Shuriken pricing


Rules Questions

The Exchange

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Shuriken are ammunition, for drawing they're a free action, and when they miss they have a 50% chance of breaking.

But when you add the returning property to them, they come back either way, right? instead of breaking?

the table on p 468 lists the price for 50 bolts, arrows or bullets. It's silent on shuriken.
How would creating magic shuriken would work? like creating masterwork shuriken: +2000 for a set of 5, 8,301 for a set of 5 +1 returning shuriken?

Or is a mwk shuriken 7gp, Individual ammunition says its +6gp , though that seems derived by dividing the +300 cost of mwk by 50, as they're sold in braces of 50 in the magic item section.
Shuriken are 1gp/5. ( so 6.2 gp? ) is a +1 shuriken then 2,006.2gp? Or 2,301 for 5? Or 2,310 for 50?

Just checking, since they're the only thrown weapon that's treated as ammunition.


The return rules don't trump the breaking rules by raw. It would seem that if the shuriken does not break it would return if going by the current ruleset.


Yeah, not so much. Treat shurikens as ammo. It would be waste to put returning on them since it would not negate the ammo being destroyed. In other words, magic arrows are consumed when they hit the target so shurikens would as well. I don't think returning would negate the break chance for missing either. I suppose you could convince your DM that returning negates that chance, but I would rule that it only returns those shurikens which missed and did not break. So, you would get back 50% of your missed shurikens.

In other words, I don't think the returning property bypasses those things which causes ammunition to be destroyed after use such as bouncing off armor, getting damaged after colliding with objects which are not the target (i.e. walls).

[Edit]Ninja'd[/edit]


If you aren't in PFS, see if you can implement durable ammunition as a house rule. Instead of assigning it a +n equivalency, make them enchant it to at least +1 to satisfy the normal requirements for weapon properties, then instead of making 50 of them, make 1. Add returning and you're golden.

The Exchange

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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Blah, yeah, found this thread after I posted:

http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz2d6r?Magical-Shurikan-Price-too-cheap

Skr and bulman both weigh in, but neither to fix shuriken ( aside from house ruling them to be individually enchantable )

Definitely sours any possible shuriken focused monk. Thanks


Even if ammo doesn't break, the magic is discharged and it becomes normal ammo. So upon hitting or missing, your "returning" shuriken will no longer be "returning" and so won't return anyway.

The Exchange

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Uh no, if it misses, it's still magic ammo. Same way you could recover 50% of +1 flaming arrows if they didn't break after a combat.


Seraphimpunk wrote:
Uh no, if it misses, it's still magic ammo. Same way you could recover 50% of +1 flaming arrows if they didn't break after a combat.

I went back and reread the rules, and by RAW the only reference to losing magic on use was on durable ammo. So it appears you are correct. However all ammunition breaks on hitting, and 50% of your ammo breaks on missing. So if you're hitting even only 50% of your time, your magical ammo has a 1 in 4 chance of surviving an attack. If you're hitting 80% of the time, then 1 in 10 will survive.

Durable arrows by RAW lose magic upon resolving the attack, hit or miss.


Tell me adamantine shuriken don't break... that would be a little ridiculous.


By some mysterious method, even adamantine shuriken break. Yes, you could be in a room made of sponge cake and miss your opponent and they can still mysteriously break by RAW. Maybe only the tips are adamantine or something; that's how it'd be justified for arrows.


>makes vomiting noises<

Sigh. Silly @ best...


Alitan wrote:
Tell me adamantine shuriken don't break... that would be a little ridiculous.

Unless a special material specifically says "Ammunition made from this material do not break", then it breaks. Even adamantine ammo.

The Exchange

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Maybe such a rule needs to be added. There can be change.
I can understand mundane arrows breaking the shaft, but magic arrows? Adamantine shuriken?

Devs were trying out something cool for shuriken, treating them like ammo. They should revisit their test and decide whether it was a success. :p


This is one of those cases where the pursuit of game balance and simplicity of rules trumps logic or common sense.

The idea is that if you allow ammunition to be enchanted and unbreakable, then it is essentially a cheap way to using magic in your fights.

There could be a way to balance the cost of unbreakable magic ammunition against regular magic items prices, but I'm sure the developers looked at it and said "bah... let 'em buy magic weapons instead, it's easier and doesn't need all the special rules..."


Sense is never common.

Balance and simplicity never trump logic.

This is one of those cases that illustrate why I don't play PFSOP any longer...

Grand Lodge

I tend to imagine thrown shuriken "destroyed" by simply being in a state that make them no longer effective as weapons. You can always collect the shuriken afterwards. There are no rules that state it's components simply cease to exist after use. For the magic being one time use, it is best seen as using less magical energy during crafting, thus the reduced cost, and time to craft. A "throw away" magic item, like potions, or feather tokens.

Silver Crusade

So, one of the original questions never seems to have been answered...are magic shuriken priced like ammo, in sets of 50?


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Our group takes a more logical tact. Arrows are recoverable if they hit, and have a break/loss chance if they miss. In the real world thats what happends...you shoot a deer the arrow is most likely fine for continued use,you miss and it hits a rock or tree and it could easily be ruined, or goes into high grass and is lost. I know its functionally not a lot different, but it passes the logic test with flying colors.

Also a rank in fletcher skill will let you fix the ones you break..assuming they arent magical.

For Shuriken I would think it would be a similar result, the thing is fine if you hit the target with it, but if you miss a rack the thing off a wall, your going to have to straigten it out a bit and hone some edges to get it to fly straight again.

Either way with some simple tools ammo can be repaired by a campfire.


Zearro wrote:
So, one of the original questions never seems to have been answered...are magic shuriken priced like ammo, in sets of 50?

I think its uncertain, but it would be really stupid expensive to rule otherwise. If they are consumable you cant then charge the same price for lots of 5 that arrows charge for lots of 50.


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My ruling would be that returning shuriken, which are not unreasonable in concept, should be charged as single weapons, the same way a returning dagger would be. Yes, this makes full flurry with returning shuriken prohibitively expensive, but so is a full attack with thrown daggers.


Unless I am missing something Shuriken are NOT ammunition. They are a light thrown weapon.

Shuriken: A shuriken is a small piece of metal with
sharpened edges, designed for throwing. A shuriken can’t
be used as a melee weapon. Although they are thrown
weapons, shuriken are treated as ammunition for the
purposes of drawing them, crafting masterwork or
otherwise special versions of them, and what happens to
them after they are thrown.

Ammunition: Projectile weapons use ammunition:
arrows (for bows), bolts (for crossbows), darts (for
blowguns), or sling bullets (for slings and half ling
sling staves). When using a bow, a character can draw
ammunition as a free action; crossbows and slings require
an action for reloading (as noted in their descriptions).
Generally speaking, ammunition that hits its target is
destroyed or rendered useless, while ammunition that
misses has a 50% chance of being destroyed or lost.
Although they are thrown weapons, shuriken are treated
as ammunition for the purposes of drawing them, crafting
masterwork or otherwise special versions of them (see
Masterwork Weapons on page 149), and what happens to
them after they are thrown.

I had to edit my post on further investigation. Here are the two definitions.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Wands of magic weapon, wepaons against evil, greater magic weapon.
Also since it´s a monk weapon if i remember correctly, it gets the boni from ki strike stuff, counting as magical and such.

Anyway, in Pathfinder Shuriken are much better on ninjas, especially on ifrit ninjas with firesight and smokebombs, as well as some ranged combat feats.


James Thomsen 568 wrote:

Unless I am missing something Shuriken are NOT ammunition. They are a light thrown weapon.

Shuriken: A shuriken is a small piece of metal with
sharpened edges, designed for throwing. A shuriken can’t
be used as a melee weapon. Although they are thrown
weapons, shuriken are treated as ammunition for the
purposes of drawing them, crafting masterwork or
otherwise special versions of them, and what happens to
them after they are thrown.

Ammunition: Projectile weapons use ammunition:
arrows (for bows), bolts (for crossbows), darts (for
blowguns), or sling bullets (for slings and half ling
sling staves). When using a bow, a character can draw
ammunition as a free action; crossbows and slings require
an action for reloading (as noted in their descriptions).
Generally speaking, ammunition that hits its target is
destroyed or rendered useless, while ammunition that
misses has a 50% chance of being destroyed or lost.
Although they are thrown weapons, shuriken are treated
as ammunition for the purposes of drawing them, crafting
masterwork or otherwise special versions of them (see
Masterwork Weapons on page 149), and what happens to
them after they are thrown.

I had to edit my post on further investigation. Here are the two definitions.

They're not ammunition, but they're mechanically treated as if they were for the purpose of all things applicable. It's a lot easier to say they're just ammunition with no launcher than to go through the effort of saying that they're "thrown weapons that count as if they were ammunition for the purpose of drawing them, crafting masterwork or otherwise special versions of them, and what happens to them after they are thrown." It's right there in both rules quotes you yourself provided. This isn't a significant distinction regarding the discussion at hand; it's merely pedantic.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Uh i forgot abundant ammunition!
In a homebrew you could probably always create a container for shurikens with that on it and magic weapon or greater magic weapon.
In PFS of course not.


Shuriken wrote:

SRD

Ammunition (Thrown): Shuriken
A shuriken is a small piece of metal with sharpened edges, designed for throwing.
Benefit: Although they are thrown weapons, shuriken are treated as ammunition for the purposes of drawing them, crafting masterwork or otherwise special versions of them, and what happens to them after they are thrown.
Drawback: A shuriken can't be used as a melee weapon.
Traits: ammunition, monk

While you pay 1 gp to buy 5, you pay +6 gp each for masterwork because it is treated as ammo. Likewise, pay +40 gp for the +1 enhancement because that is a special versions. A +1 Shuriken costs 46.2 gp. Table:

+1 .. 46.2
+2 .. 166.2
+3 .. 366.2
+4 .. 646.2
+5 .. 1006.2
+6 .. 1446.2
+7 .. 1966.2
+8 .. 2566.2
+9 .. 3246.2
+10 .. 4006.2

/cevah

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